George Zimmerman Trial

[irishpat183]

Where did the above picture come from? Because it wasn't taken by the police. It wasn't included with the photos taken by the crime techs.

That being said, this isn't proof of a life threatening situation. There isn't even proof TM did this. And of course the huge gulf in the GZ story is even though this looks like a minor beating, not enough on its own to use deadly force, it would have been enough to leave GZ DNA on TM, if TM did it. And there was none. I can't get over that.

It was taken by a neighbor the night of the attack. I should've claified, my bad.


And what you consider "life-threating" makes me nervous. Some kid on top of me beating on me telling me I'm gonna die is reason enough to use deadly force.

How can you tell me that Martin would've stopped had Zimmerman NOT had a weapon? You can't. Therefore we have to assume that he would've kept going.

 

[irishpat183]

Ha. Fair point.

The dude definitely looks Hispanic. But that doesn't mean he's not white:



This is all true. Hispanic isn't a race. It just means you come from a Spanish-speaking country. Spanish people are "white," i.e. Caucasian. But it was very common for Spanish colonists (unlike most European colonists) to intermarry with the indigenous population, and the majority of the people we now think of in this country as "Hispanic" have both European and Native American ancestry.

Mestizo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, as SoCal pointed out, plenty of people from South American countries are totally "white," i.e., of entirely European ancestry. Or if they aren't, you can't tell the difference. I went to school with apparently "white" people from Nicaragua, Mexico, Guatemala, Peru and Argentina (although Argentina is kind of an exception in that there wasn't much intermarriage there). So it gets pretty tricky when you talk about the "race" of Hispanic people.

How about this...He labels himself hispanic. And who are we to deny him of what he labels himself?

So I guess it doesn't matter what we, or the media, think...LOL

 

[connect the dots]

Where did the above picture come from? Because it wasn't taken by the police. It wasn't included with the photos taken by the crime techs.

That being said, this isn't proof of a life threatening situation. There isn't even proof TM did this. And of course the huge gulf in the GZ story is even though this looks like a minor beating, not enough on its own to use deadly force, it would have been enough to leave GZ DNA on TM, if TM did it. And there was none. I can't get over that.

This photograph was taken by a neighbor? When were crime tech pictures taken, that night or the following morning? Inferior investigative police work. No wonder the Sanford police chief, Bill Lee, resigned. Embarrassed by the work of his staff.

 

[woolybug25]

Obviously the media, TV, Radio, print, and internet aren't reasonably intelligent human beings then based on their coverage.

You knew the first time. Please expound on your anthropological visual acuity.

If Irishpat had made that statement he would have been pounced on.

Why would he be pounced on? For saying that he looks Latino? He does look Latino. Do you disagree with that statement? If so, I question you honesty. I also don't recall the media calling this a white on black crime. I haven't heard that a single time. Just that it was racially motivated. Again... Rascism isn't reserved strictly for white people.

You can just answer the question like a normal person too. I have no intentions to engage in dialogue with you if plan on continuing the patronizing attitude.

 

[jmurphy75]

Why would he be pounced on? For saying that he looks Latino? He does look Latino. Do you disagree with that statement? If so, I question you honesty. I also don't recall the media calling this a white on black crime. I haven't heard that a single time. Just that it was racially motivated. Again... Rascism isn't reserved strictly for white people.

You can just answer the question like a normal person too. I have no intentions to engage in dialogue with you if plan on continuing the patronizing attitude.

It was originally called a white on black shooting, it wasn't until almost day 3/4 when it came out GZ was hispanic

 

[woolybug25]

It was originally called a white on black shooting, it wasn't until almost day 3/4 when it came out GZ was hispanic

Link?

Like I said. The first time I heard about it, they showed a picture of Zimmerman, who is clearly someone with minority heritage, clearly evident by his photograph imo. Seriously, are any of you really saying that when you saw the picture of Zimmerman (which was VERY early after the incident) that you thought he didn't have some type of minority heritage?

and not to continually beat a dead horse..... but the accusations of racsism are have nothing to do with Zimmerman's race.

