Notre Dame Files Lawsuit Over Obamacare

[Rhode Irish]

Isn't that proof that there's room for consensus on this issue? Your politics are further left than most in this thread, though you have no problem with ND's claim to exemption under the Establishment Clause. I don't see why this issue is suddenly irreconcilable. Just as in the gay marriage debate, I'm not interested in convincing anyone of the Church's moral superiority. I think everyone can agree that the government shouldn't interfere with the sincerely held religious beliefs of Catholics.



Arguing for the separation of church and state places me with the hard right?

I've never once made an argument against the separation of church and state or criticized ND's position here. I've been debating some of the connected issues about healthcare reform and I've recognized the counter arguments from Fox News and AM radio. I like you and I'm sure we'll have ample opportunity to debate policy going forward, but I'm walking to the first tee and I'm going to use this opportunity to bow out of this. As I said before, I don't think there is a lot more I can accomplish in this thread.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I've never once made an argument against the separation of church and state or criticized ND's position here. I've been debating some of the connected issues about healthcare reform and I've recognized the counter arguments from Fox News and AM radio. I like you and I'm sure we'll have ample opportunity to debate policy going forward, but I'm walking to the first tee and I'm going to use this opportunity to bow out of this. As I said before, I don't think there is a lot more I can accomplish in this thread.

Them's fightin' words.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Them's fightin' words.

They really are, and such a cop out.

You disagree with Barack Obama, you must be a minion of Fox News!!!

 

[Bluto]

Ahhh yes the old "take federal money, and they know own you" trick.

F*ck the federal government.

Didn't they fund the r and d that gave rise to the internet? The feds had a pretty heavy hand in developing gps, jet propulsion and the inner state highway system too if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Bluto]

Didn't the BLM play an instrumental role in addressing the issues that gave rise to the dust bowl? I think the fed also developed the Universal Traverse Mercator grid.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Didn't they fund the r and d that gave rise to the internet? The feds had a pretty heavy hand in developing gps, jet propulsion and the inner state highway system too if I'm not mistaken.

Well I wouldn't want to take credit for the interstates. They've sorta ruined this country.

I see what you're saying, but it is ridiculous.

 

[Black Irish]

They really are, and such a cop out.

You disagree with Barack Obama, you must be a minion of Fox News!!!

Being a Fox News minion isn't so bad. They have so many hot women.

 

[Bluto]

Well I wouldn't want to take credit for the interstates. They've sorta ruined this country.

I see what you're saying, but it is ridiculous.

Not sure about the rest of the country but the interstates made a mess of Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure the DuPonts did a lot of arm twisting however in terms of the scale of the freeway system in LA. I agree that the Fed has done a lot of dumb stuff. The Army Corp screwed up all kinds of natural areas in the 30's - 50's. For example they scrapped an awesome flood controll plan for the LA Basin developed by Fredrick Law Olmstead using natural flood basins and riverparkways in favor of the concrete channels made famous in the movie Grease. I agree the Fed is not perfect but it's a bit extreme to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. On that note something else I find interesting are all all of the folks I know who are prison guards (union members), people who work for federal contractors like Boeing and people on Social Security who go on and on about the evils of unions and the big bad government. Interesting conversation.

 

[Bluto]

Being a Fox News minion isn't so bad. They have so many hot women.

If you're looking for hot newscasters Univision or Telemundo are the hands down winners.

 

[gkIrish]

Odds are good that 5 Justices disagree with you. Considering this interpretation of the Commerce Clause would grant Congress virtually unlimited power, I can't say I disagree with them.

Agreed. I'll bet 5 million vbucks Kennedy votes against Obamacare

 

[ND NYC]

If you're looking for hot newscasters Univision or Telemundo are the hands down winners.

on this we can ALL agree

ciao!

 

[Buster Bluth]

Not sure about the rest of the country but the interstates made a mess of Los Angeles. I'm pretty sure the DuPonts did a lot of arm twisting however in terms of the scale of the freeway system in LA. I agree that the Fed has done a lot of dumb stuff. The Army Corp screwed up all kinds of natural areas in the 30's - 50's. For example they scrapped an awesome flood controll plan for the LA Basin developed by Fredrick Law Olmstead using natural flood basins and riverparkways in favor of the concrete channels made famous in the movie Grease. I agree the Fed is not perfect but it's a bit extreme to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. On that note something else I find interesting are all all of the folks I know who are prison guards (union members), people who work for federal contractors like Boeing and people on Social Security who go on and on about the evils of unions and the big bad government. Interesting conversation.

