Why does ND always choke in the Tournament?

[IrishSteelhead]

I just see this as the same situation that Mark Richt is in down in Georgia. (I don't think Richt should be fired.)

I don't think you fire the guy who brought your team out of the hole it was in, who is recruiting pretty well, and still winning plenty of games.

It's not like we aren't headed in a good direction. That's what I don't get with you guys. Have we stopped making the tournament? Have we stopped winning in the Big East? No. So just chill out.

Chill out? This illusion that everything is fine will keep this charade (20 wins, 1st round exit, everyone pretends to be happy) going, and it certainly appears many want changes.


In CMR'S defense, he has won bowl games, a BCS game, and has a top 3 finish. Georgia fans are always taking sides with him, but at least he can say he's been there, and walked the walk at least once.

 

[ACamp1900]

Brey is safe and should be... but there is a certain point where conference tourney runs must well or sweet sixteen showing must happen here or there or most any coach in the country will be in trouble...

He hasn't reached that point yet imo, but eventually the next step must be taken.

 

[BeauBenken]

Chill out? This illusion that everything is fine will keep this charade (20 wins, 1st round exit, everyone pretends to be happy) going, and it certainly appears many want changes.


In CMR'S defense, he has won bowl games, a BCS game, and has a top 3 finish. Georgia fans are always taking sides with him, but at least he can say he's been there, and walked the walk at least once.

Everything is more than fine. We have better players than we've had in a long time coming in and a coach who has been winning with unathletic guys.

What's not to be excited about?

Just because we haven't done well in the postseason recently doesn't mean anything about the future.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

Everything is more than fine. We have better players than we've had in a long time coming in and a coach who has been winning with unathletic guys.

What's not to be excited about?

Just because we haven't done well in the postseason recently doesn't mean anything about the future.

Demetrius Jackson is a step in the right direction, but I still wanna see it, and will remain skeptical until then.

 

[irishroo]

So if we're not athletic enough to compete with Iowa State and Xavier, what happens when we move to the ACC and play the track team that is North Carolina twice a year? Could get real ugly

 

[Buster Bluth]

So if we're not athletic enough to compete with Iowa State and Xavier, what happens when we move to the ACC and play the track team that is North Carolina twice a year? Could get real ugly

1) That's not true.

2) Cooley, Knight, and Sherman aren't the future, so it's moot.

 

[gkautz10]

Why are you guys OK with mediocrity on the basketball court but not on the football field. This is a stupid double standard. ND does not have nonathletic guys. Brey needs to win in the tournament or he is gone, period. Look what happened at UCLA and Minnesota.

 

[RDU Irish]

Atkins and Grant really disappeared late this year. Those guys are touted as one of the best guard tandems in the league and from what I have seen of the NCAAs so far I would call them a below average pair relative to tourney level competition.

I also wonder about strength and conditioning, look at Grant and Atkins over the last few years. Are they any stronger, faster or bigger than when they came in?

Those f-ing uniforms were hideous too. Reminded me of any time I let my five year old girl dress herself.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Why are you guys OK with mediocrity on the basketball court but not on the football field. This is a stupid double standard. ND does not have nonathletic guys. Brey needs to win in the tournament or he is gone, period. Look what happened at UCLA and Minnesota.

Not comparable AT ALL. Those are basketball schools, and they expect to win and win big (Minnesota might be delusional, but they've had success in the past and they want it again) ND is not. ND is a football school with a basketball team.

You want to blame Brey...fine. I think he deserves some of the blame. But my blame goes to the administration that doesn't put its main support behind bball. Brey has one hand tied behind his back. This is not new to ND bball, and yet he's the only one since Digger's EARLY days who has been able to win with this situation.

You want to win? Get better facilities across the board, pay better, lower the standards to the same rate as the football team (I've read that admissions doesn't give Brey the breaks that the football team gets), etc. THEN you can put more pressure on Brey to win in the tourney. Until then though, no coach who wants to stay long-term is going to be better than Brey. You're delusional if you think that this is a destination job for a great coach. It's not even close to that.