 

[BobD]

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/leprechaun-lounge/65776-hey-fat-ss-10.html

http://www.irishenvy.com/forums/leprechaun-lounge/65776-hey-fat-ss-10.html

 

[NDPhilly]

Maybe his attorney told him that he would look more innocent if he was fat?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

It was taken by a neighbor the night of the attack. I should've claified, my bad.


And what you consider "life-threating" makes me nervous. Some kid on top of me beating on me telling me I'm gonna die is reason enough to use deadly force.

How can you tell me that Martin would've stopped had Zimmerman NOT had a weapon? You can't. Therefore we have to assume that he would've kept going.

Zimmerman didn't have a concussion. No concussion whatsoever. And hours later his nose appeared to be bleeding when it wasn't noted by the paramedic on the scene. Remember he went through the same rain that he claims washed all of the blood evidence off of TM. It all doesn't make sense.

Also, I had twelve people tell me that TM had drugs in his system. He registered positive for THC in such a small dose, that all that could be said was he had smoked marijuana in the weeks prior to his murder. I cannot tell you the number of intelligent people I know that want to demonize this kid. It truly amazes me.

 

[TCramer]

It doesn't matter what his injuries sustained were..(though it helps his defense) the fact of the matter comes down to whether or not he felt his life was in immediate danger and he had no plausible escape from the situation, that's the basis of self defense. In my opinion, I would say he has not met the burden of proof for self defense.

 

[GoIrish41]

No, he shot a teenager that was slamming his head agasint the sidewalk.

Facts.

He didn't walk up to a "kid doing nothing" and shoot him. That's a load of crap.

For a guy who is focused on "facts" you seem to be assuming a lot based on the statements of a guy who has everything to gain by lying.

 

[GoIrish41]

His mom's Peruvian.

Martin no doubt attacked him on site because of his deep hatred for Peruvians.

 

[Cackalacky]

Martin no doubt attacked him on site because of his deep hatred for Peruvians.

I believe she is half black, so....wait a sec.....

 

[GoIrish41]

Knock knock

Who's there?

George Zimmerman

George Zimmerman who?

OK, you are on the jury.

Perhaps the most insensitive, inappropriate and idiotic opening statement in the history of the American justice system. Leading your defense in a murder trial with a knock, knock joke in front of the victim's family is absurd and alienating the jury by essentially saying you are the six most uninformed people in the state of Florida is wreckless and dumb. What kind of poor judgment would you have to have to pick that lawyer to defend you?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Knock knock

Who's there?

George Zimmerman

George Zimmerman who?

OK, you are on the jury.

Perhaps the most insensitive, inappropriate and idiotic opening statement in the history of the American justice system. Leading your defense in a murder trial with a knock, knock joke in front of the victim's family is absurd and alienating the jury by essentially saying you are the six most uninformed people in the state of Florida is wreckless and dumb. What kind of poor judgment would you have to have to pick that lawyer to defend you?

And everyone is saying the prosecution pointing out the mindset of Zimmerman with the famous "fuk you little a$$holes" comments is brilliant. Kind of paints a picture of GZ hard to overcome and guts a self defense argument. I understand how in Florida you don't any longer have to retreat, but I do believe that attacking is not a function of "not retreating."

 

[GoIrish41]

And everyone is saying the prosecution pointing out the mindset of Zimmerman with the famous "fuk you little a$$holes" comments is brilliant. Kind of paints a picture of GZ hard to overcome and guts a self defense argument. I understand how in Florida you don't any longer have to retreat, but I do believe that attacking is not a function of "not retreating."

to me this is the crux of the whole case. everyone can talk about how the scuffle and who hit who first. The thing that caused the incident to happen was that Zimmerman was hostile and overzealous. And if the stand your ground law is evenly applied, it would seem to me that Martin was within his rights to pre-emptively hit Zimmerman (if, and it is a big if, that even happened). I don't see a logical defense for Zimmerman.

