28 Dec | Pinstripe Bowl vs. Rutgers

[wizards8507]

Good questions. I did not mean to suggest that I am satisfied with 8-4. Just saying that I am not embarrassed by the way the team played this season and I didn't get a "bad feeling" from this season -- although I now better understand Olympia's point to the extent that he was saying that misfortune just kinda seemed to hang over us in some ways this off-season and season.

To take a stab at answering your questions ... I will have real concern if I don't see the offense take a big step forward next year under Golson. Right now I'm sanguine about the program in large part because I feel like a lot of our problems can be explained by the fact that we don't have the kind of player we want and need at QB, and that's due to a lot of bad luck, with Kiel leaving for no good reason and Golson getting suspended. We know Golson is that type of player, so I want to see us light it up from time to time next season or I'm really going to wonder why we can't.

Do we really, though? I'm not sure where all the blind optimism in Golson has come from since he left, but we forget that he was bailed out by TTR repeatedly last season.

 

[IrishLion]

Now what we have to hang our hats on are the following IMO.

-Jaylon Smith is a superstar in the making
-WE will have a mobile QB no matter what, and that was a major issue this past year
-Corey and Will look like really solid to good WR in the making
-TF looks like the real deal at RB
-Russell looks so good at CB
-Our TE's are studs
-Rochelle and Day look really good at DE
-Kyle B is really good at both kicking areas
-We lose Martin, and Nick has a major knee injury but Elmer/Conner/Matt H/Stanley look really good on the line. ANd the redshirt guys are coming.
-Davarius looks like he is stepping up.

Now THAT is a good list to build on. If the QB position is more dynamic than it was this year, ND will be just fine.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I see some seats opening up on the bandwagon. Perhaps next year they'll be full again.

 

[IrishLax]

Do we really, though? I'm not sure where all the blind optimism in Golson has come from since he left, but we forget that he was bailed out by TTR repeatedly last season.

I'm truly getting so sick of this kind of stuff. Yes, in his first starts ever he struggled... mightily at times... and got pulled for TR in a couple of instances. Growing pains are pretty natural for any first time starter.

From the Oklahoma game onward, Golson had an aggregate QBR that would put him in or close to the top 10 nationally. Basically, over the last half of the season, Golson played at a "very good" or borderline "elite" level.

The only question is what happens with his time off? If he made natural progression in year 2, we'd be looking at him being a baller in complete command of the offense in year 3. Instead, we have some question marks.

I can be quite a pessimist at times, but the argument that Golson didn't show/prove to be a very good player who should have a tremendous impact on our offense is just bogus on every level.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

You have to look at this year as one of one. If it isn't, you have to look for new coaches and players, because no one would be left after two of these!

Seriously, many of the "coaching mistakes" were interruptions in the depth chart. You can go through the tick list. Loss of few players could have hurt us more than Golson, Spond, Baratti, and Springman.

 

[irishfan]

I'm truly getting so sick of this kind of stuff. Yes, in his first starts ever he struggled... mightily at times... and got pulled for TR in a couple of instances. Growing pains are pretty natural for any first time starter.

From the Oklahoma game onward, Golson had an aggregate QBR that would put him in or close to the top 10 nationally. Basically, over the last half of the season, Golson played at a "very good" or borderline "elite" level.

I actually made a thread about this last spring before Golson got the boot.

Everyone talked about how Golson's play drastically improved from the Oklahoma game on last year. I took his numbers from Oklahoma-Alabama and averaged them out. If he put up those numbers for a full 13 game schedule (which I think most people on here think he will at the minimum), here would be his numbers:

3,114 passing yards. 17 TDs and 6 INTs.

470 rushing yards. 9 rushing TDs.

Considering he would have most likely progressed significantly from Year 1 to Year 2, and 3 of these 6 games were against the likes of OU, USC, and Bama, these projected stats, if anything, could be argued as conservative ones.

