We are slow, Longo must go?

[Cackalacky]

Thanks for the discussion. I'll keep to myself about Longo.

It's still too simple of an excuse to say 'well it's the athletes coming in, not the S/C program', not just for Longo/ND, but S/C coaches everywhere. With that theory, it'd be hard to ever say a S/C coach is not maximizing the talent, unless players are just dropping on the field like flies.

But like I said, I don't know enough about reviewing a S/C coach, and it seems like it's not exactly black and white or can be objectively measured.

Dude.....

Through three years at Notre Dame, Longo and Kelly have helped the Irish secure a 23-3 record when leading after three quarters and are 23-3 when entering halftime with a lead. In the two seasons prior to Kelly's and Longo's arrival, Notre Dame was only 9-6 in games it led at halftime.

Longo instilled a grueling strength and conditioning program at Cincinnati that helped the Bearcats become one of the top closing teams in the nation. Under Kelly's watch at Cincinnati, the Bearcats were 32-0 when entering a fourth quarter with a lead and 29-2 when leading at halftime. Since 2005 at Central Michigan, Kelly's teams are 42-1 when leading after three quarters and 39-2 when taking the lead into halftime.

 

[koonja]

Dude.....

That's all due to Longo? Not Head Coaching, Defensive 'bend but don't break' schemes, etc.?

You can't say that. It's impressive and Longo deserves credit for being part of that, but that doesn't mean he's automatically maximizing his athletes. Kelly's a hell of a coach, too.

 

[Cackalacky]

Are you dense or just trolling? I can't tell.

 

[koonja]

Dude.....

I understand that Kelly has a great record when leading.

That does not mean every one of his coaches is the absolute best at their job. It says more about the coaches calling the game than the S/C coach. Again, Longo should get credit for that and I'd definitely put it on his resume if I were him, but there's so much more than the S/C coach that goes into that impressive stat.

To say 'Longo cannot be questioned because BK is really good when leading' is not fair.

 

[ND NYC]

please make it stop...

 

[koonja]

Are you dense or just trolling? I can't tell.

So Longo cannot be questioned because Kelly is really good when winning a game? I've already admitted and thanked you for shedding light. But it doesn't mean Longo is the best S/C we can have. I'm not saying you're not right, you've made strong points, but there's room for argument.

Why is it so hard for you/others to leave it at that?

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

That's all due to Longo? Not Head Coaching, Defensive 'bend but don't break' schemes, etc.?

You can't say that. It's impressive and Longo deserves credit for being part of that, but that doesn't mean he's automatically maximizing his athletes. Kelly's a hell of a coach, too.

So you don't want to give credit to Longo when the team does well deep in games (shown by Cackalacky's objective evidence), but you want to question him when things don't go well.

Got it.

 

[Cackalacky]

I understand that Kelly has a great record when leading.

That does not mean every one of his coaches is the absolute best at their job. It says more about the coaches calling the game than the S/C coach. Again, Longo should get credit for that and I'd definitely put it on his resume if I were him, but there's so much more than the S/C coach that goes into that impressive stat.

That stat simply does not occur with unconditioned athletes that cannot play a full 60 minute football game at a top physical level. I can't tell you how many games we lost under CW because we had no stamina late in games.

 

[koonja]

So you don't want to give credit to Longo when the team does well deep in games (shown by Cackalacky's objective evidence), but you want to question him when things don't go well.

Got it.

I've already said it's impressive. Did you read the post where I said if I were Longo I'd highlight that in my resume? But a lot goes into that, especially BK being a top 5 coach, IMO.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Under Weis and Mendoza, ND constantly ran out of gas in the 4th quarter and lost many games as a result. Under Kelly and Longo, ND is always going strong in the 4th quarter, and has a much better closing % as a result.

Is that closing % entirely due to our improved S&C? Of course not. Football's too complex to attribute success to any one factor. But that's the best objective measure of S&C available, and it strongly indicates that Longo is good at his job.

