- Messages
- 20,894
- Reaction score
- 8,126
B
Bogtrotter07
Guest
The title of the act is a ten letter bacronym (USA PATRIOT) that stands for Uniting (and) Strengthening America (by) Providing Appropriate Tools Required (to) Intercept (and) Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001.
Section 2.15 of the Patriot Act:
Last edited:
B
Bogtrotter07
Guest
I just saw "Safe House" this weekend. Art imitating life.
I am now convinced that Prism was not an anti-terrorist program but an anti-corporate spying and property theft program.
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
Ronald McDonald and Tony The Tiger are watching you. I always thought that Kool-Aid guy looked suspicious too. Now the AFLAC Duck, I think he's the ring leader along with that Gecko.
B
Bogtrotter07
Guest
I have been wondering . . .
Actually, we have egg on our face because we always take a position of moral superiority. Always. And that is why we look so egg-faced. Not because of Snowden. Of course not that you mention it, I want my money back, I think we should start a class action suite against the Bozo's that have been running this program that they would let a three-month experiences neophyte cut off their nuts and force feed them, in front of the whole world. The only reason I would disagree that things will be fine is that we have abdicated all moral authority and put the thieves in charge, and they can't even secure the top secret program they run. I mean look in the old days MKUtra. Bad as it was, and I think it was dramatically overblown, that thing ran for twenty years before they shut it down. And you never heard anything about it until years later!
Last edited:
kmoose
Banned
- Messages
- 10,298
- Reaction score
- 1,181
Just like we lost all moral high ground after the Bay of Pigs? I mean, what honorable country hires mercenaries to fight a covert war for it? We'll be fine, eventually. For all of it's faults(and there admittedly many) this is still the greatest country in the world. Perfection is a noble pursuit; but those who judge the world based on some mythical perception of perfection are spending too much time in philosophical pursuits, instead of living in the real world.
Fbolt
I've been around
- Messages
- 6,932
- Reaction score
- 2,251
The EU? They can act indignant all they want. Agreeing with BobD on this as I always have in this thread. The EU has been stealing secrets for years-it's a way of life.
Bogs - I cannot for the life of me figure you out. First it's a whistle blower. Now you're going down a path of it's the governments fault for hiring a youngster who has keys to the kingdom. Which one is it? Or are you now transfixed on the corporate spying issue? Why because of a Hollywood movie?
Your posts lose me.
Bogs - I cannot for the life of me figure you out. First it's a whistle blower. Now you're going down a path of it's the governments fault for hiring a youngster who has keys to the kingdom. Which one is it? Or are you now transfixed on the corporate spying issue? Why because of a Hollywood movie?
Your posts lose me.
B
Buster Bluth
Guest
Chris Hayes Absolutely Nails Hypocrisy On Snowden Leaks Versus Leaks That Advance Gov’t Agenda | Mediaite
Watch the video. It shows the complete hypocrisy by the government using the "Snowden is helping the terrorists know what we're doing!" line.
Watch the video. It shows the complete hypocrisy by the government using the "Snowden is helping the terrorists know what we're doing!" line.
B
Bogtrotter07
Guest
Whatever do you mean, Fbolt?
Is the problem you have with my post a change in perspective? Or is it nothing more than you think the "show" is reality, and not what I think, which is the show is a show put on as entertainment to distract us all from the totality of the situation in reality? In other words, is my perspective from outside the stage or even the theater wherein lies the activity?
What you have is this big dog and pony show, beautiful girls on horseback, music, lights, etc. Someone says that is a good show. Someone else says but to put it on they have to keep the animals and the humans in substandard conditions. Someone else says that it is unfair to point that out, and disrespectful of the show's owners and promoters. And then they point out that keeping on with that line will obviously force the show's owners into bankruptcy. Someone else says it is unfair to treat the animals and people that way. Someone else attacks them as a tree hugger and a communist and says they should be jailed. And so on. Only thing is no one happens to make the only germane point; that they are all standing @ss deep in horse shiit!
Buster hit the nail on the head! I didn't think of it, but this Snowden thing is no less theater than the movie I mentioned, 'Safe House!' This is all managed by everyone. You cannot probably understand my points unless you can see that the governments of the EU and others continuously mentioned are more allied with our own government, than our own government is aligned with us on this issue!
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
13. The Use of Spies
1
Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand men and marching them great distances entails heavy loss on the people and a drain on the resources of the State. The daily expenditure will amount to a thousand ounces of silver. #Cf. II. ss. 1, ss. 13, ss. 14.
There will be commotion at home and abroad, and men will drop down exhausted on the highways. #Cf. TAO TE CHING, ch. 30: "Where troops have been quartered, brambles and thorns spring up. Chang Yu has the note: "We may be reminded of the saying: 'On serious ground, gather in plunder.' Why then should carriage and transportation cause exhaustion on the highways?—The answer is, that not victuals alone, but all sorts of munitions of war have to be conveyed to the army. Besides, the injunction to 'forage on the enemy' only means that when an army is deeply engaged in hostile territory, scarcity of food must be provided against. Hence, without being solely dependent on the enemy for corn, we must forage in order that there may be an uninterrupted flow of supplies. Then, again, there are places like salt deserts where provisions being unobtainable, supplies from home cannot be dispensed with."
As many as seven hundred thousand families will be impeded in their labor. #Mei Yao-ch`en says: "Men will be lacking at the plough tail." The allusion is to the system of dividing land into nine parts, each consisting of about 15 acres, the plot in the center being cultivated on behalf of the State by the tenants of the other eight. It was here also, so Tu Mu tells us, that their cottages were built and a well sunk, to be used by all in common. [See II. ss. 12, note.] In time of war, one of the families had to serve in the army, while the other seven contributed to its support. Thus, by a levy of 100,000 men (reckoning one able bodied soldier to each family) the husbandry of 700,000 families would be affected.