 

[gkautz10]

Not comparable AT ALL. Those are basketball schools, and they expect to win and win big (Minnesota might be delusional, but they've had success in the past and they want it again) ND is not. ND is a football school with a basketball team.

You want to blame Brey...fine. I think he deserves some of the blame. But my blame goes to the administration that doesn't put its main support behind bball. Brey has one hand tied behind his back. This is not new to ND bball, and yet he's the only one since Digger's EARLY days who has been able to win with this situation.

You want to win? Get better facilities across the board, pay better, lower the standards to the same rate as the football team (I've read that admissions doesn't give Brey the breaks that the football team gets), etc. THEN you can put more pressure on Brey to win in the tourney. Until then though, no coach who wants to stay long-term is going to be better than Brey. You're delusional if you think that this is a destination job for a great coach. It's not even close to that.

I never said that ND is where basketball coaches want to be. Agreed that UCLA is a basketball school, however Minnesota is questionable. I said previously that we may not be able to get a better coach than Brey, but why not try instead of wallowing in mediocrity?

The double standard is what annoys me. ND is a big time D1 school in most every sport. The top in women's basketball, one of the top in hockey, lacrosse, soccer, football, and fencing. Average in track and men's basketball. Cross Country, baseball and softball are below average IMO but that is due to only being able to be outside for 2-3 months on the season. So with all these other great sports programs, why do we as fans and supporters only hold 1 sport to that level? I am an avid fan of any ND sports team and respect these athletes tremendously for accomplishing what they do at one of the top academic institutions in the world.

My personal opinion is that most of you hold the football team to a higher level than other sports teams because you are only a ND football fan. I however have these standards across the board. I can't rationalize to myself how I can hold one sports team, coaches, and athletes accountable but not the rest.

Bottom line is that Brey does not know how to game plan or get his players ready by using X and O's. He is a great motivator which is why ND has some big wins every once in awhile, Louisville this year Syracuse last year Alabama when they were #2 back when Russell Carter played for ND and many other games in the last 13 years. Instead of focusing on Iowa State and what he has to do to beat them, Brey harps on how great it is that they are in the tournament and get to ride a bus to the game instead of flying and staying several days in a hotel. Meanwhile he throws the same game plan out on the floor and tries to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

[NDinL.A.]

So if we're not athletic enough to compete with Iowa State and Xavier, what happens when we move to the ACC and play the track team that is North Carolina twice a year? Could get real ugly

It could get ugly, but it also might not. Not directed at you bro, but people act as if the ACC is like the SEC in football. Not even effing close. The ACC has sucked for the past 2 years. The Big East blew them out of the water for several years now. The ACC is about as top heavy as you can get. The majority of the teams suck royally. 4 measly teams in the tourney 2 years in a row.

Mighty Carolina sucked this year, BARELY beat Villanova (who we beat) and didn't get as far as teams like Marquette and Louisville, who we beat. Yeah, the #1 team in the nation, athletic as hell, got beat by ND this year. We also beat athletic as hell Kentucky with Noel (very down this year, but still).

So you add Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville to a very down ACC, and we're supposed to be scared by it? We've already dealt with those 3 teams and we've been fine in the Big East. Now we have to play Duke and Carolina and and NC State (say bye to Miami when they lose their 24 year-olds) and several weak programs instead of UConn and Georgetown and quality teams like Marquette and Cinci. I'm not scared at all outside of Duke and NC.

Look at the ACC outside of Duke, NC and Miami this year:

Virginia 11-7 22-11
Florida State 9-9 18-16
Maryland 8-10 24-12
Boston College 7-11 16-17
Georgia Tech 6-12 16-15
Wake Forest 6-12 13-18
Clemson 5-13 13-18
Virginia Tech 4-14 13-19

That doesn't strike fear in me in the regular season. We'll be fine. Tourney time though? Ugh...

 

[FLDomer]

It could get ugly, but it also might not. Not directed at you bro, but people act as if the ACC is like the SEC in football. Not even effing close. The ACC has sucked for the past 2 years. The Big East blew them out of the water for several years now. The ACC is about as top heavy as you can get Like the SEC. The majority of the teams suck royally Like the SEC. 4 measly teams in the tourney 2 years in a row Only 4/5 consistent good SEC teams Bama, LSU, UF, UGA/USC.

