A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[ND NYC]

another thought:

isnt the real drama what is up in the North (and heading south). what rayders crew are afraid of and what the wall was built for in the first place. whatever is on its way will need either 1) a united realm (all families) to fight it and kill it once and for all...and/or 2) thos dragons to incinerate those things.

is it setting up for the realm to unite together to fight off those things for an ultimate final battle to end this thing?

or is the real drama on who will ultimatley take the iron throne when this is done?

 

[IrishLax]

When Tywin sends Tyrion to King's Landing, doesn't he answer Tyrion's question by telling him "because you are my son" or words to that effect? I might be mixing the show with the books here but I'm pretty sure it's a similar scene in both. I also think it fits because Tywin seems to feel a particularly strong shame about Tyrion.

The one thing that has never stopped bugging me is how Petyr was able to convince the singer to confess to killing Lysa. I am pretty sure THAT was never explained.

That was actually explained pretty well I thought. Petyr basically tortured him and said "Look, you're dead no matter what... either we let you have a a comfortable last couple days and you confess... or we torture you and make your last remaining days miserable."

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What are each of the 3s in Dani's prophecy thing? I can see multiple explanations of each.

Some have already been fulfilled. Others definitely haven't.

Is Dani eventually going to go to Asshai and then sail east to land on Westeros? That'd be pretty boss... and Caterly Rock would be effed.

One theory holds that this prophecy was actually fulfilled at the end of ADwD.

What exactly is the deal with shade of the evening?

Hard to say, as Martin never really tips his hand as to whether it's truly effective or not. But given that Euron Greyjoy, who seems to be rather knowledgeable of the supernatural, decided to start drinking it, I'm inclined to think there's some significance to it.

How exactly, with the way the map is constructed, is someone supposed to sail from anywhere into slaver's bay without getting dangerous close to Valyria? Seems like a ridiculously perilous trip.

Euron claims to have successfully sailed to Valyria and returned. I assume the danger involved is commonly exaggerated due to superstition.

Is Arya going to end up going full darkside?

Doubt it. She's clearly one of Martin's favorites.

Why is Jaquen H'ghar in Oldtown/what exactly is the deal with the maesters/did the maesters actually bring down the dragons the first time around? And do the Faceless Men have some sort of allegiance that isn't obvious right now?

Martin expressly spells out that the Citadel is hostile to magic, and that there's no room in the world they're building for dragons. Through Marwyn's dialogue, one could easily infer that the Maesters were responsible for the mysterious decline of the Targaryen dragons as well. I doubt the Faceless Men are allied with the Citadel since they use magic themselves, and Jaqen has to infiltrate their organization.

As for the orientation of the Faceless Men, I've never read anything convincing. They seem genuinely dedicated to their Many-Faced God (i.e. the Stranger, perhaps also the Great Other, etc.) If I had to pick between good or evil (which isn't a dichotomy that works well for many things in Martin's books), I'd have to go with evil.

Is R'hlorr bad, good, or inbetween? Do the Seven exist? The parallels between the Seven and early Catholicism is striking. What about other gods... is the Drowned God real (see: Patchface), are the Old Gods actually "gods"? There is a lot of the religious/god stuff that is intriguing to me.

I'm fairly certain he's not "good". As of now, I'd say "neutral", but I've read a few fan theories that posit Rhllor is actually the evil God.

In ASoS V, Davos prays to the Mother and thinks he hears a reply, but in retrospect, it's easily dismissed as a manifestation of Davos guilt. Overall, we've seen virtually no evidence that the Seven are real, whereas there's plenty of evidence for Rhllor, the Great Other, the Old Gods, etc.

There are some very interesting parallels between Rhllor/ Storm God v. Great Other/ Drowned God. Patchface's creepy songs are significant (for instance, he prophesies the Red Wedding), and Melisandre believes he is a "dangerous creature". There's a lot more there, but I'll need some time to pull it all together.

