The Hit To The Head.

[Jason Pham]

For what??? Funny name calling and insulting a members intelligence is ok??? what planet do you guys live on.... Eventually you push a persons buttons long enough he goes off... Wooly just shouldn't comment when i post anymore... Like mama taught me "If you ain't got nothing nice to say don't say nothing" glad i didn't listen....

Fortunately for wooly, you won't be posting for a little while. Enjoy your time off and chew on your mother's advice a bit.

 

[arrowryan]

Sorry for even bringing up the topic. I didn't mean to for it to end up like this, was just looking for a good late night debate.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Buster Bluth]

Back to the topic...

I've been jotting down with my roommates "1,001 Reasons Why The NFL Sucks" for the last two months or so (were at like ~350 haha) and we all came to the conclusion that the players are just so good--too good--that the game has changed.

Consider that a DE (or even DTs) in the NFL is about as fast as the RB. In high school does that happen? It's uncommon at big schools. Does it happen in college? Again, very uncommon. What about in the NFL? It's the norm. NFL DE's are so big and massive and fast that they've basically eliminated the option element of the NFL.

The same is true for all positions. There are only 32 teams, literally every player is, well, pretty outstanding at the game. The sheer amount of studs and elite talent is mind-blowing. There are 50% more people in the US now that in 1970. So if there were 50 NFL-caliber RBs then, there are 75 now. If there were ~10 stud QBs then, half the league has an "elite" QB now. And that's if every other variable stayed the same. But due to all of our diets and whatnot...we're bigger than ever before...and due to all of the revolutionary training...we're stronger and faster too. So there are 50% more players, plus everyone is better than ever before. There are probably (and I'm maybe this up right now) 5x as many good players as in 1970.

Basically, the unthinkable amount of talent warps the game into something inferior. It'd be like the NBA if goal-tending were legal. There are simply too many guys who are too fast and too big. An elite safety used to be able to shut down half the field. Now every team has a bone-crushing safety who can absolutely murder people out there. A lot of it is simple physics, no? A bigger car traveling more quickly than a smaller car traveling more slowly will create a bigger impact...and if that impact is above X you're seriously damaging brains...am I wrong there?

Yes, those huge freak athletes have always existed. Shutdown safeties who can cover half of the field have always existed. But now there are soooo many that they have become unavoidable. You can't "run away" from a stud DE like you can in high school, because the other guy is a monster too. You can throw away from one safety, the other guy is tremendous too.

 

[JadeBrecks]

A LOT of the hits in decades past would get flagged now and result in suspensions, yet not nearly as many players from decades ago ended up with longterm brain trauma, even though helmets are much better now and the rules are more restrictive. Part of the problem is the athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger now than they were then, and the forces they generate with hits are much greater. Getting hit in 1960 by a 210 lb linebacker who ran a 4.9 isn't the same as getting hit today by one who runs a 4.5 and weighs 250. It's like a Prius at 60 versus a semi at 90.

If you ask me the biggest difference between now and then is defensive players didn't make all their his/tackles letting with their helmets. A lot of defenses don't pay defense they just hit you as hard as possible once you get the ball and hope that stops you..

 

[dshans]

You're welcome.... And i've been called worse by better men... Your point is?

I'd say that it was damn clear ... and accurate.

 

[BGIF]

I can't believe it's Christmas Eve and we're dealing with something like this. Making fun of a person who is handicapped??? Seriously? NYMIKE will be back, but he got a short vacation to cool himself off. Way over the line with his comments though.

Let's remember the spirit of the season, and hell, we're #1 in the nation yo! Merry Christmas...

Fortunately for wooly, you won't be posting for a little while. Enjoy your time off and chew on your mother's advice a bit.

Bravo!

 

[GowerND11]

I will have to side with Woolyin this main argument. Helmet to helmet hits need to be punishable and mad illegal in the hopes they are eliminated, or at lease greatly reduced. However, these hits on a defenseless reciever penelties are overboard. they are allowing too much freedom for the reciever to catch the ball without allowing the defensive player have the chance to dislodge the ball.

