'14 IN OLB/S Drue Tranquill (Notre Dame Man)

[Luckylucci]

Yeah, that's a big concession. He's been pretty consistent in saying that he thinks ND has a better chance at Morgan than most people think. Evidently he's seen the writing on the wall though.

And it bums me out a little. I really, really like Tranquill as a prospect, but what if it takes him a couple of years to get physically ready to play ILB? It took Councell two years to get up to the weight we want him at. I think we need at least one guy in the 2014 class who can potentially contribute at ILB right away. In 2014 are looking at Grace, Moore, Deeb, and incoming frosh, and it's beginning to look like the only incoming freshman who will have played much ILB before is Greer Martini. Unless he comes in ready to play, it's a precarious situation.

I'd been holding out hope for quite awhile based on Wiltfong and solely his info. He's been pretty tied in to that recruitment for a long time and he must have got some feedback that its not gonna materialize. Definitely bummed. On a more positive note TJ the other day mentioned (in response to somebody's inquiry about the future of ILB) that we may have some surprises by fall camp of next year at that position. I would take that as they think Deeb will be ready to go.

 

[Emcee77]

I'd been holding out hope for quite awhile based on Wiltfong and solely his info. He's been pretty tied in to that recruitment for a long time and he must have got some feedback that its not gonna materialize. Definitely bummed. On a more positive note TJ the other day mentioned (in response to somebody's inquiry about the future of ILB) that we may have some surprises by fall camp of next year at that position. I would take that as they think Deeb will be ready to go.

Well that's encouraging. Maybe also referring to a position switch? It'll be interesting to see it shake out.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Well that's encouraging. Maybe also referring to a position switch? It'll be interesting to see it shake out.

Or an anticipated transfer?

 

[Luckylucci]

Well that's encouraging. Maybe also referring to a position switch? It'll be interesting to see it shake out.

That wasn't my first thought but you have my attention. I do like the thought of giving Randolph some time at ILB.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That wasn't my first thought but you have my attention. I do like the thought of giving Randolph some time at ILB.

Since Bonner and Yeargin will both reportedly start at ROLB, I don't see how Randolph starts anywhere but ILB.

 

[NDWorld247]

Well that's encouraging. Maybe also referring to a position switch? It'll be interesting to see it shake out.

My initial thought was Councell moving inside. That's how we'd get the best 11 on the field next year, IMO.

 

[Emcee77]

Since Bonner and Yeargin will both reportedly start at ROLB, I don't see how Randolph starts anywhere but ILB.

Only way I can think of is if the staff changes its mind and decides to put either Yeargin or Bonner at ILB instead. One of the 3 has to play ILB, and I do think it will be Randolph (maybe Yeargin ... probably not Bonner). The other two guys are purer pass rushers, and Randolph will hopefully have spring practice to learn the ILB position (if he's recovered from his injury by then ... I haven't heard how long he is expected to be out).

My initial thought was Councell moving inside. That's how we'd get the best 11 on the field next year, IMO.

I think you are right. I have always hated the idea of moving Councell because I just think he is such a great DOG prospect with his length and speed, but, as you say, it may be the way to get the best 11 on the field, now that we have Jaylon playing in front of him.

 

[50milesSE ND]

Did I read somewhere that Romeo Okwara may play ILB?

 

[Luckylucci]

Did I read somewhere that Romeo Okwara may play ILB?

You may have but I highly doubt it. He'll probably be on the field quite a bit next year sharing CAT reps and playing DE in the 4-3.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You may have but I highly doubt it. He'll probably be on the field quite a bit next year sharing CAT reps and playing DE in the 4-3.

Especially if Councell gets moved inside. Then Okwara would be the #2 at ROLB and DOLB.

 

[Wild Bill]

My initial thought was Councell moving inside. That's how we'd get the best 11 on the field next year, IMO.

IMO, Councell doesn't have the instincts to play mike. To be clear, I'm not ripping his skill set and I think he could be a really good OLB. Mike is just a whole different beast. You either have the innate ability to play the position or you don't. I think it's very similar to running back - speed, quickness and strength are important, but you have to have the instincts to run the ball effectively (think GAIII...whole different discussion, I know).

