Pope Benedict to Resign

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I heard the Ghana bishop/cardinal was the favorite. That would be interesting.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Wasn't it predicted that the next Pope would be black and be named Peter and the end of the world would be soon after? Just sayin'...

Personally I'm finding the Papacy increasingly annoying. He is simply the current descendent of the Roman Emperor. He certainly isn't infallible, that's the biggest joke ever. Jesus' teachings taught us to not worship political/church leaders, there are about a billion Catholics who see it otherwise. I'm a Catholic (until they tell me I'm not), but some of these traditions are a little too hokey these days.

I also don't understand why people are praying for his health, while simultaneously feeling that he was picked by God. If he dies--HE GOES TO HEAVEN. I'd be trying to die all of the time if I were in his position.

 

[GowerND11]

Wasn't it predicted that the next Pope would be black and be named Peter and the end of the world would be soon after? Just sayin'...

Personally I'm finding the Papacy increasingly annoying. He is simply the current descendent of the Roman Emperor. He certainly isn't infallible, that's the biggest joke ever. Jesus' teachings taught us to not worship political/church leaders, there are about a billion Catholics who see it otherwise. I'm a Catholic (until they tell me I'm not), but some of these traditions are a little too hokey these days.

I also don't understand why people are praying for his health, while simultaneously feeling that he was picked by God. If he dies--HE GOES TO HEAVEN. I'd be trying to die all of the time if I were in his position.

I think this is what Emcee may have been getting at earlier was the human part of the Church being a problem. While the actual teachings of the Church may be truths, there have been times in the history of it where men have tarnished it. (Popes having children, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Indulgences, etc)

 

[Rack Em]

Wasn't it predicted that the next Pope would be black and be named Peter and the end of the world would be soon after? Just sayin'...

Personally I'm finding the Papacy increasingly annoying. He is simply the current descendent of the Roman Emperor. He certainly isn't infallible, that's the biggest joke ever. Jesus' teachings taught us to not worship political/church leaders, there are about a billion Catholics who see it otherwise. I'm a Catholic (until they tell me I'm not), but some of these traditions are a little too hokey these days.

I also don't understand why people are praying for his health, while simultaneously feeling that he was picked by God. If he dies--HE GOES TO HEAVEN. I'd be trying to die all of the time if I were in his position.

Check yourself brother. I don't want to start a controversy but that's wrong.

From New Advent (The Catholic Encyclopedia):

The Vatican Council has defined as "a divinely revealed dogma" that "the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra — that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church — is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent" (Densinger no. 1839 — old no. 1680)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Infallibility

 

[A Pac]

Just putting it out there. Pope A Pac.

 

[gkIrish]

I heard the Ghana bishop/cardinal was the favorite. That would be interesting.

Yes sir


Pope Betting from Paddy Power

Ghana--3/1

Canada 7/2

Nigeria 9/2

Dolan (USA)--25/1

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Hopefully there aren't more serious health issues.

Hopefully no underlying scandalous stuff.

What title will he hold in retirement?

I heard he was using a performance-enhancing hat.

 

[FrankMA]

Wasn't it predicted that the next Pope would be black and be named Peter and the end of the world would be soon after? Just sayin'...

Personally I'm finding the Papacy increasingly annoying. He is simply the current descendent of the Roman Emperor. He certainly isn't infallible, that's the biggest joke ever. Jesus' teachings taught us to not worship political/church leaders, there are about a billion Catholics who see it otherwise. I'm a Catholic (until they tell me I'm not), but some of these traditions are a little too hokey these days.

I also don't understand why people are praying for his health, while simultaneously feeling that he was picked by God. If he dies--HE GOES TO HEAVEN. I'd be trying to die all of the time if I were in his position.

There was a prophecy by Saint Malachy that the next Pope would be the last before the destruction of Rome!
Prophecy of the Popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Emcee77]

Since the Galileo Controversy has been offered a couple times as an example of when the Church "got it wrong", here's a brief article regarding the Church's position.

Funny that you posted a link. I probably wouldn't have even mentioned Galileo except that it was fresh in my mind because I read this earlier:

Adam Gopnik: What Galileo Saw : The New Yorker

Obviously that's a slightly different perspective than the view in Whiskey's article -- but not exactly contradictory. It is apparently basically true that Galileo made things worse for himself, but I'm not sure I see the relevance of that in this discussion.