Is Tyrion a Targ? The "you are no son of mine" thing from Tywin had me do some digging... interesting theories out there.

There's some evidence that suggests all three Lannister children may be the progeny of Aerys and Joanna, though if true, that would mean Martin is really riding the "secret Targ" bit into the ground. He has stated that the "three heads of the dragon" don't all have to be Targaryen, so Tyrion could still fit the bill even if he's not Aerys' bastard.

isnt the real drama what is up in the North (and heading south). what rayders crew are afraid of and what the wall was built for in the first place. whatever is on its way will need either 1) a united realm (all families) to fight it and kill it once and for all...and/or 2) thos dragons to incinerate those things.

(1) is pretty much out of the question now, so (2) is Westeros' only hope. One of Dany's visions from the House of the Undying has her riding a dragon at the Trident and melting an army of frozen soldiers. Based on that, I assume the Others are going to push pretty far south before they're stopped, so things in Westeros are going to get seriously grim before Dany saves the day.

 

[TerryTate]

Stop taunting me with this thread.

 

[IrishinTN]

Is R'hlorr bad, good, or inbetween? Do the Seven exist? The parallels between the Seven and early Catholicism is striking. What about other gods... is the Drowned God real (see: Patchface), are the Old Gods actually "gods"? There is a lot of the religious/god stuff that is intriguing to me.

I don't think there's any way a God who demands continuous human sacrifice can be good. Especially after that creepy thing crawled out of Melisandre.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't think there's any way a God who demands continuous human sacrifice can be good. Especially after that creepy thing crawled out of Melisandre.

But if R'hlorr is the opposite of the Great Other........ and his chosen champion will be Azor Ahai... he can't be all "bad" either, right?

 

[IrishinTN]

Well, that is a good hypothetical based on Martin's broad theology, I suppose. Of course when you look at Martin's character development, every character then mirrors R'hlorr in that every one of them has made some sacrifice or done some deed for the greater good that might be considered evil in and of itself.

 

[Emcee77]

Is R'hlorr bad, good, or inbetween? Do the Seven exist? The parallels between the Seven and early Catholicism is striking. What about other gods... is the Drowned God real (see: Patchface), are the Old Gods actually "gods"? There is a lot of the religious/god stuff that is intriguing to me.

I'm fairly certain he's not "good". As of now, I'd say "neutral", but I've read a few fan theories that posit Rhllor is actually the evil God.

In ASoS V, Davos prays to the Mother and thinks he hears a reply, but in retrospect, it's easily dismissed as a manifestation of Davos guilt. Overall, we've seen virtually no evidence that the Seven are real, whereas there's plenty of evidence for Rhllor, the Great Other, the Old Gods, etc.

There are some very interesting parallels between Rhllor/ Storm God v. Great Other/ Drowned God. Patchface's creepy songs are significant (for instance, he prophesies the Red Wedding), and Melisandre believes he is a "dangerous creature". There's a lot more there, but I'll need some time to pull it all together.

Interesting stuff. It never occurred to me that any of the gods might be either "real" or "fake." I think of religion in the books the same way I think of religion in the real world ... they are all "real" in some sense. In Martin's world, unlike our world, miracles actually happen in a concrete way like they do in scripture, or really in an even more concrete, controllable way so that they are more like magic than miracles, but heretofore I've thought of that as the only difference.

 

[mgriff]

Stop thinking good and evil and start thinking balance. This is not the grand evil of Tolkien, this is a balance, a song of ice and fire.

I like the idea that the Faceless Men are tied to the Iron Bank of Braavos. The Iron Bank of Braavos and the Iron Coins of the Faceless Men. I think there is something to it. It would appear they've turned their payments into investments. It allows them to acquire more resources and expand influence to accomplish their mission.

Euron Greyjoy has also been contacted by the three-eyed crow and he's had a dragon egg that he "threw overboard when he got angry." More likely he used it to buy the killing of a king, Balon. Compensation is commensurate with target. I'd say a dragon egg for a king is pretty standard. With Victarion flipping sides to the red lot, that could be significant but Vic isn't that smart.