Compare to Rees' stats of:

2,938 yards. 27 TDs and 13 INTs

I think 1 carry for 2 yards? Not seeing it listed on the ESPN season stats but I think they did a QB draw/power against Mich or Purdue on 3rd and 1

 

[Irish8248]

BCSCG --- Next year record/bowl games

07-08 LSU v OSU -- 8-5 LSU chik fil a 10-3 OSU fiesta
08-09 UF v Ok U --- UF 13-1 Sugar, Ok 8-5 Brut Sun
09-10 Bama v Tx -- Bama 10-3 Capital one, TX 5-7 not eligible
10-11 Aub v Org -- Aub 8-5 chik fil a, Ore 12-2 Rose
11-12 Bama v LSU --Bama 13-0 CG, LSU Chik Fil A

lots of 8-5 the following years in mid tier bowls... Hell TX went from glory to dismissal

 

[wizards8507]

I'm truly getting so sick of this kind of stuff. Yes, in his first starts ever he struggled... mightily at times... and got pulled for TR in a couple of instances. Growing pains are pretty natural for any first time starter.

From the Oklahoma game onward, Golson had an aggregate QBR that would put him in or close to the top 10 nationally. Basically, over the last half of the season, Golson played at a "very good" or borderline "elite" level.

The only question is what happens with his time off? If he made natural progression in year 2, we'd be looking at him being a baller in complete command of the offense in year 3. Instead, we have some question marks.

I can be quite a pessimist at times, but the argument that Golson didn't show/prove to be a very good player who should have a tremendous impact on our offense is just bogus on every level.

I don't disagree. He "should" be "very good." That's not my problem. My problems are:

1. People who replace "should" with "definitely will." We don't know how the off time will affect him. He might be better, worse, or exactly the same as he was in 2012.

2. People who replace "very good" with "baller / Heisman contender / program changer." I believe his upside is significantly higher than Tommy, but people seem eager to put him in the Manziel / Winston / Mariota pile.

Considering he would have most likely progressed significantly from Year 1 to Year 2, and 3 of these 6 games were against the likes of OU, USC, and Bama, these projected stats, if anything, could be argued as conservative ones.

THAT'S my problem. You can't just assume that. Johnny Manziel's QBR dropped from 90.5 to 84.5 from 2012 - 2013, largely due to an increased interception total. RG3 went from 5 interceptions in the NFL in 2012 to 12 so far this year. There's no rule that says a quarterback will automatically be better just because he's been in the program for an extra year. Yes, it SHOULD be the case, but there is no guarantee whatsoever.

 

[Emcee77]

I don't disagree. He "should" be "very good." That's not my problem. My problems are:

1. People who replace "should" with "definitely will." We don't know how the off time will affect him. He might be better, worse, or exactly the same as he was in 2012.

2. People who replace "very good" with "baller / Heisman contender / program changer." I believe his upside is significantly higher than Tommy, but people seem eager to put him in the Manziel / Winston / Mariota pile.

Fair enough, but did anybody in this thread do that? I called him "the kind of player we want and need," by which I just meant he has the physical ability not only to beat teams with his arm but to elude pass rushers and extend plays.

I agree that if people are expecting a Heisman year from Golson their expectations are too high. Golson might prove to be on that level, but it would be unfair to expect that from him.

 

[wizards8507]

Fair enough, but did anybody in this thread do that? I called him "the kind of player we want and need," by which I just meant he has the physical ability not only to beat teams with his arm but to elude pass rushers and extend plays.

I agree that if people are expecting a Heisman year from Golson their expectations are too high. Golson might prove to be on that level, but it would be unfair to expect that from him.

My bad. I misinterpreted what you meant by "that kind of player." I thought you were refering to the proverbial "THAT kind of player" (i.e. special, program-changing, once-in-a-coach's-career). On re-read you're not one of the EG worshipers but I'll leave my comments because they certainly apply to what I've read from others in verious threads.

