Test Of Fire - Catholics Called To Witness

[BGIF]

Got this video forwarded in an email today from Mrs. BGIF. I never heard of this group. They have a website at CC2W.net. Frankly I was surprised by the content and their mission (see their website). When I was a kid growing up in the Catholic Church, we didn't "witness". We didn't preach. We didn't proselytize. Protestants, the Mormons, and the Jehovah folks did that. We lived our faith, one day at a time, that, was witnessing through action not rhetoric.

When I was 14, my dad ran for the local Board of Education. At the time no Catholic had ever been elected to our town BOE. He had spent many years in youth (boys and girls) activities, Scouting, Sports, etc and was fairly well known in town. He was approached by both parties to run on their "ticket". He declined. A lifelong Democrat he felt Boards of Education should be about children and education not about party politics. He had gone down to Voter Registration and changed his affiliation to Independent and ran on that basis. No Independent had ever been elected to the BOE either. There was no doubt about his Catholicism as he listed his affiliation on the League of Women Voters Questionnaire as well

He had been active in Church organizations since a altar boy growing up. He was K of C, Holy Name Society, etc, etc. From the time I was able to walk I marched with him every year in the Countywide Holy Name Society Parade. When I was about ten I asked why we marched and he quietly responded, "So They know we won't be intimidated." I was baffled by his words but it was that dad tone of voice and it was years later before I understand what he was talking about.

Schoolwise he was a supporter of Separation of Church and State but thought that Catholic Schools, Jewish Schools, etc should get tax funding for English, Math, and History texts (non-religious subjects). He felt that religious courses were "Separate" but the 3 Rs were not.

The week before the election he went to the Pastor of our parish and asked that he make mention about the election during Sunday Mass Announcements. The Pastor advised that he had specific instructions from the Archdiocese that The Church did not get involved in poliitcs. My dad explained that he was running as an Independent for the kids not for a party. He asked that the Pastor mention the election and that "one of our own was running" or to simply say "check the sample ballot in the newspaper to see who's running". He noted he wasn't asking for an endorsement nor even for his name to be mentioned. He just wanted wareness among the congregation. No dice. Came Sunday there was no mention of the Election at all though every adult shouldered the school tax burden (property tax basis) and every parent had a direct interest. The night be the election each political party came calling asking him to declare for their party and advising he would finish first in the balloting if he did. (I was always curious how both parties could guarantee an election.) The top three finishers out of a field of seven would be elected. Without any mention of the election from the pulpit, he finished fourth by five or six votes out of some 3,000 cast. Our parish had more registered voters than the number of votes cast in the election.


The CC2W is not The Church but two couples as I read their website. The timeliness of this email following the 40 some lawsuits filed yesterday by Catholic Organizations including some Archdioceses ( The Church) tells me the times they are a changing.

I'm not an avid churchperson like my dad but I am a lifelong Independent. We Independents usually don't get to vote in the primaries that decide who runs in the General Elections but at least in the Presidential Election we make the difference.

I don't agree with all The Church's perspectives but I'm glad they finally discovered they have a voice.


The video's short (a lot shorter than my post) and worth a play.

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[Bluto]

I noticed this video didn't mention cutting the defense budget. Most of the priests I knew growing up were very active in the anti war movement. It also seems to not mention the churches long standing support of the labor movement, unions and immigrants rights. Just wondering if those are also issues that Catholics should consider as well this November?

 

[Bluto]

I'm a bit dumbfounded why a Catholic would be all bent out of shape by gays getting married in say a civil ceremony or some pagan ritual. It's not gonna be a church sanctified union (can people who haven't been confirmed still not get married in the church?). So it won't be legitimate in the eyes of the church and therefore God. So what's the big deal? Why is it different in the eyes of the church then say a couple of practicing Hindus getting married?

 

[NankerPhelge]

BGIF, thanks for the story and the post.