...

I see what you are saying but comparing em to the SEC of Basketball isn't really too far off, when you look at it this way.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It could get ugly, but it also might not. Not directed at you bro, but people act as if the ACC is like the SEC in football. Not even effing close. The ACC has sucked for the past 2 years. The Big East blew them out of the water for several years now. The ACC is about as top heavy as you can get. The majority of the teams suck royally. 4 measly teams in the tourney 2 years in a row.

Mighty Carolina sucked this year, BARELY beat Villanova (who we beat) and didn't get as far as teams like Marquette and Louisville, who we beat. Yeah, the #1 team in the nation, athletic as hell, got beat by ND this year. We also beat athletic as hell Kentucky with Noel (very down this year, but still).

So you add Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville to a very down ACC, and we're supposed to be scared by it? We've already dealt with those 3 teams and we've been fine in the Big East. Now we have to play Duke and Carolina and and NC State (say bye to Miami when they lose their 24 year-olds) and several weak programs instead of UConn and Georgetown and quality teams like Marquette and Cinci. I'm not scared at all outside of Duke and NC.

Look at the ACC outside of Duke, NC and Miami this year:

Virginia 11-7 22-11
Florida State 9-9 18-16
Maryland 8-10 24-12
Boston College 7-11 16-17
Georgia Tech 6-12 16-15
Wake Forest 6-12 13-18
Clemson 5-13 13-18
Virginia Tech 4-14 13-19

That doesn't strike fear in me in the regular season. We'll be fine. Tourney time though? Ugh...

I agree and disagree. From how you laid it out, I would agree with your general premise. Where I disagree is that the style of play will work against ND until recruiting fixes that. I can't stop thinking to myself how much more athletic the top teams look. But heck, even FSU would offer some serious match-up problems. ND needs more Auguste's and less Cooley's. Don't get me wrong, Jack did a bunch for our team. But in games against really athletic teams late in the year, I couldn't help but notice that Sherman was more effective on offesne and defense. Players like that are needed in the ACC to replicate success seen in the Big East.

 

[Patulski]

You want to blame Brey...fine. I think he deserves some of the blame. But my blame goes to the administration that doesn't put its main support behind bball. Brey has one hand tied behind his back. This is not new to ND bball, and yet he's the only one since Digger's EARLY days who has been able to win with this situation..

The administration has made it very easy for Brey to make the tournament. 19 of his games this year were home games. 11 of those games were "buy games" designed to give him easy wins. 5 of our other wins were against conference teams (USF, DePaul, Seton Hall, Rutgers) that weren't good enough to make the NIT tournament. In addition, we played 4 other NIT teams, though in fairness Kentucky had an outlier year. Nevertheless, two of those NIT teams beat us. One, Providence, blew us out.

As for facilities: That argument rings hollow when comparing us to the teams that have recently beat us in post season tournament play, like Winthrop, Xavier and Old Dominion. None of those teams have near the advantages Brey has.

 

[irishroo]

It could get ugly, but it also might not. Not directed at you bro, but people act as if the ACC is like the SEC in football. Not even effing close. The ACC has sucked for the past 2 years. The Big East blew them out of the water for several years now. The ACC is about as top heavy as you can get. The majority of the teams suck royally. 4 measly teams in the tourney 2 years in a row.

Mighty Carolina sucked this year, BARELY beat Villanova (who we beat) and didn't get as far as teams like Marquette and Louisville, who we beat. Yeah, the #1 team in the nation, athletic as hell, got beat by ND this year. We also beat athletic as hell Kentucky with Noel (very down this year, but still).

So you add Pitt, Syracuse and Louisville to a very down ACC, and we're supposed to be scared by it? We've already dealt with those 3 teams and we've been fine in the Big East. Now we have to play Duke and Carolina and and NC State (say bye to Miami when they lose their 24 year-olds) and several weak programs instead of UConn and Georgetown and quality teams like Marquette and Cinci. I'm not scared at all outside of Duke and NC.

