Why did Lou leave ND?

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

I was too young to remember when Lou was the coach at ND. I have always wondered why did he leave ND?

 

[RuntheBall]

Thought you meant Louis nix...

Phew crisis averted

 

[VAIrishFan]

I was too young to remember when Lou was the coach at ND. I have always wondered why did he leave ND?

I believe it was because he didn't want to break the ND wins record. (If I remember correctly)

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

Thought you meant Louis nix...

Phew crisis averted

No Lou Holtz

 

[RuntheBall]

No Lou Holtz

Haha I know, but before I clicked on the thread...

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

I believe it was because he didn't want to break the ND wins record. (If I remember correctly)

If he won more games his last year, he would have broken it. I think he was burned out.

 

[Riddickulous]

He was on the decline. Change was needed.

 

[stlnd01]

He was burned out/pushed out. Basically, it was time.

 

[military_irish]

ND wanted to take a break from being relevant for awhile.

 

[phillyirish]

There really is no clear answer, more of just a bunch of general assumptions:

-Lou Holtz didn't want to brake Rockne's record

-Administration didn't wan't Holtz to break Rockne's record.

-There was an ongoing investigation going on alleging that 2 football players raped a student in her dorm. The 2 players were found innocent.

-His wife Beth was ongoing a battle with cancer at the time.

-Holtz had spinal surgery before the season, and spent much of the year coaching from the booth wearing a neck brace

-Administration wanted the University to put more emphasis on education, and Holtz overshadowed that.

-Bob Davie did everything he could to let the administration know that he would be available for a "smooth transition" had Lou Holtz need to be pushed out.

-Lou fell out of favor with the brass by becoming bigger than the university.

-Notre Dame had 11 loses his last 3 seasons, only 9 his prior 6 seasons.

The topic involves a lot of speculation. There probably isn't one actual reason, more likely a combination of a great varying factors. Really the only conclusion that can be made-- and a general one at that-- is that with his ongoing family troubles (his surgery and wife's cancer) it became increasingly difficult to withhold the increased pressure and scrutiny that developed because of a few poor seasons and the ongoing Notre Dame investigation controversy. Add in the fact that president Rev. Monk Malloy and athletic director Mike Wadswoth showed little support and did little to convince him to stay.

 

[IrishAlum1997]

My senior year being the last of the Holtz era, I absolutely think there was a strong player loyalty to Davie, and a resentment to sticking with the option with Powlus at the helm. I heard rumblings of a player mutiny from some players at the time. Not that I thought players had that kind of control, but I definitely think there was some twisted opinion emanating through the University that the game had passed him by. The Rockne wins total was an easy scapegoat.

I truly believe that if Davie had never stepped foot on campus at Notre Dame, Lou might still be there.

 

[arahop]

-Administration wanted the University to put more emphasis on education, and Holtz overshadowed that.

I believe this statement was right on. Once the "old guard" felt the need to have more qualified football players academically, the almost 20 year long lull of mediocrity would ensue for Notre Dame football.

 

[irishtrain]

I was too young to remember when Lou was the coach at ND. I have always wondered why did he leave ND?

Basic answer is he was forced out in a poilite way. The administration was not happy with the players who were brought in as football players only. Much like LSU/Ala today. Notre Dame did not want a program that although it was controlled to a degree was getting out of hand with winning at all costs. Lou never cheated or did anything to taint Notre Dame but the administration did not want a minor league pro football team. Lou's teams dwarfed the nation in overall pro talent guys. He was the best recruiter in the nation-hands down. He also had side kick Vinnie helping convince and find the talent. The Fathers didnt like what was going on. No violations just not accentuating the college life. Davie also undercut him in many ways as it was told to me-Davie wanted that job. It is the very reason today that Notre Dame looks for college life guys who want to behave and be educated. Problem is Lou's cutting edge way of doing things is now being done at other schools and the results are evident. Notre Dame drew a line in the sand and said "we dont want to do it this way anymore" The Rockne wins deal was a smokescreen. The last 20 years the administration has run the show and the football team has not been able to win in the manner that it has in past decades. They got what they wanted.

 

[alohagoirish]

IMHO the strain on his health,-geez he was deteriorating that last season,--surgery, weight loss etc---the strain on his families health specifically his wife's cancer---were the number one incentive for leaving.

Secondly was the minnesota book trashing his ethics etc---coupled with some confusion & discontent around the staff & players.

Lou had accomplished everything he could by that point and it was now a matter of sacrificing his well being & his wife's for football---totally diminishing returns.

i think the getting pushed out by the administration stuff is exaggerated and was NOT a true factor.