 

[irishpat183]

Zimmerman didn't have a concussion. No concussion whatsoever. And hours later his nose appeared to be bleeding when it wasn't noted by the paramedic on the scene. Remember he went through the same rain that he claims washed all of the blood evidence off of TM. It all doesn't make sense.

Also, I had twelve people tell me that TM had drugs in his system. He registered positive for THC in such a small dose, that all that could be said was he had smoked marijuana in the weeks prior to his murder. I cannot tell you the number of intelligent people I know that want to demonize this kid. It truly amazes me.

Zimmerman has been labeled a racist killer. Which is probably the worst thing you can be in this country next to someone that f**ks with kids. Obama even compounded that by jumping on the bandwagon, so much for his "I'm not commenting on an on going investigation deal, huh?, with his If I had a kid comment. All that does is make it worse. But that's the goal in this case....not to find the truth, but to ignite the mob and get community activist down there to raise hell. Which is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Screw the facts (MSNBC) lets throw the race card and watch them go!

Martin is the same kid that struck his bus driver. He's no angel. Does that mean he desreved it? Of course not, I don't wish that on anyone.

But people keep using the word "kid" and pictures of when Martin was 12...it's irresponsible. He wasn't some poor wittle boy that lost his way home and big bad wolf killed him.

He was obviously a person who has a history of confrontation and drug use and profanity laced tirades on twitter and facebook. Call it juvinile, but if i'm the defense, I'm using it. Who has more cred? The guy with no violent history...or the young guy that has attacked an innocent person before? Why would I believe that it was Zimmerman that started the fight?

I feel for Martins family, I really do...especially after having my own two little ones. But I also feel for Zimmerman. Is he a cold blooded racist murderer? No. He didn't go out that night trying to find Martin to kill. He saw him, followed him to see what he was up too, and a confrontation happened with Zimmerman feeling his life was in danger, and after looking at the photos, it looks like he has a point whether or not you feel that he did. Again, he was the one on the ground getting beat up.

What makes this even more frustrating...is where the hell are all you champions of justice when 20 Trayvon martins are getting gunned down in the streets of Chicago EVERY WEEK?

 

[irishpat183]

Why would he be pounced on? For saying that he looks Latino? He does look Latino. Do you disagree with that statement? If so, I question you honesty. I also don't recall the media calling this a white on black crime. I haven't heard that a single time. Just that it was racially motivated. Again... Rascism isn't reserved strictly for white people.

You can just answer the question like a normal person too. I have no intentions to engage in dialogue with you if plan on continuing the patronizing attitude.

Do you not watch TV? LOL

 

[GoIrish41]

Zimmerman has been labeled a racist killer. Which is probably the worst thing you can be in this country next to someone that f**ks with kids. Obama even compounded that by jumping on the bandwagon, so much for his "I'm not commenting on an on going investigation deal, huh?, with his If I had a kid comment. All that does is make it worse. But that's the goal in this case....not to find the truth, but to ignite the mob and get community activist down there to raise hell. Which is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. Screw the facts (MSNBC) lets throw the race card and watch them go!

The extent to which Zimmerman has be labled a racist killer derives from his own words on the 9-1-1 tape. I heard on the news last night that the prosecution is trying to get multiple additional calls admitted into court on which Zimmerman made similar inappropriate comments all when black people were walking through the neighborhood. I started paying attention after the report had begun, but I think I heard that there were 46 such calls to the non-emergency 9-1-1 operator and in each case it was a black person who looked "suspicious." The claims of racism are apparently not without merit. You can blame the president and MSNBC for this crime, but neither Obama or Racheal Maddow followed a kid through the neighborhood with a loaded gun and created a conflict that did not need to happen. Neither of them was standing over a dead teenager when the police arrived. It seems that you are unwilling to question if Zimmerman might have had any role in provoking the incident or in exercising poor judgment. Others -- many others -- see it differently, and the evidence that I have heard points to a guy who was looking for a confrontation, got it, and is now trying to lie his way out of any fault for it.