Look at the ACC outside of Duke, NC and Miami this year:

Virginia 11-7 22-11
Florida State 9-9 18-16
Maryland 8-10 24-12
Boston College 7-11 16-17
Georgia Tech 6-12 16-15
Wake Forest 6-12 13-18
Clemson 5-13 13-18
Virginia Tech 4-14 13-19

That doesn't strike fear in me in the regular season. We'll be fine. Tourney time though? Ugh...

O I wasn't trying to imply anything about the ACC as a whole (although looking at it now - Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Pitt, Louisville...ouch), just UNC in particular. They are consistently if not the fastest team in the country, among the fastest, and Roy Williams only wants them to press the pedal down even harder. I don't even wanna think about what any ND team from the past 5 years would look like trying to guard the run n gun team led by Ty Lawson of a few years back

 

[NDinL.A.]

The administration has made it very easy for Brey to make the tournament. 19 of his games this year were home games. 11 of those games were "buy games" designed to give him easy wins. 5 of our other wins were against conference teams (USF, DePaul, Seton Hall, Rutgers) that weren't good enough to make the NIT tournament. In addition, we played 4 other NIT teams, though in fairness Kentucky had an outlier year. Nevertheless, two of those NIT teams beat us. One, Providence, blew us out.

As for facilities: That argument rings hollow when comparing us to the teams that have recently beat us in post season tournament play, like Winthrop, Xavier and Old Dominion. None of those teams have near the advantages Brey has.

And they play in soft leagues that don't beat them up, where most of those teams wouldn't sniff the tourney if they had to play ND's BE schedule. There is no denying that Brey does a helluva job regular season (and NEEDS to do better post-season).

I'm not arguing that Brey sucks in the tourney. He does and it sucks as a fan. However, the fans that think ND can attract a long-term stud coach as ND is currently situated are delusion IMHO. A soft schedule does not overcome everything I mentioned above; the admin needs to do more. I defy you to name a great coach that would take this job and look at this job as more than a 2 year job that will launch him to a better gig.

You can't. And that's because ND is not a bball school, and won't be until the admin makes a real commitment to it...

 

[Pachuco]

And they play in soft leagues that don't beat them up, where most of those teams wouldn't sniff the tourney if they had to play ND's BE schedule. There is no denying that Brey does a helluva job regular season (and NEEDS to do better post-season).

I'm not arguing that Brey sucks in the tourney. He does and it sucks as a fan. However, the fans that think ND can attract a long-term stud coach as ND is currently situated are delusion IMHO. A soft schedule does not overcome everything I mentioned above; the admin needs to do more. I defy you to name a great coach that would take this job and look at this job as more than a 2 year job that will launch him to a better gig.

You can't. And that's because ND is not a bball school, and won't be until the admin makes a real commitment to it...

^ THIS & THAT

 

[Buster Bluth]

I think the ACC will become the best conference in basketball next season. Notre Dame is coming in with most of the best of the Big East (Louisville later), it's going to be tough.

Duke, North Carolina, Syracuse, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Notre Dame....that's pretty damn tough. NDinLA is right though, it's a top heavy conference and Notre Dame will be fine. I think it's going to be tougher for Duke and North Carolina to cope with the new boys on the block than the other way around. Big East teams are used to having to play king of the hill, they aren't to such an extent.

 

[IrishMoore1]

So um... where's ND at?

 

[BeauBenken]

So um... where's ND at?

Not choking.

 

[NDinL.A.]

So um... where's ND at?

Their best player got suspended = season over.

Brey definitely did NOT do a good job this year, but the Irish basketball program has a systemic problem that will not be fixed by the firing of Mike Brey. He's actually done really well (other than the tourney, which obviously is huge) considering how little our admin supports basketball.

I'm not adverse to firing Brey as long as we put real $$$ and real support into the program. If not, all you are doing is putting a band-aid over a gunshot...

 

[phillyirish]

Well Villanova choked in the 2nd round as a #2 seed for the 2nd time in four years. So we arent the only ones. Although they made a final four a few years back so its not nearly the same.

 

[KPENN]

Not choking.

Cause sitting at home being an afterthought is so much better?

