Manziel's Heisman Campaign

[MPClinton22]

Again due to scheme. Our main thing is taking away the long passes and big plays. Who cares how many yards you give up if you don't let teams into the end zone?

And as was stated above, playing FCS teams certainly helps Alabama bolster their defensive stats.

 

[ickythump1225]

Regarding best defense in the country:
Notre Dame's defensive ranks:
Yards given up: 6th
Yards per play: 6th
Opponent first downs: 16th
Opponent 3rd down convers per game: 23rd
Opponent average time of posession: 12th
Opponent 3rd down convers %: 31st

Now you have the best scoring defense but only because we lit up Alabama for 29.

Alabama's defense is better by the numbers.

Yes while 'Bama was busy stopping the mighty offensive juggernauts of Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, and Western Carolina we were busy holding scrub offenses like Oklahoma and Miami to a collective 16 points. Oh and don't forget about Alabama's other match ups with the video game offenses of Auburn and Ole Miss.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Comparing stats between Te'o and Manziel is pointless.

The Heisman race is down to the two of them. So comparing Te'o to other LBs (Jones) and Manziel to other QBs isn't helping anything.

Te'o has produced a strong body of work over his career, he has a better story, peerless integrity, and he's the best player on the #1 scoring defense/ team in the country.

Manziel is the best QB prospect in contention, but he's a freshman and his team isn't going to accomplish anything significant this season. It took RGIII two 4k+ yard seasons in a row to win the Heisman, and he had a lot of intangibles that are currently favoring Manti.

I'd be surprised if Manziel doesn't win the Heisman at some point in the next 3 years, and he should be in the conversation now, but he hasn't earned it yet.

 

[aubeirish]

Te'o:
-He's a senior.
-Has lead the top defense in the country to an UNDEFEATED season.
-Has overcome incredible adversity.
-He is an "incredible" role model and leader ala Tebow if you will.
-6 interception and over 100 tackles at MLB.
-Again 12-0.
-There is nobody else really.
-His defensive stats are just as impressive as any other offensive players. We overlook defensive stats way too often.

Johnny is spectacular and has a bright future, but he is not undefeated. He is also not the person Manti Te'o is also. He has time to develop into a fantastic player, but I wouldn't give the Heisman this year. The Heisman is about more than just stats. It's the total package.

 

[Irish#1]

Miller, I would say comparibly that Te'o didn't make a single play in any of Notre Dame's 4 OT periods. That seems to be a large period of time in which a Heisman candidate could have made some contribution. I only watched OT in Pitt, I had a conflict but I saw the Stanford OT and he didn't seem to be much a factor in either in OT.

Manti was in on the tackle on the goal line stand against Stanford.

 

[irishpat183]

Regarding best defense in the country:
Notre Dame's defensive ranks:
Yards given up: 6th
Yards per play: 6th
Opponent first downs: 16th
Opponent 3rd down convers per game: 23rd
Opponent average time of posession: 12th
Opponent 3rd down convers %: 31st

Now you have the best scoring defense but only because we lit up Alabama for 29.

Alabama's defense is better by the numbers.

And you're leaving out the most impressive numbers...TD's allowed (9 all year). Rushing TD's (2)...etc.

And before A&M, we still were the top scoring D.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Regarding best defense in the country:
Notre Dame's defensive ranks:
Yards given up: 6th
Yards per play: 6th
Opponent first downs: 16th
Opponent 3rd down convers per game: 23rd
Opponent average time of posession: 12th
Opponent 3rd down convers %: 31st

Now you have the best scoring defense but only because we lit up Alabama for 29.

Alabama's defense is better by the numbers.

Considering your username is supposed to make us believe that you are also a ND fan, you seem to be going to great lengths to show that our defense is not as good as Alabama's.

 

[AGNDfan]

Sorry about the break. Had to work. That'll happen.

As to the point in the scheme as to why Te'o's numbers aren' better.

If that is the case then does Te'o not less important to his defense than Manziel is to his offense? I'm not saying that he is or isn't but it is a thought that will have to come up for voters.

And to everyone who discounts TDs against a non top 25 team then we eliminate all the INTs and big plays against good but unranked teams for Te'o?

Should Te'os numbers come down to 33 tackles 1 int 1 sack against Okla, Mich St and Stanford vs. Manziels 891 yds 3 tds and 65.1 % completion against Florida, LSU and Alabama.