We don't know enough to get beyond that on an internet message board.

 

[Ironman8]

 

[Cackalacky]

.delete

 

[koonja]

Under Weis and Mendoza, ND constantly ran out of gas in the 4th quarter and lost many games as a result. Under Kelly and Longo, ND is always going strong in the 4th quarter, and has a much better closing % as a result.

Is that closing % entirely due to our improved S&C? Of course not. Football's too complex to attribute success to any one factor. But that's the best objective measure of S&C available, and it strongly indicates that Longo is good at his job.

We don't know enough to get beyond that on an internet message board.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I've said three times now that I did not know that and that's impressive and the S/C coach is definitely a part of that stat. But to say 'we win when in the lead, therefore S/C coach cannot be questioned' is very narrow minded.

I've already conceded that Longo's resume is stronger than I knew. But it does not convince me that he's the best in the business, there's way too much that goes into winning/losing, not to mention the S/C coach is someone you almost never hear about. Could he be the best ND can get? I wouldn't have thought so before the last couple of pages, but you guys are making a strong argument that he's as good as it gets.

If you're mad at that, you have problems.

 

[Cackalacky]

That's exactly what I'm saying. I've said three times now that I did not know that and that's impressive and the S/C coach is definitely a part of that stat. But to say 'we win when in the lead, therefore S/C coach cannot be questioned' is very narrow minded.

I've already conceded that Longo's resume is stronger than I knew. But it does not convince me that he's the best in the business. Could he be? I wouldn't have thought so before the last couple of pages, but you guys are making a strong argument that he's as good as it gets. If you're mad at that, you have problems.

I am not attributing every win to Longo. But the reality is that players who are tired or exhausted or are not in great shape do not perform at a high level at the end of a game. Having the endurance to be solid at the end of a game means you can execute. That is all. The fact you felt that we able to do that and it is impressive is great. Between that and the fact we have shown Longo is doing what he is supposed to do should be enough.

 

[tko]

Make the bad man stop!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cackalacky]

Training & Conditioning : Momentum Media

From 2008 but a very good read.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Under Weis and Mendoza, ND constantly ran out of gas in the 4th quarter and lost many games as a result. Under Kelly and Longo, ND is always going strong in the 4th quarter, and has a much better closing % as a result.

Is that closing % entirely due to our improved S&C? Of course not. Football's too complex to attribute success to any one factor. But that's the best objective measure of S&C available, and it strongly indicates that Longo is good at his job.

We don't know enough to get beyond that on an internet message board.

^THIS!

 

[koonja]

I am not attributing every win to Longo. But the reality is that players who are tired or exhausted or are not in great shape do not perform at a high level at the end of a game. Having the endurance to be solid at the end of a game means you can execute. That is all. The fact you felt that we able to do that and it is impressive is great. Between that and the fact we have shown Longo is doing what he is supposed to do should be enough.

And it is. I said I'll keep my Longo skepticism to myself, as you/others have made good points. But you can't say the points that have been made completely draw the line in the sand. The truth is, it's such a hidden position and it's hard to objectively measure the progress, so it's difficult to say he's doing great/we could do better.

So to call me an idiot/stupid/say I have downsyndrome/ask me to get drunk and drive my car/ etc., is completely over board, and I don't want to be part of a Notre Dame board where that is allowed.

I don't know as much as some of you apparently do about the position! Why does everyone have to think everyone who doesn't see things their way is a complete moron?

Why can't we actually discuss things in a light hearted manner, and educate people who don't apparently know as much as you? I didn't think Longo has been impressive. So be it! Maybe I'm wrong, please tell me why and I'll tell you why I think I'm not sold on him! Let's talk about it rather than pound our chests and bully each other and call names!

