Chuck Martin has no idea what he is doing

BGIF

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...

ISD confirmed on Power Hour that Martin is calling the plays. That also means he's the guy who is deciding to shuffle around personnel like he's a 15 year old girl who can't decide what outfit he wants to wear. Every time we go empty on 3rd and short it is him. Every time you want to scream at the television because you know exactly what play is coming or can't understand why we're doing XYZ... it's him.

...


How does ISD know? Seriously.

Kelly wears a headset and gets the play Martin calls as O.C. Kelly then tells the play to the Red Hats who relay it Rees. Are the Red Hats sending in Martin's call or Kelly's overcall?

The Red Hats don't know. Rees doesn't know. ISD doesn't know. Only Kelly and Martin know.

Kelly has the final word on every play called. Does he let 100% of the plays Martin calls stand? 90%? 50? 10?

When Kelly came to ND he stated that the game plan was a collaborative effort among the coaching staff including input from the defensive coaches. On Game Day does Kelly remain a delegator who turns the Offense over unfettered to his O.C or does he take charge?

We asked this same question when Molnar was on staff and nobody really knew. So how does ISD know now? Did they ask Kelly? Or ask Martin?

If Kelly wasn't happy with the calls, he'd be changing them.


If you were a coordinator and the head coach was changing your calls would you discuss it it with a website reporter? Hell no.

And if Kelly isn't changing Martin's play calls that means he concurs with those calls.
 

FearTheBeard

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BGIF, if Kelly overruled many of his calls do you think it would make more sense to find a different coordinator instead of overruling all the time? If not, and he agrees, i feel like the results on the field show some problems so maye kelly should still find someone different and let them handle it. As a head coach hes gotta find a way to get good play calls out there. I feel like its something that requires some type of change. But just my opinion on it
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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I've never been critical of this staff, and if anything I have probably gone too far the other way and been a bit confrontational when defending them against criticism. And I'm still not in the "fire everyone - heads must roll!" camp. But you'd have to be a complete sycophant not to acknowledge that there are play calling issues with this offense. First of all, we are ten games into a twelve game season and I can't tell you what we do exceptionally well. Ideally, we would do that thing when we had to have a play, but we don't.

At a high level, the biggest problem I have with the play calling is that we are either too vertical or too horizontal in the passing game, and don't make enough of an effort to attack the middle of the field. We are constantly trying to beat coverage over the top or running WR screens. Those are things you do when defenses cheat to keep them honest; that isn't the basis of an offense. We have good weapons to attack the middle of the field. Two good TEs and some receivers who seem like they could make one move and get open and then try to get the ball into their hands when they're moving and let them create YAC.

I'm not a football coach. I played some football, and I watch a lot of football, but this isn't my job. So maybe someone can correct me, but that is my general sense after watching this offense sputter for 3 months and also seeing how offenses that consistently move the ball operate.

Goes back to what I was saying. No identify. I'm boring, I like a run the ball, toss it to a tight end and beat em' deep when they cheat up type offense. Think mid 90's Dallas Cowboys.

A few things that I would love to here an explanation on.

1. Why the pistol on 3 and short? Makes zero sense.

2. Why empty backfield on third and short? Makes zero sense

3. First and goal inside the 10. Why thrown 3 times in the corner of the end zone? Makes no sense.

4. If tommy is allowed to make checks at the line. Why doesn't he check himself out of those roll outs? He has to say to himself oh s*** every time.
 

Rhode Irish

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Goes back to what I was saying. No identify. I'm boring, I like a run the ball, toss it to a tight end and beat em' deep when they cheat up type offense. Think mid 90's Dallas Cowboys.

A few things that I would love to here an explanation on.

1. Why the pistol on 3 and short? Makes zero sense.

2. Why empty backfield on third and short? Makes zero sense

3. First and goal inside the 10. Why thrown 3 times in the corner of the end zone? Makes no sense.

4. If tommy is allowed to make checks at the line. Why doesn't he check himself out of those roll outs? He has to say to himself oh s*** every time.