In fact if you take all of Manziel's games against ranked competition this year his stats are:

1408 yds passing
489 yds rushing
11 total tds
4 ints
and 67.4 % completion rate
and that's 379.4 yards per game against top 25 teams. You can point to Florida or LSU but if you take in his whole body of work, he stands up to at least the top 2 in the competition.

 

[connor_in]

In fact if you take all of Manziel's games against ranked competition this year his stats are:

.

TWO LOSSES

 

[IrishLax]

Here's the bottom line... if Manziel played LSU and Florida RIGHT NOW instead of earlier in the year he wouldn't be tops in the race. They'd say "Alabama was good but look what he did against the other teams after." Even one loss post Alabama would knock him out.

If you just look at pure stats then Klein is still == Manziel.

If you look at things holistically, Manti is definitely worth considering for #1.

Manziel only leads because of the "hot QB on hot team" mantra that the Heisman has become. He is not even close to the best player in CFB... much less best player on best team.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

TWO LOSES

Prophetic statement regarding the title game? Bad for 'Bama.

 

[irishpat183]

Sorry about the break. Had to work. That'll happen.

As to the point in the scheme as to why Te'o's numbers aren' better.

If that is the case then does Te'o not less important to his defense than Manziel is to his offense? I'm not saying that he is or isn't but it is a thought that will have to come up for voters.

And to everyone who discounts TDs against a non top 25 team then we eliminate all the INTs and big plays against good but unranked teams for Te'o?

Should Te'os numbers come down to 33 tackles 1 int 1 sack against Okla, Mich St and Stanford vs. Manziels 891 yds 3 tds and 65.1 % completion against Florida, LSU and Alabama.

In fact if you take all of Manziel's games against ranked competition this year his stats are:

1408 yds passing
489 yds rushing
11 total tds
4 ints
and 67.4 % completion rate
and that's 379.4 yards per game against top 25 teams. You can point to Florida or LSU but if you take in his whole body of work, he stands up to at least the top 2 in the competition.

Again, I got no beef with Johnny...but Teo is undefeated. Johnny isn't.

 

[kmoose]

TWO LOSES

..............losses...............

Had to do it.

 

[IrishLax]

Sup?

Who Is Johnny Manziel: Mugshot, Arrest over the Summer Falling by Wayside | Bleacher Report

Honey Badger got wrecked for his off the field issues... but Manziel is just gonna totally get a free pass. Why? Racism? Nobody cared about Manziel when it happened?

Bottom line is the kid has fortuitous timing... if he had this incident + the losses happen AFTER 'Bama then people would give a ****. As is, it's not part of his narrative.

 

[micks60]

Tell me this...are these heisman numbers?
In four games against Bama, LSU, MSSt, and Florida Manziel had...
2 td passes, 3 int, and 3 rushing td

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Sorry about the break. Had to work. That'll happen.

As to the point in the scheme as to why Te'o's numbers aren' better.

If that is the case then does Te'o not less important to his defense than Manziel is to his offense? I'm not saying that he is or isn't but it is a thought that will have to come up for voters.

And to everyone who discounts TDs against a non top 25 team then we eliminate all the INTs and big plays against good but unranked teams for Te'o?

Should Te'os numbers come down to 33 tackles 1 int 1 sack against Okla, Mich St and Stanford vs. Manziels 891 yds 3 tds and 65.1 % completion against Florida, LSU and Alabama.

In fact if you take all of Manziel's games against ranked competition this year his stats are:

1408 yds passing
489 yds rushing
11 total tds
4 ints
and 67.4 % completion rate
and that's 379.4 yards per game against top 25 teams. You can point to Florida or LSU but if you take in his whole body of work, he stands up to at least the top 2 in the competition.

You forgot his fumble recoveries bro...

Te'o is the most valuable player on the country's top defense. Stats don't win you the heisman, do they? (see Troy Smith over Brady Quinn)

These passing numbers really blow you away don't they??

Completions 241(#21)
Attempts 356(#31)
Pass Yds 3047(#18)
Pass TD 21(#27)
Interceptions 7(#62)
Completion % 67.7%(#13)
Yards/Att 8.6(#17)
QB Rating 155.1(#21)
Fumbles 3(#125)

Is he ranked top 10 in any of these categories? So you take that and say great...he's an above average quarterback, put together an extremely impressive season for a Freshman, and upset the #1 ranked team in the country (at the time)...he also didn't have what it took to win 2 games on his schedule. That can't be overemphasized. Champions find ways to win. Freshman honors...YES give them to him, but BEST player in the country? I'm not buying it...

