Jonathan Martin-Richie Incognito

[wizards8507]

I know that it is mandated, but we have proven out countless times throughout our organization that effective leadership, which promotes a healthy work environment and inspires employees, leads to greater financial performance.

So, yes, it is mandated. But, you rushed to a conclusion not knowing one damn thing about the company nor the training that takes place and assumed it to be some BS regulatory requirement. Culture matters and harassment leads to negative culture.

My mistake. You're the one person on the planet who enjoys the annual sexual harassment semniar about what "crosses the line."

I'm not talking about leadership training that develops actual skills. I'm talking about the "don't send porn to you coworkers" training.

 

[RDU Irish]

Can we just have one "don't be a dumba$$" gif that managers use in their email signature to cover all the other BS we have to waste time on?

 

[irishpat183]

None of know why they didn't, but my hunch is that nobody wanted to be the leader and put themselves on the line to stop it. The culture in the NFL is one that fosters a meathead mentality and where contracts are not guaranteed and you could be out of a job at any moment. That promotes someone to look out for themselves first and others second. Maybe they saw it as an opportunity to take over Martin's spot. Maybe they didn't want to become the target of harassment. Maybe the coaches promoted the behavior and they felt like going against it put their *** on the line too.

In any case, we don't know right now. But, I am willing to wager that the culture around that organization promoted this type of behavior and there wasn't one person strong enough to buck that trend.

I disagree. I think maybe Martin was playing along and everyone thought it was all good.

And as far as the NFL culture..it is what it is. What do you think it is going to happen when you put a bunch jacked up dudes, less than 50% with a college education, on the field to bash each others heads in?? That IS who you're looking for. Tough guys that don't take ****. Sorry, but I don't want the Johnathan Martins playing for my team.

I want the weak guys weeded out.

 

[Ndaccountant]

My mistake. You're the one person on the planet who enjoys the annual sexual harassment semniar about what "crosses the line."

I'm not talking about leadership training that develops actual skills. I'm talking about the "don't send porn to you coworkers" training.

Again, you are assuming.

It's one in the same within my organization. The reason why, is conveyed perfectly by your response to me. If people approach it they way you do, there is no value to be derived. However, if you prove to people the value that can come from treating others with respect and creating a proper work environment where everyone feels valued, people will take action to produce that culture.

 

[pkt77242]

Yet players thoughtout the NFL's history have handled it.....NOW it's bullying and a problem?

Saves lives? You're joking, right?


Again, maybe football and the NFL isn't a place for Johnathan Martin. A career in protesting de-forestation or saving the whales is probably a better fit





And who's to say that Martin wasn't going along with it before and just decided that today he wasn't in the mood?

Who says it was a "problem"? Maybe Martin just had a bad day?


Again, not condoning the language Incognito used...but that's really a moot point.

Pat just because something has always been done doesn't make it right. History is littered with. A bunch of **** that had been done for a long time but we now find reprehensible.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I disagree. I think maybe Martin was playing along and everyone thought it was all good.

And as far as the NFL culture..it is what it is. What do you think it is going to happen when you put a bunch jacked up dudes, less than 50% with a college education, on the field to bash each others heads in?? That IS who you're looking for. Tough guys that don't take ****. Sorry, but I don't want the Johnathan Martins playing for my team.

I want the weak guys weeded out.

That's your opinion and that's fine.

But I would like to point out that Martin thrived under Jim Harbaugh & David Shaw while at Stanford, which by the way has been one of the toughest programs for the last 6 years. In fact, Shaw has been quoted that he is happy Martin is coming forward. My point is, you can create an attitude of toughness without resorting to these measures. If Martin was tough enough to play for Harbaugh and in the culture he fosters, I am sure he can do it in the NFL.

 

[irishpat183]

I'm not worried about Pat being able to handle it. I'm worried about the children reading this thread.

Look, my main takeaway from Pat's argument is that Martin does have some culpability in this. Whether it's from naivety, ignorance, mental illness, being a pussy....we don't know. Pat's never justified Incognito's words or actions, but Martin should have stood up to him, told a teammate, told a coach, told the GM, told his agent, told the union-- done something. From what we know right NOW, it seems as though Martin was simply fed up (understandably so)...and just quit/walked away from his team. That's not a mature decision either. Criticizing Martin does not equal an acceptance of Incognito. Incognito has the lions' share of the blame...but Martin has some as well. And again, this is based what we know of the situation right now. If Martin told the union, team management, coaches, and teammates, then I'll sing a different tune.

