Silly Season '13 (Coaching Changes)

[woolybug25]

Wooly please start dealing with facts. About 65-70 teams a year finish 6-6 or better so there is no way that 70ish teams win 8-9 games a year.

Also it takes time to build a bad program up especially in a power conference and as his players get better his record will. Again coaching up players makes you a great coach. Last year was the first 9 victory year at Vanderbilt since 1915. That is how historically bad Vanderbilt is, which makes them almost as bad as Duke historically. I would say a .600 winning percentage at Vanderbilt makes you a great coach.

Sorry that i'm off by 10 or so teams, I pulled that number off of the top of my head. I'm sure its close enough for my point. lol

Vanderbilt doesn't have any of the difficulties that Notre Dame doesn't also have. Notre Dame actually has a harder schedule year in and out. Sure, we have historically good teams, but we also have to get kids that are willing to go to a catholic university. Here, under our standards, .600 football gets you fired.

Willingham - .582 and 8 wins over ranked teams (at the time of the game, you can look up how many were ranked at season end, I bet its more than Franklin's one)
Weis - 565 and two wins over ranked teams

So... what you guys are telling me is that because we have been historically good, that .600ish football is horrible and a fireable offense here. But if you do it at Vanderbilt it makes you a top 15 coach in all of football?

I started thinking about it and decided to do a quick list of coaches I think are better in no particular order.

Nick Saban
Urban Meyer
Brian Kelly
David Shaw
Les Miles
Bill Snyder
Bob Stoops
Mark Dantonio
Frank Beamer
Mark Richt
Art Briles
Mike Gundy
Kevin Sumlin
Steve Spurrier
Chris Peterson

So... who is Franklin better than in that list?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Sorry that i'm off by 10 or so teams, I pulled that number off of the top of my head. I'm sure its close enough for my point. lol

Vanderbilt doesn't have any of the difficulties that Notre Dame doesn't also have. Notre Dame actually has a harder schedule year in and out. Sure, we have historically good teams, but we also have to get kids that are willing to go to a catholic university. Here, under our standards, .600 football gets you fired.

Willingham - .582 and 8 wins over ranked teams (at the time of the game, you can look up how many were ranked at season end, I bet its more than Franklin's one)
Weis - 565 and two wins over ranked teams

So... what you guys are telling me is that because we have been historically good, that .600ish football is horrible and a fireable offense here. But if you do it at Vanderbilt it makes you a top 15 coach in all of football?

I started thinking about it and decided to do a quick list of coaches I think are better in no particular order.

Nick Saban
Urban Meyer
Brian Kelly
David Shaw
Les Miles
Bill Snyder
Bob Stoops
Mark Dantonio
Frank Beamer
Mark Richt
Art Briles
Mike Gundy
Kevin Sumlin
Steve Spurrier
Chris Peterson

So... who is Franklin better than in that list?

Some good points. Just my hunch, but I think Franklin could do as well as Dantonio, Beamer, and Richt in their situations. Hard to say about the others. And many of the coaches you mention took longer to build better programs into pretty good teams.

 

[pkt77242]

Sorry that i'm off by 10 or so teams, I pulled that number off of the top of my head. I'm sure its close enough for my point. lol

Vanderbilt doesn't have any of the difficulties that Notre Dame doesn't also have. Notre Dame actually has a harder schedule year in and out. Sure, we have historically good teams, but we also have to get kids that are willing to go to a catholic university. Here, under our standards, .600 football gets you fired.

Willingham - .582 and 8 wins over ranked teams (at the time of the game, you can look up how many were ranked at season end, I bet its more than Franklin's one)
Weis - 565 and two wins over ranked teams

So... what you guys are telling me is that because we have been historically good, that .600ish football is horrible and a fireable offense. But if you do it at Vanderbilt it makes you a top 15 coach in all of football.

I started thinking about it and decided to do a quick list of coaches I think are better in no particular order.

Nick Saban
Urban Meyer
Brian Kelly
David Shaw
Les Miles
Bill Snyder
Bob Stoops
Mark Dantonio
Frank Beamer
Mark Richt
Art Briles
Mike Gundy
Kevin Sumlin
Steve Spurrier
Chris Peterson

So... who is Franklin better than in that list?

You are not off by 10 teams. You said 70ish win 8-9 games. I pointed out that 65-70 win only 6 games (become bowl eligible) so it is probably more like 30-40 teams win 8 games or more. So you are off by more like 30-40 or roughly half. I call that a huge margin of error.

