pkt77242
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A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)
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Irishbounty28
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phillyirish
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Well, I mean... thats on you. Don't know how you can rationally come up with idea that crastor was giving the babies to the others so they can give them to the faceless men.
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The idea was that Craster wouldn't know what the Others did after he sacrificed his children to them... But really it was just because of their black garb. Didn't remember anything like that last scene from the books, so it was more of "fun speculation." My bad bro.
IrishinTN
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And this was spurred on by his sister in the midst of a punishable crime. Not saying he should have done it for sure. It was deplorable. But Cersei has engineered him from the get-go.
NoJusticeNoPeace
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The Night's King reveal was crazy and I'm not sure how I feel about such a major plot move beating the books to the punch.
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Oh wowwwwww the Night's King? Didn't even think about that. That last scene felt like one of the prologue chapters from the books.
That whole episode felt like a big "F-U" to book readers. With Bran, Hodor, Summer and the Reeds being captured, and the "Jon Snow vs. the Mutineers" story being created, the whole episode kind of threw things into upheaval. My mind was pretty blown, especially when you consider that Jon Snow will see Bran again, unless he and the Reeds sneak away during the assault on Craster's (which now that I type it seems like the most likely outcome).
That whole episode felt like a big "F-U" to book readers. With Bran, Hodor, Summer and the Reeds being captured, and the "Jon Snow vs. the Mutineers" story being created, the whole episode kind of threw things into upheaval. My mind was pretty blown, especially when you consider that Jon Snow will see Bran again, unless he and the Reeds sneak away during the assault on Craster's (which now that I type it seems like the most likely outcome).
mgriff
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The HBO viewers guide stated that the Other at the end was indeed the Night's King. It has since been changed today, so I assume someone is unemployed. I can't get the pic from imgur because I'm at work and it's blocked, but go to r/asoiaf and it's the top post.
So, there were 13 Others in that scene to include the Night's King. Pretty intense foreshadowing and it's caused quite a stir amongst book readers. It appears like some theories went from tinfoil to Valyrian steel. I've been on reddit and westeros.org all morning reading and sharing ideas and trying to find nuggets in the scenes that may have been missed. Nine ice shards on the altar, and the altar makes ten. Thirteen of the (leadership?) caste of the Others, some looking like they could be female. They wore BLACK armor, so did the NW seal the alliances with marriages? The early LCs?
I'll provide the screens from the show and the HBO viewer's guide after work if they still aren't posted.
Discuss.
So, there were 13 Others in that scene to include the Night's King. Pretty intense foreshadowing and it's caused quite a stir amongst book readers. It appears like some theories went from tinfoil to Valyrian steel. I've been on reddit and westeros.org all morning reading and sharing ideas and trying to find nuggets in the scenes that may have been missed. Nine ice shards on the altar, and the altar makes ten. Thirteen of the (leadership?) caste of the Others, some looking like they could be female. They wore BLACK armor, so did the NW seal the alliances with marriages? The early LCs?
I'll provide the screens from the show and the HBO viewer's guide after work if they still aren't posted.
Discuss.
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Sounds like this theory is on to something, considering the reveal of the Night's King and the potential reasoning for accepted sacrifices and their black wardrobe.
NoJusticeNoPeace
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I just hope Bran and Jon don't meet. I don't like that Jon knows in the first place. What, is he going to be like, "Yeah my crippled little brother is up in an extremely dangerous place, but I'll ignore that to get elected Lord Commander!"
Shit, just got the idea: What if there is no fake Arya and this is what Jon gets Caesar'd over? Going after a different sibling in another way?
Shit, just got the idea: What if there is no fake Arya and this is what Jon gets Caesar'd over? Going after a different sibling in another way?
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This makes sense if you consider that Lorch "befriending" Jon Snow and traveling to Craster's with him is a precursor to betrayal. It appears that the reasoning for betrayal could be "went for Bran rather than helped his brothers" or something of the sort.
mgriff
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The episode is called "Oathkeeper." They usually have two or three meanings to the episodes, the obvious and then others you have to think about. Brienne is the obvious one, but many theories suggest that when the Pact was made with the WW, that it was sealed with marriages. Now the NW has lost it's purpose, there is no Stark in Winterfell, and the WW are marching because the ancient pact was broken. Tinfoil, I know, but that was really significant when coupled with the guide saying it was the Night's King.