And again, I guess I find it odd that, in a thread about bullying, a moderator has resorted to personal name calling (something nobody else is doing)...then justifying it by saying he is those things and he can handle it. Are Incognito's words justified if Martin is, in fact, the things Incognito called him? Or if, in fact, Martin can handle it?

Exactly! Had Martin reached out for help (which from interviews, he didn't) and not played along...I might be inclined to say Incognito takes most the blame here.

But, there is something missing here about Martins reaction and the fact that no teammates are coming to his defense. You can blame the "culture" or lack of "leadership" (which is crap)...

Remember what set him off?? It was not Incognito...but the ENTIRE Oline getting up from the lunch table when he sat down to eat with them.

Probably a joke.


I think Martin had just as much to do with this as the other guys on the team. He just went "bitch mode" that day and got his wittle feewings hurt.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

I disagree. I think maybe Martin was playing along and everyone thought it was all good.

And as far as the NFL culture..it is what it is. What do you think it is going to happen when you put a bunch jacked up dudes, less than 50% with a college education, on the field to bash each others heads in?? That IS who you're looking for. Tough guys that don't take ****. Sorry, but I don't want the Johnathan Martins playing for my team.

I want the weak guys weeded out.

I agree, man up and beat the **** out of your teammates. Show him who the real tough guy is.

 

[woolybug25]

Regardless of the "culture" pat keeps talking about (which is hilarious, like he knows what the culture is in an NFL locker room.) it is still a business. A business ran by the owners. The owners that make the rules and abide by federal employment regulations.

This type of behavior, in any industry or company, is unacceptable. Regardless of Martin's actions before or after, Incognito still made the rascist remarks. He still made death threats. He still broke the rules that were firmly in the NFL employee rulebook.

Period...

Here is an example. There is a flirtatious girl receptionist in your office that flirts with everybody. She usually takes the cat-calls, etc in stride. But one day, you say the wrong thing and it pisses her off. When she goes to the boss to file a sexual harrassment complaint, you're excuse better the hell not be, "she never said anything until now and she led us to believe that she was cool with it". The world doesn't work that way.

 

[NDBoiler]

I'm not worried about Pat being able to handle it. I'm worried about the children reading this thread.

Look, my main takeaway from Pat's argument is that Martin does have some culpability in this. Whether it's from naivety, ignorance, mental illness, being a pussy....we don't know. Pat's never justified Incognito's words or actions, but Martin should have stood up to him, told a teammate, told a coach, told the GM, told his agent, told the union-- done something. From what we know right NOW, it seems as though Martin was simply fed up (understandably so)...and just quit/walked away from his team. That's not a mature decision either. Criticizing Martin does not equal an acceptance of Incognito. Incognito has the lions' share of the blame...but Martin has some as well. And again, this is based what we know of the situation right now. If Martin told the union, team management, coaches, and teammates, then I'll sing a different tune.

And again, I guess I find it odd that, in a thread about bullying, a moderator has resorted to personal name calling (something nobody else is doing)...then justifying it by saying he is those things and he can handle it. Are Incognito's words justified if Martin is, in fact, the things Incognito called him? Or if, in fact, Martin can handle it?

If you admittedly may not know all the facts, how can you be so sure as to assign any blame to Martin at this time with any degree of certainty? For all we know, he might have tried to report it as you yourself stated and nothing significant came of it (not that that is a valid cause for blame on Martin anyways if he didn't report it).

 

[ACamp1900]

This whole thing is kind of surreal to me. I honestly don’t know what to think… Of course this is comparing young men to professionals but I played High School ball in a pretty bad area, and heard it all… in high school… things that could be deemed death threats, every racial slur you could think of… slams on family members… you name it… and yes, it carried over off the field into neighborhoods and such at times. So I do see some of the ‘culture’ thing here.

Except, I don’t remember much, if any, of it being teammate to teammate… It was always from one team to the other... OR being asked/ordered from the coaching staff, as it now sounds is the case here…

Every aspect of this thing is just strange to me…

Bottom line is this is a bunch of grown men here… again, every angle is just strange.

 

[irishog77]

If you admittedly may not know all the facts, how can you be so sure as to assign any blame to Martin at this time with any degree of certainty? For all we know, he might have tried to report it as you yourself stated and nothing significant came of it (not that that is a valid cause for blame on Martin anyways if he didn't report it).

Because just walking out on your team, as I said, isn't a mature response either. Teammates were depending on him.