2
Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, #"For spies" is of course the meaning, though it would spoil the effect of this curiously elaborate exordium if spies were actually mentioned at this point.
is the height of inhumanity. #Sun Tzu's agreement is certainly ingenious. He begins by adverting to the frightful misery and vast expenditure of blood and treasure which war always brings in its train. Now, unless you are kept informed of the enemy's condition, and are ready to strike at the right moment, a war may drag on for years. The only way to get this information is to employ spies, and it is impossible to obtain trustworthy spies unless they are properly paid for their services. But it is surely false economy to grudge a comparatively trifling amount for this purpose, when every day that the war lasts eats up an incalculably greater sum. This grievous burden falls on the shoulders of the poor, and hence Sun Tzu concludes that to neglect the use of spies is nothing less than a crime against humanity.
3
One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his sovereign, no master of victory. #This idea, that the true object of war is peace, has its root in the national temperament of the Chinese. Even so far back as 597 B.C., these memorable words were uttered by Prince Chuang of the Ch`u State: "The [Chinese] character for 'prowess' is made up of [the characters for] 'to stay' and 'a spear' (cessation of hostilities). Military prowess is seen in the repression of cruelty, the calling in of weapons, the preservation of the appointment of Heaven, the firm establishment of merit, the bestowal of happiness on the people, putting harmony between the princes, the diffusion of wealth."
4
Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE. #That is, knowledge of the enemy's dispositions, and what he means to do.
5
Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, #Tu Mu's note is: "[knowledge of the enemy] cannot be gained by reasoning from other analogous cases."
nor by any deductive calculation. #Li Ch`uan says: "Quantities like length, breadth, distance and magnitude, are susceptible of exact mathematical determination; human actions cannot be so calculated."
6
Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men. #Mei Yao-ch`en has rather an interesting note: "Knowledge of the spirit-world is to be obtained by divination; information in natural science may be sought by inductive reasoning; the laws of the universe can be verified by mathematical calculation: but the dispositions of an enemy are ascertainable through spies and spies alone."
7
Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local spies; (2) inward spies; (3) converted spies; (4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies. #
8
When these five kinds of spy are all at work, none can discover the secret system. This is called "divine manipulation of the threads." It is the sovereign's most precious faculty. #Cromwell, one of the greatest and most practical of all cavalry leaders, had officers styled 'scout masters,' whose business it was to collect all possible information regarding the enemy, through scouts and spies, etc., and much of his success in war was traceable to the previous knowledge of the enemy's moves thus gained."[1="Aids to Scouting," p. 2.]
9
Having LOCAL SPIES means employing the services of the inhabitants of a district. #Tu Mu says: "In the enemy's country, win people over by kind treatment, and use them as spies."
10
Having INWARD SPIES, making use of officials of the enemy. #Tu Mu enumerates the following classes as likely to do good service in this respect: "Worthy men who have been degraded from office, criminals who have undergone punishment; also, favorite concubines who are greedy for gold, men who are aggrieved at being in subordinate positions, or who have been passed over in the distribution of posts, others who are anxious that their side should be defeated in order that they may have a chance of displaying their ability and talents, fickle turncoats who always want to have a foot in each boat. Officials of these several kinds," he continues, "should be secretly approached and bound to one's interests by means of rich presents. In this way you will be able to find out the state of affairs in the enemy's country, ascertain the plans that are being formed against you, and moreover disturb the harmony and create a breach between the sovereign and his ministers." The necessity for extreme caution, however, in dealing with "inward spies," appears from an historical incident related by Ho Shih: "Lo Shang, Governor of I-Chou, sent his general Wei Po to attack the rebel Li Hsiung of Shu in his stronghold at P`i. After each side had experienced a number of victories and defeats, Li Hsiung had recourse to the services of a certain P`o-t`ai, a native of Wu-tu. He began to have him whipped until the blood came, and then sent him off to Lo Shang, whom he was to delude by offering to cooperate with him from inside the city, and to give a fire signal at the right moment for making a general assault. Lo Shang, confiding in these promises, march out all his best troops, and placed Wei Po and others at their head with orders to attack at P`o-t`ai's bidding. Meanwhile, Li Hsiung's general, Li Hsiang, had prepared an ambuscade on their line of march; and P`o-t`ai, having reared long scaling-ladders against the city walls, now lighted the beacon-fire. Wei Po's men raced up on seeing the signal and began climbing the ladders as fast as they could, while others were drawn up by ropes lowered from above. More than a hundred of Lo Shang's soldiers entered the city in this way, every one of whom was forthwith beheaded. Li Hsiung then charged with all his forces, both inside and outside the city, and routed the enemy completely." [This happened in 303 A.D. I do not know where Ho Shih got the story from. It is not given in the biography of Li Hsiung or that of his father Li T`e, CHIN SHU, ch. 120, 121.]