I see it lining up with the champions of both sides fighting one another, the cold ones of the north against the dragons and the red lot of R'hollor. Jon Snow is the crucial piece because he ties together ice and fire. Is that what Rhaegar read to make him find a Stark and make a baby? The official histories of Westeros are notoriously unreliable, but prophecy and Old Nan's stories seem to be the best sources.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I like the idea that the Faceless Men are tied to the Iron Bank of Braavos. The Iron Bank of Braavos and the Iron Coins of the Faceless Men. I think there is something to it. It would appear they've turned their payments into investments. It allows them to acquire more resources and expand influence to accomplish their mission.

I have wondered what they do with the money.

Maybe planning some kind of apocalypse? They are a cult of death.

 

[IrishLax]

Stop thinking good and evil and start thinking balance. This is not the grand evil of Tolkien, this is a balance, a song of ice and fire.

I like the idea that the Faceless Men are tied to the Iron Bank of Braavos. The Iron Bank of Braavos and the Iron Coins of the Faceless Men. I think there is something to it. It would appear they've turned their payments into investments. It allows them to acquire more resources and expand influence to accomplish their mission.

Euron Greyjoy has also been contacted by the three-eyed crow and he's had a dragon egg that he "threw overboard when he got angry." More likely he used it to buy the killing of a king, Balon. Compensation is commensurate with target. I'd say a dragon egg for a king is pretty standard. With Victarion flipping sides to the red lot, that could be significant but Vic isn't that smart.

I see it lining up with the champions of both sides fighting one another, the cold ones of the north against the dragons and the red lot of R'hollor. Jon Snow is the crucial piece because he ties together ice and fire. Is that what Rhaegar read to make him find a Stark and make a baby? The official histories of Westeros are notoriously unreliable, but prophecy and Old Nan's stories seem to be the best sources.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Great theory. I just have a hard time buying that there would be such a powerful organization that is actually 100% neutral and doesn't have some sort of allegiance/affiliation.
---
To the unbolded... I'm not thinking polar good/evil which is why I posed the question to begin with... to discuss to which degree which is which for the deities.

I have a weird inkling that the Others (and/or Great Other) isn't entirely "bad" (although... hating 'alive' things is... interesting... and conflicts with where I'm going) mainly because R'hlorr sure as hell doesn't seem like an entirely benevolent being. The other supernatural forces seem to imply that there is either more of an Olympian structure (i.e. many gods with differing flaws/powers and no one close to omnipotent) or a 2-sided eternal struggle between R'hlorr (and lieutenant deities?) and the Great Other (and lieutenant deities?). It seems maybe one is the domain of death and the other life with -- as you put it -- 'balance' a primary theme versus one side being good and the other evil.

I almost wonder if the wall wasn't made by men/CotF but rather by the Others (or maybe as a collaborative effort between the the different sides) as a line of demarcation after the first war... like, a Korean DMZ style "you get everything below this, we get everything above this... and we're making this line impassable". Or if it was magiced up to cover something or some other purpose... or was the byproduct of some other sort of spell or something that then was re-appropriated as the defensive bastion against the Others.

What doesn't make sense is if one side was decidedly winning/losing that they wouldn't try to finish off the other side. That is, if the men/CotF has a serious advantage they would've pressed it to eradicate the Others... and vice versa. You wouldn't just stop and start building a giant freaking wall for no reason... especially when no one seems to understand how they could build it in the first place.

 

[mgriff]

---
To the unbolded... I'm not thinking polar good/evil which is why I posed the question to begin with... to discuss to which degree which is which for the deities.

I have a weird inkling that the Others (and/or Great Other) isn't entirely "bad" (although... hating 'alive' things is... interesting... and conflicts with where I'm going) mainly because R'hlorr sure as hell doesn't seem like an entirely benevolent being. The other supernatural forces seem to imply that there is either more of an Olympian structure (i.e. many gods with differing flaws/powers and no one close to omnipotent) or a 2-sided eternal struggle between R'hlorr (and lieutenant deities?) and the Great Other (and lieutenant deities?). It seems maybe one is the domain of death and the other life with -- as you put it -- 'balance' a primary theme versus one side being good and the other evil.