Name me some things that the federal government can do more efficiently than simply giving block grants to the states?

I'll go ahead and say Social Security (only if they stopped stealing from the fund every god damn year until it went red) and the military (which should still be reduced by 30-40%).

Anything else?

I'm not some freak Tea Partier who wants to destroy all government. I simply want efficient systems and thus I despise the vast majority of what the Federal government does. Having 50 governments testing policies that work for them, and seeing what works and what doesn't (so the other states can take notice and emulate or avoid), is a much smarter way to function as a country.

 

[ACamp1900]

The gov. has certainly done a better job with our national parks than when they were privately run... but yeah...

that's about the only thing I can think of.

 

[Buster Bluth]

The gov. has certainly done a better job with our national parks than when they were privately run... but yeah...

that's about the only thing I can think of.

But are national parks run more efficiently than state parks (not including budget cuts, as the block grant would pay for it) if the national parks were transferred to state control? I'm really not advocating that, I think we can leave the parks alone haha

Parks systems in general are operated with the some of the highest levels of efficiency on any level believe it or not. The reason, in my opinion, is pretty simple: park rangers and the people in charge have a huge amount of pride and interest in what they are doing. That, and you don't need ton of regulations to run a park haha

 

[gkIrish]

'Pro-Choice' Americans At Record Low, Poll Finds - Yahoo! News

 

[Downinthebend]

Whoops see edit. Meant to say anybody. You keep making the argument that if someone can afford to "opt out" of a public service such as education or healthcare by paying for it privately then they should not be taxed at all to support those public institutions. If you follow that logic people paying for private security should not have to support the local police and on and on. The central government becomes defunded which leads to poorer and poorer delivery of public services and there goes the neighborhood. Actually, that is pretty much how California's public education system currently works as well due to the 2/3rd majority required to pass bond issues and or raise taxes. As a life long resident of that State I can assure you it has been a disaster and furthermore Golson should start.

Wasn't able to respond when you disagreed with my school example the first time, and missed this until now. I was trying to say that the if someone has enough $$ to pay for two systems, that shouldn't be reason enough to force them to pay for two systems. I'm not trying to say that rich folks shouldn't get taxes. This was in response to you (or someone else, I don't remember) pointing out that in the UK (and new zealand?) people with enough money can speed up the process. Well sure, they can speed it up, but that doesn't make the system any more justified, and that shouldn't be brought up as a reason that advocates for that system.

Wouldn't it be nice, that instead of there being a (bad) public school system, everybody got lower taxes that they could spend themselves towards (good) education? Can't this be expanded to many other avenues if true?

 

[Black Irish]

If you're looking for hot newscasters Univision or Telemundo are the hands down winners.

Can't argue with that, and I do prefer brunettes anyway (besides, all those Latinas are right-leaning anyway, the libs are stuck with Rachel Maddow).

 

[Bluto]

Name me some things that the federal government can do more efficiently than simply giving block grants to the states?

I'll go ahead and say Social Security (only if they stopped stealing from the fund every god damn year until it went red) and the military (which should still be reduced by 30-40%).

Anything else?

I'm not some freak Tea Partier who wants to destroy all government. I simply want efficient systems and thus I despise the vast majority of what the Federal government does. Having 50 governments testing policies that work for them, and seeing what works and what doesn't (so the other states can take notice and emulate or avoid), is a much smarter way to function as a country.

The fed did a pretty good job ending Jim Crow. If the yahoos in places like Arizona would put a sock in it I'm sure a sensible immigration reform bill could be passed. So far the states have done a horrible job with this (see Arizona). I doubt any state other than California if it pulled it's collective head out of its butt could support a space research program. NOAA and the national weather service does a pretty good job forecasting Hurrincanes and issuing tornado warnings and the like. The USGS does a good job updating and recording all of the datums used for GPS and surveying and maintaing the satellites needed for this. When the Army Corp puts is mind to it is capable of coordinating habitat restoration and flood mitigation on a huge scale. What about regulating water rights issues across state lines? Los Angeles county sherrifs and members of the Arizona national guard almost shot it out over water rights to the Colorado way back when. Anyhow, I wasn't assuming you were a tea party guy. Although at this point the crazy tea party folks seem to have overrun the GOP asylum.