11
Having CONVERTED SPIES, getting hold of the enemy's spies and using them for our own purposes. #By means of heavy bribes and liberal promises detaching them from the enemy's service, and inducing them to carry back false information as well as to spy in turn on their own countrymen. On the other hand, Hsiao Shih-hsien says that we pretend not to have detected him, but contrive to let him carry away a false impression of what is going on. Several of the commentators accept this as an alternative definition; but that it is not what Sun Tzu meant is conclusively proved by his subsequent remarks about treating the converted spy generously (ss. 21 sqq.). Ho Shih notes three occasions on which converted spies were used with conspicuous success: (1) by T`ien Tan in his defense of Chi-mo (see supra, p. 90); (2) by Chao She on his march to O-yu (see p. 57); and by the wily Fan Chu in 260 B.C., when Lien P`o was conducting a defensive campaign against Ch`in. The King of Chao strongly disapproved of Lien P`o's cautious and dilatory methods, which had been unable to avert a series of minor disasters, and therefore lent a ready ear to the reports of his spies, who had secretly gone over to the enemy and were already in Fan Chu's pay. They said: "The only thing which causes Ch`in anxiety is lest Chao Kua should be made general. Lien P`o they consider an easy opponent, who is sure to be vanquished in the long run." Now this Chao Kua was a sun of the famous Chao She. From his boyhood, he had been wholly engrossed in the study of war and military matters, until at last he came to believe that there was no commander in the whole Empire who could stand against him. His father was much disquieted by this overweening conceit, and the flippancy with which he spoke of such a serious thing as war, and solemnly declared that if ever Kua was appointed general, he would bring ruin on the armies of Chao. This was the man who, in spite of earnest protests from his own mother and the veteran statesman Lin Hsiang-ju, was now sent to succeed Lien P`o. Needless to say, he proved no match for the redoubtable Po Ch`i and the great military power of Ch`in. He fell into a trap by which his army was divided into two and his communications cut; and after a desperate resistance lasting 46 days, during which the famished soldiers devoured one another, he was himself killed by an arrow, and his whole force, amounting, it is said, to 400,000 men, ruthlessly put to the sword.
12
Having DOOMED SPIES, doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to the enemy. #Tu Yu gives the best exposition of the meaning: "We ostentatiously do thing calculated to deceive our own spies, who must be led to believe that they have been unwittingly disclosed. Then, when these spies are captured in the enemy's lines, they will make an entirely false report, and the enemy will take measures accordingly, only to find that we do something quite different. The spies will thereupon be put to death." As an example of doomed spies, Ho Shih mentions the prisoners released by Pan Ch`ao in his campaign against Yarkand. (See p. 132.) He also refers to T`ang Chien, who in 630 A.D. was sent by T`ai Tsung to lull the Turkish Kahn Chieh-li into fancied security, until Li Ching was able to deliver a crushing blow against him. Chang Yu says that the Turks revenged themselves by killing T`ang Chien, but this is a mistake, for we read in both the old and the New T`ang History (ch. 58, fol. 2 and ch. 89, fol. 8 respectively) that he escaped and lived on until 656. Li I-chi played a somewhat similar part in 203 B.C., when sent by the King of Han to open peaceful negotiations with Ch`i. He has certainly more claim to be described a "doomed spy", for the king of Ch`i, being subsequently attacked without warning by Han Hsin, and infuriated by what he considered the treachery of Li I-chi, ordered the unfortunate envoy to be boiled alive.
13
SURVIVING SPIES, finally, are those who bring back news from the enemy's camp. #This is the ordinary class of spies, properly so called, forming a regular part of the army. Tu Mu says: "Your surviving spy must be a man of keen intellect, though in outward appearance a fool; of shabby exterior, but with a will of iron. He must be active, robust, endowed with physical strength and courage; thoroughly accustomed to all sorts of dirty work, able to endure hunger and cold, and to put up with shame and ignominy." Ho Shih tells the following story of Ta`hsi Wu of the Sui dynasty: "When he was governor of Eastern Ch`in, Shen-wu of Ch`i made a hostile movement upon Sha-yuan. The Emperor T`ai Tsu [? Kao Tsu] sent Ta-hsi Wu to spy upon the enemy. He was accompanied by two other men. All three were on horseback and wore the enemy's uniform. When it was dark, they dismounted a few hundred feet away from the enemy's camp and stealthily crept up to listen, until they succeeded in catching the passwords used in the army. Then they got on their horses again and boldly passed through the camp under the guise of night-watchmen; and more than once, happening to come across a soldier who was committing some breach of discipline, they actually stopped to give the culprit a sound cudgeling! Thus they managed to return with the fullest possible information about the enemy's dispositions, and received warm commendation from the Emperor, who in consequence of their report was able to inflict a severe defeat on his adversary."
14
Hence it is that which none in the whole army are more intimate relations to be maintained than with spies. #Tu Mu and Mei Yao-ch`en point out that the spy is privileged to enter even the general's private sleeping-tent.
None should be more liberally rewarded. In no other business should greater secrecy be preserved. #Tu Mu gives a graphic touch: all communication with spies should be carried "mouth-to-ear." The following remarks on spies may be quoted from Turenne, who made perhaps larger use of them than any previous commander: "Spies are attached to those who give them most, he who pays them ill is never served. They should never be known to anybody; nor should they know one another. When they propose anything very material, secure their persons, or have in your possession their wives and children as hostages for their fidelity. Never communicate anything to them but what is absolutely necessary that they should know.[2="Marshal Turenne," p. 311.]
15
Spies cannot be usefully employed without a certain intuitive sagacity. #Mei Yao-ch`en says: "In order to use them, one must know fact from falsehood, and be able to discriminate between honesty and double-dealing." Wang Hsi in a different interpretation thinks more along the lines of "intuitive perception" and "practical intelligence." Tu Mu strangely refers these attributes to the spies themselves: "Before using spies we must assure ourselves as to their integrity of character and the extent of their experience and skill." But he continues: "A brazen face and a crafty disposition are more dangerous than mountains or rivers; it takes a man of genius to penetrate such." So that we are left in some doubt as to his real opinion on the passage."
16
They cannot be properly managed without benevolence and straightforwardness. #Chang Yu says: "When you have attracted them by substantial offers, you must treat them with absolute sincerity; then they will work for you with all their might."
17
Without subtle ingenuity of mind, one cannot make certain of the truth of their reports. #Mei Yao-ch`en says: "Be on your guard against the possibility of spies going over to the service of the enemy."
18
Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business. #Cf. VI. ss. 9.
19
If a secret piece of news is divulged by a spy before the time is ripe, he must be put to death together with the man to whom the secret was told. #Word for word, the translation here is: "If spy matters are heard before [our plans] are carried out," etc. Sun Tzu's main point in this passage is: Whereas you kill the spy himself "as a punishment for letting out the secret," the object of killing the other man is only, as Ch`en Hao puts it, "to stop his mouth" and prevent news leaking any further. If it had already been repeated to others, this object would not be gained. Either way, Sun Tzu lays himself open to the charge of inhumanity, though Tu Mu tries to defend him by saying that the man deserves to be put to death, for the spy would certainly not have told the secret unless the other had been at pains to worm it out of him."