 

[dshans]

A point or two.

1) NYMIKE6, you are a ****ing arsehole in this little tête à tête.

2) Sadly the equipment developed over the years to make the game of American football "safer" has perversely made it in some ways less safe. The gladiator-like armor and padding has tended to promote escalated destructive behavior. A head-to-head blow would be avoided in the absence of helmets.

Rugby is a grueling, violent and competitive sport that is one of the progenitors of football as we know it. There are no helmets or shoulder pads. How often do you see one player driving into another head to head?

In a perverse twist, efforts to protect players in American football through helmets, shoulder pads, etc. has evolved into a weapon in a blood-lust atmosphere.

There is no doubt that football, rugby and lacrosse can be brutal and bruising. Protective gear is prudent. However, creating and promoting a false sense of invulnerability is not.

A good play is one thing; a potentially damaging play is quite another. Hence the rules.

 

[CraigKrenzel]

A point or two...

Hear, hear. And Merry Christmas all!

 

[IrishRugger2013]

A point or two.

1) NYMIKE6, you are a ****ing arsehole in this little tête à tête.

2) Sadly the equipment developed over the years to make the game of American football "safer" has perversely made it in some ways less safe. The gladiator-like armor and padding has tended to promote escalated destructive behavior. A head-to-head blow would be avoided in the absence of helmets.

Rugby is a grueling, violent and competitive sport that is one of the progenitors of football as we know it. There are no helmets or shoulder pads. How often do you see one player driving into another head to head?

In a perverse twist, efforts to protect players in American football through helmets, shoulder pads, etc. has evolved into a weapon in a blood-lust atmosphere.

There is no doubt that football, rugby and lacrosse can be brutal and bruising. Protective gear is prudent. However, creating and promoting a false sense of invulnerability is not.

A good play is one thing; a potentially damaging play is quite another. Hence the rules.

Great post. As a rugby player I was going to make the same point. There are far fewer head injuries because the lack of padding forces you to use proper tackling technique. Football padding allows for hits without wrapping up and leading with your helmet. The thing is, it's quite possible to make hard, yet safe, hits in a contact sport.

 

[Bishop2b5]

If you ask me the biggest difference between now and then is defensive players didn't make all their his/tackles letting with their helmets. A lot of defenses don't pay defense they just hit you as hard as possible once you get the ball and hope that stops you..

Very true. Look at some of the footage from NFL games from the 60's and earlier. They tended to hit mostly with their shoulder or even a forearm. I'm always amazed at how poor tackling technique was back in the day. A lot of hitting and arm tackling, but not as much wrapping up. A big back like Jim Brown just ran through that stuff or bounced off and kept going.

Conditioning, technique, and fundamentals were WAY beneath today's standards. Guys had off-season jobs and didn't work out between the end of one season and the beginning of the next one. Up until at least the early 60's, pre-season training camp was for getting back in shape.

 

[Bishop2b5]

2) Sadly the equipment developed over the years to make the game of American football "safer" has perversely made it in some ways less safe. The gladiator-like armor and padding has tended to promote escalated destructive behavior.

Same thing is true for all the protective gear kids wear now when riding bikes. Injury rates didn't go down after such gear became common. The kids just engaged in more dangerous bahavior because they felt invulnerable.

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

NYMIKE.. You really embarrassed yourself tonight. This isn't "ESPN conversations", where it seems you may belong. Redeem yourself or stay gone.

The athlete/game continues to get faster and stronger and the dimensions of the field stay the same. There's obviously no easy fix so I think this area also needs to be up for discussion.