I almost wonder if the wall wasn't made by men/CotF but rather by the Others (or maybe as a collaborative effort between the the different sides) as a line of demarcation after the first war... like, a Korean DMZ style "you get everything below this, we get everything above this... and we're making this line impassable". Or if it was magiced up to cover something or some other purpose... or was the byproduct of some other sort of spell or something that then was re-appropriated as the defensive bastion against the Others.

What doesn't make sense is if one side was decidedly winning/losing that they wouldn't try to finish off the other side. That is, if the men/CotF has a serious advantage they would've pressed it to eradicate the Others... and vice versa. You wouldn't just stop and start building a giant freaking wall for no reason... especially when no one seems to understand how they could build it in the first place.

I view it as a bipolar structure between ice and fire. There are many gods but I think they all fall under the umbrella of one or the other. Now as far as the Wall comments go, there has been quite a detailed discussion on this already, and I really can't write it up any better, so I'll post an essay for your viewing pleasure. All credit for the essay to Black Crow over at westeros.org, he started and has kept the Heresy threads going. They are now on Heresy thread 53.

The Essay: At 700 feet high and 300 miles long, stretching from one side of Westeros to the other, the Wall dominates both Westeros and its history; seemingly for generations men willingly or otherwise have gone north to join the Nights Watch and stand guard on it against the day when the Others come south out of the Land of Always Winter; yet it figures neither in Maester Luwin’s history lesson, nor in the very similar introduction to the Sworn Sword.

Maester Luwin does at least refer to the Long Night in passing, but the curious thing about the Wall is that we don’t really know when, by whom or how it was actually built. That statement might seem a little surprising but at no point are we actually told the story. Conventionally the Wall is said to have been raised by Bran the Builder after the Others were defeated in order to prevent their return, and here’s AGoT Bran 4:Thousands and thousands of years ago, Brandon the Builder had raised Winterfell, and some said the Wall. Bran knew the story, but it had never been his favorite. Thus we never actually hear the story although there is a reference in the forthcoming World Book to Brandon seeking the help of the children of the Forest. We also have GRRM’s statement in an old SSM that it originally it was lower and took a long time to build, and Mormont’s claim that once upon a time ice was quarried from lakes in winter and that each Lord Commander tried to leave it higher than before.

On the one hand these scattered references can be, and have been, pieced together to create a coherent story, but on the other we have no way of knowing whether all or indeed any of these fragments are true, and a shrewd suspicion from other clues we’re given, including that SSM suggesting that Brandon may never have existed, that the story is mince: Much of those details [how the Wall was built] are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

That reference to Bran the Builder does however point to magic being required and that is consistent with both Melisandre’s statement in ADwD Jon:1 – “Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world” and also with a rather more sober assessment found by our mistress of whisperers: A scientific look at the Wall In short the Wall not only couldn’t have been raised by mortal men, even if they had the assistance of giants, it was magic built it and magic which keeps it up and given the importance of blood in dark magic generally – and Ygritte’s describing it as evil and built of blood – one has to wonder if GRRM is remembering Jennet Clouston’s cursing of the House of Shaws at the beginning of Kidnapped: “Blood built it, blood stopped the building of it and blood will bring it down – black will be its fall.”

In the meantime its hard to believe that the magic required to build that massive wall of Ice and keep it standing is not having an effect on the weather and that the magic is responsible for the strange seasons.

Which of course raises the question of who really built, when and why, and why also there is that secret portal under the Nightfort which predates all the other castles by a long way – and which by definition means it was originally the only portal between what increasing looks like two different realms; the realm of men and the realm of faerie, which in turn raises the possibility it was originally raised as a barrier between those realms to provide a last refuge for the Children and their allies.

