A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I do think it's possible that the show producers put in the blue rose bit just to screw with us.

You guys are good... I never would have picked up on that imagery.

 

[Emcee77]

You guys are good... I never would have picked up on that imagery.

Oh I can't take any credit ... didn't even occur to me until someone posted it on this site.

So I agree ... props to those who noticed.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Oh I can't take any credit ... didn't even occur to me until someone posted it on this site.

So I agree ... props to those who noticed.

And I can't take credit because I didn't notice until I saw it on Reddit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Re: Screwing with us

[Spoilers All] Benioff & Weiss are screwing with us : asoiaf

 

[IrishLion]

Grey:

I agree that they are definitely dumbing it down for the tv audience, but as I was trying to get at without spoilers (which Whiskey did very well) is that this new, jealous school-girl version of Shae will make her betrayal (both aspects) more rough for the viewers to handle... I always liked Tyrion, but I was kind of "numb" to the impact when Tyrion discovered her in Tywin's bed. Show viewers won't feel that numbness because Shae has been made to look whiney and dependent on Tyrion from the start. Those that like Tyrion will be truly upset for him.

And I didn't think this was a big departure from the book. Her "jealousy" is a much bigger part in the show, but I could have sworn that there was a turning point in the book where she got upset about the Sansa marriage eventually?

 

[wizards8507]

I agree that they are definitely dumbing it down for the tv audience...

We haven't watched S04E01 yet, but my wife can hardly contain herself with excitement even though she has literally NO IDEA what's going on. I suspect that to be the case for a lot of the TV-only audience. I'm pretty sure my wife would have no clue who Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, Mance Rayder, or Jojen Reed are, but she still manages to love the show somehow.

I'm afraid that the show is devolving into "Starks good, Lannisters bad." I also hate the TV portrayal of Daenerys. She's my number one hated character in the books but the TV audience is made to absolutely love "calleesee."

The Names Of "Game Of Thrones" Characters According To Someone's Dad

 

[IrishLion]

We haven't watched S04E01 yet, but my wife can hardly contain herself with excitement even though she has literally NO IDEA what's going on. I suspect that to be the case for a lot of the TV-only audience. I'm pretty sure my wife would have no clue who Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, Mance Rayder, or Jojen Reed are, but she still manages to love the show somehow.

I'm afraid that the show is devolving into "Starks good, Lannisters bad." I also hate the TV portrayal of Daenerys. She's my number one hated character in the books but the TV audience is made to absolutely love "calleesee."

Idk, I don't watch with any non-readers, so idk their feelings. I would think that Tyrion and Jaime are becoming a bit more likeable, and a bit less "Evil Lannister," to non-readers. That's how I felt through the books as their stories progressed (I never got that feel from Tyrion to be fair; Jaime's transformation has been astounding and a truly admirable piece of work from Martin).

I think it's just a more simplified version of the over-arching Anti-Cersei-and-Tywin agenda that is present in the books... they are the ringleaders of the Lannister Evil (and Joffrey I guess). Once Tywin gets the shaft (lol) and Cersei gets thrown in a cell, it will be another breath of fresh air for non-readers, just like the Purple Wedding will be next week.

 

[wizards8507]

Idk, I don't watch with any non-readers, so idk their feelings. I would think that Tyrion and Jaime are becoming a bit more likeable, and a bit less "Evil Lannister," to non-readers. That's how I felt through the books as their stories progressed (I never got that feel from Tyrion to be fair; Jaime's transformation has been astounding and a truly admirable piece of work from Martin).

I think it's just a more simplified version of the over-arching Anti-Cersei-and-Tywin agenda that is present in the books... they are the ringleaders of the Lannister Evil (and Joffrey I guess). Once Tywin gets the shaft (lol) and Cersei gets thrown in a cell, it will be another breath of fresh air for non-readers, just like the Purple Wedding will be next week.

You didn't like Tywin in the books?

 

[Emcee77]

We haven't watched S04E01 yet, but my wife can hardly contain herself with excitement even though she has literally NO IDEA what's going on.

Haha, my wife is a bit like that too. But then again sometimes I don't give her enough credit. Maybe it's that I forget that a picture is worth 1000 words. Not sure what it is, but I'll sometimes try to explain background to her that I think is important, and before I've finished she'll tell me very simply what she understands to be going on, and I realize that what she's succinctly stated is really all she needs to know, and I'd have taken 5 times as long to say the same thing. Lol.

I also hate the TV portrayal of Daenerys. She's my number one hated character in the books but the TV audience is made to absolutely love "calleesee."

Really? Interesting. Not that she's my favorite character or anything--like most (male) readers I find her storyline a bit boring at times--but why do you hate her?

 

[IrishLion]

You didn't like Tywin in the books?

I liked him as a good character, and things were always really interesting to read about when he was involved, but as a "person" I did not... I was too invested in Robb Stark and too devastated by the Red Wedding when I read the books. I threw it across my room and didn't pick it up for two weeks.

