Why does ND always choke in the Tournament?

[FLDomer]

Those wanting Brey gone would fire Few from Gonzaga too. Few took Zaga to new heights, yet has early round exits every year. Brey has ND consistently in the tournament. That's the kind of program ND has. If it makes a Sweet 16 with 5+ tournaments every decade, the coach should keep his job.

Few and Gonzaga are overrated year in and yr out. They play NO ONE during the yr and get way to much hype.

 

[BGIF]

Those wanting Brey gone would fire Few from Gonzaga too. Few took Zaga to new heights, yet has early round exits every year. Brey has ND consistently in the tournament. That's the kind of program ND has. If it makes a Sweet 16 with 5+ tournaments every decade, the coach should keep his job.

Every 5+ tournaments? He's one for 13 seasons at ND. He's only made the Sweet 16 in NIT's one out of three.

BTW, UCLA's Ben Howland is a pink slip candidate. He's won at a .685 clip a little better than Brey's .670 (wiki ND record). Howland reached a higher level conference and tournamentwise then fell from there. Brey's never reached that level.

It's a matter of expectations. UCLA fans expect Wooden results but without paid players. ND fans expect student athletes that play 3-4 years and want Sweet 16's. ND doesn't take one and done athletes but they are a one and done program.

 

[FrankMA]

I think there are examples of schools which take good student athletes who do well in the tournament many times. (Duke, Stanford) I think the key is going farther in the tournament which would result in more publicity and better recruiting. Brey's teams don't do that so it hinders recruiting the top players. You would like to go a little farther than the first round once in a while for that purpose. It is kind of like the football team. They played in the championship game and lost badly; however, it will still be a big boost to recruiting.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I think there are examples of schools which take good student athletes who do well in the tournament many times. (Duke, Stanford) I think the key is going farther in the tournament which would result in more publicity and better recruiting. Brey's teams don't do that so it hinders recruiting the top players. You would like to go a little farther than the first round once in a while for that purpose. It is kind of like the football team. They played in the championship game and lost badly; however, it will still be a big boost to recruiting.

Using the student-athlete excuse would be even dumber in basketball than football. IU has 2 Academic All-Americans and Butler has had at least 1 for the last 7 years.

 

[FrankMA]

Using the student-athlete excuse would be even dumber in basketball than football. IU has 2 Academic All-Americans and Butler has had at least 1 for the last 7 years.

I agree that it is not an excuse, but some people do use it as such. In my mind, the biggest hindrance to recruiting is not being perceived as a good basketball school. A few trips deeper in the tournament would fix that. That is not happening with Brey.
It looks like UCLA may fire its coach because he got no further than the first round of the tournament since 2009. ND should expect the same if it wants to get better recruits.

 

[Irishnuke]

Those wanting Brey gone would fire Few from Gonzaga too. Few took Zaga to new heights, yet has early round exits every year. Brey has ND consistently in the tournament. That's the kind of program ND has. If it makes a Sweet 16 with 5+ tournaments every decade, the coach should keep his job.

One sweet 16 in a decade isn't good and should not give a coach a free pass. I also don't get the comparison to Gonzaga's coach. Gonzaga isn't Notre f'n Dame. Neither is VCU, Butler, or anywhere else. There's no reason ND shouldn't be a consistent sweet 16 team.

 

[koonja]

One sweet 16 in a decade isn't good and should not give a coach a free pass. I also don't get the comparison to Gonzaga's coach. Gonzaga isn't Notre f'n Dame. Neither is VCU, Butler, or anywhere else. There's no reason ND shouldn't be a consistent sweet 16 team.

+1.

 

[Buster Bluth]

hahaha are you joking? I don't give a damn where they were supposed to finish. They were a top 25 team, and in case you forgot, they were losing to Xavier quite spectacularly so the ref thing doesn't even matter (bull$hit call, but besides the point - they should not have been losing)

If you're going to punish Brey for the team collapsing against Xavier, but not give the staff credit for turning Cooley into an All-Big East played (instead of the unathletic blob he was his first two seasons) or for the remarkable turnaround mid-season, then I don't know what to tell. That's simply being disingenuous.