Bluto, your comments should be addressed. But, if your true intent is to learn the Catholic Church's position concerning the questions you pose, not just to provoke or attack, maybe the burden should be on you to do some study and reading from the Catholic perspective. There is plenty available out there, which would explain the Church's position on all the issues you raise. I used to try to reply in a substantive way to posts like yours, but then discovered that these issues simply cannot be addressed sufficiently in a way to do anyone's position justice, including the Church's, in a few lines on an internet discussion board. But, the answers to the questions you pose concerning the Church's reasons for taking the positions that it does are all out there and easily accessible for you, if you are really interested in knowing.

 

[Rack Em]

I noticed this video didn't mention cutting the defense budget. Most of the priests I knew growing up were very active in the anti war movement. It also seems to not mention the churches long standing support of the labor movement, unions and immigrants rights. Just wondering if those are also issues that Catholics should consider as well this November?

I'm a bit dumbfounded why a Catholic would be all bent out of shape by gays getting married in say a civil ceremony or some pagan ritual. It's not gonna be a church sanctified union (can people who haven't been confirmed still not get married in the church?). So it won't be legitimate in the eyes of the church and therefore God. So what's the big deal? Why is it different in the eyes of the church then say a couple of practicing Hindus getting married?

Catholics are not told who to vote for, however certain moral issues are of grave consequence and should have a higher importance when one enters a voting booth. We are lucky to live in a country where the defense budget and unions aren't prominent moral issues right now. The Church understands the necessity of protecting innocent civilians and across the board employment is regulated to prevent atrocious working conditions. Also, what candidate would honestly profess to scaling back the defense budget because we wouldn't want to hurt anyone? And what candidate would say outright that he supports comparable working conditions to Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"? No one would. I know I'm simplifying your statements, but those issues are not as pressing, currently.

Same-sex marriage has pushed its way forward in recent years and is a "hot topic" moral issue for the Church in America. No, it won't be a union recognized by the Church but that doesn't mean the Church should passively sit by as the moral fabric of this country changes; that would contradict its mission. Other religions do a better job of "witnessing" to their faiths and pushing their members to educate the public. Ever had a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon knock on your door? But this doesn't mean that Catholics can't do the same. We don't need to be *******s about it, but I don't understand why you find a problem with a video that attempts to get Catholics to think about the impact their faith should have on how they view moral issues in the voting booth?

Practicing Hindus getting married and two people of the same sex getting married is so far from close there really is no way to even compare them. If you want more on this, read the Catechism on the Church's views on sex and marriage.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm a bit dumbfounded why a Catholic would be all bent out of shape by gays getting married in say a civil ceremony or some pagan ritual. It's not gonna be a church sanctified union (can people who haven't been confirmed still not get married in the church?). So it won't be legitimate in the eyes of the church and therefore God. So what's the big deal? Why is it different in the eyes of the church then say a couple of practicing Hindus getting married?

The Catholic stance on same-sex "marriage" is more about values and semantics than it is about legal rights. Subsidiarity is one of the most important concepts of Catholic social thought, in which the family is the foundational building block of society. Thus, the Church views attempts to redefine marriage as an attack on the proper order of human society, and vigorously opposes such.

At the same time, the Church does not support social or legal discrimination against homosexuals. So civil unions, which seek to offer homosexuals equality before the law, are not contrary to the Church's teachings. Unfortunately, that's a fine (though important) distinction that is lost on many people.

 

[Rack Em]

The Catholic stance on same-sex "marriage" is more about values and semantics than it is about legal rights. Subsidiarity is one of the most important concepts of Catholic social thought, in which the family is the foundational building block of society. Thus, the Church views attempts to redefine marriage as an attack on the proper order of human society, and vigorously opposes such.

At the same time, the Church does not support social or legal discrimination against homosexuals. So civil unions, which seek to offer homosexuals equality before the law, are not contrary to the Church's teachings. Unfortunately, that's a fine (though important) distinction that gets lost on many people.