 

[UmphreakDomer]

Basic answer is he was forced out in a poilite way. The administration was not happy with the players who were brought in as football players only. Much like LSU/Ala today. Notre Dame did not want a program that although it was controlled to a degree was getting out of hand with winning at all costs. Lou never cheated or did anything to taint Notre Dame but the administration did not want a minor league pro football team. Lou's teams dwarfed the nation in overall pro talent guys. He was the best recruiter in the nation-hands down. He also had side kick Vinnie helping convince and find the talent. The Fathers didnt like what was going on. No violations just not accentuating the college life. Davie also undercut him in many ways as it was told to me-Davie wanted that job. It is the very reason today that Notre Dame looks for college life guys who want to behave and be educated. Problem is Lou's cutting edge way of doing things is now being done at other schools and the results are evident. Notre Dame drew a line in the sand and said "we dont want to do it this way anymore" The Rockne wins deal was a smokescreen. The last 20 years the administration has run the show and the football team has not been able to win in the manner that it has in past decades. They got what they wanted.

i'm not saying he did either, but wasn't there a book that came out about a notre dame booster possibly paying players on lou's watch?

 

[georgia irish]

I always thought it was because the landscape in college football was changing.Remember how Miami players seem like they were the first to celebrate sacks and it seemed like ND wanted nothing to do with it. I thought this is why we raised academic standards which made it harder to win with less atheletic players.It's funny how everybody celebrates sacks now,it brought players more individual attention ND at that time seemed like they wanted to separate from that atmosphere.

 

[TDHeysus]

Lou left because he couldnt get the players to compete anymore; Players like Randy Moss and Peter Boulware were the last straw.

not beating rockne's record was what was said in public, but it truly didnt play into it. if that is the case, then there is a ceiling for any ND coach.

 

[Veer option]

Waiting for BGIF to drop a knowledge bomb.

 

[RDU Irish]

Ditto Veer.

I was on campus from 94 to 98 and my recollection is that people thought Lou lost his touch and change was needed. Davie was supposed to be the great up and comer (geesh does that sound stupid now!) that could revitalize the Irish. Three years of sub par(by Irish standards) was unacceptable. The Powlus circus definitely didn't help anything and Lou seemed unable to adapt to the new age of football.

Hopefully we learned our lesson and will be less harsh on a 9-3 "down" year or three for a proven winner and give some more latitude to the next guy who wins big for us (Kelly IMO). Holtz was beaten up by admin and alums alike and needed a breather. It was as much being pushed out as Holtz not having the energy to fight his personal battles on top of professional battles.

In a perfect world, we would have given Holtz a one or two year sabbatical, during which we would have seen Davie is a chump as HC and Holtz could come back revitalized to lead us for a while.

 

[woolybug25]

Randy Moss

 

[Rocket89]

This just happened to be a post at One Foot Down today.

30 Defining Moments in Notre Dame Football History, 1987-2011: The 1994 Collapse & The End of the Holtz Era - One Foot Down

 

[BGIF]

Waiting for BGIF to drop a knowledge bomb.

It's already here on IE from a couple of years ago. I've been searching for it unsuccessfully as I don't recall the context (aside from ND football) or timeframe of the post to narrow the search.

I'll try and reconstruct it if I can awaken enough dormant brain cells.

 

[RDU Irish]

Interesting comment after that article points out reduction in scholarships from 95 to 85 happened in 1994 (105 to 95 was in 1977) as a possible contributing factor as well.

Question - is the job more, less or similar level of stress as it was under Holtz? I might say less since we have twenty years of mediocrity and the internet age has brought all of college football under more of a microscope in some respects where ND was more scrutinized in the past. I mean there is so much more sports commentary programming that other schools get so much more pub than they did 20 years ago. While ND still gets headlines, there are so many more headlines they don't stand out as much.

 

[sfk324]

My understanding from people relatively close to the situation was that the administration was becoming less and less comfortable with the power Lou had over the Athletic Dept and the University as a whole. Monk, especially, was trying to change the view of Notre Dame as a football school into one where Notre Dame was not just the pre-eminent Catholic University in the US, but one of the pre-eminent universities in general. This was a hard sell when you're giving breaks to kids because they play a good nose tackle (Zorich) or run the option well. But given the success of the team, just firing him was essentially out of the question. Then they had two below average seasons (by the standards at the time) following a disappointing end of the 1994 season (the beginning of what I refer to as the Curse of the Davie), which made it easier for the school to limit the breaks he was getting--if he wasn't going to be competing for a NC on a yearly basis, why does he need the breaks?

And then the Kim Dunbar situation came up. Now they could say "Lou, you lost control of the team. Maybe not on the field, but off it. You screwed up, not us. We're modifying the deal." The reasons for what Lou did next are unclear--whether he felt he couldn't compete under the new restrictions, or whether he felt disrespected, or merely saw the writing on the wall that the administration wanted him out. But he gave the AD a letter of resignation and told them they had his letter, it was their decision whether to accept it or not. They did. And he was gone.

Note that this is from recollections I have of conversations I had with people 8-10 years ago, of events that were then 6+ years old. So the accuracy is likely not 100%, but given what I knew of the people involved, it seemed close enough to the truth that I've accepted it. TIFWIW.