 

[DillonHall]

I think there are examples of schools which take good student athletes who do well in the tournament many times. (Duke, Stanford) I think the key is going farther in the tournament which would result in more publicity and better recruiting. Brey's teams don't do that so it hinders recruiting the top players. You would like to go a little farther than the first round once in a while for that purpose. It is kind of like the football team. They played in the championship game and lost badly; however, it will still be a big boost to recruiting.

I can't remember the last time Stanford even made the tournament??

 

[BeauBenken]

Mike Brey is 5-5 as the better seed, including 2-5 since 2007. That's completely pathetic. Those are games he should win every time.

...well in a perfect world the better seed always wins, right?

The tournament is tough, and we just get outplayed. Brey is a good coach for this program though.

In tournament play we have been going down hill since '07, but everywhere else we're improving.

 

[FrankMA]

I can't remember the last time Stanford even made the tournament??

Last appeared in the sweet 16 2008. Elite 8 in 2001.

 

[MJ12666]

Last appeared in the sweet 16 2008. Elite 8 in 2001.

2008 was also the last year that they made tournament.

 

[FrankMA]

2008 was also the last year that they made tournament.

Yes it was-they were in around 9 in a row before then. They must have changed coaches. ND needs a new coach now and I guess so do they. Mike Brey should be coaching them.

 

[tadman95]

Brey is a pretty good coach though he needs to figure out the NCAA Tournament. There was a discussion a couple of pages back about talent vs. coaching. I'm on the side that you have to have the talent to compete for championships. You don't see many teams win w/o it. Anybody think Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, etc are consistently there because of just coaching?

A great coach may take a Butler or VCU up a level ot two, make it to the finals every now and then but they aren't the upper echelon.

Brey needs players. I am hoping the ACC move will help him pull players from areas that historically would not have been very likely. He needs more quality depth. I think he deserves a couple of years in the ACC and see how he does.

He's getting in the tournament which is better than a lot of schools. Just needs to pick up the tournament game.

 

[IrishinSyria]

The fact that this thread exists is proof to me why Brey should not be fired. He's created sky high expectations for, and fans who care about, Notre Dame Mens Basketball. That's a minor miracle in itself.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

The fact that this thread exists is proof to me why Brey should not be fired. He's created sky high expectations for, and fans who care about, Notre Dame Mens Basketball. That's a minor miracle in itself.

I'm tired of this.

Digger had pretty much the same record as Brey, but has a FF, EE, and a one time #1 ranked team. We had expectations long before Brey. Macleod was awful, but why do people act like Brey took this program to new heights?

 

[Kanye West]

Going to the ACC is huge for ND in the tourney IMO. ND gets to play a more ACC style game which will be beneficial in the tourney. If Brey continues to recruit like he is in 2013 watchout for ND in the future. The thing is the Big East style is not very well suited and can be credited for many teams in that conference being upset in the first round when they get into foul trouble or cannot handle the skill of other conferences. The Big East physical style of play does not work in the tourney.

 

[FLDomer]

Going to the ACC is huge for ND in the tourney IMO. ND gets to play a more ACC style game which will be beneficial in the tourney. If Brey continues to recruit like he is in 2013 watchout for ND in the future. The thing is the Big East style is not very well suited and can be credited for many teams in that conference being upset in the first round when they get into foul trouble or cannot handle the skill of other conferences. The Big East physical style of play does not work in the tourney.

I would expect that the move to the ACC will prevent ND from making the tourney as often unless Brey can all of the sudden become a better recruiter, but even if that does happen it will be rough for a couple yrs. With a move to the ACC ND will be playing more athletic teams and will suffer more defeats IMO.

 

[Kanye West]

I would expect that the move to the ACC will prevent ND from making the tourney as often unless Brey can all of the sudden become a better recruiter, but even if that does happen it will be rough for a couple yrs. With a move to the ACC ND will be playing more athletic teams and will suffer more defeats IMO.