As for the show? I love Tywin in the show. He's still offing Starks, but he's more likable to me because of how he treated Arya at Harrenhall (did he know who she was? Or did he simply know she was highborn?) and because of his speech to Jaime when he's cleaning that deer carcass to open season two or three (it's a jumble at this point. Need to read them again.)

 

[Emcee77]

I liked him as a good character, and things were always really interesting to read about when he was involved, but as a "person" I did not... I was too invested in Robb Stark and too devastated by the Red Wedding when I read the books. I threw it across my room and didn't pick it up for two weeks.

As for the show? I love Tywin in the show. He's still offing Starks, but he's more likable to me because of how he treated Arya at Harrenhall (did he know who she was? Or did he simply know she was highborn?) and because of his speech to Jaime when he's cleaning that deer carcass to open season two or three (it's a jumble at this point. Need to read them again.)

That scene never appears in the books though, right? Isn't it Sam Tarly's father who cleans the deer carcass and gives his son a speech? The show appropriates the scene but changes the characters. IIRC.

 

[gkIrish]

The only Lannisters I "like" in the books are Tyrion and Jaime. I love Tywin and Cersei but don't "root" for them as I do with Tyrion and Jaime.

I've always rooted for all the Starks minus Sansa and Catelyn.

The show hasn't made me feel any differently.

 

[wizards8507]

Really? Interesting. Not that she's my favorite character or anything--like most (male) readers I find her storyline a bit boring at times--but why do you hate her?

She lacks any kind of internal consistency. She's completely fickle. One minute she's all about dragons, fire, and blood, then the next she's flipped to mysha-mode or fawning schoolgirl. She justifies her immoral actions on technicalities. She wants to be the "breaker of chains" by freeing her Unsullied, but they're still her slaves in just about every way, shape, and form.

Re: Shae from the other thread... I don't blame this instance of the TV show "dumbing her down." Shae's character depends very much on Tyrion's internal monologue and I'm just not sure how you pull that off in this medium. I expect something similar for Theon. Reek 1 was one of the most disturbing chapters of literature I've ever read and it was far more powerful than actually witnessing the flaying that we saw at the end of Season 3.

 

[gkIrish]

She lacks any kind of internal consistency. She's completely fickle. One minute she's all about dragons, fire, and blood, then the next she's flipped to mysha-mode or fawning schoolgirl. She justifies her immoral actions on technicalities. She wants to be the "breaker of chains" by freeing her Unsullied, but they're still her slaves in just about every way, shape, and form.

Totally with you. I dislike her in both the books and show.

 

[IrishLion]

That scene never appears in the books though, right? Isn't it Sam Tarly's father who cleans the deer carcass and gives his son a speech? The show appropriates the scene but changes the characters. IIRC.

Well no it doesn't lol, but I would know the timeline of the show better if the books were fresh in my mind (it doesn't make any sense, but that's how I try to keep it straight).

I guess I should have said that I need to rewatch the second and third seasons. But it doesn't change the fact that the deer-skinning scene is one of the reason I really "like" Tywin in the show as opposed to the books.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

The only Lannisters I "like" in the books are Tyrion and Jaime. I love Tywin and Cersei but don't "root" for them as I do with Tyrion and Jaime.

I've always rooted for all the Starks minus Sansa and Catelyn.

The show hasn't made me feel any differently.

Rereading book 1 now. Remember when Jon was saying bye to Bran before leaving for The Wall and Cat told Jon "It should have been you"

I bet he thought she was a lady of stoneheart back then. Amirite?

 

[IrishLion]

Rereading book 1 now. Remember when Jon was saying by to Bran before leaving for The Wall and Cat told Jon "It should have been you"

I bet he thought she was a lady of stoneheart back then. Amirite?

Bazinga.

 

[Emcee77]

The only Lannisters I "like" in the books are Tyrion and Jaime. I love Tywin and Cersei but don't "root" for them as I do with Tyrion and Jaime.

I've always rooted for all the Starks minus Sansa and Catelyn.

The show hasn't made me feel any differently.

That's an important distinction. I HATE when I say I "love" an odious character, meaning I think the character is skillfully or cleverly drawn and used effectively by the storyteller, and people think I am saying I root for the character or approve his actions, and then judge me like I'm some kind of moral cripple. Obviously there's a sense in which you can "love" a character without thinking that, if he were a real person, the decisions he made and actions he took would be judged to be good or correct. I mean you can love Iago, can't you?

 

[wizards8507]

That's an important distinction. I HATE when I say I "love" an odious character, meaning I think the character is skillfully or cleverly drawn and used effectively by the storyteller, and people think I am saying I root for the character or approve his actions, and then judge me like I'm some kind of moral cripple. Obviously there's a sense in which you can "love" a character without thinking that, if he were a real person, the decisions he made and actions he took would be judged to be good or correct.

Very important distinction. I hate Cersei probably more than anyone but I love reading her chapters. I both hate and hate reading Daenerys.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm afraid that the show is devolving into "Starks good, Lannisters bad." I also hate the TV portrayal of Daenerys. She's my number one hated character in the books but the TV audience is made to absolutely love "calleesee."