20
Whether the object be to crush an army, to storm a city, or to assassinate an individual, it is always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de-camp, #Literally "visitors", is equivalent, as Tu Yu says, to "those whose duty it is to keep the general supplied with information," which naturally necessitates frequent interviews with him.
and door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be commissioned to ascertain these. #As the first step, no doubt towards finding out if any of these important functionaries can be won over by bribery.
21
The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become converted spies and available for our service. #
22
It is through the information brought by the converted spy that we are able to acquire and employ local and inward spies. #Tu Yu says: "through conversion of the enemy's spies we learn the enemy's condition." And Chang Yu says: "We must tempt the converted spy into our service, because it is he that knows which of the local inhabitants are greedy of gain, and which of the officials are open to corruption."
23
It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy. #Chang Yu says, "because the converted spy knows how the enemy can best be deceived."
24
Lastly, it is by his information that the surviving spy can be used on appointed occasions. #
25
The end and aim of spying in all its five varieties is knowledge of the enemy; and this knowledge can only be derived, in the first instance, from the converted spy. #As explained in ss. 22-24. He not only brings information himself, but makes it possible to use the other kinds of spy to advantage.
Hence it is essential that the converted spy be treated with the utmost liberality. #
26
Of old, the rise of the Yin dynasty #Sun Tzu means the Shang dynasty, founded in 1766 B.C. Its name was changed to Yin by P`an Keng in 1401.
was due to I Chih #Better known as I Yin, the famous general and statesman who took part in Ch`eng T`ang's campaign against Chieh Kuei.
who had served under the Hsia. Likewise, the rise of the Chou dynasty was due to Lu Ya #Lu Shang rose to high office under the tyrant Chou Hsin, whom he afterwards helped to overthrow. Popularly known as T`ai Kung, a title bestowed on him by Wen Wang, he is said to have composed a treatise on war, erroneously identified with the LIU T`AO.
who had served under the Yin. #There is less precision in the Chinese than I have thought it well to introduce into my translation, and the commentaries on the passage are by no means explicit. But, having regard to the context, we can hardly doubt that Sun Tzu is holding up I Chih and Lu Ya as illustrious examples of the converted spy, or something closely analogous. His suggestion is, that the Hsia and Yin dynasties were upset owing to the intimate knowledge of their weaknesses and shortcoming which these former ministers were able to impart to the other side. Mei Yao-ch`en appears to resent any such aspersion on these historic names: "I Yin and Lu Ya," he says, "were not rebels against the Government. Hsia could not employ the former, hence Yin employed him. Yin could not employ the latter, hence Hou employed him. Their great achievements were all for the good of the people." Ho Shih is also indignant: "How should two divinely inspired men such as I and Lu have acted as common spies? Sun Tzu's mention of them simply means that the proper use of the five classes of spies is a matter which requires men of the highest mental caliber like I and Lu, whose wisdom and capacity qualified them for the task. The above words only emphasize this point." Ho Shih believes then that the two heroes are mentioned on account of their supposed skill in the use of spies. But this is very weak.
27
Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. #Tu Mu closes with a note of warning: "Just as water, which carries a boat from bank to bank, may also be the means of sinking it, so reliance on spies, while production of great results, is oft-times the cause of utter destruction."
Spies are a most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability to move. #Chia Lin says that an army without spies is like a man without ears or eyes.
1
Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand men and marching them great distances entails heavy loss on the people and a drain on the resources of the State. The daily expenditure will amount to a thousand ounces of silver. #Cf. II. ss. 1, ss. 13, ss. 14.
There will be commotion at home and abroad, and men will drop down exhausted on the highways. #Cf. TAO TE CHING, ch. 30: "Where troops have been quartered, brambles and thorns spring up. Chang Yu has the note: "We may be reminded of the saying: 'On serious ground, gather in plunder.' Why then should carriage and transportation cause exhaustion on the highways?—The answer is, that not victuals alone, but all sorts of munitions of war have to be conveyed to the army. Besides, the injunction to 'forage on the enemy' only means that when an army is deeply engaged in hostile territory, scarcity of food must be provided against. Hence, without being solely dependent on the enemy for corn, we must forage in order that there may be an uninterrupted flow of supplies. Then, again, there are places like salt deserts where provisions being unobtainable, supplies from home cannot be dispensed with."
As many as seven hundred thousand families will be impeded in their labor. #Mei Yao-ch`en says: "Men will be lacking at the plough tail." The allusion is to the system of dividing land into nine parts, each consisting of about 15 acres, the plot in the center being cultivated on behalf of the State by the tenants of the other eight. It was here also, so Tu Mu tells us, that their cottages were built and a well sunk, to be used by all in common. [See II. ss. 12, note.] In time of war, one of the families had to serve in the army, while the other seven contributed to its support. Thus, by a levy of 100,000 men (reckoning one able bodied soldier to each family) the husbandry of 700,000 families would be affected.
2
Hostile armies may face each other for years, striving for the victory which is decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver in honors and emoluments, #"For spies" is of course the meaning, though it would spoil the effect of this curiously elaborate exordium if spies were actually mentioned at this point.
is the height of inhumanity. #Sun Tzu's agreement is certainly ingenious. He begins by adverting to the frightful misery and vast expenditure of blood and treasure which war always brings in its train. Now, unless you are kept informed of the enemy's condition, and are ready to strike at the right moment, a war may drag on for years. The only way to get this information is to employ spies, and it is impossible to obtain trustworthy spies unless they are properly paid for their services. But it is surely false economy to grudge a comparatively trifling amount for this purpose, when every day that the war lasts eats up an incalculably greater sum. This grievous burden falls on the shoulders of the poor, and hence Sun Tzu concludes that to neglect the use of spies is nothing less than a crime against humanity.