 

[Bluto]

Wasn't able to respond when you disagreed with my school example the first time, and missed this until now. I was trying to say that the if someone has enough $$ to pay for two systems, that shouldn't be reason enough to force them to pay for two systems. I'm not trying to say that rich folks shouldn't get taxes. This was in response to you (or someone else, I don't remember) pointing out that in the UK (and new zealand?) people with enough money can speed up the process. Well sure, they can speed it up, but that doesn't make the system any more justified, and that shouldn't be brought up as a reason that advocates for that system.

Wouldn't it be nice, that instead of there being a (bad) public school system, everybody got lower taxes that they could spend themselves towards (good) education? Can't this be expanded to many other avenues if true?

Actually from everything I've seen and read in regards to education the key is equitable resource distribution for all schools in the system. Theres a pretty good article out there in cyber space that talks about this being the key to success in Finland. Here in the States for profit schools and charters according to just about every study I've seen do not outperform public schools. A lot of people are gonna hate this but a socialist model for education (ie equal resource distribution) seems to be ideal. I will now go burry my head in the sand and await the coming insults. Haha.

 

[Black Irish]

Actually from everything I've seen and read in regards to education the key is equitable resource distribution for all schools in the system. Theres a pretty good article out there in cyber space that talks about this being the key to success in Finland. Here in the States for profit schools and charters according to just about every study I've seen do not outperform public schools. A lot of people are gonna hate this but a socialist model for education (ie equal resource distribution) seems to be ideal. I will now go burry my head in the sand and await the coming insults. Haha.

I'm not going to say that all public schools are bad and all private schools are terrific, but the smart money is usually on the private school. As far as resources go, yes, things work better when they are allocated effectively but that seems to be exactly where public schools fail. There's a school district in my state that spends almost as much per student as the top-tier private schools do. Guess which schools do a better job?

 

[Buster Bluth]

The fed did a pretty good job ending Jim Crow.

Is that a program/department?

If the yahoos in places like Arizona would put a sock in it I'm sure a sensible immigration reform bill could be passed. So far the states have done a horrible job with this (see Arizona).

I highly doubt it. Arizona isn't passing immigration reform, it's passing laws to enforce the current law. Just because the people in Washington don't have to live with the effects of illegal immigration, doesn't mean that they should expect the people who are on the front line, literally, to sit idly by too.

I want immigration reform (and that goes under protecting the border, an obvious federal issue).

I doubt any state other than California if it pulled it's collective head out of its butt could support a space research program.

True, but let's not pretend that private research wouldn't be more cost efficient anyway. Companies like SpaceX, etc., performing government bids is obviously the future.

NOAA and the national weather service does a pretty good job forecasting Hurrincanes and issuing tornado warnings and the like. The USGS does a good job updating and recording all of the datums used for GPS and surveying and maintaing the satellites needed for this.

I'm in complete agreement with you on this. The NOAA's FY2012 budget was a whopping $5.5 billion; the USGS's budget is $1.1 billion. #reckless

When the Army Corp puts is mind to it is capable of coordinating habitat restoration and flood mitigation on a huge scale.

Army is the key word. I already said that.

What about regulating water rights issues across state lines? Los Angeles county sherrifs and members of the Arizona national guard almost shot it out over water rights to the Colorado way back when.

Water rights are tricky. My personal belief is that the Great Lakes States should say "f*ck you" to states that need their water. Places in the Southwest simply shouldn't exist, because of the lack of water. If the Southwest is going to take jobs and people away from the midwest, then they can find a way to make their own water.

Although at this point the crazy tea party folks seem to have overrun the GOP asylum.

I'm in complete agreement. I am actually a registered Democrat, who votes 90% Republican on the nation levels, but when people ask me what party I side with I usually say this:

I'm either a Democrat who believes in states' rights, being fiscally responsible, and could care less about unions.....or I'm a Republican who doesn't mind responsible regulation and taxes, doesn't think the Defense Department should have carte blanche, and wants to see the Drug War ended.

But let me ask you this: of those tiny tiny things you mentioned, and a lot of them I agree with.....what percentage of the federal budget does that make up? 5%?