Well said Whiskey. Just to add on that and further one point I made above:

1) The Church condones sex only in marriage
2) Sex must be open to procreation (you can do it for fun, but accept that you might have a child)
3) Sexual acts between persons of the same sex can never be procreative and those persons wouldn't be open to creating new life
4) Therefore the Church doesn't support same-sex marriage as a result of its beliefs on sex

 

[autry_denson]

It's interesting - and I mean that literally, I'm interested in figuring out the answer - how it is that some elements of Catholic doctrine come to the fore at some times and other elements are left out. For instance, why no focus on war? Why no focus on the death penalty? Why no focus on poverty?

Catholic doctrine is crystal clear on each of these issues, just as it is on abortion. Just an observation/question.

 

[Bluto]

Thanks for the responses. Just to be clear I'm not attacking the Church or questioning its stance on anything really. All that stuff is a matter of faith and I get that. I am questioning why this video seems to be so self selective. I agree 100% with Whiskey that marriage outside of religious institutions is a civil issue and should be handled as a civil rights issue. That's kind of why I brought that up. Nobody is saying the church has to recognize gay marriage. That being the case why would Catholics want to be so intent on focusing on this issue at the expense of other pressing moral issues such as social justice and nonviolence when it comes to voting and why were those issues not addressed in the call to witness? That is all I'm asking. For the record I was born and raised Catholic. I guess the whole nonviolence thing stuck with me because anytime the local priest visited our house he would twist my and all my brothers arms and make us say "I hate guns!". Haha.

 

[TDHeysus]

....which the family is the foundational building block of society. Thus, the Church views attempts to redefine marriage as an attack on the proper order of human society, and vigorously opposes such.

...At the same time, the Church does not support social or legal discrimination against homosexuals. So civil unions, which seek to offer homosexuals equality before the law, are not contrary to the Church's teachings. Unfortunately, that's a fine (though important) distinction that gets lost on many people....

I'm totally asking for it here, violating one of my own personal guidelines of not debating politics or religion, but...(FYI, i will NOT get into a back and forth debate over this)

the bolded statement I have an issue with, it seems like double-talk. Im using an exaggerated example, but if I am opposed to inter-racial marriages because I feel that those marriages are eroding the natural family foundation in society, and I then deny inter-racial couples to be married, whether its based on my beliefs or not, its still discrimination.

Am I missing the point?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's interesting - and I mean that literally, I'm interested in figuring out the answer - how it is that some elements of Catholic doctrine come to the fore at some times and other elements are left out. For instance, why no focus on war? Why no focus on the death penalty? Why no focus on poverty?

Catholic doctrine is crystal clear on each of these issues, just as it is on abortion. Just an observation/question.

What should the focus on war be? The Church preaches Just War Doctrine, but even under those criteria, there's no clear-cut position for the Church to take on the war in Afghanistan.

The Church's stance on the death penalty is, in practice, universal opposition, as death is virtually never necessary to incapacitate someone these days. Though this is largely a state issue, so unless you live in a state where: (1) it's legal; (2) frequently practiced; and (3) a state election is coming up in which the death penalty will be a relevant issue, then it makes little sense for the Church to organize a public response to it.

What should the focus on poverty be? Poverty in this country, or world poverty? Catholic jargon such as social justice, the common good, and the preferential option for the poor are frequently twisted by those on the left for political gain. Catholic social teaching isn't right or left, though liberals would have us believe that there's only one set of policies that fulfill such principals.

As a liberal, you wonder why the Church is publicly advocating for its socially-conservative principals instead of its more left-leaning positions. The reasons are simple: (1) the Church is currently under attack from a left-leaning political regime, so it's naturally defending those principals which are out of step with Washington's current politics; and (2) the policy prescriptions that you think obviously flow from the Church's more liberal positions aren't nearly that obvious; for instance, the preferential option for the poor should also be compatible with subsidiarity, so most Federal solutions to poverty can be rightly opposed as dangerous infringements on individual freedom and the sovereignty of small governmental bodies.

 

[Redbar]

I noticed this video didn't mention cutting the defense budget. Most of the priests I knew growing up were very active in the anti war movement. It also seems to not mention the churches long standing support of the labor movement, unions and immigrants rights. Just wondering if those are also issues that Catholics should consider as well this November?