3
One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his sovereign, no master of victory. #This idea, that the true object of war is peace, has its root in the national temperament of the Chinese. Even so far back as 597 B.C., these memorable words were uttered by Prince Chuang of the Ch`u State: "The [Chinese] character for 'prowess' is made up of [the characters for] 'to stay' and 'a spear' (cessation of hostilities). Military prowess is seen in the repression of cruelty, the calling in of weapons, the preservation of the appointment of Heaven, the firm establishment of merit, the bestowal of happiness on the people, putting harmony between the princes, the diffusion of wealth."
4
Thus, what enables the wise sovereign and the good general to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is FOREKNOWLEDGE. #That is, knowledge of the enemy's dispositions, and what he means to do.
5
Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, #Tu Mu's note is: "[knowledge of the enemy] cannot be gained by reasoning from other analogous cases."
nor by any deductive calculation. #Li Ch`uan says: "Quantities like length, breadth, distance and magnitude, are susceptible of exact mathematical determination; human actions cannot be so calculated."
6
Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men. #Mei Yao-ch`en has rather an interesting note: "Knowledge of the spirit-world is to be obtained by divination; information in natural science may be sought by inductive reasoning; the laws of the universe can be verified by mathematical calculation: but the dispositions of an enemy are ascertainable through spies and spies alone."
7
Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local spies; (2) inward spies; (3) converted spies; (4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies. #
8
When these five kinds of spy are all at work, none can discover the secret system. This is called "divine manipulation of the threads." It is the sovereign's most precious faculty. #Cromwell, one of the greatest and most practical of all cavalry leaders, had officers styled 'scout masters,' whose business it was to collect all possible information regarding the enemy, through scouts and spies, etc., and much of his success in war was traceable to the previous knowledge of the enemy's moves thus gained."[1="Aids to Scouting," p. 2.]
9
Having LOCAL SPIES means employing the services of the inhabitants of a district. #Tu Mu says: "In the enemy's country, win people over by kind treatment, and use them as spies."
10
Having INWARD SPIES, making use of officials of the enemy. #Tu Mu enumerates the following classes as likely to do good service in this respect: "Worthy men who have been degraded from office, criminals who have undergone punishment; also, favorite concubines who are greedy for gold, men who are aggrieved at being in subordinate positions, or who have been passed over in the distribution of posts, others who are anxious that their side should be defeated in order that they may have a chance of displaying their ability and talents, fickle turncoats who always want to have a foot in each boat. Officials of these several kinds," he continues, "should be secretly approached and bound to one's interests by means of rich presents. In this way you will be able to find out the state of affairs in the enemy's country, ascertain the plans that are being formed against you, and moreover disturb the harmony and create a breach between the sovereign and his ministers." The necessity for extreme caution, however, in dealing with "inward spies," appears from an historical incident related by Ho Shih: "Lo Shang, Governor of I-Chou, sent his general Wei Po to attack the rebel Li Hsiung of Shu in his stronghold at P`i. After each side had experienced a number of victories and defeats, Li Hsiung had recourse to the services of a certain P`o-t`ai, a native of Wu-tu. He began to have him whipped until the blood came, and then sent him off to Lo Shang, whom he was to delude by offering to cooperate with him from inside the city, and to give a fire signal at the right moment for making a general assault. Lo Shang, confiding in these promises, march out all his best troops, and placed Wei Po and others at their head with orders to attack at P`o-t`ai's bidding. Meanwhile, Li Hsiung's general, Li Hsiang, had prepared an ambuscade on their line of march; and P`o-t`ai, having reared long scaling-ladders against the city walls, now lighted the beacon-fire. Wei Po's men raced up on seeing the signal and began climbing the ladders as fast as they could, while others were drawn up by ropes lowered from above. More than a hundred of Lo Shang's soldiers entered the city in this way, every one of whom was forthwith beheaded. Li Hsiung then charged with all his forces, both inside and outside the city, and routed the enemy completely." [This happened in 303 A.D. I do not know where Ho Shih got the story from. It is not given in the biography of Li Hsiung or that of his father Li T`e, CHIN SHU, ch. 120, 121.]
11
Having CONVERTED SPIES, getting hold of the enemy's spies and using them for our own purposes. #By means of heavy bribes and liberal promises detaching them from the enemy's service, and inducing them to carry back false information as well as to spy in turn on their own countrymen. On the other hand, Hsiao Shih-hsien says that we pretend not to have detected him, but contrive to let him carry away a false impression of what is going on. Several of the commentators accept this as an alternative definition; but that it is not what Sun Tzu meant is conclusively proved by his subsequent remarks about treating the converted spy generously (ss. 21 sqq.). Ho Shih notes three occasions on which converted spies were used with conspicuous success: (1) by T`ien Tan in his defense of Chi-mo (see supra, p. 90); (2) by Chao She on his march to O-yu (see p. 57); and by the wily Fan Chu in 260 B.C., when Lien P`o was conducting a defensive campaign against Ch`in. The King of Chao strongly disapproved of Lien P`o's cautious and dilatory methods, which had been unable to avert a series of minor disasters, and therefore lent a ready ear to the reports of his spies, who had secretly gone over to the enemy and were already in Fan Chu's pay. They said: "The only thing which causes Ch`in anxiety is lest Chao Kua should be made general. Lien P`o they consider an easy opponent, who is sure to be vanquished in the long run." Now this Chao Kua was a sun of the famous Chao She. From his boyhood, he had been wholly engrossed in the study of war and military matters, until at last he came to believe that there was no commander in the whole Empire who could stand against him. His father was much disquieted by this overweening conceit, and the flippancy with which he spoke of such a serious thing as war, and solemnly declared that if ever Kua was appointed general, he would bring ruin on the armies of Chao. This was the man who, in spite of earnest protests from his own mother and the veteran statesman Lin Hsiang-ju, was now sent to succeed Lien P`o. Needless to say, he proved no match for the redoubtable Po Ch`i and the great military power of Ch`in. He fell into a trap by which his army was divided into two and his communications cut; and after a desperate resistance lasting 46 days, during which the famished soldiers devoured one another, he was himself killed by an arrow, and his whole force, amounting, it is said, to 400,000 men, ruthlessly put to the sword.