 

[IrishLax]

I was staying out of this thread but now that it has gotten back to be civil I'll add my 2 cents:

1. I think it's really, really important that cheap shots get taken out of the game. Things like what Quinton Dial did to Aaron Murray or when a WR just gets completely blown up... those are 100% avoidable plays and are also devastating hits. This is also a rampant issue in lacrosse and hockey, not just football. Lacrosse and hockey have really similar impact issues to football when it comes to cheap shots:

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Last year against Duke we had two players late hit in the head (Nick Beattie, near season ending injury... Liam O'Connor, less serious)... and then against Virginia in the quarters there was similar dirty play and a very scary moment as shown above on one of those plays. I can't find a good link to a video replay showing the play in detail, but basically Ryan Foley shoots and scores and after the ball is already in the back of the net the Virginia defender comes up and launches a shoulder into the side of his head.

The key difference between hockey/lacrosse and football is that collisions are less frequent and players are less athletically freakish... but the helmet technology is also FAR worse and concussions are a really large issue. The only way you eliminate these plays is by HARSHLY penalizing players during games for cheap shots (IMO including immediate ejection for anything egregious) plus suspension of players for games afterwards. These steps need to be taken at every level... not just pros. Youth, high school, college. Kick kids out of games until they learn the lesson.

2. Then there are hits where it's a "bang bang" sort of play. I've never understood how to deal with this unless you want to teach people to dive at knees. Simply put, if a ball carrier or receiver "ducks" or lowers his shoulder... what are you supposed to do? There is almost no possible way to tackle them without head contact. What about if you try to wrap up and hit someone who is standing straight up (never happens, but is ideal) and lead with your shoulder? Ultimately, when you lead with your shoulder, you're head is also coming with it. So what if you're a 6'3" LB tackling a 5'10" RB? The crown of your helmet would hit them square in the chin/facemask area.

I guess my point is I don't understand how you legislate helmet-to-helmet contact out of the sport short of completely removing helmets... and then you would still have infrequent incidental contact, which would actually be MORE devastating when it does eventually happen. You can protect WRs, you can protect defenseless players, you can eliminate targeting and kill shots... and you can make the game safer.

But I think what the OP was getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that current initiatives which are more tailored to reducing the NFL's exposure than anything else are opening up a giant can of worms when it comes to irregular enforcement, gray areas, and an overall oblique message that leaves people scratching their heads and debating what is legal more than actually affecting positive change.

IMO, the NFL needs to focus on improving helmet technology and eliminating the big cheap shot... and stop screwing around with "minimizing kickoffs," QB-only protection rules with TONS of room for interpretation, etc.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

NYMIKE is the most insufferable person on this board. Glad he's gone for a while.

Anyways, I think it would be great if football players played rugby for a year or at least had rugby-style coaching. When you don't have a weapon strapped to your head your whole mindset changes. People can't lead with their heads unless they want to break their necks, and there's more self-preservation. Bad coaching at the youth level has led to this epidemic. It's not Goodell's fault that players are taking shortcuts with poor tackling form. He's in a no-win situation.

 

[GowerND11]

I was staying out of this thread but now that it has gotten back to be civil I'll add my 2 cents:

1. I think it's really, really important that cheap shots get taken out of the game. Things like what Quinton Dial did to Aaron Murray or when a WR just gets completely blown up... those are 100% avoidable plays and are also devastating hits. This is also a rampant issue in lacrosse and hockey, not just football. Lacrosse and hockey have really similar impact issues to football when it comes to cheap shots:

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Last year against Duke we had two players late hit in the head (Nick Beattie, near season ending injury... Liam O'Connor, less serious)... and then against Virginia in the quarters there was similar dirty play and a very scary moment as shown above on one of those plays. I can't find a good link to a video replay showing the play in detail, but basically Ryan Foley shoots and scores and after the ball is already in the back of the net the Virginia defender comes up and launches a shoulder into the side of his head.

The key difference between hockey/lacrosse and football is that collisions are less frequent and players are less athletically freakish... but the helmet technology is also FAR worse and concussions are a really large issue. The only way you eliminate these plays is by HARSHLY penalizing players during games for cheap shots (IMO including immediate ejection for anything egregious) plus suspension of players for games afterwards. These steps need to be taken at every level... not just pros. Youth, high school, college. Kick kids out of games until they learn the lesson.