Martin is the same kid that struck his bus driver. He's no angel. Does that mean he desreved it? Of course not, I don't wish that on anyone.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he was an angel.

But people keep using the word "kid" and pictures of when Martin was 12...it's irresponsible. He wasn't some poor wittle boy that lost his way home and big bad wolf killed him.

That kind of sensitivity could land you a job on Zimmerman's defense team. lol
17 years old is a kid.

He was obviously a person who has a history of confrontation and drug use and profanity laced tirades on twitter and facebook. Call it juvinile, but if i'm the defense, I'm using it. Who has more cred? The guy with no violent history...or the young guy that has attacked an innocent person before?

If you can show that Zimmerman knew all this when he racially profiled Martin, then you should use it. Otherwise, it is irrelevant.

Why would I believe that it was Zimmerman that started the fight?
QUOTE]

Because you are a smart guy who listened to the 9-1-1 tape at an angry guy pursuing a kid and describing your anger to the operator. You heard him being told not to pursue and he continued to pursue. Why would you think Martin started the fight?

What makes this even more frustrating...is where the hell are all you champions of justice when 20 Trayvon martins are getting gunned down in the streets of Chicago EVERY WEEK?

This is an idiotic statement. I know for a fact that people have expressed frustration with these murders on this site continuously, but that was in the context of gun control when you had your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalalalalal, I can't hear you."

 

[BGIF]

For a guy who is focused on "facts" you seem to be assuming a lot based on the statements of a guy who has everything to gain by lying.

For a guy that claims to know the facts as you told us that you listened to the 911 call over and over again "with my own ears", why have you misrepresented the FACT that Zimmerman didn't ignore "the direction of the police"?

The 911 OPERATOR testified that he said, " Okay we don't need you to do that". He added that they don't give directions because of insurance liability concerns.

According to you Zimmerman is the one with something to gain by lying. Yet you have repeatedly misrepresented that 911 call in multiple posts. What are you trying to gain through your deception?


You note he has different recollections of events. Perhaps he does, but then he was in a fight, broken nose, bloody face, and the back of his head bloody from it being bashed into a concrete sidewalk? Then there's the lifeless body. Dead from his gun. Might your adrenalin be pumping? Your heart racing? Your head aching? How lucid would you be when the police interrogated you on the scene for their report?

Then how consistent would you be during in-depth interrogation at the station by trained interrogators with the threat of spending the rest of life in prison?

The reason I ask is that in each one of your posts on the 911 call where you stress that he was the confronter because he refused to follow the directions the you heard with your own ears many times ... you changed the wording AND the meaning of the OPERATOR suggestion. You didn't change the OPERATOR's words once, you misrepresented the wording and the lack of authority that OPERATOR possesses each time. Your inconsistency was consistent, passionately inconsistent

Why? A lifetime of outrage? Don't listen well? Or just trying to win an internet discussion? Whatever the reason, you've had 18 months to watch the news, read and reread articles, look at photos, and the ability to replay the call with your own ears many times and you got it wrong. He did it in real time.

That's why there's a justice system.

All of the evicence I heard with my own ears suggests that Zimmerman was the aggressor. He is the only one who said that Martin said he was going to kill him and attacked. My question is why should we believe him since he is the one who ignored the direction of the police

.

No, he didn't get "direction from the police" he got a suggestion from an operator that he didn't HAVE to do that.

If the jury finds him guilty under the statute charged, I trust they do so because the evidence proved he was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Not because they can't listen, nor they don't like his attorney's inept joke, nor because they want an eye for an eye guilty or not.