Mods, please delete my account.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I've already conceded that Longo's resume is stronger than I knew. But it does not convince me that he's the best in the business, there's way too much that goes into winning/losing, not to mention the S/C coach is someone you almost never hear about. Could he be the best ND can get? I wouldn't have thought so before the last couple of pages, but you guys are making a strong argument that he's as good as it gets

Who's making that argument? This seems to be a strawman you keeping setting up to knock down with the killer retort: "But how do we really know that?"

And you're right, of course. None of us knows enough about the inner workings of ND's recruiting and S&C programs to be able to say that with confidence. But the 4th quarter results/ closing %s are as close to objective proof of Longo's competence as we're going to get.

He's clearly good at his job. I can't say more than that definitively, but I remember what ND was like under Mendoza, and I also can't say anyone else is clearly better. So I wouldn't trade Longo for anyone at this point.

 

[Ironman8]

Who's making that argument? This seems to be a strawman you keeping setting up to knock down with the killer retort: "But how do we really know that?"

And you're right, of course. None of us knows enough about the inner workings of ND's recruiting and S&C programs to be able to say that with confidence. But the 4th quarter results/ closing %s are as close to objective proof of Longo's competence as we're going to get.

He's clearly good at his job. I can't say more than that definitively, but I remember what ND was like under Mendoza, and I also can't say anyone else is clearly better. So I wouldn't trade Longo for anyone at this point.

Bingo.

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[Cackalacky]

And it is. I said I'll keep my Longo skepticism to myself, as you/others have made good points. But you can't say the points that have been made completely draw the line in the sand. The truth is, it's such a hidden position and it's hard to objectively measure the progress, so it's difficult to say he's doing great/we could do better.

So to call me an idiot/stupid/say I have downsyndrome/ask me to get drunk and drive my car/ etc., is completely over board, and I don't want to be part of a Notre Dame board where that is allowed.

I don't know as much as some of you apparently do about the position! Why does everyone have to think everyone who doesn't see things their way is a complete moron?

Why can't we actually discuss things in a light hearted manner, and educate people who don't apparently know as much as you? I didn't think Longo has been impressive. So be it! Maybe I'm wrong, please tell me why and I'll tell you why I think I'm not sold on him! Let's talk about it rather than pound our chests and bully each other and call names!

Mods, please delete my account.

Don't be like that. I have only really jumped in here today. I have tried to answer your questions.

 

[BGIF]

Who's making that argument? This seems to be a strawman you keeping setting up to knock down with the killer retort: "But how do we really know that?"

And you're right, of course. None of us knows enough about the inner workings of ND's recruiting and S&C programs to be able to say that with confidence. ...

Mbeckha did!



BTW, did anybody ever notice Mbeckha and Kuehnja posting at the same time?

 

[TheSunIsRising]

Wayne State University - Mendoza selected as Strength and Conditioning Coach



On a side note Longo's alma mater is Wayne State, where Mendoza is now.

Yeah, but that doesn't explain why Kona couldn't beat Usain Bolt in a 100M race (well, unless both were wearing 100lb weighted vests)

 

[irishpat183]

Kuehnja- Don't let the kool-aid drinkers bring you down.

Ask them to explain Bama and how "strong and conditioned" we were compared to them. Even our best player, Manti, was pushed around like a rag doll.


I don't see any issue with asking a question like this. We seem to get all these great recruits, but can't win jack with them and when we do play in bowl games against other top teams, we get shredded. You can spout off all the stats you want about "leading after this many quarters....blah blah blah"

Our last two bowl wins have been against a terrible Miami team and Hawaii. LSU (elite program) OSU (elite program) FSU (elite program) and Bama (elite program) all beat us. Our last meaningful bowl win against a ranked team was in 1994. 1994.

Sorry, but I'm no longer impressed with going 10-2. I want trophies.


So we SHOULD be questioning why our kids don't perform up to their rankings coming outta high school.

I am honestly starting to think that the guys we recruit (if we can keep them) get a bit of a nudge becuase we're ND. Becuase I can't for the life of me explain how we have all these great classes and underperform the way we do. Unless it's poor coaching/development.