It's interesting - and I mean that literally, I'm interested in figuring out the answer - how it is that some elements of Catholic doctrine come to the fore at some times and other elements are left out. For instance, why no focus on war? Why no focus on the death penalty? Why no focus on poverty?

Catholic doctrine is crystal clear on each of these issues, just as it is on abortion. Just an observation/question.

You can pose these as questions, but we all know the answer.

 

[autry_denson]

As a liberal, you wonder why the Church is publicly advocating for its socially-conservative principals instead of its more left-leaning positions.

I wonder this as a Catholic, not as a "liberal".

The point is that this video promotes an extremely *selective* policy agenda. It's not a call to Catholics, it's a call to socially conservative Catholics. If it were a call to Catholics then issues like jobs and poverty would not be raised and then dismissed as relatively unimportant, which they are in this ad. If it were a call to all Catholics then issues like the death penalty and gun control would be included, but they are not. This is using the institution to promote a socially conservative political agenda, it's not a call to generate activism on policy issues that pertain to the Catholic church.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

the bolded statement I have an issue with, it seems like double-talk. Im using an exaggerated example, but if I am opposed to inter-racial marriages because I feel that those marriages are eroding the natural family foundation in society, and I then deny inter-racial couples to be married, whether its based on my beliefs or not, its still discrimination.

Am I missing the point?

Sort of. It's not "discrimination", in the sense that you used the word, because it's not motivated by personal animus towards homosexuals. The Church has always taught the the purpose of sex is procreation. Any sexual act that is not open to procreation is therefore immoral, as an abuse of God's design for the human body. Marriage within the Church is a sacrament and a vocation, whereby two people start a family and promise to be open to procreation. Since same-sex couples are incapable of procreating, they aren't capable of being married as the Church defines the term.

That said, the Church doesn't advocate that its moral teachings be codified in legislation and imposed upon non-Catholics. So it's entirely consistent for the Church to teach that homosexuality activity is immoral, but to not oppose civil unions for same-sex couples.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This message isn't coming from the Vatican or the US Conference of Bishops. The video was produced by a (likely socially conservative) group of Catholics in Florida. You're seeing things like this because the current administration is actively hostile toward some of the Church's foundational doctrines.

If you wanted to create a liberal Catholic non-profit for the purpose of advocating the Catholic position on some of the issues you listed above, I'd applaud it, though I seriously doubt your understanding of those positions in light of the contempt you seem to have for the Church. For instance, what exactly is the Church's stance on gun control?

How about jobs and poverty? Is Mitt Romney promoting some policy that is at fundamental odds with Catholic teaching?

 

[autry_denson]

If you wanted to create a liberal Catholic non-profit for the purpose of advocating the Catholic position on some of the issues you listed above, I'd applaud it, though I seriously doubt your understanding of those positions in light of the contempt you seem to have for the Church. For instance, what exactly is the Church's stance on gun control?

Let me quote:

"As bishops, we support measures that control the sale and use of firearms and make them safer -- especially efforts that prevent their unsupervised use by children or anyone other than the owner -- and we reiterate our call for sensible regulation of handguns."

"However, we believe that in the long run and with few exceptions -- i.e. police officers, military use -- handguns should be eliminated from our society."

 

[Bluto]

Cardinal Timothy Dolan took a pretty good swipe at the GOP's position on immigration recently.

 

[Bluto]

Video is a bit old but....
Catholic Church on Labor Unions - YouTube

 

[Whiskeyjack]

"As bishops, we support measures that control the sale and use of firearms and make them safer -- especially efforts that prevent their unsupervised use by children or anyone other than the owner -- and we reiterate our call for sensible regulation of handguns."

Yes. A single sentence from the US Bishops in "Responsibility, Rehabilitation and Restoration: A Catholic Perspective on Crime and Criminal Justice" from November, 2000. Few people would disagree with this.

"However, we believe that in the long run and with few exceptions -- i.e. police officers, military use -- handguns should be eliminated from our society."