I think this is what Emcee may have been getting at earlier was the human part of the Church being a problem. While the actual teachings of the Church may be truths, there have been times in the history of it where men have tarnished it. (Popes having children, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Indulgences, etc)

Sort of, but not exactly. What you are saying is definitely true, but what I was saying is a little different: the Church may have to reinterpret its teachings from time to time as there are developments in science and social science. Certain scriptural passages, for instance, appeared to confirm that the sun revolves around the Earth. As Whiskey's article pointed out, after Copernicus and Galileo, we know that these passages have to be interpreted not literally but "phenomenologically." It took the Church a while to come around to this point of view. As time goes on, I think we will (must) similarly reinterpret prior Church teachings on other matters. However, I never thought Benedict was open to doing that. That's why I was never really comfortable with him as a pope, although he is a brilliant theologian and was eminently qualified for the post in all other ways.

Also, arguing over the Pope's infallibility is sort of beside any important point. The pope only speaks infallibly when he says he is, and he has only done so, what, seven times in the history of the Church? And always on a core theological matter. It's something that gets more play than it deserves, imo.

 

[palinurus]

Wasn't it predicted that the next Pope would be black and be named Peter and the end of the world would be soon after? Just sayin'...

Personally I'm finding the Papacy increasingly annoying. He is simply the current descendent of the Roman Emperor. He certainly isn't infallible, that's the biggest joke ever. Jesus' teachings taught us to not worship political/church leaders, there are about a billion Catholics who see it otherwise. I'm a Catholic (until they tell me I'm not), but some of these traditions are a little too hokey these days.

I also don't understand why people are praying for his health, while simultaneously feeling that he was picked by God. If he dies--HE GOES TO HEAVEN. I'd be trying to die all of the time if I were in his position.

I think this is what you were looking for:

"Jesus said to him in reply, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' "

 

[palinurus]

Funny that you posted a link. I probably wouldn't have even mentioned Galileo except that it was fresh in my mind because I read this earlier:

Adam Gopnik: What Galileo Saw : The New Yorker

Obviously that's a slightly different perspective than the view in Whiskey's article -- but not exactly contradictory. It is apparently basically true that Galileo made things worse for himself, but I'm not sure I see the relevance of that in this discussion.




Sort of, but not exactly. What you are saying is definitely true, but what I was saying is a little different: the Church may have to reinterpret its teachings from time to time as there are developments in science and social science. Certain scriptural passages, for instance, appeared to confirm that the sun revolves around the Earth. As Whiskey's article pointed out, after Copernicus and Galileo, we know that these passages have to be interpreted not literally but "phenomenologically." It took the Church a while to come around to this point of view. As time goes on, I think we will (must) similarly reinterpret prior Church teachings on other matters. However, I never thought Benedict was open to doing that. That's why I was never really comfortable with him as a pope, although he is a brilliant theologian and was eminently qualified for the post in all other ways.

Also, arguing over the Pope's infallibility is sort of beside any important point. The pope only speaks infallibly when he says he is, and he has only done so, what, seven times in the history of the Church? And always on a core theological matter. It's something that gets more play than it deserves, imo.

I defer to others far more theologically learned than me, but I think it is broader than that. Eg, I think church councils teach infallibly, well as other presentments of the Church's teaching authority. Now, I don't know, but it may be that there are only seven times where the pope said, "Hey, listen, I telling you infallibly this: _______." But there are more than just seven things that are infallibly taught. Again, I would welcome correction.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Here's a short article on the doctrine of Infallibility.

What infallibility does do is prevent a pope from solemnly and formally teaching as "truth" something that is, in fact, error.

Put another way, it simply prevents the Church from falling into heresy.

Some ask how popes can be infallible if some of them lived scandalously. This objection of course, illustrates the common confusion between infallibility and impeccability. There is no guarantee that popes won’t sin or give bad example. (The truly remarkable thing is the great degree of sanctity found in the papacy throughout history; the "bad popes" stand out precisely because they are so rare.)

Other people wonder how infallibility could exist if some popes disagreed with others. This, too, shows an inaccurate understanding of infallibility, which applies only to solemn, official teachings on faith and morals, not to disciplinary decisions or even to unofficial comments on faith and morals. A pope’s private theological opinions are not infallible, only what he solemnly defines is considered to be infallible teaching.

Emcee77 is correct in that this happens very rarely, so this doctrine tends to receive much more attention than it's due.

 

[fortwayne_nd]

Wasn't it predicted that the next Pope would be black and be named Peter and the end of the world would be soon after? Just sayin'....

Black and "Johnson"

The end of the world? Again? I'm stopping by the grocery store and picking up some ice cream, just in case.

 

[greyhammer90]

Black and "Johnson"

The end of the world? Again? I'm stopping by the grocery store and picking up some ice cream, just in case.

I plan on taking some to St. Peter. Bring some Chunky monkey and a spoon and I'm in.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Here's a short article on the doctrine of Infallibility.

Put another way, it simply prevents the Church from falling into heresy.