ND has been recruiting better over the last couple of years so hopefully that will continue. But you are right Brey needs more athleticsm to handle the ACC to get into the tourney.

 

[Patulski]

Brey is the reason ND makes the tournament consistently. He's a great coach. His teams don't do better in March because the team's athleticism is low. They get away with being collectively unathletic in the BE because BE allows a rougher, banging style of play. This helps eliminate ND's athletic deficiencies..

Have you been watching the tournament? The tournament is being refereed looser than any ND game I watched this season from my Purcell Pavilion seats. They are banging the $hit out of each other and the referees are letting it happen. It's as if the NCAA said, "We're a football country. So, let's make basketball more like football". All the finesse is gone out of the game. It's like a scrum out on the court.

 

[Patulski]

The fact that this thread exists is proof to me why Brey should not be fired. He's created sky high expectations for, and fans who care about, Notre Dame Mens Basketball. That's a minor miracle in itself.

Notre Dame has high expectations about everything.

We got blown out in the first round and looked as soft as a Charlie Weis team. That's why this thread exists.

I think the reverse has happened. The Student Body, the South Bend public and many alumni now see that Brey is taking us nowhere. His support is dwindling. The strange element of this is that Brey got a 10 year extension last year. I hope that his contract has performance clauses that will allow us to fire him and not take a significant hit financially.

 

[gkautz10]

This thread is like debating politics. There are supporters of both sides who will not see the other way. Brey is a great regular season coach, nobody here can argue that. Brey is a terrible tournament coach, I don't see how anyone can argue against that. Yes he gets us to the tournament, BUT WE NEVER WIN! I like to put this in perspective with football. For arguments sake, lets say BK gets us into the new 4 team tournament every year, but loses the 1st game every year. Are we going to be saying "he is a great coach, you are expecting him to do too much with the talent he has"? Hell no we aren't we are going to be saying he is a decent coach but can't win when it matters. Before you say that ND basketball can't get the athletes Duke, Kentucky, or a handful of other schools can, we used to say the same thing about the football program, but now that we have a great coach here, he is proving that to be a false assumption. While Brey should not be fired right this second, he would be gone the next time he underachieves in the tournament. If we continue to have mediocrity and do not take a chance with someone else, we will never know if ND can make it to the elite 8 or hell even the sweet 16. For those who say we can't or don't have the talent to win in the tournament, why does Butler or Florida Gulf Coast or Wichita State, or a handful of the BE teams such as Louisville who we beat? You all are making excuses, we have the talent to go deeper in the tournament, Brey fails to prepare the team. He doesn't know how to watch game film and game plan for an unknown team. He can beat the BE teams that he sees every single year, you don't have to game plan for them. Ben Howlund is a proven coach who is now available......

 

[RDU Irish]

Answer: Mike Brey

Consider the following:

SEASON W-L RESULTS

2013
Lost to Iowa State in the first round, 77-58

2012 (0-1)
Lost to Xavier in the first round, 67-63

2011 (1-1)
Defeated Akron in first round, 69-56
Lost to Florida State in second round, 71-57

2010 (0-1)
Lost to Old Dominion in first round, 51-50

2009
Didn't make the tournament

2008 (1-1)
Defeated George Mason in first round, 68-50
Lost to Washington State in second round, 61-41

2007 (0-1)
Lost to Winthrop in first round, 74-64

2006
Didn't make the tournament

2005
Didn't make the tournament

2004
Didn't make the tournament

2003 (2-1)
Defeated Wisconsin-Milwaukee in first round, 70-69
Defeated Illinois in second round, 68-60
Lost to Arizona in regional semifinal, 88-71

2002 (1-1 )
Defeated Charlotte in first round, 82-63
Lost to Duke in second round, 84-77

2001 (1-1)
Defeated Xavier in first round, 83-71
Lost to Mississippi in second round, 59-56

What has Brey done in his 13 year tenure? The above is your answer: Nothing. He needs to go.