2. Then there are hits where it's a "bang bang" sort of play. I've never understood how to deal with this unless you want to teach people to dive at knees. Simply put, if a ball carrier or receiver "ducks" or lowers his shoulder... what are you supposed to do? There is almost no possible way to tackle them without head contact. What about if you try to wrap up and hit someone who is standing straight up (never happens, but is ideal) and lead with your shoulder? Ultimately, when you lead with your shoulder, you're head is also coming with it. So what if you're a 6'3" LB tackling a 5'10" RB? The crown of your helmet would hit them square in the chin/facemask area.

I guess my point is I don't understand how you legislate helmet-to-helmet contact out of the sport short of completely removing helmets... and then you would still have infrequent incidental contact, which would actually be MORE devastating when it does eventually happen. You can protect WRs, you can protect defenseless players, you can eliminate targeting and kill shots... and you can make the game safer.

But I think what the OP was getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that current initiatives which are more tailored to reducing the NFL's exposure than anything else are opening up a giant can of worms when it comes to irregular enforcement, gray areas, and an overall oblique message that leaves people scratching their heads and debating what is legal more than actually affecting positive change.

IMO, the NFL needs to focus on improving helmet technology and eliminating the big cheap shot... and stop screwing around with "minimizing kickoffs," QB-only protection rules with TONS of room for interpretation, etc.

The bolded part is exactly how I feel. We saw it last year in the USC game where Slaughter (I believe) was penalized for a helmet to helmet hit. Replay showed he did not lead with his helmet, rather the reciever ducked his helmet into Slaughter's. There needs to be more done with offensive players as well. They should not be allowed to use their head as a weapon while the defense can't, and if helmets touch the defender gets the penalty.

As you mentioned Lax, yes when you lower your shoulders your head dips too, but when a runner lowers his head revealing the crown of the helmet to the defender he is clearly not just lowering his shoulders and should be the one flagged for the helmet to helmet hit. You can lower your shoulders while keeping your head square.

 

[Rocky2820]

Wow, this thread really took a turn for the worse after I logged off last night. Really sorry to see that, especially for Wooly's sake. Hope you're cool with everything bro - you're loved on this site, NYMIKE aside.

The thing I wanted to comment on/ask about is this: Someone had mentioned how not going for the head doesn't mean you have to go for knees (see James Harrison). I definitely agree with that and disagree with Harrison, despite my affinity for the Steelers. That said, I'm wondering how easy it really is to hit that sweet pot in between. They always say to see what you hit, so that means you should not lower the crown of your helmet even to the side. So, the top of your helmet is 10 or so inches above your shoulders. This means a tackler needs to lower that much, but not go so low that it's a knee shot, and as mentioned some defensive players are taller then the offensive players they're trying to tackle. And it's all happening at a speed I probably can't even comprehend.

Am I off base to think that making this adjustment isn't all that easy of a task? I'm not talking about the head hunting/spearing shots - those need to leave the game NOW. I'm talking about the borderline hits where often times the top of defensive player's helmet hits the bottom of the offensive player's facemask. Not as easy as it seems, even with retraining. Thoughts?

 

[Bishop2b5]

Wow, this thread really took a turn for the worse after I logged off last night.

Yeah, that was completely over the line. I haven't been around here long enough to know if that's normal for him or if he just had a bad night or too much to drink, but that will get you banned on most well-run websites, and deservedly so.

I'm not talking about the head hunting/spearing shots - those need to leave the game NOW. I'm talking about the borderline hits where often times the top of defensive player's helmet hits the bottom of the offensive player's facemask. Not as easy as it seems, even with retraining. Thoughts?

The refs don't seem to have a clear idea of what's illegal and what isn't, and we've seen the rules applied inconsistently. I'm 100% with you on getting rid of intentional headhunting and spearing. A lot of what has been getting called though is just hardnosed football where helmet-to-helmet contact is incidental and unavoidable. Seems the rules are supposed to prevent intentional headhunting and use of the helmet as a weapon, not hard hitting and normal helmet-to-helmet contact.