I guess you're just looking for the same answers that I'm looking for. Why? Why can't we win championships if I hear on IE everyday how awesome our coaching staff is and our 3 star WR recruit is and how he's going to "shock some people" with his skill that no other school seemed to notice??

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[irishpat183]

Just when you thought it was safe....I went there.


LOL

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't see any issue with asking a question like this. We seem to get all these great recruits, but can't win jack with them...

What's your definition of "jack [sh!t]"? We've won 82% of our last 22 games. Only a handful of Division I teams have won more, and none have played anything approaching our SoS. Our only 4 losses during that period came against Andrew Luck, EJ Manuel, AJ McCarron, and Devin Gardner.

Our last two bowl wins have been against a terrible Miami team and Hawaii. LSU (elite program) OSU (elite program) FSU (elite program) and Bama (elite program) all beat us. Our last meaningful bowl win against a ranked team was in 1994. 1994.

Kelly's responsible for Weis' failures now?

Sorry, but I'm no longer impressed with going 10-2. I want trophies.

Have you ever been impressed? Honest question. I can't recall the last positive comment you've made about the team, and we just came off our best season in nearly two decades. But you ought to email Kelly about your desire for trophies. He may be under the impression that 9-3 with a trip to the Beef O'Brady Bowl is good enough for ND.

So we SHOULD be questioning why our kids don't perform up to their rankings coming outta high school.

Kelly has outperformed his talent in every year he's been here except 2010, where he basically broke even.

I guess you're just looking for the same answers that I'm looking for. Why? Why can't we win championships if I hear on IE everyday how awesome our coaching staff is and our 3 star WR recruit is and how he's going to "shock some people" with his skill that no other school seemed to notice??

There's no reason we can't win another title. We haven't won one yet because the program was a dumpster fire when Kelly arrived, and he's only had 3 years to turn things around.

Here's my question for you, Pat: Why do you keep doing this? You constantly post absurdly pessimistic stuff here about the team. I show you objective data that contradicts whatever your irrational theory of the moment is, you back down, and then we start all over again the next day.

Is there some therapeutic value for you in kvetching about the team here? Because it's f*cking obnoxious for the rest of us to read and constantly debunk.

 

[aubeirish]

Sorry, but I'm no longer impressed with going 10-2. I want trophies.

In the age of parity, it's a bold statement. What Alabama has been doing in the past 3 years is really hard to believe. It either shows how good of a coach Saban is, or how easy it is to win in the SEC with all that cheating$$$(money bags, low academic standards, greyshirts). Probably both...

Regardless, I think your expectations are not realistic. We can't make a full roster, we have high academic standards and won't pay our players. With these kind of handicaps(which I think is something to be really proud of), going 10-2 every year with a shot at 12-0 every 4-5 years would be super awesome. It just feels like your asking for the moon here.

 

[irishpat183]

In the age of parity, it's a bold statement. What Alabama has been doing in the past 3 years is really hard to believe. It either shows how good of a coach Saban is, or how easy it is to win in the SEC with all that cheating$$$(money bags, low academic standards, greyshirts). Probably both...

Regardless, I think your expectations are not realistic. We can't make a full roster, we have high academic standards and won't pay our players. With these kind of handicaps(which I think is something to be really proud of), going 10-2 every year with a shot at 12-0 every 4-5 years would be super awesome. It just feels like your asking for the moon here.

Maybe I am asking for the moon....but is that too much at this point with our resources, coverage, ROI, and tradition?

Shouldn't we be expecting to win big? Not celebrating a narrow win at Purdue? With all the chest beating around her about our recruiting and what a "genius" Diaco/Kelly is...should we not be winning titles?


Maybe I'm just tired of waiting. Frustration has set in. Watching Bama win three and we can't sniff the same level they play on is very agonizing.

God bless us if we run into an A&M or LSU or Bama in a bowl game this year.