 

[Buster Bluth]

Their best player got suspended = season over.

Brey definitely did NOT do a good job this year, but the Irish basketball program has a systemic problem that will not be fixed by the firing of Mike Brey. He's actually done really well (other than the tourney, which obviously is huge) considering how little our admin supports basketball.

I'm not adverse to firing Brey as long as we put real $$$ and real support into the program. If not, all you are doing is putting a band-aid over a gunshot...

Why is that the case?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

All Indiana teams should get a pass for this cursed season.

 

[WestCoast]

Not choking.

Brey taught them how to suck.

 

[Irish#1]

Their best player got suspended = season over.

Brey definitely did NOT do a good job this year, but the Irish basketball program has a systemic problem that will not be fixed by the firing of Mike Brey. He's actually done really well (other than the tourney, which obviously is huge) considering how little our admin supports basketball.

I'm not adverse to firing Brey as long as we put real $$$ and real support into the program. If not, all you are doing is putting a band-aid over a gunshot...

Part of the HC's job is to show the admin what he needs and then convince them to support him. Similar to a manager showing upper management why he needs "X" dollars in the budget.

Overall Brey has done a better than average job, but I think he's showing signs that he's on the downside.

 

[irishfan]

I've posted this before, but where would you guys honestly rank the ND job in the ACC for basketball? After the money that Va Tech threw at Buzz and the fact that they have 0 recruiting restrictions, I'm pretty much ready to rank us as the 14th most desirable job in the 15 team conference.

Blue Bloods
-- Duke, UNC, Cuse, Louisville
Pretty much everyone else who has more admin support/0 recruiting restrictions
-- Pitt, UVA, NC State, Wake, Ga Tech, Clemson, FSU, Miami
The stragglers
-- ND, BC, VA Tech

I understand the "Fire Brey" crowd, I just don't think we're going to get a great coach to come here. We've made the tourney 4 of the last 5 years, every time as a solid seed. Unfortunately, I'm content with that and just think it would be worse without Brey.

 

[gkIrish]

I've posted this before, but where would you guys honestly rank the ND job in the ACC for basketball? After the money that Va Tech threw at Buzz and the fact that they have 0 recruiting restrictions, I'm pretty much ready to rank us as the 14th most desirable job in the 15 team conference.

Blue Bloods
-- Duke, UNC, Cuse, Louisville
Pretty much everyone else who has more admin support/0 recruiting restrictions
-- Pitt, UVA, NC State, Wake, Ga Tech, Clemson, FSU, Miami
The stragglers
-- ND, BC, VA Tech

I understand the "Fire Brey" crowd, I just don't think we're going to get a great coach to come here. We've made the tourney 4 of the last 5 years, every time as a solid seed. Unfortunately, I'm content with that and just think it would be worse without Brey.

We aren't going to get a "name" coach to come here. That's why I've been suggesting we go for a successful mid-major guy. Really want Tommy Amaker at this point.

Look, we will never know if we can do better than Brey unless we actually fire him and see what happens. Is Brey just going to coach here until he wants to leave? That's a recipe for disaster unless you are Coach K, Bill Self, etc... If your coach has no fear of being fired, they will act like it.

And Apparently my 4,000th post got deleted so here it is again:

FUCK scUM

FUCK U$C

FUCK Ohio St.

Fire Brey.

 

[irishfan]

We aren't going to get a "name" coach to come here. That's why I've been suggesting we go for a successful mid-major guy. Really want Tommy Amaker at this point.

Look, we will never know if we can do better than Brey unless we actually fire him and see what happens. Is Brey just going to coach here until he wants to leave? That's a recipe for disaster unless you are Coach K, Bill Self, etc... If your coach has no fear of being fired, they will act like it.

BC supposedly is going to make a run at Amaker, although I agree I'd take him over Brey for sure.

I dunno, I see both sides to the Fire Brey argument, and will probably be leaning towards getting rid of him if we don't win a game in the tourney next year.


I'm just anticipating a disaster scenario where we fire Brey, the new guy is no better, we want to fire him within 3-5 years, and suddenly we're the football school that not only has average basketball and little admin support, but also gives their coach a short leash.