Is it time to scrap the 3-4?

[BGIF]

I think teams that run a 4-3 stick with the 4-3, but teams that run a 3-4 will mix it up with a 4-3 alignment at times. Again, the 3-4 allows for more flexibility and transitioning from a 3-man front to a 4-man front is a lot easier than the other way around, which is one reason why I've become a big fan of the 3-4.

I like the flexibility of the 3-4 and the transition of the 4-3 makes it tougher on O.C.'s to game plan ... providing the defense is paying well.

Isn't it better to be proficient at one scheme than mediocre at both?


In addition to KLM, Te'o, and Motta being gone. Tuitt is not the player he was last year. Many people blame the weight, I question the surgery recovery. With Nix tying up the middle and multiple OLs, our DEs should be making more plays then they are, particularly against the likes of Temple and PU.

I'd prefer a 4th DL at this point to increase pressure and disruptivenes. Fox and Carlo struggled last year with Te'o on the team. I've seen no signs that they've improved. Minimize their time on the field. I realize Jaylon will make mistakes but will he make as many as Carlo and Fox?

 

[NDdomer2]

Actually you proved my point. We don't have to have an elite NG to run the 3-4. Williams was an UDFA and Cwynar chose not to come back for a 5th year. I don't see any reason that Day couldn't be as good as Williams and if Springman is healthy I think he will be serviceable.

I must have taken your point different. But, you are right in that we don't need a 1st round draft pick just guys that understand their job and can be disruptive enough that they need double teamed in run game.

 

[ulukinatme]

I'd prefer a 4th DL at this point to increase pressure and disruptivenes. Fox and Carlo struggled last year with Te'o on the team. I've seen no signs that they've improved. Minimize their time on the field. I realize Jaylon will make mistakes but will he make as many as Carlo and Fox?

So far this year Carlo has looked worse than Jaylon imo, and Carlo has 4 years of experience over him.

 

[Emcee77]

So far this year Carlo has looked worse than Jaylon imo, and Carlo has 4 years of experience over him.

The thing about Carlo is that he looks really good on some plays. He has a knack for running downhill through his gap and making tackles in the backfield.

He's just not great in coverage.

I realize that basically means that he just isn't cut out for Diaco's system. I just felt the urge to say something positive about him, much maligned player that he is. lol.

 

[NDdomer2]

The thing about Carlo is that he looks really good on some plays. He has a knack for running downhill through his gap and making tackles in the backfield.

He's just not great in coverage.

I realize that basically means that he just isn't cut out for Diaco's system. I just felt the urge to say something positive about him, much maligned player that he is. lol.

He will knock your head off. Now if we can keep him in the right position to do it is another story.

 

[Black Irish]

I say we go to a 10-1 D. We put 10 guys on the line to crush the opposing backs in the backfield on every play. We play one deep safety, whose only job will be to do a MC Hammer dance in the end zone while singing "U Can't Touch This."

 

[pkt77242]

I must have taken your point different. But, you are right in that we don't need a 1st round draft pick just guys that understand their job and can be disruptive enough that they need double teamed in run game.

I probably very clear in my original post. Typin on an IPhone at 1am because a helicopter is circling overhead doesn't lead to clear thoughts.

 

[ulukinatme]

I say we go to a 10-1 D. We put 10 guys on the line to crush the opposing backs in the backfield on every play. We play one deep safety, whose only job will be to do a MC Hammer dance in the end zone while singing "U Can't Touch This."

Don't be ridiculous. We can't recruit a NG, let alone a Safety that can dance.

 

[ulukinatme]

I probably very clear in my original post. Typin on an IPhone at 1am because a helicopter is circling overhead doesn't lead to clear thoughts.

So, what did you do?

 

[ulukinatme]

The thing about Carlo is that he looks really good on some plays. He has a knack for running downhill through his gap and making tackles in the backfield.

He's just not great in coverage.