And link to the thread where it can be found. HERESY 50 - A Dance with Dragons - A Forum of Ice and Fire

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I just read The Hedge Knight and came across some further evidence that the Maester's got rid of the dragons through poison:

He sat naked under the elm while he dried, enjoying the warmth of the spring air on his skin as he watched a dragonfly move lazily among the reeds. Why would they name it a dragonfly? he wondered. It looks nothing like a dragon. Not that Dunk had ever seen a dragon. The old man had, though. Dunk had heard the story half a hundred times, how Ser Arlan had been just a little boy when his grandfather had taken him to King’s Landing, and how they’d seen the last dragon there the year before it died. She’d been a green female, small and stunted, her wings withered. None of her eggs had ever hatched. “Some say King Aegon poisoned her,” the old man would tell. “The third Aegon that would be, not King Daeron’s father, but the one they named Dragonbane, or Aegon the Unlucky. He was afraid of dragons, for he’d seen his uncle’s beast devour his own mother. The summers have been shorter since the last dragon died, and the winters longer and crueler.

This reinforces the following Marwyn quote from ADwD:

"Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

Also interesting to note the connection between the death of the last dragon and the change in the weather. That lends credence to the "balance" theory.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I'm halfway through ADWD. So close to being able to read this thread!

 

[IrishLion]

Baby Aegon did not survive. Young Griff, or baby Aegon as some have decided, is in fact a Blackfyre. The male Blackfyre line died out, but the female line still existed. Varys and his sister were sold. Varys is one day suddenly taken for a ritual with his man parts. What's so special about Varys? He's got Kings Blood, something required for magic and reinforced through numerous Melisandre references. This also means his sister has royal blood as well.

Now Varys the street rat meets this guy Illyrio. Illyrio and Varys form a great partnership, they rescue Vary's sister, Illyrio falls in love, and they have a son. That son's clothes are in fact what Tyrion wears when he goes to Pentos. Illyrio then makes an awfully long, and uncommon trek, to see this boy off. Along the way Tyrion remarks that the fat cheesemonger never did anything but for gold. Illyrio responds with a cryptic answer about debts of the soul or heart. Either way, young Aegon is a black dragon, not a red. But it doesn't matter because there is a saying in the books, "Black or Red a dragon is still a dragon."

Varys and Illyrio are playing the game, and trying put Varys' nephew on the throne. They've got the support of the Golden Company, founded by Blackfyres. Explains why Varys just crippled the Lannisters and successfully holds the heir to Casterly Rock; Tyrion Lannister.

I think Jaime is the valonquar who will kill Cersei. She's older by a few moments remember...

Rereading ADwD, and just came across this line from Illyrio in Tyrion (II), as Tyrion asks him what made the Golden Company break contract with Myr: "Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more."

I didn't catch that the first time I read through, but I vaguely recall wondering "whose blood?" But now it makes sense, with the history of the Blackfyres and the Golden Company, and thinking that Illyrio/Varys are passing a Blackfyre scheme off as a Targaryen thing.

 

[mgriff]

Rereading ADwD, and just came across this line from Illyrio in Tyrion (II), as Tyrion asks him what made the Golden Company break contract with Myr: "Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more."

I didn't catch that the first time I read through, but I vaguely recall wondering "whose blood?" But now it makes sense, with the history of the Blackfyres and the Golden Company, and thinking that Illyrio/Varys are passing a Blackfyre scheme off as a Targaryen thing.

Tyrion has become a very key piece because if Varys was in with the Dornish on poisoning Joff and Tywin, he could potentially exonerate Tyrion somehow and have House Lannister as an aid to the already assembled houses under Connington for Aegon.

He could also be wooed by Daenarys and become a dragon rider. He could come barreling back to rescue House Lannister at the last, just like another famous Lannister and the person he is most similar to...his father Tywin. Remember his aunt once told Tywin that Tyrion was truly his son, one of the few people who actually knew Tywin Lannister.