NoJusticeNoPeace
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I'm not sure where they are going with Locke but I like the developments at the Wall. I'm someone who prefers things to stay the way they are in the books, but it's all interesting. That speech is going to be the perfect counter next year when Jon is like, "Let's go get Arya/Bran" and the wildlings go "Hell yeah" but Bowen and his friends Caesar Jon.
mgriff
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That seems to be a theory. Coldhands could show up and convince Jon to let Bran go North, especially if it's his Uncle Benjen.
Or Daario.So The Last Hero also had thirteen companions. I'm utterly obsessed with the WW reveal last night. I was shocked. My jaw was on the floor.
gkIrish
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Ya I totally was thinking the whole time, did I miss all of this in the books?
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I'm hoping that was their one "got ya!" moment of this season. I was shocked and awed, as I'm sure was the intent with the reveal, but I'm gonna be bummed if more major plot lines are opened up so early in the show that haven't even been in writing yet.
I would love to hear the show writers explain why they included the Night's King already, as that must've been one of the end-game plot threads that Martin filled them in on.
Jon Snow being revived by the Kiss of Fire and then becoming the Night's king would certainly tie Ice and Fire together nicely, and seems 100% plausible now.
I would love to hear the show writers explain why they included the Night's King already, as that must've been one of the end-game plot threads that Martin filled them in on.
Jon Snow being revived by the Kiss of Fire and then becoming the Night's king would certainly tie Ice and Fire together nicely, and seems 100% plausible now.
Corry
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I was thinking the same thing. I knew I smoked a lot of pot in formative years, but cheese and rice, to forget something this huge would have been tragic. It's not like its your anniversary or something. This is the Game of Thrones.
wizards8507
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What a steaming pile of bullshit. I know that the books and the show are distinct stories and that there will be changes, but holy crap, you bust out the Night's King in the middle of Season 4? I'm fine with the books being the books and the show being the show, but I think it's pretty messed up for the show to be openly spoilery for books that haven't been written/published yet.
Next Episode: HBO reveals that dragons can only be ridden by Lannister dwarves and bastards from the North and that Benjen Stark and Brynden Tully are the same person.
Next Episode: HBO reveals that dragons can only be ridden by Lannister dwarves and bastards from the North and that Benjen Stark and Brynden Tully are the same person.
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Whatever that scene was, we should at least get the answer in the Winds of Winter, rather than having to wait for all answers in aDoS, right?
Hasn't the teaser for tWoW always been that "it will go further north than the books have taken us yet" ? That would validate some of the theories that the palace behind the ice altar and the Others is the Land of Always Winter. Gives me hope that at least the motivation of the Others will be answered in tWoW, rather than everything being saved for the final book.
Hasn't the teaser for tWoW always been that "it will go further north than the books have taken us yet" ? That would validate some of the theories that the palace behind the ice altar and the Others is the Land of Always Winter. Gives me hope that at least the motivation of the Others will be answered in tWoW, rather than everything being saved for the final book.
the link that IrishLion provided on prior page is fascinating.
caution: read it only if you want to see what in my view is the best theory on the entire series and how it all ends/what it all means.
blew me away.
this is what happens when a story takes 25 years to write.
caution: read it only if you want to see what in my view is the best theory on the entire series and how it all ends/what it all means.
blew me away.
this is what happens when a story takes 25 years to write.
NDWorld247
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I bought book one yesterday. I'm a couple hundred pages in and thoroughly enjoying it. I don't mind reading about things I've already watched because season one was so long ago and the book is giving me a better understanding and appreciation for the story. My goal is to spread the books out and finish by the end of the summer (i.e. neglecting my children while at the beach and sticking my head in the book).
But I have one complaint so far with the book vs. show and that's the age of some of the main characters and how they're portrayed as older in the show. Jon Snow was 14 and Daenerys was 13 in season one? Did they tell us this in season one or did they ignore their ages and let you come to your own conclusions? I can't remember. I always thought they were at least in their older teens.
Also, how much time has passed in months/years since the beginning of the story and now?
But I have one complaint so far with the book vs. show and that's the age of some of the main characters and how they're portrayed as older in the show. Jon Snow was 14 and Daenerys was 13 in season one? Did they tell us this in season one or did they ignore their ages and let you come to your own conclusions? I can't remember. I always thought they were at least in their older teens.