I agree with your statement, though. Getting Councell on the field at mike would give us the best 11. I'd be more than happy to eat crow and watch him own the middle next year. I just don't see it right now.

 

[aubeirish]

My initial thought was Councell moving inside. That's how we'd get the best 11 on the field next year, IMO.

That's a great idea. He could do a lot of damage out there. Does he have the vocal abilities of the position. That's the only concern I have with this.

 

[Luckylucci]

IMO, Councell doesn't have the instincts to play mike. To be clear, I'm not ripping his skill set and I think he could be a really good OLB. Mike is just a whole different beast. You either have the innate ability to play the position or you don't. I think it's very similar to running back - speed, quickness and strength are important, but you have to have the instincts to run the ball effectively (think GAIII...whole different discussion, I know).

I agree with your statement, though. Getting Councell on the field at mike would give us the best 11. I'd be more than happy to eat crow and watch him own the middle next year. I just don't see it right now.

Just to be clear and I can say with some confidence that I don't think he'd be playing MIKE, whoever takes over next year at ILB will be playing WILL next to Grace. Some believe Grace has played the best football out of the ILB's so far this year.

 

[Emcee77]

IMO, Councell doesn't have the instincts to play mike. To be clear, I'm not ripping his skill set and I think he could be a really good OLB. Mike is just a whole different beast. You either have the innate ability to play the position or you don't. I think it's very similar to running back - speed, quickness and strength are important, but you have to have the instincts to run the ball effectively (think GAIII...whole different discussion, I know).

I'm curious what that opinion is based on. How could we know whether he has the instincts to play ILB until we see him try? Not arguing ... just curious what you mean.

 

[Luckylucci]

MIKE makes the calls not WILL so next year whoever plays won't have that responsibility.

 

[Ironman8]

I have a feeling Grace will be making the LB calls next year regardless of who else moves there.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

MIKE makes the calls not WILL so next year whoever plays won't have that responsibility.

Yeah I would think Grace would be MIKE and potentially Councell would be WILL

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Williams - Councell - Grace - Smith

Could end up being very good next year. Hopefully Councell can successfully make that transition. Can't afford to waste his size and athleticism as a backup at OLB when we've got such a glaring hole in the middle.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Not sure Williams doesn't move into a bigger role on the defensive line next year and give Okwara major time at Cat. I don't think we see Councell transition to Will at all, being that he has never played in the middle his entire career.

There will more than likely be a mix and match with Deeb, Grace, Schmidt, and Moore.

 

[NDWorld247]

IMO, Councell doesn't have the instincts to play mike. To be clear, I'm not ripping his skill set and I think he could be a really good OLB. Mike is just a whole different beast. You either have the innate ability to play the position or you don't. I think it's very similar to running back - speed, quickness and strength are important, but you have to have the instincts to run the ball effectively (think GAIII...whole different discussion, I know).

I agree with your statement, though. Getting Councell on the field at mike would give us the best 11. I'd be more than happy to eat crow and watch him own the middle next year. I just don't see it right now.

To be honest, I don't know if he does or doesn't have the instincts to play ILB. I don't think any of us have enough information to make that determination one way or another.

What I do like is his size (6'4", 250lbs), speed and athleticism. I agree 100% with your comment about needing an innate ability to play ILB, but it's not as if we have a lot of guys that fit that profile and whenever the conversation turns to our ILB's of the future, all of the talk is about moving guys there that haven't played the position (e.g. Randolph, Bonner, Tranquill, etc), so why not Councell? With that said, I do think having a traditional MLB with innate instincts to play the position is a lot more important in a 4-3 defense than a 3-4, especially with the evolution of the spread offense.

Re: his position at ILB, I imagine it would be as the WILL since Grace will have the MIKE spot locked up for 2014 and 2015. I don't know enough about the differences between the two in ND's defense, but from what I've read the WILL is easier to play than the MIKE.