 

[Bluto]

Hey Buster those are all good points. Having been born and raised in the west and after looking at this topic in grad school I feel comfortable saying the problem of illegal immigration has been a bit overblown and illegal immigrants from all the studies I've seen are a net positive in terms of taxes paid and benifits taken. I would say the biggest effect has been suppressed wages in agricultural production and the service industries due to illegals being an easily exploited labor pool. The Arizona response has serious civil rights implications and I think it was Alabama that screwed the pooch by scaring off its agricultural labor pool so they just got what they asked for. You would think that with NAFTA allowing coporations to go back and forth as they please between Mexico and the US that the labor pools in those countries would be afforded the same luxury. Anyhow, I guess the bottom line for me is that the Parks, NASA, NOAA, Education and those types of programs which make up a pittence of the national budget as you pointed out and serve the public good even for industry seem to be front and center on the chopping block. Until there is some serious discussion about scaling back the Defense Department budget I think this whole idea of a balanced budget and responsible governance is going nowhere fast. Anyhow, this is all a bit off topic and I think Golson should start and typing on an IPhone is really hard. Haha.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Hey Buster those are all good points. Having been born and raised in the west and after looking at this topic in grad school I feel comfortable saying the problem of illegal immigration has been a bit overblown and illegal immigrants from all the studies I've seen are a net positive in terms of taxes paid and benifits taken. I would say the biggest effect has been suppressed wages in agricultural production and the service industries due to illegals being an easily exploited labor pool. The Arizona response has serious civil rights implications and I think it was Alabama that screwed the pooch by scaring off its agricultural labor pool so they just got what they asked for.

I think I disagree that it's a net positive without them being registered.

My personal opinion is to build the wall and grant amnesty to everyone that is here. Immigration has always been good for this country, and the GOP needs to get on board with that. These are hardworking folks, not welfare-lifers.

Mexicans are really natural conservatives, so the GOP should do a complete 180 and be rushing to get as many of them in. But again, the GOP is held hostage by "conservatives" who are xenophobic and don't want to lose their job. And to some extent the economic impact is a legitimate concern.

Anyhow, I guess the bottom line for me is that the Parks, NASA, NOAA, Education and those types of programs which make up a pittence of the national budget as you pointed out and serve the public good even for industry seem to be front and center on the chopping block.

Education? I don't agree with that. The DOE should be obliterated and block grants should replace it.

US National Park Service FY2011 budget was $3.14 billion. Mere pennies.

Until there is some serious discussion about scaling back the Defense Department budget I think this whole idea of a balanced budget and responsible governance is going nowhere fast.

So sad, and so true. I'm a big Romney supporter--always have been--and think he'd do an excellent job in the Oval Office, but his "increase the size of the military!!!" stance is annoying. I wonder if he's being honest or rallying the votes when he says that, but the military needs to be slashed left and right.

End this stupid wars and invest in this country.

 

[IrishinSyria]

THIS WAS MY 2000TH POST!!! THE CONTENT IS SO FITTING FOR ME. I noticed after...

I just disagree with this entire bill in general, but I completely understand and sympathize with the religious groups who are rightly outraged by this. We as a nation need to start policing our government, but the major problem why **** like this passes is because of a complicit media and an apathetic electorate. The average American could probably name all of the douchebags on the Jersey Shore, but couldn't tell you their elected representatives. We as a society are well and truly lost. Priorities...

I simply view this as a chapter in a much larger book of why America is in the shitter and will remain there. The people have let the government go. It's basically fascism at this point.

Crime rates have dramatically fallen over the past 20 years, life expectancies have gone up, and- even taking the recession into account, one would have to try hard to starve to death in the America of today. We are the world's largest economy, have the world's strongest military, and are still on the cutting edge of science. Our colleges and Universities are the best in the world, and we've created a culture where volunteer positions like the Peace Corps and Teach for America have become ultra-competitive. Even when we go to war, we take extraordinary measures to ensure our troops come back alive and healthy. Things aren't all sunshine and roses, but- to be honest- you are delusional if you believe America is "in the shitter." It is better luck to be born in America (or a select few American allies) today than it would have been to have been born in any other country at any other point in history.