Yeah that reminds me of something I intended to say but forgot as I was typing. It is amazing to me that we can't run higher percentage plays on third down. I don't care as much about the formation, but what is with chucking the ball 30 yards down the field on 3rd & 3? I don't care if you see single coverage, it still isn't a high-percentage enough play to run when you have to give the ball away if you don't complete it. If you see single coverage on the perimeter and want to try to let DD eat on first down, I'm not bothered if we audible out of a dive play. But on third down, you need to be running the highest percentage stuff you have to try to retain possession. Sometimes it feels like the game is being called without any appreciation for how important possession of the football actually is.
 

gkIrish

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I almost feel like the coaches don't watch the game film. It's one thing to think an empty backfield on 3rd and short is a good idea in weeks 1, 2 or 3. It's quite another thing to see that it doesn't work and continue to do it in Week 10.
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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Yeah that reminds me of something I intended to say but forgot as I was typing. It is amazing to me that we can't run higher percentage plays on third down. I don't care as much about the formation, but what is with chucking the ball 30 yards down the field on 3rd & 3? I don't care if you see single coverage, it still isn't a high-percentage enough play to run when you have to give the ball away if you don't complete it. If you see single coverage on the perimeter and want to try to let DD eat on first down, I'm not bothered if we audible out of a dive play. But on third down, you need to be running the highest percentage stuff you have to try to retain possession. Sometimes it feels like the game is being called without any appreciation for how important possession of the football actually is.

Couldn't agree more. Another thing that makes wants me to jump out a window is 1st Down; incomplete bomb to TJ. 2nd Down; dive up the gut with GA3. 3rd Down; bomb to DD incomplete. What is that!?!?!?
 

gkIrish

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Couldn't agree more. Another thing that makes wants me to jump out a window is 1st Down; incomplete bomb to TJ. 2nd Down; dive up the gut with GA3. 3rd Down; bomb to DD incomplete. What is that!?!?!?


If you're ever in the Live Chat during games you'll see how angry I get when we do this. Literally 90% of the time we throw an incomplete pass on 1st down we run a dive on 2nd for 0-3 yards. It's maddening. If you're going to run on 2nd and 10 at least get creative.
 

Wild Bill

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Goes back to what I was saying. No identify. I'm boring, I like a run the ball, toss it to a tight end and beat em' deep when they cheat up type offense. Think mid 90's Dallas Cowboys.

A few things that I would love to here an explanation on.

1. Why the pistol on 3 and short? Makes zero sense.

2. Why empty backfield on third and short? Makes zero sense

3. First and goal inside the 10. Why thrown 3 times in the corner of the end zone? Makes no sense.

4. If tommy is allowed to make checks at the line. Why doesn't he check himself out of those roll outs? He has to say to himself oh s*** every time.

I don't take issue with the pistol in short yardage situations. You can run power from the pistol. No difference in RB depth, the qb just takes a different path.

2-4...your guess is as good as mine.
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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If you're ever in the Live Chat during games you'll see how angry I get when we do this. Literally 90% of the time we throw an incomplete pass on 1st down we run a dive on 2nd for 0-3 yards. It's maddening. If you're going to run on 2nd and 10 at least get creative.

I'm with you. when we have a incompletion on 1st down. Then run up the gut out of the pistol for zilch. My head about blows off my shoulders. For two reasons. One, it's stupid. Two, I HATE the pistol.
 

Hammer Of The Gods

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I don't take issue with the pistol in short yardage situations. You can run power from the pistol. No difference in RB depth, the qb just takes a different path.
2-4...your guess is as good as mine.

I understand the positive arguments on the pistol and it's proven that it can be successful. By other teams! We haven't done anything, at least consistent, with it. I just don't like it, my argument has to why is basically I feel that it's to easy to read from s defensive stand point. We don't have much variety out of it and it makes your guard, quarterback , read so much easier if your linebacker. But just like anything else, if we ran it with success I'd be behind it, we just look like hell in it and I prefer a different offense, but I prefer success above all.
 

BGIF

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BGIF, if Kelly overruled many of his calls do you think it would make more sense to find a different coordinator instead of overruling all the time? If not, and he agrees, i feel like the results on the field show some problems so maye kelly should still find someone different and let them handle it. As a head coach hes gotta find a way to get good play calls out there. I feel like its something that requires some type of change. But just my opinion on it

I wasn't commenting on the quality of Martin's calls but rather ISD's "confirmation".