 

[BGIF]

911operator

911operator

Per CNN

Opening statements begin Zimmerman trial - CNN.com

Among the first prosecution witnessed called was the 911 dispatcher who took Zimmerman's call before the shooting. Seat Noffke testified that he was trained to give general commands instead of direct orders to people.
When Zimmerman said he was following Martin, Noffke told him, "Okay we don't need you to do that." Noffke told the prosecutor he's liable for any direct orders he gives someone.
On cross-examination, defense attorney O'Mara pointed out that Noffke asked Zimmerman, "Which way is he running?"
"If you tell somebody twice to let you know if the person that they're concerned about is doing anything else -- do you think they're going to keep their eye on them?" asked O'Mara.
"I can't answer that," said Noffke.
"You did tell him twice to let you know if that guy did anything else," said O'Mara.
"Yes sir," said Noffke.

 

[woolybug25]

Do you not watch TV? LOL

If i'm such a dumb@ss, then it will be pretty easy for you to find me a reputable news agency, paper or magazine that referred to this as a white on black crime, right? I have googled it and find a bunch of of right wing blogs that make the claims you do, but none have a clip or article that they specifically refer to. Everything I see refers to his race as either hispanic or white-hispanic.

Or you could just respond with another smart@ss one liner with a caps locked LOL again. Since the capslock really emphasized how emphatically you found my comment. Very clever.

 

[irishpat183]

If i'm such a dumb@ss, then it will be pretty easy for you to find me a reputable news agency, paper or magazine that referred to this as a white on black crime, right? I have googled it and find a bunch of of right wing blogs that make the claims you do, but none have a clip or article that they specifically refer to. Everything I see refers to his race as either hispanic or white-hispanic.

Or you could just respond with another smart@ss one liner with a caps locked LOL again. Since the capslock really emphasized how emphatically you found my comment. Very clever.

Nobody called you a dumba$$.

Again, do you watch TV?

 

[GoIrish41]

For a guy that claims to know the facts as you told us that you listened to the 911 call over and over again "with my own ears", why have you misrepresented the FACT that Zimmerman didn't ignore "the direction of the police"?

The 911 OPERATOR testified that he said, " Okay we don't need you to do that". He added that they don't give directions because of insurance liability concerns.

According to you Zimmerman is the one with something to gain by lying. Yet you have repeatedly misrepresented that 911 call in multiple posts. What are you trying to gain through your deception?


You note he has different recollections of events. Perhaps he does, but then he was in a fight, broken nose, bloody face, and the back of his head bloody from it being bashed into a concrete sidewalk? Then there's the lifeless body. Dead from his gun. Might your adrenalin be pumping? Your heart racing? Your head aching? How lucid would you be when the police interrogated you on the scene for their report?

Then how consistent would you be during in-depth interrogation at the station by trained interrogators with the threat of spending the rest of life in prison?

The reason I ask is that in each one of your posts on the 911 call where you stress that he was the confronter because he refused to follow the directions the you heard with your own ears many times ... you changed the wording AND the meaning of the OPERATOR suggestion. You didn't change the OPERATOR's words once, you misrepresented the wording and the lack of authority that OPERATOR possesses each time. Your inconsistency was consistent, passionately inconsistent

Why? A lifetime of outrage? Don't listen well? Or just trying to win an internet discussion? Whatever the reason, you've had 18 months to watch the news, read and reread articles, look at photos, and the ability to replay the call with your own ears many times and you got it wrong. He did it in real time.

That's why there's a justice system.



.

No, he didn't get "direction from the police" he got a suggestion from an operator that he didn't HAVE to do that.

If the jury finds him guilty under the statute charged, I trust they do so because the evidence proved he was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. Not because they can't listen, nor they don't like his attorney's inept joke, nor because they want an eye for an eye guilty or not.

you can quibble over the exact words all you would like, but the intent was crystal clear when the operator "suggested" that "he didn't need to do that" she was saying you shouldn't follow him. I don't think anyone is debating that at all. And, I never made any suggestion that the operator had any authority whatever. I simply said he heard, just as I did, what was clear and he ignored it. Whether or not the operator was in a position of authority, he understood what she was saying and continued to pursue Martin ... and then the confrontation happened. I don't think any of that is in dispute. If it is, it would be a pretty big reach.