Wooly which of those coaches are going to Texas? Maybe Dantonio, Briles or Gundy but out side of Briles I don't think any of them are homerun hires from a fans standpoint (Dantonio is in reality but most fans won't be overjoyed by him). Actually I stated that Franklin was a top 25 coach for sure and might be a top 15. So he most likely lands between 15-25.

 

[pkt77242]

Some good points. Just my hunch, but I think Franklin could do as well as Dantonio, Beamer, and Richt in their situations. Hard to say about the others. And many of the coaches you mention took longer to build better programs into pretty good teams.

^This. You get on Franklin for his record in his first 3 seasons. How about you go back and look at the record of some of those coaches on that list in their beginning. By your measure Wooly Frank Beamer sucked as a coach his first 3 years at VT.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

^This. You get on Franklin for his record in his first 3 seasons. How about you go back and look at the record of some of those coaches on that list in their beginning. By your measure Wooly Frank Beamer sucked as a coach his first 3 years at VT.

I also don't recall them being talked about for top 5 jobs


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[woolybug25]

Some good points. Just my hunch, but I think Franklin could do as well as Dantonio, Beamer, and Richt in their situations. Hard to say about the others. And many of the coaches you mention took longer to build better programs into pretty good teams.

If you honestly believe this, then this argument isn't going anywhere. I vehemetly disagree and there is no statistic that could even remotely support this argument. Franklin isn't even on the same planet as Dantonio in my opinion.

We can simply just disagree on this Franklin argument after reading that.

You are not off by 10 teams. You said 70ish win 8-9 games. I pointed out that 65-70 win only 6 games (become bowl eligible) so it is probably more like 30-40 teams win 8 games or more. So you are off by more like 30-40 or roughly half. I call that a huge margin of error.

Wooly which of those coaches are going to Texas? Maybe Dantonio, Briles or Gundy but out side of Briles I don't think any of them are homerun hires from a fans standpoint (Dantonio is in reality but most fans won't be overjoyed by him). Actually I stated that Franklin was a top 25 coach for sure and might be a top 15. So he most likely lands between 15-25.

51 teams by my count.
2013 NCAA College Football Standings - ESPN

That's not my point though. Again... 51 out of 118 teams this year finished with over 8 wins. Why are 8 wins at Vanderbilt make you one of the best coaches in the game when 8 wins at Texas gets their former national title coach fired? It doesn't add up.

But like I said. If Dantonio is a worse coach than Franklin in your opinion... then we can move onto another topic. This train isn't going anywhere.

 

[woolybug25]

I also don't recall them being talked about for top 5 jobs


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Exactly... not to mention that considering his entire career, I would put him near the bottom of the top 15 coaches. Franklin hasn't done anything worthy of being put up there with him, imo.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Off the top of my head without doing any research (so, perception-wise, who I would take Franklin over):

I started thinking about it and decided to do a quick list of coaches I think are better in no particular order.

Nick Saban - definite no
Urban Meyer - no
Brian Kelly - no
David Shaw - no
Les Miles - no
Bill Snyder - body of work, no, but I'd hire Franklin if I had a job opening today
Bob Stoops - somewhere between Snyder and "soft no"; would want to do some research
Mark Dantonio - soft no
Frank Beamer - yes
Mark Richt - yes
Art Briles - soft no
Mike Gundy - yes
Kevin Sumlin - no
Steve Spurrier - same as Snyder
Chris Peterson - no

So... who is Franklin better than in that list?

 

[pkt77242]

I also don't recall them being talked about for top 5 jobs


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I agree though I would say that how coaches get hired has changed drastically over the past couple of years. Now it seems that many schools are going for the splash hire/up and comer.

Lets look at the past couple of top 10 programs and who they hired
USC: Sarkisian. HC at Washington
Florida: Will Muschamp. No head coaching experience prior
FSU: Fisher, no head coaching experience
Michigan: Hoke, no head coaching experience in a BCS conference
Ohio St: Urban.

I feel like I am missing someone but I can't think of it. 3 teams hired up and coming coaches (Florida, Michigan and FSU), 1 hired a no brainer (Ohio St) and 1 hired a BCS coach that had connections to the university. I guess you could add Miami in there as well and they hired a Golden who had previously coached at Temple, so he would probably count as an up and comer as well.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think Dantonio is fine. He has a pretty good team in a terrible conference. I think Michigan State could have easily lost 3-4 games with Vandy's schedule this year.

A&M, South Carolina, Missouri, and possibly Georgia.

Do you disagree with that?

 

[woolybug25]

Rhode... Are you shitting me? You would have to think about whether you would take a coach with one career win over a ranked team over one of the best winning percentages in the game. A coach that also won a title?