Preseason Kelly commented about Rees rolling out to give a different look and keep the defense from teeing off on the pocket. Rees did make some good throws rolling out but I think if someone looked at the percentages they'd find his performance drops. The point of the rollout comment is Kelly pointed it out. Maybe it was Martin's idea, mabye Diaco's, or Kelly's BUT to keep calling it as the season progresses means Kelly agrees with the call.

Buster commented a couple fo posts ago about throwing over the middle. In the previous seasons that was a trouble area for Rees. However with Niklas, Koyack, and Robinson those are some awful big targets to keep the defense honest. You don't have to throw 5 slants a game but you could throw a couple as well as a TE Drag off the 12 package. Play action into the line and hit either TE on a delay.

Irishpat harps on Rees 55% completion rate as horrible even though it's 3 points higher than Joe Montana's and Rees TD/INT ratio is head and shoulder's better than Joe's. Rees had a 63% completion rate through his first 3 years. He throws a much longer ball this year. He has more big plays this year by game 6 or 7 than he and Golson together last year. But his completion rate has suffered because of it. My point here is that Martin's doing to stretch the field vertically or Kelly's? It is a change of strategy.

Unfortunately going back to Buster's comment we've stretched the field with the 30 yd passes but do we then exploit the under? I don't chart plays but it doesn't seem like we do. Short or long. The intermediate passes strike me (and I may be mistaken) as mostly out or sidleine patterns but added the horizontal component of the throw it ends up being a 25 or 30 yard throw giving defenders time to adjust. To minimize INT's Rees is instructed to throw for the outside shoulder. This also lowers the completion rate. Think but over the season as to how many balls were caught ... of of bounds or were just outside the grasp of the receiver who was fighting to say inside the boundary.

Again a change of strategy that has worked with mixed results. Martin's call or Kelly's?

On the Intentional Grounding call (which I called when he threw it) was that a bad decision or following a directive? Another poster lamented why didn't he run? Perhaps judgement but more likely to me because he's been told not to. On the play there was pressure starting to come from the left but he saw it and it wasn't imminent. He turned to the right, looked downfield, then threw it OB. I could be wrong but I don't recall pressure from the right or the center. Perhaps he saw did out of camerview. Perhaps he saw nobody trying to break coverage. I don't know. I took it as a bad decision but what was he coached to do ... by Martin or Kelly.

I like the inside handoffs to T.J. on the end around. It worked well to we used it too often. Was that a Martin wrinkle or Kelly? I don't know. I do know I would have liked to see them fake that play after the big run and hit the TE from that side on a delay while the defenders were following T.J.

We've complained for 4 seasons now about the lack of a rushing game. Not just the Call and Haul but a RB rushing game. People blamed it on Molnar. He's gone. Aside from the obvious Golson rushes did the RBs last year really run more? Was there a running game ID?

Did we run the empty backfield so often under Molnar?

I don't like the empty backfield either as it takes away play action as well any threat of a run. Given our OLines low sack allowance and the size of the WR/TE Corps (and speed) of a few, 5 receivers does present a challenge to most of our competition. But has it?

I've not seen any stats on that setup just my perception. Again is that Martin or Kelly?

I don't know. but we were largely vanilla under Molnar when Martin wasn't even on staff.

Molnar and Martin were both Kelly's hires. Are or were they calling the shots or implementing the boss's plan?
 

Wild Bill

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I understand the positive arguments on the pistol and it's proven that it can be successful. By other teams! We haven't done anything, at least consistent, with it. I just don't like it, my argument has to why is basically I feel that it's to easy to read from s defensive stand point. We don't have much variety out of it and it makes your guard, quarterback , read so much easier if your linebacker. But just like anything else, if we ran it with success I'd be behind it, we just look like hell in it and I prefer a different offense, but I prefer success above all.

I think it helps Tommy with short and intermediate routes bc he doesn't have to take his drop and its easier to see the field. One thing they do well is the hook or quick out to TJ. It's money on 3rd and 2-5. And I assume that's why we stay with pistol on third and short. If the backers cheat, play pitch and catch with TJ. If they play honest, run to niklas where you probably have a mismatch. If Tommy could run, we'd have a third option, making it very difficult on the defense. And if my aunt had...You get the point.
 