12
Having DOOMED SPIES, doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to the enemy. #Tu Yu gives the best exposition of the meaning: "We ostentatiously do thing calculated to deceive our own spies, who must be led to believe that they have been unwittingly disclosed. Then, when these spies are captured in the enemy's lines, they will make an entirely false report, and the enemy will take measures accordingly, only to find that we do something quite different. The spies will thereupon be put to death." As an example of doomed spies, Ho Shih mentions the prisoners released by Pan Ch`ao in his campaign against Yarkand. (See p. 132.) He also refers to T`ang Chien, who in 630 A.D. was sent by T`ai Tsung to lull the Turkish Kahn Chieh-li into fancied security, until Li Ching was able to deliver a crushing blow against him. Chang Yu says that the Turks revenged themselves by killing T`ang Chien, but this is a mistake, for we read in both the old and the New T`ang History (ch. 58, fol. 2 and ch. 89, fol. 8 respectively) that he escaped and lived on until 656. Li I-chi played a somewhat similar part in 203 B.C., when sent by the King of Han to open peaceful negotiations with Ch`i. He has certainly more claim to be described a "doomed spy", for the king of Ch`i, being subsequently attacked without warning by Han Hsin, and infuriated by what he considered the treachery of Li I-chi, ordered the unfortunate envoy to be boiled alive.
13
SURVIVING SPIES, finally, are those who bring back news from the enemy's camp. #This is the ordinary class of spies, properly so called, forming a regular part of the army. Tu Mu says: "Your surviving spy must be a man of keen intellect, though in outward appearance a fool; of shabby exterior, but with a will of iron. He must be active, robust, endowed with physical strength and courage; thoroughly accustomed to all sorts of dirty work, able to endure hunger and cold, and to put up with shame and ignominy." Ho Shih tells the following story of Ta`hsi Wu of the Sui dynasty: "When he was governor of Eastern Ch`in, Shen-wu of Ch`i made a hostile movement upon Sha-yuan. The Emperor T`ai Tsu [? Kao Tsu] sent Ta-hsi Wu to spy upon the enemy. He was accompanied by two other men. All three were on horseback and wore the enemy's uniform. When it was dark, they dismounted a few hundred feet away from the enemy's camp and stealthily crept up to listen, until they succeeded in catching the passwords used in the army. Then they got on their horses again and boldly passed through the camp under the guise of night-watchmen; and more than once, happening to come across a soldier who was committing some breach of discipline, they actually stopped to give the culprit a sound cudgeling! Thus they managed to return with the fullest possible information about the enemy's dispositions, and received warm commendation from the Emperor, who in consequence of their report was able to inflict a severe defeat on his adversary."
14
Hence it is that which none in the whole army are more intimate relations to be maintained than with spies. #Tu Mu and Mei Yao-ch`en point out that the spy is privileged to enter even the general's private sleeping-tent.
None should be more liberally rewarded. In no other business should greater secrecy be preserved. #Tu Mu gives a graphic touch: all communication with spies should be carried "mouth-to-ear." The following remarks on spies may be quoted from Turenne, who made perhaps larger use of them than any previous commander: "Spies are attached to those who give them most, he who pays them ill is never served. They should never be known to anybody; nor should they know one another. When they propose anything very material, secure their persons, or have in your possession their wives and children as hostages for their fidelity. Never communicate anything to them but what is absolutely necessary that they should know.[2="Marshal Turenne," p. 311.]
15
Spies cannot be usefully employed without a certain intuitive sagacity. #Mei Yao-ch`en says: "In order to use them, one must know fact from falsehood, and be able to discriminate between honesty and double-dealing." Wang Hsi in a different interpretation thinks more along the lines of "intuitive perception" and "practical intelligence." Tu Mu strangely refers these attributes to the spies themselves: "Before using spies we must assure ourselves as to their integrity of character and the extent of their experience and skill." But he continues: "A brazen face and a crafty disposition are more dangerous than mountains or rivers; it takes a man of genius to penetrate such." So that we are left in some doubt as to his real opinion on the passage."
16
They cannot be properly managed without benevolence and straightforwardness. #Chang Yu says: "When you have attracted them by substantial offers, you must treat them with absolute sincerity; then they will work for you with all their might."
17
Without subtle ingenuity of mind, one cannot make certain of the truth of their reports. #Mei Yao-ch`en says: "Be on your guard against the possibility of spies going over to the service of the enemy."
18
Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business. #Cf. VI. ss. 9.
19
If a secret piece of news is divulged by a spy before the time is ripe, he must be put to death together with the man to whom the secret was told. #Word for word, the translation here is: "If spy matters are heard before [our plans] are carried out," etc. Sun Tzu's main point in this passage is: Whereas you kill the spy himself "as a punishment for letting out the secret," the object of killing the other man is only, as Ch`en Hao puts it, "to stop his mouth" and prevent news leaking any further. If it had already been repeated to others, this object would not be gained. Either way, Sun Tzu lays himself open to the charge of inhumanity, though Tu Mu tries to defend him by saying that the man deserves to be put to death, for the spy would certainly not have told the secret unless the other had been at pains to worm it out of him."