Moving the conversation back to Tranquill...what I love about him is his versatility which seems to be the trademark of ND recruits since BK was hired. We're always having the discussion of moving guys around and the staff hasn't hesitated to do that. He's going to the game on Saturday, right? If so, this weekend will be big in his recruitment.

 

[Emcee77]

Re: his position at ILB, I imagine it would be as the WILL since Grace will have the MIKE spot locked up for 2014 and 2015. I don't know enough about the differences between the two in ND's defense, but from what I've read the WILL is easier to play than the MIKE.

Coaches told Deeb during his recruitment that WILL and MIKE are basically the same position, just different gaps. Only real difference is that the MIKE makes the calls.

 

[NDWorld247]

Williams - Councell - Grace - Smith

Could end up being very good next year. Hopefully Councell can successfully make that transition. Can't afford to waste his size and athleticism as a backup at OLB when we've got such a glaring hole in the middle.

That's exactly my feeling. BK and Diaco will find a way to get the best 11 on the field. If Councell stays at DOG then that means they have more confidence in the WILL position than the majority of this board, and that would be great news.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Only real difference is that the MIKE makes the calls.

Which, as we've seen in the absence of both Te'o and Motta, is a pretty big deal. But you're right that the staff claims there's no real difference in assignment or athletic capability.

 

[IrishLax]

I think you'll just see more and more of a move to a 4-3ish defense. Only have to find one guy who can play MLB, a SAM linebacker (I think we have a bunch of guys that can play that position well) and you WILL/WOLB... which is Jaylon Smith. I don't think a drastic reshuffling of players is needed, just a scheme adjustment to use the personnel we have.

In our 3-4 fronts... moving forward, who do we have that can be a Louis Nix? Or even a Stephon Tuitt? Just makes way more sense to play Ishaq-Day-Insert DT-Insert DE with 3 LBs than trying to fit square pegs in round holes. I'm sure you'll still see some 3-4 in 2014 and beyond but I really doubt you'll see us play similar D to what we've witnessed in 2012/2013.

 

[Luckylucci]

Not sure Williams doesn't move into a bigger role on the defensive line next year and give Okwara major time at Cat. I don't think we see Councell transition to Will at all, being that he has never played in the middle his entire career.

There will more than likely be a mix and match with Deeb, Grace, Schmidt, and Moore.

Diaco addressed Williams during media day. He'd playing CAT right now if Shembo wasn't in front of him. The cross training he's done is to get him work and for worst case scenario situations. He's starting CAT next year with his hand down in the 4-3.

 

[Luckylucci]

Which, as we've seen in the absence of both Te'o and Motta, is a pretty big deal. But you're right that the staff claims there's no real difference in assignment or athletic capability.

Right, I think Fox, Calabrese and Grace are wondering how Manti made it look so easy.

 

[Irishbounty28]

Diaco addressed Williams during media day. He'd playing CAT right now if Shembo wasn't in front of him. The cross training he's done is to get him work and for worst case scenario situations. He's starting CAT next year with his hand down in the 4-3.

I'm sure he will be the starting Cat, which wasn't exactly what I was disputing. But in order to get the best players on the field we may see more four man fronts, with Okwara in the mix as a backer.

This isn't drastically different from what we saw this week, as Shembo predominantly had his hand down on the line the entire Michigan game, and Ishaq lined up in a linebacker position.

 

[irishog77]

I think you'll just see more and more of a move to a 4-3ish defense. Only have to find one guy who can play MLB, a SAM linebacker (I think we have a bunch of guys that can play that position well) and you WILL/WOLB... which is Jaylon Smith. I don't think a drastic reshuffling of players is needed, just a scheme adjustment to use the personnel we have.

In our 3-4 fronts... moving forward, who do we have that can be a Louis Nix? Or even a Stephon Tuitt? Just makes way more sense to play Ishaq-Day-Insert DT-Insert DE with 3 LBs than trying to fit square pegs in round holes. I'm sure you'll still see some 3-4 in 2014 and beyond but I really doubt you'll see us play similar D to what we've witnessed in 2012/2013.