This deserves a bump.

6-9 in thirteen years with an amazing amount of times on the wrong side an upset. What makes this year an upset is that ISU won by 19. They brought their A game and we were just happy to be there.

One Sweet Sixteen in nine tries? Are you f-ing kidding me? We have had plenty of teams, including this one, that are fully capable of making a Sweet Sixteen run, yet only one got it done in nine tries. And look at the number of double digit losses? Freaking embarrassing.

Iowa State can hold their heads high in defeat, they gave OSU all they wanted, left it all on the court. When is the last time we could say the same thing at the end of the year? I don't know if it is motivational or preparation but Brey sucks in the Big Dance.

 

[RDU Irish]

And for the record, I am happy with Brey coaching us for the next 10 years. I just hope he can pull his head out of his arse in March at some point.

 

[Pachuco]

I'm tired of this.

Digger had pretty much the same record as Brey, but has a FF, EE, and a one time #1 ranked team. We had expectations long before Brey. Macleod was awful, but why do people act like Brey took this program to new heights?

Generational/direct experience with a program. It's like becoming a Notre Dame football fan sometime during the Davie, Willingham, & Weis eras. (I feel really bad for those people btw, but respect the heck out of them for their loyalty.) Depending on your age or direct engagement level, it's very possible for those other coaches to exist as mythology and/or statues in the minds of some.

 

[IrishSteelhead]

The whole "we will never be Duke" argument is valid and true, but why are so many people content with not even trying to reach that level?

The attitude that being mediocre is acceptable drives me nuts.

 

[Pachuco]

The whole "we will never be Duke" argument is valid and true, but why are so many people content with not even trying to reach that level?

The attitude that being mediocre is acceptable drives me nuts.

I agree to an extent. There is an unsettled acceptance. People aren't happy about mediocrity.

The mentality has sort of become like supporting your high school team. Realistically, you know your set of scrappy players are likely to get stomped when the competition muscles up, so you prepare yourself with a defeatist mentality by shouting "yea, spirit. we've come this far. go team."

Brey is also a likeable guy. He has an enthusiastic attitude, and makes a concerted effort to involve the student body. I like Brey... but sometimes, he comes off a little soft. I watched an interview with him discussing the match up with Iowa St, and while he was trying to convey that ND needed to play a little loose and have fun, I wasn't sold on a feeling of preparedness.

We've witnessed him get his teams to over perform and win some big games. Just not in the tourney. It's a combo of coaching when the spotlight is at it's brightest and the versatility and athleticism of his recruits. Both areas need improvement, but the demand for immediate excellence simply isn't as great as ND football.

 

[gkIrish]

The whole "we will never be Duke" argument is valid and true, but why are so many people content with not even trying to reach that level?

The attitude that being mediocre is acceptable drives me nuts.

+100000000000000

 

[Patulski]

Generational/direct experience with a program. It's like becoming a Notre Dame football fan sometime during the Davie, Willingham, & Weis eras. (I feel really bad for those people btw, but respect the heck out of them for their loyalty.) Depending on your age or direct engagement level, it's very possible for those other coaches to exist as mythology and/or statues in the minds of some.

I was there during the transition from Johnny Dee to Digger and watched them go from being mediocre to becoming a final four team. We were elite there for awhile and there was incredible fan and student support on game days. There is nothing mythological about that. I was also there when we stopped UCLA's 88 game streak, which was a truly mythological game and unquestionably the biggest win in Notre Dame basketball history. It is hard to convey what a power UCLA was back then. There is nothing like their dynasty today.

I do feel sorry for those who have never seen a truly elite Notre Dame basketball team.

 

[BeauBenken]

I just see this as the same situation that Mark Richt is in down in Georgia. (I don't think Richt should be fired.)

I don't think you fire the guy who brought your team out of the hole it was in, who is recruiting pretty well, and still winning plenty of games.

It's not like we aren't headed in a good direction. That's what I don't get with you guys. Have we stopped making the tournament? Have we stopped winning in the Big East? No. So just chill out.