 

[BangbangNDLarry]

Even though we all wish that we where in a bigger bowel than the pinstripe, and playing a stronger team then bloody Rutgers, I think we should still be happy. I mean we were a crappy four loss team that barely got threw a couple teams we should have blown out. I hope it dose not happen but if Rutgers beats us who knows what it will do to our recruiting for next year

 

[BobD]

Even though we all wish that we where in a bigger bowel than the pinstripe, and playing a stronger team then bloody Rutgers, I think we should still be happy. I mean we were a crappy four loss team that barely got threw a couple teams we should have blown out. I hope it dose not happen but if Rutgers beats us who knows what it will do to our recruiting for next year

I have absolutely no desire to be in a bigger bowel or for that matter any bowel Have you been watching reruns of shark week?

 

[NDohio]

I have absolutely no desire to be in a bigger bowel or for that matter any bowel Have you been watching reruns of shark week?

At least is was bloody Rutgers and not bloody .......

 

[palinurus]

....

Now what we have to hang our hats on are the following IMO.

-Jaylon Smith is a superstar in the making
-WE will have a mobile QB no matter what, and that was a major issue this past year
-Corey and Will look like really solid to good WR in the making
-TF looks like the real deal at RB
-Russell looks so good at CB
-Our TE's are studs
-Rochelle and Day look really good at DE
-Kyle B is really good at both kicking areas
-We lose Martin, and Nick has a major knee injury but Elmer/Conner/Matt H/Stanley look really good on the line. ANd the redshirt guys are coming.
-Davarius looks like he is stepping up.

I'd add a few more really good things to this list, and I am no Pollyanna:

-- Our young guys took advantage of the injuries to get a lot of playing time that wasn't expected. This will make most of them better next year and beyond.

-- we have a very good class coming in 2014, Lord willing, and the start of a fantastic class in 2015. This is not the sign of decrepit program.

-- the program has definitely stabilized from the Weis years. I know the losses are painful, esp. because we feel like we could/should have won some of those, but the team is stable and playing hard. It's not built around one superstar (e.g., Manziell) but is built around a system.

 

[palinurus]

btw, here's a Stadium football map, for those of you going to the game.

http://web.pinstripebowl.com/images/2013_seatingmap.pdf

 

[TheChosen1]

Want a new gift suite choice? Take a seat - SportsBusiness Daily | SportsBusiness Journal | SportsBusiness Daily Global

List of Bowl gifts--doesn't go in to detail on Pinstipe though

 

[#1rish]

This may be a stupid question, but every player gets their own separate gifts? Not like a bunch of PS4s for the player lounge, but each?

I never knew bowls were sort of like a second Christmas for the team. That's pretty awesome.

 

[IrishLion]

This may be a stupid question, but every player gets their own separate gifts? Not like a bunch of PS4s for the player lounge, but each?

I never knew bowls were sort of like a second Christmas for the team. That's pretty awesome.

The way I understand it based on what most bowls do, each player gets their own package. If a PS4 is included, everyone gets one.

There are also some bowls that give the players a sheet full of things, and the player has a certain amount of "credit" to spend on various items from the sheet. The bigger items obviously use more of the credits, so players have to make "tough" decisions on their free gifts haha.

 

[philipm31]

8-4 being "normal" is better than 6-6 being "normal." I know a lot of people would like to get comfortable at 10-2 year after year, but I don't really see that happening for anyone in the modern era.

That being said, I'm no expert and the real answer could be any of the following.

1. BK has us on the right trajectory and we're going to continue to rise and be a perennial BCS contender.

2. BK has peaked. He's a good but not great coach and we should get used to 8-4, with some BCS anomalies once every four years or so.

3. BK has the ability to get us to #1, but the administration and the "challenges" of ND make it impossible so this is as good as it will ever get.

Regarding the first statement, please tell that the LSU, Bama and South Carolina. FSU will be rolling double digit seasons for a while too, as will Clemson, oddly enough. As will Ohio State.

I have serious concerns about BK as a head coach, if he had no backup plan for Golson. We need to desperately upgrade at NT, QB--say what you want about Kiel leaving, we still should have been developing Hendrix so he could actually be productive enough to give Tommy a legit run for his money; because I honestly feel that he felt no pressure to truly even try to perform better than he could because he knew that BK had no viable backup and so he was safe no matter what he did on the field--LB and DB, at the very least, so I will be watching to see what kind of players he gets...and can KEEP.