I realize that basically means that he just isn't cut out for Diaco's system. I just felt the urge to say something positive about him, much maligned player that he is. lol.

I understand if you're worried for your safety, but you're among friends here. We won't turn you over to his people

Carlo can be great against the run, but thats only half a team's offense. Of course, some teams throw more than they run it too. While he's the #3 tackler on the team so far behind Fox and Grace respectively, I've also seen a number of missed tackles from him this year already, and arguably his best play of the year has come on Special Teams where he recovered a fumble against Temple. Te'o wasn't missing any tackles last season, and while that's a lofty goal for any LB, I expected more from Carlo as a 5th year that's been starting awhile now.

 

[NDdomer2]

I probably very clear in my original post. Typin on an IPhone at 1am because a helicopter is circling overhead doesn't lead to clear thoughts.

I most likely rushed to give a response about DT play before Nix.

 

[BGIF]

The thing about Carlo is that he looks really good on some plays. He has a knack for running downhill through his gap and making tackles in the backfield.

He's just not great in coverage.

I realize that basically means that he just isn't cut out for Diaco's system. I just felt the urge to say something positive about him, much maligned player that he is. lol.

I don't think anyone here questions Carlo's intestinal fortitude or his intensity. But when it comes to pass defense he looks like one of those nerd characters in a dodgeball movie.

The strengths of ND's defense last year more than compensated for the weaknesses. Right now it seems to me that Nix is carrying almost the entire load on his shoulders. That's too much for any one man.

 

[ulukinatme]

While you can run 3-4 without Nix at NG, I would counter by saying we weren't that effective at running it before he took over as starter. While our 3-4 hasn't exactly been stifling this year with Nix still at the position, it's probably the lack of consistency at ILB that's hurt us. I think our great defense last year had a lot to do with Nix eating up the middle, Manti filling the hole to make a tackle, and the rest of the front seven creating pressure.

 

[Emcee77]

I don't think anyone here questions Carlo's intestinal fortitude or his intensity. But when it comes to pass defense he looks like one of those nerd characters in a dodgeball movie.

The strengths of ND's defense last year more than compensated for the weaknesses. Right now it seems to me that Nix is carrying almost the entire load on his shoulders. That's too much for any one man.

Sure, I didn't mean to criticize anyone for criticizing Carlo. Just wanted to point out that he made some nice plays on Saturday night, even if he's not the guy we really need or want out there, all things considered.

 

[Domer4ever]

So far this year Carlo has looked worse than Jaylon imo, and Carlo has 4 years of experience over him.

I agree. Jaylon playing the WILL in a 43 is of little to no concern in the grand scheme of things.

 

[DCirishfan]

Time to get better talent on defense. Of course you could copy and paste that response for 15 years and it would be accurate. Secondary play has nothing to do with 4 3 or 3 4

 

[DCirishfan]

I don't think anyone here questions Carlo's intestinal fortitude or his intensity. But when it comes to pass defense he looks like one of those nerd characters in a dodgeball movie.

The strengths of ND's defense last year more than compensated for the weaknesses. Right now it seems to me that Nix is carrying almost the entire load on his shoulders. That's too much for any one man.

A nose tackle in 34 can only do so much with regard to playmaking. If we were going to put more on his shoulders it would come as a traditional gap lineman in a 4 3. Talent and speed on defense won't come with our current academic restrictions. Best thing we ever could do is go to a pounding run heavy offense that minimizes defense time on field and utilizes what we can recruit at a very high level which is offensive linemen. Not sexy but effective.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Best thing we ever could do is go to a pounding run heavy offense that minimizes defense time on field and utilizes what we can recruit at a very high level which is offensive linemen. Not sexy but effective.

See: Stanford.

And it's not just OL; we've done a great job recruiting TEs, physical WRs, and (recently) talented RBs.

You may be right that the defensive dominance of 2012 isn't something we'll be able to replicate on a regular basis. We may need to transition to a more smash-mouth offense to help compensate. Though we still don't really have an offensive identity, so it wouldn't be much of a loss.