But as I said in my post:

[QUOTE]If Martin told the union, team management, coaches, and teammates, then I'll sing a different tune.[/QUOTE]

Regardless of the outcome of him telling those parties.


But if we're going to play the "you don't know all the facts" game, then this thread (and almost every thread on this site) should be shut down now.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

Because just walking out on your team, as I said, isn't a mature response either. Teammates were depending on him.

But as I said in my post:

[QUOTE]If Martin told the union, team management, coaches, and teammates, then I'll sing a different tune.

let's keep in mind that this is an employment situation. i know the chemistry of a professional sports team is different than a typical office, but walking out isn't necessarily a maturity issue. if a coworker was messing with me, one of the things i would consider is quitting. nothing requires him to fix it himself or tell the staff/front office/unions. he didn't want to play for miami anymore because there wasn't a professional environment. bulllying and bully resolution options aside, who wants to work with someone like incognito in any setting (including the NFL)?

 

[NDBoiler]

Because just walking out on your team, as I said, isn't a mature response either. Teammates were depending on him.

So he should put his job/co-workers above his own mental health? I think you're downplaying the seriousness of the act committed against him if that is the case.

But as I said in my post:

[QUOTE]If Martin told the union, team management, coaches, and teammates, then I'll sing a different tune.

Regardless of the outcome of him telling those parties.

I understand, but this doesn't address the fact that you are assigning blame to Martin prior to having the facts in this particular instance.


But if we're going to play the "you don't know all the facts" game, then this thread (and almost every thread on this site) should be shut down now.

I agree that is tough to deliniate in regards to the board in general, but I am just challenging your assignment of blame to Martin in this case, as I see it being unsubstantiated and without supporting factual evidence.[/QUOTE]

EDIt: Sorry Hog, I suck at properly posting and adding to previous posts, hope my bolded comments are intelligible.

 

[Kanye West]

Please tell me you're not buying into this "6'5 300 pounder getting bullied", crap.

With the mental issues of NFL players, I do actually buy it. But you're right, something is not adding up.

 

[ACamp1900]

With the mental issues of NFL players, I do actually buy it. But you're right, something is not adding up.

Hard to put into words right? but yeah, something about this is just beyond odd...

 

[irishog77]

[/B]


let's keep in mind that this is an employment situation. i know the chemistry of a professional sports team is different than a typical office, but walking out isn't necessarily a maturity issue. if a coworker was messing with me, one of the things i would consider is quitting. nothing requires him to fix it himself or tell the staff/front office/unions. he didn't want to play for miami anymore because there wasn't a professional environment. bulllying and bully resolution options aside, who wants to work with someone like incognito in any setting (including the NFL)?

I agree.

But if walking away was, essentially, his first and only action, then yeah, there's a problem with that too. At least ATTEMPT to do something about it before it comes to simply not showing up one day and quitting on your team.

Your right, nothing REQUIRES him to tell anybody...but that's not how human cooperation and relationships work.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

With the mental issues of NFL players, I do actually buy it. But you're right, something is not adding up.

has martin actually said "i was bullied" or did the media run with that. if martin isn't driving the "i was bullied" train, then there's no reason to question the martin's character as a very large man being a victim of bullying. while the media calls it bullying, martin could just see it as being around an ******* all the time. who wants that in their lives?

 

[Kanye West]

Hard to put into words right? but yeah, something about this is just beyond odd...

Since Martin did go internally, and the story blew up not because of him I have to side with him. No one knows how someone's mind works and especially an NFL players who seemingly can do just a drastic thing out of nowhere. Now, if I am right, his teammates are P.O.S from an external point of view.

 

[Kanye West]

has martin actually said "i was bullied" or did the media run with that. if martin isn't driving the "i was bullied" train, then there's no reason to question the martin's character as a very large man being a victim of bullying. while the media calls it bullying, martin could just see it as being around an ******* all the time. who wants that in their lives?

Media basically has ran with everything after Martin went to the Dolphins. I don't think Martin has spoken publicly.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

I agree.

But if walking away was, essentially, his first and only action, then yeah, there's a problem with that too. At least ATTEMPT to do something about it before it comes to simply not showing up one day and quitting on your team.

Your right, nothing REQUIRES him to tell anybody...but that's not how human cooperation and relationships work.

there are situations where working through the issue at work makes sense. but put yourself in the shoes of the new guy (less than two years at there) who was dealing with racist remarks and "i'm going to kill you" (in any context) from a coworker. do you stay at that job? if there are job opportunities in the same industry where you don't have to deal with the HR disaster and divisiveness of coworkers backing one guy or another, do you leave for the place without that mess?

why even bother working on cooperation and relationships. if the new rumor that the coaches asked incognito to start picking on martin to fire him up, then clearly it wouldn't have done any good to point out the problem to his bosses. it all just adds up to dealing with horrible people everyday.