Losing Vanderdoes was HUGE for us this year as he would have helped out a LOT and strengthened us going into next year, when we may not have much of a DL to speak of, if Tuitt and Nix both leave.

Next year will truly be able to give us a better indication of what Kelly's coaching acumen is. So I really think that last year might have been the season we will ever have under Kelly, sadly.

Of course, winning eight games a year is better than five or six a year, but I am tired of being nothing but mediocre for the last twenty five years. ND needs to keep a sharp eye out for a coach that honestly has the ability to do #2, despite any and all challenges that the administration may present. It was done too many times in the past for us to just shrug our shoulders and just assume it cannot be done anymore. It can be and I think ND needs to keep looking to find the coach that can take us there.

Also, #2 and #3 tend to be conflated because most people think that ND will never be a true title contender because of coaching and administration/academics....of course that has not stopped Stanford in the last half-decade either, so #3 really is nothing but a crutch, not a real reason.

It might be Kelly and I truly hope that it is because he really has done a lot of great things at ND in his four years here, but next year, including recruiting, will be extremely important for adding a stronger base/foundation for the team's future, imho.

 

[peoriairish]

Hey Bob.....

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Cannot wait to go to The bowl game only to receive my PS4</p>— Jarron Jones (@Who_GotJones94) <a href="https://twitter.com/Who_GotJones94/statuses/410253688922316800">December 10, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Crazy Balki]

Regarding the first statement, please tell that the LSU, Bama and South Carolina. FSU will be rolling double digit seasons for a while too, as will Clemson, oddly enough. As will Ohio State.

I have serious concerns about BK as a head coach, if he had no backup plan for Golson. We need to desperately upgrade at NT, QB--say what you want about Kiel leaving, we still should have been developing Hendrix so he could actually be productive enough to give Tommy a legit run for his money; because I honestly feel that he felt no pressure to truly even try to perform better than he could because he knew that BK had no viable backup and so he was safe no matter what he did on the field--LB and DB, at the very least, so I will be watching to see what kind of players he gets...and can KEEP.

Losing Vanderdoes was HUGE for us this year as he would have helped out a LOT and strengthened us going into next year, when we may not have much of a DL to speak of, if Tuitt and Nix both leave.

Next year will truly be able to give us a better indication of what Kelly's coaching acumen is. So I really think that last year might have been the season we will ever have under Kelly, sadly.

Of course, winning eight games a year is better than five or six a year, but I am tired of being nothing but mediocre for the last twenty five years. ND needs to keep a sharp eye out for a coach that honestly has the ability to do #2, despite any and all challenges that the administration may present. It was done too many times in the past for us to just shrug our shoulders and just assume it cannot be done anymore. It can be and I think ND needs to keep looking to find the coach that can take us there.

Also, #2 and #3 tend to be conflated because most people think that ND will never be a true title contender because of coaching and administration/academics....of course that has not stopped Stanford in the last half-decade either, so #3 really is nothing but a crutch, not a real reason.

It might be Kelly and I truly hope that it is because he really has done a lot of great things at ND in his four years here, but next year, including recruiting, will be extremely important for adding a stronger base/foundation for the team's future, imho.

Unfortunately, Kelly did have a plan B at QB. Gunner Kiel. Not only did Kelly lose his Plan A, but also his Plan B. I don't think any team can expect to do as well as ND did with their 3rd string QB (It was obvious that Kiel would be 2nd behind Golson). Let's face it, Kelly has been un-freakin'-lucky with his hand at QB. Dayne Crist had the tools, but had 2 bad knees and was emotionally crippled. Rees knew the system, but had no tools and made some dumb decisions. Hendrix had the tools, but was wildly inaccurate, froze under pressure and couldn't run the offense well enough.