Te'o has led the best defense in America. Pulled off an insane goalline stand vs. Stanford. Dominated the high-powered OU offense. Shut down one of the most electric playmakers in college football history in Denard Robinson. Dominated the 6th best rushing offense (yds/game). Eliminated a top 10 running back from heisman contention and made him non-existent in the game (#1 rush attempts, #9 in rush yards) MSU's Bell. And can't count out Stefan Taylor getting 0 tds and holding him to more than a yard lower than his season average.

How do you measure greatness in college football?

From the Heisman Trust:

The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work.

Manti truly meets that requirement. He's a true leader on and of the field, team captain, leader of top BCS defense, overcome major hardships this season, persevered through some amazingly tough times in college football (past 4 years at ND, coaching changes, wins/losses, etc.), Played one of the toughest schedules in all of college football (every away game sans the trip overseas was/is a night game in prime time...also one home night game and one neutral site night game), showed exactly what "winning" means by overcoming adversity against Stanford and Pitt...

Having said all that, I'm not saying Johnny Football isn't qualified, I just think he's being hyped up so much because he is a freshman. His numbers are awesome for a frehman and he has done a lot as a freshman, but we're talking best football player in America(any age)...

My vote would be for Manti. Too bad I don't actually get a vote...

 

[wakeuptheechoes]

For the record the arguments have gone on and will go on for the ages and the facts just don't matter sometimes.
In 1975 Archie Griffin won his 2nd Heisman Trophy this was is averages for that year.

Atts: 245 Yrds 1357 Avg 5.5 Rush TD 4/ Rec 13 Yrds 158 Avg 12.2 Rec TD 0

Dorsett had
Atts: 228 Yrds 1544 Avg 6.8 Rush TD 11/ Rec 11 Yrds 191 Avg 17.4 Rec TD's 3

This is easy to look at because both played the same position. It is very difficult to compare players that play different positions.

Dorsett, did win both a NC and a Heisman the following year. But is is very clear that he had the better numbers over Griffin. The arguments have been going on before that I'm sure. Since the voting is subjective there will always be differences of opinions of who should win or should have won or whatever.

But you can believe this: next year Manti Teo will likely be starting for an NFL team and making lots of tackles and lots of money. If he doesn't win he will be in very good company.

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Sup?

Who Is Johnny Manziel: Mugshot, Arrest over the Summer Falling by Wayside | Bleacher Report

Honey Badger got wrecked for his off the field issues... but Manziel is just gonna totally get a free pass. Why? Racism? Nobody cared about Manziel when it happened?

Bottom line is the kid has fortuitous timing... if he had this incident + the losses happen AFTER 'Bama then people would give a ****. As is, it's not part of his narrative.

Gotta put this again now that I see the article...

From the Heisman Trust:

The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. Winners epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work.

Pursuit of excellence with integrity....hmmmmmmmmm

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...
In fact if you take all of Manziel's games against ranked competition this year his stats are:

...

You said his numbers mean more because SEC defenses are better. So what are his stats against SEC defenses?

Conveniently throwing in "then-ranked" #25 LaTech because Manziel had 6 TD's seems a bit...disingenuous. Those TD's account for more than half of the total you just provided...

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

If wins and losses don't really matter, but knocking off the #1 team in the country does, where is Nick Florence in the heisman talk? At least he's ranked top 10 (even top 5) in some major passing stat categories....

 

[timm3117]

I still think LA Tech which was ranked higher than A&M when they played should be included but I'll work on that.

Comparably which games should I eliminate from Te'o's totals?

LA Tech is a dog! Their D is terrible, 113th in the nation in scoring D, so to include them in any argument would be laughable.

 

[timm3117]

If wins and losses don't really matter, but knocking off the #1 team in the country does, where is Nick Florence in the heisman talk? At least he's ranked top 10 (even top 5) in some major passing stat categories....

Weren't they all but giving the Heisman to Klein, then he lost one game and hes done. So why is he out of the picture but mister Football isn't.