 

[IrishFan4L]

Time to get better talent on defense. Of course you could copy and paste that response for 15 years and it would be accurate. Secondary play has nothing to do with 4 3 or 3 4

This is absolutely right, football is a violent game & we don't have to many that play very violently. I'm not saying to play the game dirty but we need people on defense that ride that line. Before this past year it had been 23 years since ND & at least 19 since we were legitimate contenders. We don't recruit the same anymore, we would rather have a trophy for the highest graduation rate rather than a National Championship Trophy. We want to live on the memory of Ismail, Brown ,Stonebreaker, Todd Lyght, Chris Zorich, Reggie Brooks, Tony Rice, Jerome Bettis, all or at least half would have never came to ND if we would of had the same requirements then as we do today. Because of this I don't see our Defense as being elite ever especially in consecutive years I mean if Alabama had lost 3 players off there Defense from last year there is no one in the country who wouldn't say there a top 5 ball team but not us. Unless we go back to what won National Championships we'll never be that team again & be perfectly content with a possible National Championship visit every 20-25 years That's definitely not what ND Football is about.

 

[DCirishfan]

Yes we have great TE but the idea we can run a spread offense and compete at the highest level doesn't seem to make of sense. Plus keep in mind we have not had many wr that have done much at the NFL level so there has been some overrated wr talent overall . I still think part of what the sec has dominated is because teams that were more veer based like okie and Nebraska decided they needed a sexier offense. My self I remember when no mater what, we could run the ball on anyone. That to me sets the tone and always will.

 

[DCirishfan]

This is absolutely right, football is a violent game & we don't have to many that play very violently. I'm not saying to play the game dirty but we need people on defense that ride that line. Before this past year it had been 23 years since ND & at least 19 since we were legitimate contenders. We don't recruit the same anymore, we would rather have a trophy for the highest graduation rate rather than a National Championship Trophy. We want to live on the memory of Ismail, Brown ,Stonebreaker, Todd Lyght, Chris Zorich, Reggie Brooks, Tony Rice, Jerome Bettis, all or at least half would have never came to ND if we would of had the same requirements then as we do today. Because of this I don't see our Defense as being elite ever especially in consecutive years I mean if Alabama had lost 3 players off there Defense from last year there is no one in the country who wouldn't say there a top 5 ball team but not us. Unless we go back to what won National Championships we'll never be that team again & be perfectly content with a possible National Championship visit every 20-25 years That's definitely not what ND Football is about.

I would have like to see Paul Johnson's offense with our backs and oline, not saying BK isn't a good coach but I think that would be more of a sustainable formula.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We don't recruit the same anymore, we would rather have a trophy for the highest graduation rate rather than a National Championship Trophy. We want to live on the memory of Ismail, Brown ,Stonebreaker, Todd Lyght, Chris Zorich, Reggie Brooks, Tony Rice, Jerome Bettis, all or at least half would have never came to ND if we would of had the same requirements then as we do today.

Stanford has produced a perennial contender with higher academic standards than ND and similar graduation rates. If they can do it, so can we.

Yes we have great TE but the idea we can run a spread offense and compete at the highest level doesn't seem to make of sense.

There's nothing inherent to a spread offense that would prevent us from executing it well. I only agreed with your suggested change above because we may not be able to sustain SEC-level defensive recruiting, so a physical ball-control-oriented offense may help relieve some pressure when the talent of our defense levels off over the next few years.

Plus keep in mind we have not had many wr that have done much at the NFL level so there has been some overrated wr talent overall.

Um, Golden Tate and Michael Floyd are doing quite well in the NFL, and no team has put more receiving TEs into the NFL recently than ND.

My self I remember when no mater what, we could run the ball on anyone. That to me sets the tone and always will.

The game has changed.

I would have like to see Paul Johnson's offense with our backs and oline, not saying BK isn't a good coach but I think that would be more of a sustainable formula.