Can't blame Kelly for EV either. He made a stupid decision and pussed out like a little punk. Sorry, but that's how I see it. His story about his "family issues" is bullsh*t. If that were the case, he would've stayed closer to home, 8 hours away from there. But I digress. Kelly is getting the job done by recruiting DL, mainly defensive ends. They'll need to nab a NG or move someone like Montelus or Mustipher over to play NG. They simply cannot ignore that position.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Regarding the first statement, please tell that the LSU, Bama and South Carolina. FSU will be rolling double digit seasons for a while too, as will Clemson, oddly enough. As will Ohio State.

I have serious concerns about BK as a head coach, if he had no backup plan for Golson. We need to desperately upgrade at NT, QB--say what you want about Kiel leaving, we still should have been developing Hendrix so he could actually be productive enough to give Tommy a legit run for his money; because I honestly feel that he felt no pressure to truly even try to perform better than he could because he knew that BK had no viable backup and so he was safe no matter what he did on the field--LB and DB, at the very least, so I will be watching to see what kind of players he gets...and can KEEP.

Losing Vanderdoes was HUGE for us this year as he would have helped out a LOT and strengthened us going into next year, when we may not have much of a DL to speak of, if Tuitt and Nix both leave.

Next year will truly be able to give us a better indication of what Kelly's coaching acumen is. So I really think that last year might have been the season we will ever have under Kelly, sadly.

Of course, winning eight games a year is better than five or six a year, but I am tired of being nothing but mediocre for the last twenty five years. ND needs to keep a sharp eye out for a coach that honestly has the ability to do #2, despite any and all challenges that the administration may present. It was done too many times in the past for us to just shrug our shoulders and just assume it cannot be done anymore. It can be and I think ND needs to keep looking to find the coach that can take us there.

Also, #2 and #3 tend to be conflated because most people think that ND will never be a true title contender because of coaching and administration/academics....of course that has not stopped Stanford in the last half-decade either, so #3 really is nothing but a crutch, not a real reason.

It might be Kelly and I truly hope that it is because he really has done a lot of great things at ND in his four years here, but next year, including recruiting, will be extremely important for adding a stronger base/foundation for the team's future, imho.

(1) Kelly has recruited a QB every year since he's been at ND. And despite the shitstorm that happened at the position this past offseason, he managed to turn Tommy Rees into a serviceable D1 QB, despite being a poor fit for his offense. I consider that impressive.

(2) The only damnable thing you can really point to in Kelly's recruiting IMO is not picking up Schutt. You can also point to the ILB position, but he can't entice ILB recruits that aren't interested. Despite this, we've still had solid play in the interior line positions despite mediocre recruiting at those positions.

(3) In hindsight, between career ending injuries and transfers, the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes were largely disasters. While a lot of the players in those classes have played pretty well, the numbers just aren't there. This past recruiting class is BY FAR the most talented and deepest he's had yet, and this years is shaping nicely as well. In depth and talent, this team is on the upswing IMO.

Of course things have to work out themselves (which they don't always, but certain things are out of the staff's hands), but I do believe this team is on the upswing.

 

[#1rish]

http://web.pinstripebowl.com/images/2013_seatingmap.pdf

FYI for anyone looking to go. Also, for anyone who hasn't been to the stadium, the inside of sections 239 and 201 have obstructed views due to the Mohegan Sun bar, so be advised. For example, in section 201 you most likely won't be able to see the left side from the 30-yard line up, and vice versa.

 

[Buster Bluth]

(1) Kelly has recruited a QB every year since he's been at ND. And despite the shitstorm that happened at the position this past offseason, he managed to turn Tommy Rees into a serviceable D1 QB, despite being a poor fit for his offense. I consider that impressive.

Yep, and it's not like he's been too bad at bringing in studs:

2011: (.8936) #5 PQB
2012: (.9869) #1 PQB
2013: (.9268) #4 DQB
2014: (.9090) #11 PQB
2015: (.9377) #6 DQB

And even on retaining those those guys, only one of them has transferred and that's because the guy ahead of him was killin' it as a RS Frosh. I'm not at all worried about Kelly's QBs going forward.

(2) The only damnable thing you can really point to in Kelly's recruiting IMO is not picking up Schutt.

But then I can turn around and say that the guy they chose instead, Day, turned out to be a stud. So it's splitting hairs there, especially considering the shitstorm with Vanderdoes and Lynch.