BillyIrish

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My only gripe with Kelly since he has been at ND has been play calling, specifically in the red zone. He loves to throw on early downs in goal to go situations and at times it forces multiple pints of Guiness to be consumed at once. This has not been a trend of 2013. But rather a hallmark since his arrival in 2010.

Saturday, the second half abondoning of a run game was inexcuseable. Which shifted my focus to the fact that lining Rees up in a traditional shotgun formation and expecting a dominant rushing attack is pure lunacy. Inside/Outside zone plays without a QB run threat aren't nearly as difficult to defend with even numbers in the box. I wish I would have broken down the number of outside zone runs vs power or pistol formation run plays before deleting the game from the DVR. Kelly acknowledged as much in the post game in saying the "game plan was to get the ball on the perimeter." As noted in this thread, I believe Rees benefits most from a power/play action game rather than the zone system we have in place. Not saying you can't run power out of traditional shotgun in the inside/outside zone scheme. Just saying a running threat at QB would suit the system.

I will say this though. Chuck Martin did not get enough credit last season for continually putting golson in a position where he could succeed. It truly was a balanced attack. The game @Oklahoma really stands out as a game that Martin kept the offense "on schedule" and Oklahoma off balance.
 

MPClinton22

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One thing that has been seriously bothering me. People claim that "at Cincinnati BK had to put an exciting product on the field to get more people to come to games." I think that is complete BS. Yes, it helped get people to come to games, but having an explosive offense ALSO HELPS YOUR TEAM WIN GAMES. It just makes no sense to me that now, with superior athletes to what he had at Cincy, our offense has never been able to really have any identity or explosiveness. The "winning games is all that matters at ND" argument regarding our lack of an explosive offense is just crap. With an explosive offense and a decent defense, a football team wins games.

And this isn't to say that I would love to have some run and gun offense that scores a ton of points but puts our defense in a terrible position by keeping them on the field for 40+ minutes per game. Rather, I'm just sick of this offense having no identity. If we want to be Wisconsin and lean almost completely on our run game, so be it. But have a friggin offensive philosophy and stick to it. It's time for ND to go back to being the aggressors. Our offensive gameplan is so reactive that it's insane. We have athletes, lets go out there and make the OTHER team play OUR game. Maybe I'm being too simplistic about this (I probably am), but it's just so frustrating seeing this offense lack any semblance of an identity.
 
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Crazy Balki

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I wasn't commenting on the quality of Martin's calls but rather ISD's "confirmation".

Preseason Kelly commented about Rees rolling out to give a different look and keep the defense from teeing off on the pocket. Rees did make some good throws rolling out but I think if someone looked at the percentages they'd find his performance drops. The point of the rollout comment is Kelly pointed it out. Maybe it was Martin's idea, mabye Diaco's, or Kelly's BUT to keep calling it as the season progresses means Kelly agrees with the call.

Buster commented a couple fo posts ago about throwing over the middle. In the previous seasons that was a trouble area for Rees. However with Niklas, Koyack, and Robinson those are some awful big targets to keep the defense honest. You don't have to throw 5 slants a game but you could throw a couple as well as a TE Drag off the 12 package. Play action into the line and hit either TE on a delay.

Irishpat harps on Rees 55% completion rate as horrible even though it's 3 points higher than Joe Montana's and Rees TD/INT ratio is head and shoulder's better than Joe's. Rees had a 63% completion rate through his first 3 years. He throws a much longer ball this year. He has more big plays this year by game 6 or 7 than he and Golson together last year. But his completion rate has suffered because of it. My point here is that Martin's doing to stretch the field vertically or Kelly's? It is a change of strategy.

Unfortunately going back to Buster's comment we've stretched the field with the 30 yd passes but do we then exploit the under? I don't chart plays but it doesn't seem like we do. Short or long. The intermediate passes strike me (and I may be mistaken) as mostly out or sidleine patterns but added the horizontal component of the throw it ends up being a 25 or 30 yard throw giving defenders time to adjust. To minimize INT's Rees is instructed to throw for the outside shoulder. This also lowers the completion rate. Think but over the season as to how many balls were caught ... of of bounds or were just outside the grasp of the receiver who was fighting to say inside the boundary.

Again a change of strategy that has worked with mixed results. Martin's call or Kelly's?