Maybe we should start wearing leather helmets again, too.

 

[Wild Bill]

I would have like to see Paul Johnson's offense with our backs and oline, not saying BK isn't a good coach but I think that would be more of a sustainable formula.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Domer4ever]

Time to get better talent on defense. Of course you could copy and paste that response for 15 years and it would be accurate. Secondary play has nothing to do with 4 3 or 3 4

I actually think the formations do matter because if you are able to generate a better pass rush out of a base 43 as some suspect it helps that secondary immensely.

 

[Buster Bluth]

The last page of this thread went full retard.

 

[stlnd01]

While you can run 3-4 without Nix at NG, I would counter by saying we weren't that effective at running it before he took over as starter. While our 3-4 hasn't exactly been stifling this year with Nix still at the position, it's probably the lack of consistency at ILB that's hurt us. I think our great defense last year had a lot to do with Nix eating up the middle, Manti filling the hole to make a tackle, and the rest of the front seven creating pressure.

Right. That's the problem I see with a 3-4 looking beyond this year. No stud NT, no dominant ILB (unless Grace takes a leap this season, but even then, who's next to him?). We can run it, but given the personnel at hand, a 4-3 might make more sense.
It's odd, but the two positions we've had the hardest time recruiting for the last few years are the two positions that are most important to our defense.

 

[Domer4ever]

Right. That's the problem I see with a 3-4 looking beyond this year. No stud NT, no dominant ILB (unless Grace takes a leap this season, but even then, who's next to him?). We can run it, but given the personnel at hand, a 4-3 might make more sense.
It's odd, but the two positions we've had the hardest time recruiting for the last few years are the two positions that are most important to our defense.

That's a good point, the personnel next year to run an effective 34 just isn't there. 43 would be better for us now and looking towards the immediate future.

Also, does running a base 43 put us in the conversation for some of these top DE recruits every year that seem to frown upon ND and not realistically consider them because they don't want to play in a 34? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this also one of the rumored reasons Lynch decided to transfer on top of the girlfriend stuff? Maybe running a 43 put's us in the running for guys like Hand, Nkemdeche, etc., in the future?

 

[blackirish]

When you think about it if we are playing 4-3 then Fox or Carlo should be nowhere near the field. The reason they are there is to be stout against the run and be able to take on interior OL. If we have 4 down linemen we dont need them on the field I would rather have Councell and Jaylon on there alongside Grace in the middle.

I don't know, but it seem to me that we were getting gashed on the run regardless of the scheme or personal,and I need to elude to something.....it's been said that our defense was exposed in the Alabama game, well I think it goes back a little further, because to be frank " Pitt exposed our weakness against the run, because the RB Graham was getting damner 7 -8 yds a carry on our defense and I said to myself then if we see a REAL running back like Eddie Lacy ( which we did) or Todd Gurley it's going to be real ugly . Right now we're facing RB'S that are marginal at best and they look "all world against us... Michigan st., Purdue ??? Come on man !

 

[blackirish]

I say we go to a 10-1 D. We put 10 guys on the line to crush the opposing backs in the backfield on every play. We play one deep safety, whose only job will be to do a MC Hammer dance in the end zone while singing "U Can't Touch This."

really ???. Well we have 4 guys in the secondary that can't seem to touch tackle , cover or run with the WR's we've face so far this year !

 

[NDdomer2]

I don't know, but it seem to me that we were getting gashed on the run regardless of the scheme or personal,and I need to elude to something.....it's been said that our defense was exposed in the Alabama game, well I think it goes back a little further, because to be frank " Pitt exposed our weakness against the run, because the RB Graham was getting damner 7 -8 yds a carry on our defense and I said to myself then if we see a REAL running back like Eddie Lacy ( which we did) or Todd Gurley it's going to be real ugly . Right now we're facing RB'S that are marginal at best and they look "all world against us... Michigan st., Purdue ??? Come on man !

our last two games opponents have averaged less than 3 yards per. that is not getting gashed.