You can also point to the ILB position, but he can't entice ILB recruits that aren't interested. Despite this, we've still had solid play in the interior line positions despite mediocre recruiting at those positions.

I'm not sure I'd say the recruiting is mediocre either. Nix, Schwenke, Jones, etc were all highly recruited, no?

(3) In hindsight, between career ending injuries and transfers, the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes were largely disasters. While a lot of the players in those classes have played pretty well, the numbers just aren't there. This past recruiting class is BY FAR the most talented and deepest he's had yet, and this years is shaping nicely as well. In depth and talent, this team is on the upswing IMO.

Of course things have to work out themselves (which they don't always, but certain things are out of the staff's hands), but I do believe this team is on the upswing.

I think it's fair to say that Kelly has been fine tuning the art of recruiting for ND. In 2012 they swung for the fences and while the effort was great and they really showed their ability to get into the battles with top programs...it was a swing and a miss. 2013 and 2014 and have fared much better, and 2015 looks like it could top both of them.

 

[PANDFAN]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>18 Days until ND's Bowl Game! I'm in a New York State of Mind.... <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23GoIrish&src=hash">#GoIrish</a> <a href="http://t.co/BbTJH4BUTP">pic.twitter.com/BbTJH4BUTP</a></p>— Andrew Lamping (@AndrewLamping) <a href="https://twitter.com/AndrewLamping/statuses/410428834995924992">December 10, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[wizards8507]

Regarding the first statement, please tell that the LSU, Bama and South Carolina. FSU will be rolling double digit seasons for a while too, as will Clemson, oddly enough. As will Ohio State.

From 1998 to 2001, LSU was 25 and 22.
Alabama from 2000 to 2003 was 24 and 25.
South Carolina went 23 and 24 from 2002 to 2005.

Every team has down years. The demise of Notre Dame has been drastically overstated.

 

[dublinirish]

Saban lost to UL-Monroe at Bama thats definitely worse than ND losing to Navy or Syracuse.

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en data-scribe-reduced-action-queue="><p>The weblink for the live press conference at Yankee Stadium announcing the <a href="https://twitter.com/PinstripeBowl">@PinstripeBowl</a> is now active. <a href="http://t.co/s5IhHFPAJL">http://t.co/s5IhHFPAJL</a></p>— Notre Dame Football (@NDFootball) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDFootball/statuses/410441700952121344">December 10, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

But then I can turn around and say that the guy they chose instead, Day, turned out to be a stud. So it's splitting hairs there, especially considering the shitstorm with Vanderdoes and Lynch.



I'm not sure I'd say the recruiting is mediocre either. Nix, Schwenke, Jones, etc were all highly recruited, no?



I think it's fair to say that Kelly has been fine tuning the art of recruiting for ND. In 2012 they swung for the fences and while the effort was great and they really showed their ability to get into the battles with top programs...it was a swing and a miss. 2013 and 2014 and have fared much better, and 2015 looks like it could top both of them.

On the first point, I should be more specific saying that nose tackle recruiting has been a miss since Nix/Kona (don't think I need to tell anyone that). My point about Schutt was nothing to say about Day (who was the better prospect and player). In hindsight it was pretty crazy not to take Schutt. We've picked up several stud D-lineman, just no true NT. And despite the consternation on Vanderdoes, it was more shocking that he signed with us in the first place than it was to loose him. A wash as far as I'm concerned.

If the 2013 class and 2014 class hold together (which they seem to be so far <fingers crossed>), the future is bright for ND football.

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en data-scribe-reduced-action-queue="><p>All the parties have arrived .. <a href="https://twitter.com/PinstripeBowl">@PinstripeBowl</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/NDFootball">@NDFootball</a> <a href="http://t.co/jjOuvXtToN">pic.twitter.com/jjOuvXtToN</a></p>— Michael Bertsch (@NDsidBertschy) <a href="https://twitter.com/NDsidBertschy/statuses/410442593756282880">December 10, 2013</a></blockquote>
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