Emcee77 is correct in that this happens very rarely, so this doctrine tends to receive much more attention than it's due.

Honestly this made me shake my head even more:

"Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25)

I think my biggest gripe with the Church is that I don't think Jesus would be too proud of this, and I'll even say that I think it goes directly against his teachings:

I mean come on the man was a poor carpenter who espoused a lifestyle completely against grandiose material possessions, and the head of "His Church" lives in that...

Am I the only who who scratches their head at that?

 

[Rack Em]

Honestly this made me shake my head even more:



I think my biggest gripe with the Church is that I don't think Jesus would be too proud of this, and I'll even say that I think it goes directly against his teachings:

I mean come on the man was a poor carpenter who espoused a lifestyle completely against grandiose material possessions, and the head of "His Church" lives in that...

Am I the only who who scratches their head at that?

No you're not the only one. It's an easy criticism of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the largest charitable organization in the world. You've taken St. Peter's Basilica, the home of the Church, and pointed to it. It is the center of Catholicism in the world. Is Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām is Mecca also wrong? It's awfully large - but it's the center of Islam.

Here's the basic idea behind ornate churches (which on the macro level is very few). Catholics believe that their Churches are a House of God. God dwells in them, specifically in the Tabernacle which contains the body of Christ. Therefore it is important to have churches that are "fit" to house God. Churches are places of prayer and reverence and their decoration reflects that.

Yes, Jesus was a poor carpenter that espoused taking care of the poor and giving your money to them. But wouldn't he be honored to have such a special place to live? It's not like the Catholic Church is building and renovating churches and telling the poor to work harder.

 

[greyhammer90]

No you're not the only one. It's an easy criticism of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, the largest charitable organization in the world. You've taken St. Peter's Basilica, the home of the Church, and pointed to it. It is the center of Catholicism in the world. Is Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām is Mecca also wrong? It's awfully large - but it's the center of Islam.

Here's the basic idea behind ornate churches (which on the macro level is very few). Catholics believe that their Churches are a House of God. God dwells in them, specifically in the Tabernacle which contains the body of Christ. Therefore it is important to have churches that are "fit" to house God. Churches are places of prayer and reverence and their decoration reflects that.

Yes, Jesus was a poor carpenter that espoused taking care of the poor and giving your money to them. But wouldn't he be honored to have such a special place to live? It's not like the Catholic Church is building and renovating churches and telling the poor to work harder.

...anymore. I keed, I keed.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Here's the basic idea behind ornate churches (which on the macro level is very few). Catholics believe that their Churches are a House of God. God dwells in them, specifically in the Tabernacle which contains the body of Christ. Therefore it is important to have churches that are "fit" to house God. Churches are places of prayer and reverence and their decoration reflects that.

Yes, Jesus was a poor carpenter that espoused taking care of the poor and giving your money to them. But wouldn't he be honored to have such a special place to live? It's not like the Catholic Church is building and renovating churches and telling the poor to work harder.

Well I won't shy away from an opportunity to criticize Islam either haha

I really appreciate the explanation though, seriously. It's good to be well informed either way. I think I disagree with it entirely though. haha I think that the Jesus I read about would want all of us to use our wherewithal to house the poor, not himself. I've never read anything from Jesus that would make me think otherwise.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Honestly this made me shake my head even more:

Why does that make you shake your head? The doctrine of Infallibility doesn't apply to individual bishops. It does apply to them as a group, whether by intentionally (ecumenical council) or coincidentally unanimous proclamation.

Think of it this way: the doctrine applies to the Church. If a constitutional doctrine applies to the Federal government, it may affect the President's actions individually (since he's the singular head of an entire branch of government) and Congress as a whole (as a separate but co-equal branch), yet not individual to Congressmen.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I sorta got the same feeling when I went to a Christian (yuck..) church around four years ago, tagging along with some babe I was talking to. (Awesome motives, huh?) But I couldn't get over the size of this absolutely gorgeous atrium with a massive grand piano and the the bottom of the steps, and the event was basically a Christian Rock concert (double yuck) and I walked down the hall passed the sound room and there was easily $200,000 worth of electronics in there. I know because I'm in a band myself. All of the while a few hundreds 18-23 year olds are going bonkers for Jesus in the amphitheater.

I don't know, I had a real problem with that sight and then going to a planning meeting the next day and people of the same ilk were the there proclaiming how much they didn't want public transportation lines in their community because of all of the "homeless people who will be in their community!" haha Jesus would cry.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Why does that make you shake your head? The doctrine of Infallibility doesn't apply to individual bishops. It does apply to them as a group, whether by intentionally (ecumenical council) or coincidentally unanimous proclamation.