20
Whether the object be to crush an army, to storm a city, or to assassinate an individual, it is always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de-camp, #Literally "visitors", is equivalent, as Tu Yu says, to "those whose duty it is to keep the general supplied with information," which naturally necessitates frequent interviews with him.
and door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be commissioned to ascertain these. #As the first step, no doubt towards finding out if any of these important functionaries can be won over by bribery.
21
The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become converted spies and available for our service. #
22
It is through the information brought by the converted spy that we are able to acquire and employ local and inward spies. #Tu Yu says: "through conversion of the enemy's spies we learn the enemy's condition." And Chang Yu says: "We must tempt the converted spy into our service, because it is he that knows which of the local inhabitants are greedy of gain, and which of the officials are open to corruption."
23
It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy. #Chang Yu says, "because the converted spy knows how the enemy can best be deceived."
24
Lastly, it is by his information that the surviving spy can be used on appointed occasions. #
25
The end and aim of spying in all its five varieties is knowledge of the enemy; and this knowledge can only be derived, in the first instance, from the converted spy. #As explained in ss. 22-24. He not only brings information himself, but makes it possible to use the other kinds of spy to advantage.
Hence it is essential that the converted spy be treated with the utmost liberality. #
26
Of old, the rise of the Yin dynasty #Sun Tzu means the Shang dynasty, founded in 1766 B.C. Its name was changed to Yin by P`an Keng in 1401.
was due to I Chih #Better known as I Yin, the famous general and statesman who took part in Ch`eng T`ang's campaign against Chieh Kuei.
who had served under the Hsia. Likewise, the rise of the Chou dynasty was due to Lu Ya #Lu Shang rose to high office under the tyrant Chou Hsin, whom he afterwards helped to overthrow. Popularly known as T`ai Kung, a title bestowed on him by Wen Wang, he is said to have composed a treatise on war, erroneously identified with the LIU T`AO.
who had served under the Yin. #There is less precision in the Chinese than I have thought it well to introduce into my translation, and the commentaries on the passage are by no means explicit. But, having regard to the context, we can hardly doubt that Sun Tzu is holding up I Chih and Lu Ya as illustrious examples of the converted spy, or something closely analogous. His suggestion is, that the Hsia and Yin dynasties were upset owing to the intimate knowledge of their weaknesses and shortcoming which these former ministers were able to impart to the other side. Mei Yao-ch`en appears to resent any such aspersion on these historic names: "I Yin and Lu Ya," he says, "were not rebels against the Government. Hsia could not employ the former, hence Yin employed him. Yin could not employ the latter, hence Hou employed him. Their great achievements were all for the good of the people." Ho Shih is also indignant: "How should two divinely inspired men such as I and Lu have acted as common spies? Sun Tzu's mention of them simply means that the proper use of the five classes of spies is a matter which requires men of the highest mental caliber like I and Lu, whose wisdom and capacity qualified them for the task. The above words only emphasize this point." Ho Shih believes then that the two heroes are mentioned on account of their supposed skill in the use of spies. But this is very weak.
27
Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. #Tu Mu closes with a note of warning: "Just as water, which carries a boat from bank to bank, may also be the means of sinking it, so reliance on spies, while production of great results, is oft-times the cause of utter destruction."
Spies are a most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability to move. #Chia Lin says that an army without spies is like a man without ears or eyes.
phgreek
New member
- Messages
- 6,956
- Reaction score
- 433
Personally, I'm ok with spies when their means are directed primarily at enemies.
It is bad for everyone when someone gets fingered as perpetrating specific operations on a friendly like the EU...but lets be honest...every one of them engages as well....and no they don't do it as well, because if they did Harry Reid would be in jail.
I'm not ok with much of what the NSA has been up to as of late that relates to domestic data gathering. The government has shown it is incapable of protecting such data from the most cunning and devastating threat...itself.
It is bad for everyone when someone gets fingered as perpetrating specific operations on a friendly like the EU...but lets be honest...every one of them engages as well....and no they don't do it as well, because if they did Harry Reid would be in jail.
I'm not ok with much of what the NSA has been up to as of late that relates to domestic data gathering. The government has shown it is incapable of protecting such data from the most cunning and devastating threat...itself.
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
The thing is, with our population being so diverse and free, it's too easy for a terrorist to hide amongst us. I would love it if we lived in a world where we didn't have to monitor anything, but not doing so these days would be negligent IMHO.
B
Buster Bluth
Guest
This truly smacks of fascism.
Tell me Bobd, what is a terrorist? And more importantly, what is the specific definition the federal government uses to define a terrorist? And most importantly, then why was this being done years before 9/11, and why don't they delete this stuff after a period of time (25 years? 10 years?)?
- Messages
- 20,894
- Reaction score
- 8,126
Has anyone in this thread argued against traditional spying?
So you don't see any distinction between traditional spying on a foreign government, and massive dragnet-style spying on American citizens, without suspicion or due process?
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
I don't understand your consistent and apparent malcontent. For being as smart as I think you are, you are truly misguided. What the hell do you think a terrorist is? Would you really rather sit here and nitpick a definition? Do you think 9/11 was the birth of terrorism? You don't understand that in order to find a needle in a haystack, you need the entire haystack?
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
Unfortunately we live in a world were your neighbor might sell you and your way of life down the river for a couple of bucks. We need to get away from the rose colored glasses and man up to reality. There are no perfect answers. I'd love it if we didn't need to worry about these things, but we've got issues that require us to sacrifice a bit.
phgreek
New member
- Messages
- 6,956
- Reaction score
- 433
The retention of the haystack itself poses a pretty big threat. The thing is, you know you can't guarantee what or how it may be used by a rogue government or even rogue elements within the government. One thing is for absolute certain...it will be misused...no doubt in anyone's mind...probably not even yours Bobd. And its misuse has the potential to shake this nation to its foundation...This is one I have no tolerance for, nor motivation to compromise.