Am I in the Twilight Zone?

 

[ACamp1900]

Anyone want to guess how many wins Dantonio averaged his first three seasons at MSU?? lol

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Off the top of my head without doing any research (so, perception-wise, who I would take Franklin over):

Pretty good list.

Again, just my perception.

 

[woolybug25]

I think Dantonio is fine. He has a pretty good team in a terrible conference. I think Michigan State could have easily lost 3-4 games with Vandy's schedule this year.

A&M, South Carolina, Missouri, and possibly Georgia.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes. Vehemently.

 

[woolybug25]

Anyone want to guess how many wins Dantonio averaged his first three seasons at MSU?? lol

Were people calling him a top 15 coach at that point?

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

If Kelly left this year, would you guys want Franklin? I wouldn't


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[IrishJayhawk]

Yes. Vehemently.

You think Michigan State would have beaten those 4 teams?

 

[ACamp1900]

You think Michigan State would have beaten those 4 teams?

Honestly I think the odds of them winning all four would be higher than them losing all four...

 

[pkt77242]

If you honestly believe this, then this argument isn't going anywhere. I vehemetly disagree and there is no statistic that could even remotely support this argument. Franklin isn't even on the same planet as Dantonio in my opinion.

We can simply just disagree on this Franklin argument after reading that.



51 teams by my count.
2013 NCAA College Football Standings - ESPN

That's not my point though. Again... 51 out of 118 teams this year finished with over 8 wins. Why are 8 wins at Vanderbilt make you one of the best coaches in the game when 8 wins at Texas gets their former national title coach fired? It doesn't add up. But like I said. If Dantonio is a worse coach than Franklin in your opinion... then we can move onto another topic. This train isn't going anywhere.

I didn't say that Dantonio was a worse coach but that fans wouldn't view him as a homerun hire (as I pointed out he is but the fans perception is that he is not).

If you can't grasp the bolded part Wooly then I don't even know what to say to you. It boggles my mind that you can't grasp it because I know that you are a smart person.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Rhode... Are you shitting me? You would have to think about whether you would take a coach with one career win over a ranked team one of the best winning percentages in the game. A coach that also won a title?

Am I in the Twilight Zone?

I was looking at who I would hire for a job today, not who I would vote for for the hall of fame. I was taking career arc into account. I think, from an upside perspective, Franklin offers more than the "yes" people on my list and less than the "no" people.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

You think Michigan State would have beaten those 4 teams?

I think they would have won against A&M, SC, and UGA especially if they played them with the injuries they had against vandy. The trees Mizzou has at WR would have given them the same trouble they had with us. That game might have been a loss


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[woolybug25]

Honestly I think the odds of them winning all four would be higher than them losing all four...

Yup.

 

[woolybug25]

I didn't say that Dantonio was a worse coach but that fans wouldn't view him as a homerun hire (as I pointed out he is but the fans perception is that he is not).

If you can't grasp the bolded part Wooly then I don't even know what to say to you. It boggles my mind that you can't grasp it because I know that you are a smart person.

You stated very clearly that he is a top 15 coach. Then stated you would take him over Dantonio on my list of 15. What am I missing?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Honestly I think the odds of them winning all four would be higher than them losing all four...

I think Georgia would have been close. I think the other three would have beaten them. They didn't play anyone but Notre Dame and Ohio State this year.

 

[ACamp1900]

I didn't say that Dantonio was a worse coach but that fans wouldn't view him as a homerun hire (as I pointed out he is but the fans perception is that he is not).

If you can't grasp the bolded part Wooly then I don't even know what to say to you. It boggles my mind that you can't grasp it because I know that you are a smart person.

I'm honestly stuck on that too...

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Yup.

Okay. Agree to disagree.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I think Georgia would have been close. I think the other three would have beaten them. They didn't play anyone but Notre Dame and Ohio State this year.

I agree with this.

 

[ACamp1900]

Can i make a point that may be unpopular... just chew on it for a while... if eight wins at Vandy is nothing to pump your chest at, then how in the world is Brian Kelly anywhere near the top 15 coaches in the country list???

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Yup.

So you think they would have gone undefeated in the SEC with Vandy's schedule?

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

Silly Season '13 (Coaching Changes)

Can i make a point that may be unpopular... just chew on it for a while... if eight wins at Vandy is nothing to pump your chest at, then how in the world is Brian Kelly anywhere near the top 15 coaches in the country list???

A pair of DII national championships and a pair of undefeated regular seasons help your credibility

He beat 4 times as many ranked teams in 2009 with cincy as Franklin has in 3 years

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