On the Intentional Grounding call (which I called when he threw it) was that a bad decision or following a directive? Another poster lamented why didn't he run? Perhaps judgement but more likely to me because he's been told not to. On the play there was pressure starting to come from the left but he saw it and it wasn't imminent. He turned to the right, looked downfield, then threw it OB. I could be wrong but I don't recall pressure from the right or the center. Perhaps he saw did out of camerview. Perhaps he saw nobody trying to break coverage. I don't know. I took it as a bad decision but what was he coached to do ... by Martin or Kelly.

I like the inside handoffs to T.J. on the end around. It worked well to we used it too often. Was that a Martin wrinkle or Kelly? I don't know. I do know I would have liked to see them fake that play after the big run and hit the TE from that side on a delay while the defenders were following T.J.

We've complained for 4 seasons now about the lack of a rushing game. Not just the Call and Haul but a RB rushing game. People blamed it on Molnar. He's gone. Aside from the obvious Golson rushes did the RBs last year really run more? Was there a running game ID?

Did we run the empty backfield so often under Molnar?

I don't like the empty backfield either as it takes away play action as well any threat of a run. Given our OLines low sack allowance and the size of the WR/TE Corps (and speed) of a few, 5 receivers does present a challenge to most of our competition. But has it?

I've not seen any stats on that setup just my perception. Again is that Martin or Kelly?

I don't know. but we were largely vanilla under Molnar when Martin wasn't even on staff.

Molnar and Martin were both Kelly's hires. Are or were they calling the shots or implementing the boss's plan?

I'll be honest. I think when Rees leaves, the playcalling they are presenting right now will work. With Malik or Golson at QB, they can actually run an empty back set, with the option to run out of that package and/or bail out a play. In addition, both have significantly stronger and more accurate arms than Rees. And finally, as good as this year's receiver corp is, next year's will be 1000x better. Utilizing more of Folston and Bryant will be key next season to make the offense more 2-dimensional. This offense can go full-on Air-Raid, but not with Rees.
 
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Buster Bluth

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That's hard to do when you're interviewing in Philadelphia and then bolt the country immediately afterwards. I have a seriously hard time believing Kelly was committed to ND this offseason and it's showing big time.

In like January?!
 

gspjeb

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Kelly coaches the way he coaches.....it absolutely works when you have a mobile QB that is the run threat that makes the other team respect you. Rees checks off and changes calls a lot and I am not sure how much that changes the overall effect.
There certainly have been some questionable calls made this year.

Ground and pound is not something that I am sure Kelly has used in the past with any kind of consistency. He was at the forefront of the modern spread and teams have since adjusted to it as much as they can. A "pro style" QB not only makes the system less than optimal, it makes it predictable and easily defended. When Golson/Zaire are inserted back into this system, we will all be saying that coach is a genius. Have faith.
 

dublinirish

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i dont really want to wade into this too much but one thing that irks me is when Kelly will say "well they put 8 in the box and that meant we couldnt run the ball" Im no expert but i would think Stanford and Wisconsin sees the odd 8 in the box and runs the ball just fine. I just dont understand this reactive play calling policy at all. Would love to see a ND offense come out with a "we dont give a crap what you do we are gonna run you guys over" kind of attitude.
 

BGIF

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i dont really want to wade into this too much but one thing that irks me is when Kelly will say "well they put 8 in the box and that meant we couldnt run the ball" Im no expert but i would think Stanford and Wisconsin sees the odd 8 in the box and runs the ball just fine. I just dont understand this reactive play calling policy at all. Would love to see a ND offense come out with a "we dont give a crap what you do we are gonna run you guys over" kind of attitude.


SU and WIS are geared for smash mouth. ND isn't.

Rushing YPG YPA TDs
WIS #10 280 6.49 28
SU #28 205 4.82 18
ND #86 139 4.56 9

WIS and SU use the run to set up the pass.

ND uses the pass to set up the run. ND's OLine has shown outstanding pass protection. One of the best in the nation, possibly the best considering ND's immobile QB and the other sack leaders are heavy run teams.

If ND had attacking road graders instead of reactionary pass protectors AND a back like Gaffney and a QB like Hogan who is a successful runner, they would run on 3rd and short and down at the goal line. But they don't have either ... right now. The fact that ND doesn't run QB sneaks should make it obvious. Even slow QBs can take one step and fall forward ... IF the OLine drives the DLine off the LOS. ND doesn't.