 

[irishpat183]

GoIrish:

When Zimmerman was ASKED BY THE OPERATOR was Martin "black, white, or hispanic"

Zimmerman, on tape, stated "I THINK he's black".

Doesn't sound like profiling to me. He wasn't even sure of Martin's race,. How can you "profile" if you're not even sure?? LOL. Come on!

Either you're follwoing the MSNBC edited version of the tape, or you're just ignoring facts.


And like BGIF said, it's an operator. Due to liablity they can't tell you anything. If someone breaks into your home to rob and possibly harm you...they tell you to go hide and wait for police. It's protocal and operators are NOT police.

Again, media manipulation. Which unfairly targeted Zimmerman

 

[woolybug25]

Nobody called you a dumba$$.

Again, do you watch TV?

I do. Show me proof or quit making false claims. Simple as that.

 

[irishpat183]

you can quibble over the exact words all you would like, but the intent was crystal clear when the operator "suggested" that "he didn't need to do that" she was saying you shouldn't follow him. I don't think anyone is debating that at all. And, I never made any suggestion that the operator had any authority whatever. I simply said he heard, just as I did, what was clear and he ignored it. Whether or not the operator was in a position of authority, he understood what she was saying and continued to pursue Martin ... and then the confrontation happened. I don't think any of that is in dispute. If it is, it would be a pretty big reach.

You have no point at all. Again, this is a losing battle for Martin's defense. It might as well been a fast food drive thru person "advising" Zimmerman.

Had an acutal cop told Zimmerman not to follow someone? Different story.


Do you know how much BAD advice 911 operators give as well?

 

[irishpat183]

Actual call:

Zimmerman: Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]

Dispatcher:OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:He looks black

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. Either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]

Dispatcher:He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

Zimmerman:Now he’s just staring at me. [00:48]

Dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman:That’s the clubhouse.

Dispatcher:He’s near the clubhouse right now?

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. And he’s a black male.[1:03]





When is Zimmerman actually racially profiling again? I'll wait....

 

[Emcee77]

I think the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's instructions is getting too much play in this thread. It doesn't prove anything.

 

[FLDomer]

If i'm such a dumb@ss, then it will be pretty easy for you to find me a reputable news agency, paper or magazine that referred to this as a white on black crime, right? I have googled it and find a bunch of of right wing blogs that make the claims you do, but none have a clip or article that they specifically refer to. Everything I see refers to his race as either hispanic or white-hispanic.

Or you could just respond with another smart@ss one liner with a caps locked LOL again. Since the capslock really emphasized how emphatically you found my comment. Very clever.

George Zimmerman was originally identified as white. Then his family said he was Hispanic. Which is it?

Zimmerman is identified as "white" in the original police report. However, according to CBS News investigative producer Pia Malbran, who has been reporting from Miami, police in Florida routinely label Hispanics who don't have black skin as "white," even if they have ethnic facial features. The Associated Press reports that Zimmerman's mother, Gladys, is originally from Peru. Both she and George Zimmerman identified themselves as "Hispanic" in their voter registrations. Robert Zimmerman, George's father, lists himself as "white."

Trayvon Martin shooting: What do we know? - Crimesider - CBS News


I remember it being reported in the news programs early on when this was all being reported. I will check for other links Wooly but you might be able to find it too, check out Wesh 2 News and Channel 13 Brighthouse Networks.

Heres one:
Trayvon Martin shooting raises questions: Trayvon Martin's death raises painful, pressing questions - OrlandoSentinel.com

"On the way back, he drew the attention of George Zimmerman, captain of the Neighborhood Watch. Zimmerman, who is white, called police from his SUV and told them he was following a "suspicious" character. The dispatcher promised to send a prowl car and told Zimmerman to stay in his vehicle"