So many great story arcs, so many possibilities!

 

[IrishinTN]

I thought Olenna Tyrell put the poison in Joffrey's glass. Highgarden poisoned that little punk, not the Dornish, right?

And I can see Tyrion dreaming of riding a dragon. Finally he would be taller than anyone else in the 7 kingdoms.

 

[ACamp1900]

Still upset that he didn't die violenetly,...

 

[IrishLax]

Tyrion has become a very key piece because if Varys was in with the Dornish on poisoning Joff and Tywin, he could potentially exonerate Tyrion somehow and have House Lannister as an aid to the already assembled houses under Connington for Aegon.

He could also be wooed by Daenarys and become a dragon rider. He could come barreling back to rescue House Lannister at the last, just like another famous Lannister and the person he is most similar to...his father Tywin. Remember his aunt once told Tywin that Tyrion was truly his son, one of the few people who actually knew Tywin Lannister.

So many great story arcs, so many possibilities!

Joff was poisoned by the Tyrells?

Tywin was shot with a crossbow?

 

[IrishinTN]

Joff was poisoned by the Tyrells?

Tywin was shot with a crossbow?

And no doubt who did the shooting on that one.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Joff was poisoned by the Tyrells?

Tywin was shot with a crossbow?

That's just what Martin wants you to think.

 

[mgriff]

I thought Olenna Tyrell put the poison in Joffrey's glass. Highgarden poisoned that little punk, not the Dornish, right?

And I can see Tyrion dreaming of riding a dragon. Finally he would be taller than anyone else in the 7 kingdoms.

It's thought by some to be a joint plot by the Dornish and Highgardeners. The Dornish for Tywin's sack of Kings Landing, and Joff because he's a monster. Tywin's body smelt worse than a normal body, a side effect of some Dornish poisons according to one of the maesters in the series.

Here's some of the evidence from boiledleather.com

ALL LEATHER MUST BE BOILED: Tywin Lannister: Dead Man Shitting?

“Where will I find my lord father?”
“In the solar with Lord Tyrell and Prince Oberyn.”
Mace Tyrell and the Red Viper breaking bread together? Strange and stranger.
​

—Jaime and Ser Meryn Trant, upon Jaime’s return to King’s Landing

“Widow’s blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons.”
​

—Grand Maester Pycelle, during Tyrion’s trial

“To be sure, I have much to thank your sister for. If not for her accusation at the feast, it might well be you judging me instead of me judging you.” The prince’s eyes were dark with amusement. “Who knows more of poison than the Red Viper of Dorne, after all?”
[…]
“Your father,” said Prince Oberyn, “may not live forever.”
Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle. Suddenly he was mindful of Elia again, and all that Oberyn had said as they crossed the field of ashes. He wants the head that spoke the words, not just the hand that swung the sword. “It is not wise to speak such treasons in the Red Keep, my prince. The little birds are listening.”
“Let them. Is it treason to say a man is mortal? Valar morghulis was how they said it in Valyria of old. All men must die. And the Doom came and proved it true.”
​

—Prince Oberyn Martell and Tyrion, in Tyrion’s cell

He found his father where he knew he’d find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.
[…]
For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.
Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, **** gold.
​