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

I'm really glad someone started this thread, because actually the more and more I look into it, the more and more I realize Johnny shouldn't even be in the discussion with the top dogs. Now I realize Manti has a legitimate chance of walking away with the trophy! Before I thought it'd be cool to at least get an invite, but IMO (obviously as a ND fan) he should be #1 on the list at this point

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Again, I got no beef with Johnny...but Teo is undefeated. Johnny isn't.

So, with that criterion, should the best player on the national championship team win the Heisman every year? Why vote?

 

[notredomer23]

So, with that criterion, should the best player on the national championship team win the Heisman every year? Why vote?

Well, if you look at the last ten years--then yes. Most the time that is how it goes. Other than when Tebow won it and RGIII I feel like every winner was at worst on a 1 loss team.
off hand

2011 RGII 3 losses
2010 Cam NC
2009 Ingram NC
2008 Bradford Loss in NC
2007 Tebow 4 losses I am pretty sure
2006 Troy Smith Loss in NC
2005 Reggie Bush Loss in NC
2004 Matt Leinart NC
2003 Jason White pretty sure lost NC
2002 Carson Palmer Pretty sure they won the Orange Bowl.

So 7 out of 10 winners made a the national championship, 1 had a team with literally zero defense(RGIII), Tebow is one of the greatest college players ever, and that USC 2002 team lost two extremely close games and was as good as anybody.

I know that's not how the Heisman is supposed to be, but that is how it has been be for a while now it seems

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Well, if you look at the last ten years--then yes. Most the time that is how it goes. Other than when Tebow won it and RGIII I feel like every winner was at worst on a 1 loss team.
off hand

2011 RGII 3 losses
2010 Cam NC
2009 Ingram NC
2008 Bradford Loss in NC
2007 Tebow 4 losses I am pretty sure
2006 Troy Smith Loss in NC
2005 Reggie Bush Loss in NC
2004 Matt Leinart NC
2003 Jason White pretty sure lost NC
2002 Carson Palmer Pretty sure they won the Orange Bowl.

So 7 out of 10 winners made a the national championship, 1 had a team with literally zero defense(RGIII), Tebow is one of the greatest college players ever, and that USC 2002 team lost two extremely close games and was as good as anybody.

I know that's not how the Heisman is supposed to be, but that is how it has been be for a while now it seems

Sure...and I'm not arguing for Manziel. I just don't think we should default to best player on best team. That doesn't always work. Sometimes it's the best team because they have a whole bunch of good players.

 

[irishog77]

The Heisman has been a joke of an award for a long time (probably about as long as it has existed). Yeah, yeah, there's obviously prestige that goes with the award. But it's more for writers and voters to feel good about something. I'm surprised Jim Nantz hasn't tried to trademark the "human interest stories" that go with it. Anybody that actually watches football knows the actual Heisman winner is rarely the actual best player. This year will probably be no different. Anybody that actually watches games should probably have (off the top of my head) Te'o, Jones from Georgia, Lee from USC, Klein from K-State at the top of their ballot (it really is too bad OL have no real quantifiable stats to help their cause, cause lord knows some of them are always deserving).

I get the banter and arguing going back and forth on this thread, but I see no reason to really care what some lazy, fat @ss writer or what Mark Ingram or Eric Crouch thinks about the award.

 

[aubeirish]

Because the Heisman is all about perception. Obviously, when you lose the perception just gets a big hit. To me the Heisman is about who can lead his team to glory. The other awards are for stats. That is my take on it.

 

[JoeyGetherall]

More than 170 views and no response? tl;dr? I was kind of hoping for someone to agree with or debate the methodology I used (BGIF, WhiskeyJack, you listening?). I could have put this in Manti's thread, but the point wasn't to compare to Manti, it was to try to---as objectively as possible------ disagree with Manziel's legitimate Heisman candidacy.

You lost me at "LSU isn't a powerhouse" haha

 

[MNIrishman]

Joey, my point wasn't to suggest that LSU was a bad team, but merely to suggest that it's far from invulnerable. They nearly lost to Auburn. They let Towson hang 22 on them in a game that wasn't really over until the clock expired. They also nearly let Ole Miss (54th ranked scoring offense) bring them down with 35 points dropped against that vaunted defense. The same argument could be brought against us to be sure, but Manziel goofed that game worse than a Heisman man should have. LSU also has two losses, one of which was to Florida, which nearly lost to Louisiana-Lafayette. We're not the only one with close games, and I refuse to believe that a bad game against LSU can be excused because they are viewed as indomitable.