In college football it's tough to have an OLine proficient at both as they only get 20 hours a week to practice.

Look at Holtz in the mid 90's. He knew he couldn't recruit key skill players to a triple option attack so he tried to switch to a pro set but neither his OLine or WRs were suitable for it (and the OLine coach did not want to coach pass protection). Then he tried to force fit highly talented pro set QB into an option attack when that QB ran as slow as Rees. The results weren't pretty.

When Quinn was QB he scored a bunch of TDs on QB Draws. Rees has done that once and only because the defenders were astonished to see him run.
 

kmoose

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I'll be honest. I think when Rees leaves, the playcalling they are presenting right now will work. With Malik or Golson at QB, they can actually run an empty back set, with the option to run out of that package and/or bail out a play. In addition, both have significantly stronger and more accurate arms than Rees. And finally, as good as this year's receiver corp is, next year's will be 1000x better. Utilizing more of Folston and Bryant will be key next season to make the offense more 2-dimensional. This offense can go full-on Air-Raid, but not with Rees.

Let's get this straight, before it grows legs; we don't know jackshyt about Zaire yet, other than he was highly regarded coming out of High School. No one on this board, that isn't at practice everyday, has the first clue how well Zaire is coming along, or isn't. So let's not go talking like he would be an automatic upgrade to Rees.
 

ulukinatme

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Let's get this straight, before it grows legs; we don't know jackshyt about Zaire yet, other than he was highly regarded coming out of High School. No one on this board, that isn't at practice everyday, has the first clue how well Zaire is coming along, or isn't. So let's not go talking like he would be an automatic upgrade to Rees.

We do know that he scored the only TD at the Spring Game this year :razz:
 

ThePiombino

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Let's get this straight, before it grows legs; we don't know jackshyt about Zaire yet, other than he was highly regarded coming out of High School. No one on this board, that isn't at practice everyday, has the first clue how well Zaire is coming along, or isn't. So let's not go talking like he would be an automatic upgrade to Rees.

Let's get THIS straight:

Zaire's skill set >>>>>>>> Rees' skill set. Reports are that he has picked up the play book VERY well, especially considering only one year in the system. I would venture to guess that he would be an upgrade by year's end at the latest.
 

ulukinatme

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Let's get THIS straight:

Zaire's skill set >>>>>>>> Rees' skill set. Reports are that he has picked up the play book VERY well, especially considering only one year in the system. I would venture to guess that he would be an upgrade by year's end at the latest.

While I'm very eager to see what Zaire can do next year (And I was hoping to burn the redshirt halfway through this season after seeing the way Hendrix performed), I'm not sure we can trust all the reports we've gotten. By all accounts, the light was supposed to come on for Hendrix this season according to reports coming from camp. He was "getting the little things" right, paying attention to details. After watching him on the field, I think he's actually struggled more this season than he has in limited action previous seasons. There were also some reports from camp how strong the interior linebacker corps would be, and they've struggled at times this season.
 

IrishLax

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I hope this happens...

I don't know... part of me does, part of me asked who would replace him at OC and be better? Here's an article I just put up on TP about what's best for next year and moving forward:
The Hard Road Back | Irish Turning Point

And here is an excerpt on Martin:
Similarly, while Chuck Martin might not be an offensive guru, replacing him outright with someone who isn’t on Kelly’s wavelength could have disastrous results. Would you rather continue building with Everett Golson or roll the dice on a brand new direction? Over Golson’s last 5 regular season games he had a QBR of 81.9 which would put him about dead even with Teddy Bridgewater this year and 10th in the country. Do you really want to scrap the coaches and schemes that had him playing at that level as a redshirt freshman?

Program stability is very underrated in college football, IMO.
 

PANDFAN

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also BK has the veto power on play calling...so BK is just as much to blame as Martin if you view him as a liability in play calling
 

kmoose

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Let's get THIS straight:

Zaire's skill set >>>>>>>> Rees' skill set.

You don't know that. You are basing it on "reports". As ulunkinatme pointed out, those same "reports" said that Hendrix, and the Inside Linebackers, were going to be solid this year.
 
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