 

[NDBoiler]

i'm not saying he did either, but wasn't there a book that came out about a notre dame booster possibly paying players on lou's watch?

Under The Tarnished Dome if I remember correctly, it was also rather a joke of a book. There was also a woman I recall who worked for a local plumbing contractor that had some sort of money embezzeling scandal that also related to ND football, but my memory escapes me on the details of that one.

 

[sfk324]

Under The Tarnished Dome if I remember correctly, it was also rather a joke of a book. There was also a woman I recall who worked for a local plumbing contractor that had some sort of money embezzeling scandal that also related to ND football, but my memory escapes me on the details of that one.

That was the Kim Dunbar situation I referenced. She embezzled over $1 Million from her employer and spent the money on ND football players in an effort to be in relationships with them. She gave them gifts and took them on trips. The staff knew about it and turned a blind eye because she wasn't an agent and didn't work for one. Unfortunately, she had joined the now-defunct Quarterback Club, which made her a booster, which made what she was doing an NCAA violation.

 

[dshans]

... She embezzled over $1 from her employer and spent the money on ND football players ...

Not to be a total *** (just a RKG ***), but I suspect there are some zeroes missing from that figure. A buck won't buy a lot of swag or dinners, even if one goes to The Dollar Store or orders from the Dollar Menu at Taco Bell.



[wink – wink, nudge – nudge, :smilewink ]

 

[sfk324]

Not to be a total *** (just a RKG ***), but I suspect there are some zeroes missing from that figure. A buck won't buy a lot of swag or dinners, even if one goes to The Dollar Store or orders from the Dollar Menu at Taco Bell.



[wink – wink, nudge – nudge, :smilewink ]

Corrected. Although my statement was true, she did embezzle more than $1.00 as well as the more problematic $1 million.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Basic answer is he was forced out in a poilite way. The administration was not happy with the players who were brought in as football players only. Much like LSU/Ala today. Notre Dame did not want a program that although it was controlled to a degree was getting out of hand with winning at all costs. Lou never cheated or did anything to taint Notre Dame but the administration did not want a minor league pro football team. Lou's teams dwarfed the nation in overall pro talent guys. He was the best recruiter in the nation-hands down. He also had side kick Vinnie helping convince and find the talent. The Fathers didnt like what was going on. No violations just not accentuating the college life. Davie also undercut him in many ways as it was told to me-Davie wanted that job. It is the very reason today that Notre Dame looks for college life guys who want to behave and be educated. Problem is Lou's cutting edge way of doing things is now being done at other schools and the results are evident. Notre Dame drew a line in the sand and said "we dont want to do it this way anymore" The Rockne wins deal was a smokescreen. The last 20 years the administration has run the show and the football team has not been able to win in the manner that it has in past decades. They got what they wanted.

Nice post. Listen to this young guys: This parable is definitely, "be careful what you wish for!"

The only thing you left out is the name of the Athletic director from hell; the Joe Moore saga, which ended under Bob Davies; and Bob Davies, salacious and libelous testimony.

Someone brought up Terry Brennan in another thread. If you talk about Terry or Lou, you are having the same converstation. Father H. or Father M., it doesn't matter. The administration wanted to de-emphasise football. Both presidents basically denied this in their memoirs, but they are the only ones.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

My understanding from people relatively close to the situation was that the administration was becoming less and less comfortable with the power Lou had over the Athletic Dept and the University as a whole. Monk, especially, was trying to change the view of Notre Dame as a football school into one where Notre Dame was not just the pre-eminent Catholic University in the US, but one of the pre-eminent universities in general. This was a hard sell when you're giving breaks to kids because they play a good nose tackle (Zorich) or run the option well. But given the success of the team, just firing him was essentially out of the question. Then they had two below average seasons (by the standards at the time) following a disappointing end of the 1994 season (the beginning of what I refer to as the Curse of the Davie), which made it easier for the school to limit the breaks he was getting--if he wasn't going to be competing for a NC on a yearly basis, why does he need the breaks?

And then the Kim Dunbar situation came up. Now they could say "Lou, you lost control of the team. Maybe not on the field, but off it. You screwed up, not us. We're modifying the deal." The reasons for what Lou did next are unclear--whether he felt he couldn't compete under the new restrictions, or whether he felt disrespected, or merely saw the writing on the wall that the administration wanted him out. But he gave the AD a letter of resignation and told them they had his letter, it was their decision whether to accept it or not. They did. And he was gone.

Note that this is from recollections I have of conversations I had with people 8-10 years ago, of events that were then 6+ years old. So the accuracy is likely not 100%, but given what I knew of the people involved, it seemed close enough to the truth that I've accepted it. TIFWIW.

Monk always liked baseball better. And res life, Monk liked res life. Monk really liked res life . . .

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