That there is a threat to my well being that I should surrender liberty for myself and my brothers...makes me a coward. JMHO. and yea, its fine to take actions that result in a period of some suspended liberties...we all get that...this is asking for a true surrender...the answer needs to be no.
B
Buster Bluth
Guest
Nor do I understand your willingness to allow a government to be able to view your entire life in pursuit of an unachievable 100% success rate against "terrorism."
What I think a terrorist is could be much different than what the FBI/CIA think a terrorist is.
Your answer suggests a sad willingness to ignore the history of law and particularly the law's ability to be used for things it wasn't created for. This spying program will be used for things other than to fight Al-Qaeda and Co., I'd guess that pedophiles will be the first, and of course people will agree. After all, how could one dare side with the pedophiles?!
Your response also fails to at least acknowledge that the government's definition is absurdly broad, and that it's basically anyone who disagrees with the government (and would/could use violence to intimidate it). The definition isn't at all aimed at the classic stereotypical terrorist, but that's just the crazy thing....you can't defeat terrorism. You can't EVER claim victory over it. By our government's definition the Founding Fathers were terrorists in their day.
I like my laws to be as specific as possible, so I am not subject to breaking them daily depending on the viewpoint. That's the issue with America's ridiculous justice system.
I also think its funny and sad that you'll defend the egregious program and then complain about have to actually define the target. Isn't that ironic?
We haven't even established what terrorism is, so how would I know when it was born?
So why don't we let the government have the entire haystack then? You wouldn't want that though, would you? Where do you actually draw the line on your privacy?
Last edited:
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
Do you really have a phone call or internet communication they've stored away that has the potential to shake this nation to its foundation?
They have a bunch of mostly worthless crap to sort through.
Here's the file they have on me:
BobD
1. Likes football, boobs and beer.
2. Sucks at golf.
3. His hands free cell device sounds like he's in the restroom.
4. Treats his dog like a human child.
5. Everyone on the freeway in front of him during rush hour is a worthless douche.
I think folks are way over blowing this and being way too dramatic.
phgreek
New member
- Messages
- 6,956
- Reaction score
- 433
Do you really have a phone call or internet communication they've stored away that has the potential to shake this nation to its foundation?
They have a bunch of mostly worthless crap to sort through.
Here's the file they have on me:
BobD
1. Likes football, boobs and beer.
2. Sucks at golf.
3. His hands free cell device sounds like he's in the restroom.
4. Treats his dog like a human child.
5. Everyone on the freeway in front of him during rush hour is a worthless douche.
I think folks are way over blowing this and being way too dramatic.
No...I don't think I do...if I use the IRS as my moral compass that is.
Your list is my list too...This is about the potential for an IRS-type targeting scheme being conducted from this data...or even sh!t we can't think of yet. The retention of your digital docier over your adult lifetime would render you at least "guilty" by association of some sort. But to me a really big issue is not the individual or systematic use of this data...its also the threat of it. Its just not credible on the first of July 2013 to say the danger and concern for misuse of this information is not in and of itself enough to impact people's sense of freedom and liberty...to me, that's a no-no. Then, the actual impact to someone's life that could be dealt from this data...and the future abuses...sorry, I don't think this is empty drama...these are real concerns. And the thing that will rock this nation is not the content of the information of any one person...it'll be that it was used against them in any way.
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
You're an intelligent guy....you think if our government stops its programs all the others will too?
Do you know why China has one half a$$ aircraft carrier but thousands of government hackers?
You live in your idealistic world, I'll live in the real one.
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
One thing I don't think some of you realize, do you have any idea how much information your internet provider, cell phone carrier, financial companies, internet search engines and sites like Facebook have on you? Have you ever actually read a terms of use?
phgreek
New member
- Messages
- 6,956
- Reaction score
- 433
One thing I don't think some of you realize, do you have any idea how much information your internet provider, cell phone carrier, financial companies, internet search engines and sites like Facebook have on you? Have you ever actually read a terms of use?
...but only the government has the power to use such data in ways which can ruin my life...these guys can use it to sell me **** I don't need.
BobD
Can't get no satisfaction
- Messages
- 7,918
- Reaction score
- 1,034
So the same exact info is ok for companies to have, just not the government? You don't think financial companies could ruin your life?
phgreek
New member
- Messages
- 6,956
- Reaction score
- 433
Exactly. Seems absurd on its face, but those companies only exist because they don't do bad sh!t w/ my data...if they did, people would leave them and they'd cease to be...They can not use my data to take away my liberty or ruin my life and misusing my data or even being negligent with it does not serve them.
the government has no such recourse in their operating model...they target people and get caught, so.... The IRS folks aren't elected officials, and many will just keep their job, so when the government screws up...what are you going to do about it? its not like if people found out the government was doing bad things with the haystack, they could simply put their trust in another government...at least not w/o bloodshed...so its up to us to NOT give them such opportunities.
Not sure how a financial company does something to me that does not threaten to take them out too...
kmoose
Banned
- Messages
- 10,298
- Reaction score
- 1,181
So what's to keep the all-powerful government from just getting this information from the companies' databases, instead of their own?
phgreek
New member
- Messages
- 6,956
- Reaction score
- 433
I assumed we were taking about why you'd prohibit the government from accumulating this data in one place, and keeping it, and Bobd pointed out that private companies already do it anyway, so why should I care (I think):
So to me the underlying presumption in this discussion...at least from my chair, is the government would be prohibited from accumulating it, or ordering private companies to accumulate it for them.
In practical terms, to answer your question...nothing is stopping them...they do it now. But it is my desire to stop them from accumulating it, or ordering others to accumulate it for them.
Couple other points to make...
companies use the data to profile you for business purposes (not saying that's cool either), but normally dispose of the raw data because it costs money to keep it. Whats left is determinations they've made about you based on your digital footprint...but it changes and is fleeting...it is not an archive. The only reason some keep data more than 30 days right now is that the government dogged them into doing it.