Lion alluded to this above, but Jamie and Tyrion are two of the most fan-beloved characters in the series, and the show makes them even more sympathetic, since it has a much smaller cast and the actors who play them are particularly awesome.

As for the show? I love Tywin in the show. He's still offing Starks, but he's more likable to me because of how he treated Arya at Harrenhall (did he know who she was? Or did he simply know she was highborn?) and because of his speech to Jaime when he's cleaning that deer carcass to open season two or three (it's a jumble at this point. Need to read them again.)

I would hope Benioff and Weiss didn't mean to imply that he knew who she was. There is absolutely no way Martin's Tywin would knowingly let Arya Stark slip through his fingers.

 

[IrishLion]

That's an important distinction. I HATE when I say I "love" an odious character, meaning I think the character is skillfully or cleverly drawn and used effectively by the storyteller, and people think I am saying I root for the character or approve his actions, and then judge me like I'm some kind of moral cripple. Obviously there's a sense in which you can "love" a character without thinking that, if he were a real person, the decisions he made and actions he took would be judged to be good or correct. I mean you can love Iago, can't you?

That's what I'm trying to say about my feelings on Book/Show Tywin.

I love the way the character is created in both the book and the show, and I love when he is involved in either... but I can't bring myself to root for the book version of Tywin at all. He's an evil robot in the books to me.

TV Show Tywin? I could get behind him a little, just because he's less of the robotic Tywin and seems like more of a genuine person, susceptible to differing moods like a real person.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Rickon? How/will he work into the story?

He is the only male Stark(maybe) that anyone knows the whereabouts of. We know that Manderly wants him but what is ultimately going to happen with him

 

[Emcee77]

She lacks any kind of internal consistency. She's completely fickle. One minute she's all about dragons, fire, and blood, then the next she's flipped to mysha-mode or fawning schoolgirl. She justifies her immoral actions on technicalities. She wants to be the "breaker of chains" by freeing her Unsullied, but they're still her slaves in just about every way, shape, and form.

Ah I see. All good points.

Her chapters are kind of maddening to read. Daenerys, I want to see some focus from you in the next two books. Enough screwing around in the East.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Rickon? How/will he work into the story?

He is the only male Stark(maybe) that anyone knows the whereabouts of. We know that Manderly wants him but what is ultimately going to happen with him

Rickon will be the Stark in Winterfell (and King in the North?) after Bran becomes Bloodraven II.

 

[wizards8507]

Anyone else come across the theory that Tyrion isn't Tywin's?

The Citadel: FAQ - 6.2.14. Who is Tyrion’s father?

How about the one that Young Griff / Aegon is neither Griff nor Aegon?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Rickon? How/will he work into the story?

He is the only male Stark(maybe) that anyone knows the whereabouts of. We know that Manderly wants him but what is ultimately going to happen with him

Rickon is on Skagos with Osha. Manderly wants him because "The North Remembers" and "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". I expect he'll play a major role in galvanizing the northern houses (behind Stannis?) to prepare for the hardships ahead (Others, the Long Winter, starvations, etc.) Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ends up as the ultimate Lord of Winterfell.

 

[IrishLion]

I would hope Benioff and Weiss didn't mean to imply that he knew who she was. There is absolutely no way Martin's Tywin would knowingly let Arya Stark slip through his fingers.

I'm not as "talented" in terms of watching TV shows/reading books and discovering the subtleties as many of you are, but I thought it was left open (at least a tiny bit) that Tywin might have a clue of who she is. He gives her the puzzling, knowing looks after Littlefinger's visit when Arya is serving them, and he gives her the obvious scolding on how to speak if she is going to keep pretending to be a commoner.

Tywin's a smart guy; he knows she's faking and that she's really a high born lady from the North, and he notices her panic around Baelish. I feel like Tywin Lannister would connect the two facts, realizing that there are only two high born young ladies from the North that would be familiar with Baelish.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Anyone else come across the theory that Tyrion isn't Tywin's?

The Citadel: FAQ - 6.2.14. Who is Tyrion’s father?

How about the one that Young Griff / Aegon is neither Griff nor Aegon?

I think I've seen this in suggesting that he is a secret Targaryen and the third head of the dragon along with Dany and Jon. I believe that's the only time I've encountered it but I shall read this

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Rickon is on Skagos with Osha. Manderly wants him because "The North Remembers" and "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell". I expect he'll play a major role in galvanizing the northern houses (behind Stannis?) to prepare for the hardships ahead (Others, the Long Winter, starvations, etc.) Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ends up as the ultimate Lord of Winterfell.

I think his existence will ultimately be the end of Petyr Baelish's plans (and probably Baelish).

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Anyone else come across the theory that Tyrion isn't Tywin's?

There's a good case to be made that all three Lannister children are the product of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

How about the one that Young Griff / Aegon is neither Griff nor Aegon?

This one is much more speculative, and ties into some larger tin-foil theories about Varys, Illyrio and the Blackfyres. I don't have strong feelings about it.