Also, how much time has passed in months/years since the beginning of the story and now?
Emcee77
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The producers explained why they aged the younger characters a bit. Basically, Martin was coming from a historical perspective; in the Middle Ages, kids grew up faster and teenagers were considered "adults," and they often figured into history as such; so, similarly, they figure prominently into the plots of Martin's books as adults would. But the producers felt that a young kid leading an army, as Robb does, for example, would look ridiculous onscreen, so they decided to make the younger characters a bit older so as not to shock the viewer so much.
I think that's something that it is really important for screen adapters to be sensitive to, actually. I remember reading a movie review of the Time Traveler's Wife, which I didn't see and didn't read (chick lit and rom com stuff, right?), but it interested me that the reviewer said that the book was fascinating, involving as it does a man who travels through time unpredictably such that his wife sometimes must love her husband as such although he inhabits the body of a child, and that the product in fiction is a beautiful expression of loving someone despite physical or superficial impediments, but in film seems simply creepy and pedophilic.
I think of this often when people get mad about small differences between a book and a screen adaptation, or even large differences ... those differences often exist because if the screen adapters literally depicted what the book describes, it would look ridiculous or be impossible to understand. I guess I wish more people would keep that in mind, rather than shrilly decrying every difference between A Song of Ice and Fire, the books, and Game of Thrones, the tv series. (Btw, that's not directed at you at all, NDWorld247.)
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ClausentoTate
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The very first episode of the series had Dany/Drago's wedding night. If she was portrayed as 13 I doubt people would have been ok with that, even if it was only implied that they had consummated the relationship.
The only age discrepancy I've noticed and not been ok with so far has been Tommen. He's way to old, right? I'm not misremembering am I? I really thought he was closer to 8 than to 14-15 like he is in the show. His relationship with Margaery has a completely different tone than it had in the books, it seems less innocent.
The only age discrepancy I've noticed and not been ok with so far has been Tommen. He's way to old, right? I'm not misremembering am I? I really thought he was closer to 8 than to 14-15 like he is in the show. His relationship with Margaery has a completely different tone than it had in the books, it seems less innocent.
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wizards8507
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Right. Tommen is a little kid who plays with kittens and eats cream pies all the way through ADWD.
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I don't think the Margaery/Tommen relationship is that far off between the books and the show. I agree that it seems less innocent, but I also believe that this "tone" is simply a product of the fact that we see Margaery's scheming in real time in the show. We don't get to see it all unfold first-hand in the books, we just get Cersei's paranoid ravings. Seeing Margaery try to win Tommen over directly via the show makes it feel more "icky," but it was happening in the books as well.
And I still think they're going to try and make Tommen seem like the innocent kitten lover, despite his age difference. We will see Tywin give him lessons, but I don't think that actually changes his character too much as long as Ser Pounce is around.
wizards8507
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I'm not too bothered by the Margaery/Tommen relationship so much as the Cersei/Margaery relationship. The tug-of-war over Tommen is the central arc around the King's Landing characters post-death of Tywin. You're arguing that show-Marg and book-Marg are both schemers, we just happen to SEE her scheming in the show. I disagree and would argue that book-Marg is NOT a schemer. Her legitimate innocence is what makes the fall of Cersei so powerful. It's not about winning the bitch-fight (as I anticipate the show depicting it), it's about a manufactured bitch-fight in Cersei's paranoid brain and her self-destruction.
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I don't get the innocent vibe from Margaery in the books though. I don't think you can call her innocence legitimate, when nothing has been proven either way yet. She was accused and there was little evidence, but the deal with her maidenhead, and the moon tea, and the weird stuff that goes on with her cousins/friends, I just don't get "innocent" from all that.
Add also that one of the biggest "unspoken" clues is that she was sharing a wedding Chalice with Joffrey, the same that he was poisoned with... how could she not have been part of the scheming?
Your last statement is one I agree with despite what I think about Book Margaery though. Regardless of scheming/no-scheming, Cersei's paranoia is a big point of character development as things try to fall apart around her, and is powerful. I can see how pure innocence from Margaery would compound that issue and make it even more effective though... I just find it hard to believe she's innocent.
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