—from Tyrion’s assassination of Tywin during his escape from the black cells

The King’s Hand was rotting visibly. His face had taken on a greenish tinge, and his eyes were deeply sunken, two black pits. Fissures had opened in his cheeks, and a foul white fluid was seeping through the joints of his splendid gold-and-crimson armor to pool beneath his body.
[…]
Red-eyed and pale, Cersei climbed the steps to kneel above their father, drawing Tommen down beside her. The boy recoiled at the sight, but his mother seized his wrist before he could pull away.“Pray,” she whispered, and Tommen tried. But he was only eight and Lord Tywin was a horror. One desperate breath of air, then the king began to sob.“Stop that!” Cersei said. Tommen turned his head and doubled over, retching. His crown fell off and rolled across the marble floor. His mother pulled back in disgust, and all at once the king was running for the doors, as fast as his eight-year-old legs could carry him.
“Ser Osmund, relieve me,” Jaime said sharply, as Kettleblack turned to chase the crown. He handed the man the golden sword and went after his king. In the Hall of Lamps he caught him, beneath the eyes of two dozen startled septas. “I’m sorry,” Tommen wept. “I will do better on the morrow. Mother says a king must show the way, but the smell made me sick.”
This will not do. Too many eager ears and watching eyes.“Best we go outside, Your Grace.” Jaime led the boy out to where the air was as fresh and clean as King’s Landing ever got. Twoscore gold cloaks had been posted around the plaza to guard the horses and the litters. He took the king off to the side, well away from everyone, and sat him down upon the marble steps. “I wasn’t scared,” the boy insisted. “The smell made me sick. Didn’t it make you sick? How could you bear it, Uncle, ser?”
​

—Jaime, Cersei, and Tommen, during Tywin’s funeral.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Finished ADWD today. I'm interested to see how Jon Snow is resurrected and if he is resurrected as Azor Ahai and what Littlefinger's next move is. If Varys is going to be proactive and start assassinating people, Littlefinger is not going to be passive.

Stannis is the most interesting part of the puzzle IMO. He's a good leader and has R'hollor on his side, but it seems like most people concentrate on whether Sansa, Aegon, Jon, or Dany will be on the Iron Throne. Stannis may not be a Targaryen like the last 3 or have Littlefinger backing them like Sansa, but he's no slouch.

Is there anyone left who doesn't believe R+L=J? It'd be the biggest shock of the series if that didn't turn out to be true. Jon's parentage has to be something that could be figured out by the first four books, and besides Ned and Wylla, that's the only one that I think is possible really.

 

[ClausentoTate]

I'm waiting for Sansa's storyline to do something. She seems like the odd man out in the last book. Once Dany comes to Westeros I could see Littlefinger taking over the entire North and joining his army with Jon's (who as mentioned above will be resurrected as Azor Ahai) in exchange for even more land/titles and Sansa's hand. He's got it all planned out.

In the books there are three different people who could have killed Geoffrey, I wonder who the show will allude to as the killer. Tyrion definitely thinks he killed him, but it very well could have been the knight or anyone, really. Choking is a pretty normal way to die and the poison was available to basically anyone that could request it. Maybe the real assassin knew Tyrion's plan... Varys? Working for someone else? What Varys did at the end of Book 5 is very uncharacteristic of him. Definitely part of a much bigger plot twist coming later. I wouldn't be surprised if he was working for the Tyrells. Going again with the above post, what if they had been killing Tywin at the same time that Tyrion walked in on him in the privy? They could have used him via Varys as a scapegoat for killing the entire Lannister line all in one foul swoop (other than the kid and Jamie, who can't get land/titles).

What happened to Cat's white walker body? Hasn't been mentioned in quite a while. She was out on a killing spree then just nothing. What happened to Dondarrion?

The series alluded to Margaery being unchaste... what the heck? Cersei was supposed to be legitimately paranoid in the books, not have something to actually go on in her worries. We know Margaery wasn't banging Renly... If she knows that you "don't know what you like until you have it", she must have had a lot. I really don't like that, it messes with the image of Cersei I had in my head all through Book 4/5.

How is Yunkai going to fall without Strong Belwas? They'll probably use Jorah I guess. Lame.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I don't think Tyrion thinks he killed Joffrey. I think he said it to Jaime to hurt him because of the whole Tysha incident, and then he continues to say he did because he was convicted of it and it's his legacy now. The kingslayer and kinslayer gives him credit among the criminals he is now associating with.

Dondarrion gave up his life to resurrect Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart. She wasn't mentioned in A Dance With Dragons but I think she will come up in The Winds of Winter. She's terrorizing the realm, and whoever is on the Iron Throne won't be able to ignore her for long. I would not be surprised if she has a meeting with Sansa and Littlefinger soon.