A footnote in the same tract expressing what amounts to a utopian aspiration. This isn't doctrine and it isn't binding on anyone.

What you just quoted seems to be the sum total of the "Church's" (and really, only the American Bishops') opinion on gun control. Should the Church officially wade into political battle based on those two sentences, neither of which is even part of Catholic doctrine?

As I've mentioned previously, I'm firmly in favor of the separation of church and state. When the Church's right of conscience is specifically targeted, as in the HHS mandate, it has a duty to defend itself in court and the public square. But the Church is wise to otherwise refrain from politicizing itself.

Cardinal Timothy Dolan took a pretty good swipe at the GOP's position on immigration recently.

As he should. I'll be the last to argue that Jesus would have been a Republican.

 

[autry_denson]

You asked, you received. You're welcome.

We're not debating here. My point was that this video is a call to socially conservative Catholics to promote a a socially conservative political agenda. That's fine, as long as it's not painted as a Catholic agenda. A Catholic agenda would look very different. You acknowledged this. There's no argument.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You asked, you received. You're welcome.

We're not debating here. My point was that this video is a call to socially conservative Catholics to promote a a socially conservative political agenda. That's fine, as long as it's not painted as a Catholic agenda. A Catholic agenda would look very different. You acknowledged this. There's no argument.

I agree that that video isn't a reflection of the "Catholic agenda". I never claimed that it was. You asked why the socially conservative aspects of Catholic teaching are being emphasized. I responded that it's attributable to the current administration's hostility to some of those teachings.

Not sure where you got the idea that I'm arguing GOP = Catholic Church.

 

[Irish YJ]

Now, back to ND football.......

 

[ND NYC]

All due respect BGIF, but that video is garbage. It's a pure political propoganda piece---bought and paid for by Republicans no doubt who want to win an election in November and probably dont give two shits about what they put in the ad or about our Cathoilic faith.

I'm a Republican, and I'm also Catholic and i TAKE OFFENCE to the ad as im sure Democratic Catholics certainly will.

The ad is basically saying if you dont vote Republican then your not a true practicing Catholic. This is hogwash. "My vote in the Nov election is recorded for eternity" per the video?....puhlease.

I dont want ANY political party getting involved in mine or any religion (separation of church and state cuts both ways).

The priest you describe in your story did exactly the right thing---he kept your dads local public election out of the pews and his Church.

People of all faiths need to be smart enough to understand when political parties on BOTH SIDES are using and exploiting their faith...to get votes.

 

[Redbar]

As I've mentioned previously, I'm firmly in favor of the separation of church and state. When the Church's right of conscience is specifically targeted, as in the HHS mandate, it has a duty to defend itself in court and the public square. But the Church is wise to otherwise refrain from politicizing itself.

Totally agree... and those of us that do should be very skeptical of "Catholics" that aim to use the church in a way that the church, as you say, is wise to refrain from itself.

All due respect BGIF, but that video is garbage. It's a pure political propoganda piece---bought and paid for by Republicans no doubt who want to win an election in November and probably dont give two shits about what they put in the ad or about our Cathoilic faith.

I'm a Republican, and I'm also Catholic and i TAKE OFFENCE to the ad as im sure Democratic Catholics certainly will.

The ad is basically saying if you dont vote Republican then your not a true practicing Catholic. This is hogwash. "My vote in the Nov election is recorded for eternity" per the video?....puhlease.

I dont want ANY political party getting involved in mine or any religion (separation of church and state cuts both ways).

The priest you describe in your story did exactly the right thing---he kept your dads local public election out of the pews and his Church.

People of all faiths need to be smart enough to understand when political parties on BOTH SIDES are using and exploiting their faith...to get votes.

Totally agree! Especially with the last part, as I believe it is THE tactic of an extremist; irregardless of faith or political leaning.

Reps!

 

[Ben E.]

While their at it how about a video asking Catholics to rise up and stop supporting catholic politicians who don't denounce abortion??? Never could understand that....