Once again, no doubt that there are problems. But sometimes it helps to put things in perspective.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

You're sending mixed signals here, Buster. Remember, we're advancing a radical right-wing agenda because we don't believe the Federal government can or should try to fix every problem this country faces.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I'm not going to say that all public schools are bad and all private schools are terrific, but the smart money is usually on the private school. As far as resources go, yes, things work better when they are allocated effectively but that seems to be exactly where public schools fail. There's a school district in my state that spends almost as much per student as the top-tier private schools do. Guess which schools do a better job?

Apples and oranges. Who is going to those private schools? How involved are the parents? What is the socioeconomic status?

People point to private schools as a reason for a voucher system and a free market approach to education. But, as a society, we educate all of our students. Therefore, until public schools can screen students prior to accepting them or just get rid of those who underachieve (the free market equivalent of firing a bad employee), I believe it's a flawed argument.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Apples and oranges. Who is going to those private schools? How involved are the parents? What is the socioeconomic status?

People point to private schools as a reason for a voucher system and a free market approach to education. But, as a society, we educate all of our students. Therefore, until public schools can screen students prior to accepting them or just get rid of those who underachieve (the free market equivalent of firing a bad employee), I believe it's a flawed argument.

Well I'll agree that it's apples and oranges, and I even posted a lengthy response defending the hardships that public schools face.

But, what exactly are you saying about vouchers? I think we should voucher anyone whom a private school will accept into their school. It's a better environment and you get better results. It's good for the community and country!

I think public schools are against vouchers because it will take 1) their best students, 2) the families willing to take the time to go to private schools, and 3) their athletes. They are ultimately afraid of losing their pieces of the pie. I think it's sick.

If you've got 100 kids, and 70 of them are super poor and don't have any parental support and are heading directly for the welfare cycle....and 30 have parental support and have potential to get out of the system....they need to be free to get out while they still can. We should fully be supporting vouchers with more and more cash, as well as charter schools. ANYTHING that gets results should be supported.

 

[Rhode Irish]

You're sending mixed signals here, Buster. Remember, we're advancing a radical right-wing agenda because we don't believe the Federal government can or should try to fix every problem this country faces.

I'm not assigning ownership to you of the entire right-wing agenda, but the "government-is-evil" stuff is, in my view, rightist propaganda. That doesn't change the fact that I generally respect your opinions. I'm sure you identify some of what I say as leftist talking points, even though I certainly don't take ownership of the entire left-wing agenda. I hope you're not getting upset about that.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm not assigning ownership to you of the entire right-wing agenda, but the "government-is-evil" stuff is, in my view, rightist propaganda. That doesn't change the fact that I generally respect your opinions. I'm sure you identify some of what I say as leftist talking points, even though I certainly don't take ownership of the entire left-wing agenda. I hope you're not getting upset about that.

I was just being snarky, though I don't ever recall saying that "government is evil". I just think the Feds do a lot of stuff poorly that would be accomplished more effectively at lower levels of government.

We probably agree on a surprising amount. But for some reason, the libertarian perspective rarely gets challenged around here. I suppose that's a good sign.

 

[Buster Bluth]

But for some reason, the libertarian perspective rarely gets challenged around here.

I have a love/hate relationship with libertarianism. I love it against the federal government, but against local governments I DESPISE it.

I dunno, I find the group of people who show up to meetings about spending money on a park or public transit and cry "what is the government doing in the park business!!!" and other nonsense to be deplorable. I hate them, and it's a strong hate.

Libertarianism is often associated with a strong belief in property rights, and I am not in that crowd.

The difference, of course, is that you don't have to live in a city (e.g. Columbus), and if you don't like it you can, rather easily, move out (e.g. Delaware County) and live in the middle of the field. There is, realistically, no escaping federal laws.

In short I despise "libertarian" attacks on things like public transit and public investment into schools and cities.....but I fully support the attack on the Fed.

An addendum: as I said earlier about socialism, I agree with accepting that we live in a society. We live with neighbors and must live together in a community and laws will reflect that (e.g. you have limitations as to what you can do with your property in terms of pollution, or what you can paint on your house, or even that you must pay taxes to support public transit, schools, and parks whether you like it or not).

But I shouldn't have to follow the same laws and regulations as someone who lives in Minnesota. I want to live how I want to live. And of course there will be a gray area of when that happens, and it's correctly at the state and local level.