Sansa will be doing something very soon. She's learning under Littlefinger who might be the smartest politician in the world. She's being groomed for leadership. I think Aegon and Sansa would make an interesting pair. Right now she's the rightful heir to the North and Vale, and Aegon is the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. It would be like the betrothal to Joffrey, except Aegon is actually legitimate.

I could see Sansa, Aegon, and Dany being the 3 heads of the dragon, but that would leave Jon Snow out, and I think it's pretty clear that he's Azor Ahai.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm waiting for Sansa's storyline to do something. She seems like the odd man out in the last book. Once Dany comes to Westeros I could see Littlefinger taking over the entire North and joining his army with Jon's (who as mentioned above will be resurrected as Azor Ahai) in exchange for even more land/titles and Sansa's hand. He's got it all planned out.

Except for the fact that he's a sociopathic pedophile who played a large role in the downfall of the Stark family. Things will not end well for Littlefinger.

In the books there are three different people who could have killed Geoffrey, I wonder who the show will allude to as the killer.

The books make it pretty clear that the Queen of Thorns (acting in concert with Littlefinger) killed Joffrey. The poison used to kill him is very rare.

What happened to Cat's white walker body? Hasn't been mentioned in quite a while. She was out on a killing spree then just nothing. What happened to Dondarrion?

Cat's not a wight. She simply didn't have a POV in ADwD. The timeline of AFfC and ADwD is supposed to overlap considerably. That said, Jaime's last POV chapter in ADwD makes it pretty clear that Cat released Brienne to lure Jaime into a Brotherhood trap.

Sansa will be doing something very soon. She's learning under Littlefinger who might be the smartest politician in the world. She's being groomed for leadership. I think Aegon and Sansa would make an interesting pair. Right now she's the rightful heir to the North and Vale

Harrold Hardyng is the heir to the Vale after Robert Arryn. Sansa only enters the picture if Sweetrobin dies and she marries Harry.

Aegon is the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms. It would be like the betrothal to Joffrey, except Aegon is actually legitimate.

Unlikely. He's probably a descendant of Blackfyre.

I could see Sansa, Aegon, and Dany being the 3 heads of the dragon, but that would leave Jon Snow out, and I think it's pretty clear that he's Azor Ahai.

I'm pretty sure Aegon is a side show, and Sansa's story arc won't go much beyond "naive little lady morphs into savvy courtier". Once she learns of the role Littlefinger played in her father's death, she'll be well-positioned to beat him at his own game and avenge her family.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I disagree with the Aegon Blackfyre theory. It's not like switching of babies is unheard of in this series, and I don't think Connington would have agreed to it if it wasn't the true king.

 

[Emcee77]

I'm not certain I buy that Aegon is a Blackfyre either, but I do agree with Whiskey that he is probably a side show. I expect him to be killed off at some point and not to play any major role in the resolution of the story. I just find it hard to believe that a character who comes into the story so late could be so important, the subject of a prophecy and all that. Just feels false.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

There's a lot of textual support for the Blackfyre connections of Aegon, Varys, Illyrio, and the Golden Company (see mgriff's posts, The Mystery Knight, etc.) AFAIK, there's virtually nothing to substantiate the Aegon Baby Swap theory.

Also, in the current Winds of Winter sample chapter, Daemon Sands strongly suspects that Aegon is illegitimate.

Finally, borrowing from Emcee's point above, legitimacy and lines of succession are major themes in Martin's books. If Aegon is in fact Rhaegar's son, that would be a very big deal (especially for Dany). His late introduction in the series and the manner in which he has returned to Westeros militate strongly (at least from a narrative perspective) against Aegon being a major character (i.e. the legitimate Targaryen heir).

 

[IrishLax]

Except for the fact that he's a sociopathic pederast who played a large role in the downfall of the Stark family. Things will not end well for Littlefinger.

Littlefinger is gay? And into little boys? What?