I think you may be right, but honestly, with the exception of Grace, Smith, and probably Councell, I'm not sure many of the LB's on the roster fit all that well into a traditional Mike, Sam, and Will role for a 4-3. Those 3 could make an awesome starting group, with Councell and Smith having the ability to switch positions or duties on any given play. But what about behind them?

There seems to be 2 philosophies on the use of Sam's and Will's in 4-3's: first, put your speediest, best play-maker at the Sam to potentially cover/disrupt TE's; and second, put your speediest, best play-maker at Will to run all over the field, track down ball carriers, and make tackles/plays.

I'm not sure guys like Williams, Okwara, and Bonner could be very effective as a Sam or Will, i.e. basically only playing in space. Schmidt may be too small and on too much of an island to be the only ILB on the field. Moore could be on too much of an island to be the only ILB. Yeargin? Maybe he could potentially play all/any of the 3? Randolph? I could see these 2 as being jack-of-all-trades types (a positive)....but, unfortunately being a master-of-none types (a negative) just as easily.

On the plus side as well, guys like Williams, Okwara, Bonner, and Trumbetti could all be awesome DE's in a 4-3 though.

 

[Luckylucci]

IMO, if Okwara is in the mix (which I think he will be) in 4 man fronts he'll most likely be playing DE opposite Ishaq with Jaylon Councell and Grace as your backers. Thats the best group. So in essence he'd have the same roll as Ishaq has this year.

 

[IrishLax]

I think you may be right, but honestly, with the exception of Grace, Smith, and probably Councell, I'm not sure many of the LB's on the roster fit all that well into a traditional Mike, Sam, and Will role for a 4-3. Those 3 could make an awesome starting group, with Councell and Smith having the ability to switch positions or duties on any given play. But what about behind them?

There seems to be 2 philosophies on the use of Sam's and Will's in 4-3's: first, put your speediest, best play-maker at the Sam to potentially cover/disrupt TE's; and second, put your speediest, best play-maker at Will to run all over the field, track down ball carriers, and make tackles/plays.

I'm not sure guys like Williams, Okwara, and Bonner could be very effective as a Sam or Will, i.e. basically only playing in space. Schmidt may be too small and on too much of an island to be the only ILB on the field. Moore could be on too much of an island to be the only ILB. Yeargin? Maybe he could potentially play all/any of the 3? Randolph? I could see these 2 as being jack-of-all-trades types (a positive)....but, unfortunately being a master-of-none types (a negative) just as easily.

On the plus side as well, guys like Williams, Okwara, Bonner, and Trumbetti could all be awesome DE's in a 4-3 though.

Good points. Here are my thoughts:

1. For SAM, I think you'd play Councell/Randolph in that position. Ishaq is a DE and probably same with Okwara in a 4-3. As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, you want your SAM to be a disruptive force of nature. It's his job to take on block/set the edge on running plays, bring the occasional SAM blitz, etc. I think either of those guys has the size/athleticism to be quite good in that role. I think Jarrett Grace could also be a solid SAM but without the ability to rush the passer. Yeargin could also be a potential impact player in this role, depending on situation.
2. For WILL, I think Jaylon is just perfect. Like you said, you want someone who can fly all over the field making plays and do a myriad of other tasks in space. His backup could be someone like Tranquill. Tranquill could also potentially play MIKE. You also have guys like Shumate and Turner that could play in this kind of spot in a reserve role.
3. For MIKE, I think this is the hardest plug. Usually you want a stocky heat seeking missile that is a dominant tackler. Do we have that? Michael Deeb maybe? Grace? Schmidt? I don't know. In the 3-4 the weaknesses of an ILB can be masked because you have 2 of them on the field. At the same time... you're putting two weaker players on the field. So it's quite a conundrum. Greer Martini is a guy who fits 3-4 ILB pretty darn well but might not be a fit for any of the 4-3 LB spots.