Think of it this way: the doctrine applies to the Church. If a constitutional doctrine applies to the Federal government, it may affect the President's actions individually (since he's the singular head of an entire branch of government) and Congress as a whole (as a separate but co-equal branch), yet not individual to Congressmen.

^This. They're sort of like the Supreme Court saying what Constitutional Law is, to give a secular counter-example.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

I sorta got the same feeling when I went to a Christian (yuck..) church around four years ago, tagging along with some babe I was talking to. (Awesome motives, huh?) But I couldn't get over the size of this absolutely gorgeous atrium with a massive grand piano and the the bottom of the steps, and the event was basically a Christian Rock concert (double yuck) and I walked down the hall passed the sound room and there was easily $200,000 worth of electronics in there. I know because I'm in a band myself. All of the while a few hundreds 18-23 year olds are going bonkers for Jesus in the amphitheater.

I don't know, I had a real problem with that sight and then going to a planning meeting the next day and people of the same ilk were the there proclaiming how much they didn't want public transportation lines in their community because of all of the "homeless people who will be in their community!" haha Jesus would cry.

Were you charged money for admission? The money changer parable you're probably thinking of involved charging money for people to cleanse their sins.

If, by contrast, someone just happened to give to a church a bunch of expensive equipment, who cares?

 

[Buster Bluth]

Why does that make you shake your head? The doctrine of Infallibility doesn't apply to individual bishops. It does apply to them as a group, whether by intentionally (ecumenical council) or coincidentally unanimous proclamation.

Think of it this way: the doctrine applies to the Church. Similarly, if a constitutional doctrine applies to the Federal government, it may affect the President's actions individually (since he's the singular head of an entire branch of government) and Congress as a whole (as a separate but co-equal branch), yet not individual Congressmen.

Simply because that leaves a lot of wiggle room for disowning people and changing policies. How does Vatican II play into it all?

The Church has been wrong too, because they are only people. I appreciate the Catholic Church's stance on the literal interpretation of the Bible, but their traditions and laws haven't been perfect from the first moment. I think that much is fair to say.

 

[Buster Bluth]

If, by contrast, someone just happened to give to a church a bunch of expensive equipment, who cares?

 

[Rack Em]

Well I won't shy away from an opportunity to criticize Islam either haha

I really appreciate the explanation though, seriously. It's good to be well informed either way. I think I disagree with it entirely though. haha I think that the Jesus I read about would want all of us to use our wherewithal to house the poor, not himself. I've never read anything from Jesus that would make me think otherwise.

No problem.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Simply because that leaves a lot of wiggle room for disowning people and changing policies. How does Vatican II play into it all?

The Church has been wrong too, because they are only people. I appreciate the Catholic Church's stance on the literal interpretation of the Bible, but their traditions and laws haven't been perfect from the first moment. I think that much is fair to say.

The point is that the doctrine of Infallibility applies very infrequently. So infrequently, in fact, that you wouldn't be able to find an applicable situation in which the Church has contradicted itself or been proven wrong.

But to reiterate Emcee77's earlier point, the practical significance of this doctrine is commonly overstated. It flows from the Church's understanding of its own founding, its purpose, etc. that the Holy Spirit won't allow it to fall into heresy (which, again, can be difficult to define).

This is 300-level Catholic theology here, so there's little point in continuing to argue unless we're going to start linking to scholarly sources.

 

[Rack Em]

The point is that the doctrine of Infallibility applies very infrequently. So infrequently, in fact, that you wouldn't be able to find an applicable situation in which the Church has contradicted itself or been proven wrong.

But to reiterate Emcee77's earlier point, the practical significance of this doctrine is commonly overstated. It flows from the Church's understanding of its own founding, its purpose, etc. that the Holy Spirit won't allow it to fall into heresy (which, again, can be difficult to define).

This is 300-level Catholic theology here, so there's little point in continuing to argue unless we're going to start linking to scholarly sources.

What? You can't do it?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

What? You can't do it?

Contrary to popular belief, I don't relish being "that guy".

 

[PerthDomer]

Anointing of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Remember this? Jesus didn't hold that all money ever made should go to the poor. There are some things that can be done (ie anoint jesus with super expensive perfume, build a grand church) without making us bad people.

 

[ickythump1225]

Right, I agree. Pope Benedict is a formidable theologian, no question about that, but I always felt that while he led the Church, the world was passing us by. I'm excited to see who the next pope will be.

As a non-religious person I'm not going to participate very heavily in this thread, I'm a former Catholic but I'm currently an atheist. I will make this one comment though, as I have seen the bold comment here and other places, the comment about "the world is passing us by." Of course it is, that's the nature of religion. The world always passes religion by and religion eventually has to play catch up. I won't press the issue though because I understand ND is a Catholic school and I'm sure the majority here are Catholic/religious.