 

[irishog77]

To clarify my point (based on what we know...or knew from earlier this morning):

Is Incognito justified in saying what he did? No.

Is Martin justified in walking away from the Dolphins? Sure.

Is not ever telling anybody about what is going on, then quitting on your team (seemingly out of the blue) one day the best choice? No.

Did Martin have to tell anybody what is going on? No.

Did the employer know what was going on? Unknown

Will a problem ever get fixed by an employer if they don't know it's going on? No.

Is this a workplace incident? Sure.

Since it is a workplace incident, and Martin has a contract, are the employer (Dolphins) and employee (Martin) obligated to do certain things, outlined by that contract? Yes.

In professional football (and many other professions), is a considerable amount of time and money invested on a player/employee of Martin's caliber? Yes.

Is it in the Dolphins best interest to have Martin performing at peak-level production? Yes.

Is it in the Dolphins best interest to have all players/employees performing at peak-level production? Yes.

Does a player/employee not showing up one day, regardless of circumstances, and perhaps never again, help or hurt overall production? Hurt.

Were there other options available to Martin than no-showing? Yes.

Did Martin explore these options? Not from what we've heard/Unknown.

If Martin tried other avenues of fixing the problem other than quitting, is he justified in quitting? Yes.

 

[ACamp1900]

Reports have come out that the staff ordered JI to 'toughen up' Martin correct?? That's what I heard coming in to work today...

One thing I don't believe for one second is that the Dolphins staff and even upper management were completely unaware of any of this until it broke... may be dumb but not stupid kind of stuff right there.

 

[irishpat183]

has martin actually said "i was bullied" or did the media run with that. if martin isn't driving the "i was bullied" train, then there's no reason to question the martin's character as a very large man being a victim of bullying. while the media calls it bullying, martin could just see it as being around an ******* all the time. who wants that in their lives?

He never said the word "bully"...again, Media circus.

 

[irishpat183]

Media basically has ran with everything after Martin went to the Dolphins. I don't think Martin has spoken publicly.

Hell, Martin didn't even go to the Dolphins!!! I forgot who broke it first, but Martin just walked out and never came back. The Dolphins had to reach out to him.

 

[irishpat183]

Regardless of the "culture" pat keeps talking about (which is hilarious, like he knows what the culture is in an NFL locker room.) it is still a business. A business ran by the owners. The owners that make the rules and abide by federal employment regulations.

This type of behavior, in any industry or company, is unacceptable. Regardless of Martin's actions before or after, Incognito still made the rascist remarks. He still made death threats. He still broke the rules that were firmly in the NFL employee rulebook.

Period...

Here is an example. There is a flirtatious girl receptionist in your office that flirts with everybody. She usually takes the cat-calls, etc in stride. But one day, you say the wrong thing and it pisses her off. When she goes to the boss to file a sexual harrassment complaint, you're excuse better the hell not be, "she never said anything until now and she led us to believe that she was cool with it". The world doesn't work that way.

How do you know?


And after reading the texts that Incognito sent...

"Hey wassup you half-nigg**, you're still a rookie, and I will kill you"


Seems like they had a playful banter. You could say that text was playful banter just as much as you could assume it was for real.

 

[irishpat183]

I agree, man up and beat the **** out of your teammates. Show him who the real tough guy is.

That's not what I said. Pull your head outta your ***.


Martin should've just stood up for himslef and told Incognito to **** off. He's a professional.

 

[Folsteam_Ahead]

That's not what I said. Pull your head outta your ***.


Martin should've just stood up for himslef and told Incognito to **** off. He's a professional.

telling someone to **** off really screams "professional"

 

[pkt77242]

How do you know?


And after reading the texts that Incognito sent...

"Hey wassup you half-nigg**, you're still a rookie, and I will kill you"


Seems like they had a playful banter. You could say that text was playful banter just as much as you could assume it was for real.

Pat you have one Hell of an idea of playful banter.

Secondly does the fact that reports are coming out that the coaching staff told Icognito to "toughen" up Martin change yor opinion any? There are even reports that the coaches encouraged hazing. In that environment how the Hell could Martin keep it internal when the coaching staff is part of the problem.

 

[ACamp1900]

telling someone to **** off really screams "professional"

Depends on the industry...