How Urban Broke Florida Football

[Rhode Irish]

I doubt many alumni feel that way.

I am not an alum, and I don't feel that way. I have to wonder why, if you do feel that way, would you not just go root for another team? Since I'm not an alum, the fact that ND does things the right way is the draw for me. If ND was just another dirty football factory, it would just be some school in Nowheresville, IN.

 

[ThePiombino]

and also the one that destroyed the integrity of the hall of fame in addition to tarnishing all of the best stars of a 20 year era? Or were you talking about the fact that Barry Bonds is now the record holder for homeruns, completely shitting all over the history of the game?


Fans would have came back regardless of the homeruns. They left because of the lockout and would have slowly came back. The rush was because America was completely fleeced by a bunch of idiots that thought the next big contract was more important than the integrity of the game.

As a lifelong baseball fan, I couldn't disagree with you more...

As a baseball fan, I would think you'd realize that cheating didn't begin with steroids. Cheating has been a part of this game for as long as it has existed. Integrity was lost no more than it was lost when the baseball HOF inducted an accused murderer, bigot, and womanizer in it's FIRST CLASS! Does anyone consider Mickey Mantle - a raging alcoholic - to have tarnished the integrity of the game? What about Willie Mays who is on record as having used amphetamines to get through games? The "steroid era" was nothing more than the next step in gaining an edge in the great game of baseball. You say fans would have come back. Why? This country wants violence. It wants offense. It's the very reason football is the new past time. Baseball would not have flourished anymore than soccer flourishes in this country (compared to others where it's borderline religion) had it not been for the steroid era.

 

[ACamp1900]

I am not an alum, and I don't feel that way. I have to wonder why, if you do feel that way, would you not just go root for another team? Since I'm not an alum, the fact that ND does things the right way is the draw for me. If ND was just another dirty football factory, it would just be some school in Nowheresville, IN.

I teach college courses for a living... and that created the reason I personally held to ND as an adult... the standards. I do honestly believe I am rare in any fanbase... fans want wins, period... and I do believe ND's base is no different. If BK wins titles then leaves in scandal a large portion of this base, fan and alum alike, will be like any other in the country and excuse it... I believe that. If someone disagrees then that's your right.

Not casting a light on any person here, and generalizations are harsh, but yeah... I guess that's just where I am with cfb right now. No one cares about academics but the schools that can't rep anything else. Also, it should be noted that ND has not "won the right way" lately... part of that equation is winning.

 

[woolybug25]

As a baseball fan, I would think you'd realize that cheating didn't begin with steroids. Cheating has been a part of this game for as long as it has existed. Integrity was lost no more than it was lost when the baseball HOF inducted an accused murderer, bigot, and womanizer in it's FIRST CLASS! Does anyone consider Mickey Mantle - a raging alcoholic - to have tarnished the integrity of the game? What about Willie Mays who is on record as having used amphetamines to get through games? The "steroid era" was nothing more than the next step in gaining an edge in the great game of baseball. You say fans would have come back. Why? This country wants violence. It wants offense. It's the very reason football is the new past time. Baseball would not have flourished anymore than soccer flourishes in this country (compared to others where it's borderline religion) had it not been for the steroid era.

Don't give me that crap. None of those things CHEATED THE GAME. Newsflash: star athletes in all sports since the dawn of sports have been a**holes. They cheat on their wives, they gamble and they do drugs. That doesn't mean that they cheated the games they participated in. Steroids helped players cheat the very game they supposedly loved and destroyed the integrity of an entire chapter of baseball's history. Comparing that to an alcoholic (which in most cases, would hurt their ability to perform) is belittling everyone's intelligence.

I expect better arguments from a poster like you.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

As a baseball fan, I would think you'd realize that cheating didn't begin with steroids. Cheating has been a part of this game for as long as it has existed. Integrity was lost no more than it was lost when the baseball HOF inducted an accused murderer, bigot, and womanizer in it's FIRST CLASS! Does anyone consider Mickey Mantle - a raging alcoholic - to have tarnished the integrity of the game? What about Willie Mays who is on record as having used amphetamines to get through games? The "steroid era" was nothing more than the next step in gaining an edge in the great game of baseball. You say fans would have come back. Why? This country wants violence. It wants offense. It's the very reason football is the new past time. Baseball would not have flourished anymore than soccer flourishes in this country (compared to others where it's borderline religion) had it not been for the steroid era.

I realize that cheating didn't start w steroids it just galvanized how bad they were for the game. To have the records fall the way they did with steroids injected into the game (pun intended), showed that they made all other issues in the game pale in comparison. The game was a joke at the height of the steroid era. Take the names and years away from the stats and put them up against historical numbers and it will be clear how clearly baseball had gone out of control. Baseball would have come back without a doubt. Baseball is Americas game, soccer not so much.

 

[ThePiombino]

Don't give me that crap. None of those things CHEATED THE GAME. Newsflash: star athletes in all sports since the dawn of sports have been a**holes. They cheat on their wives, they gamble and they do drugs. That doesn't mean that they cheated the games they participated in. Steroids helped players cheat the very game they supposedly loved and destroyed the integrity of an entire chapter of baseball's history. Comparing that to an alcoholic (which in most cases, would hurt their ability to perform) is belittling everyone's intelligence.

I expect better arguments from a poster like you.

You're the one that brought up intergrity, I was merely addressing that point. I just don't see how steroids are any different than taking speed in order to get through a season. Either way, you're defying nature, are you not? But no one looks at the 60's and 70's as a dark period in the game.

I realize that cheating didn't start w steroids it just galvanized how bad they were for the game. To have the records fall the way they did with steroids injected into the game (pun intended), showed that they made all other issues in the game pale in comparison. The game was a joke at the height of the steroid era. Take the names and years away from the stats and put them up against historical numbers and it will be clear how clearly baseball had gone out of control. Baseball would have come back without a doubt. Baseball is Americas game, soccer not so much.

Agreed in large part, I guess I just don't see steroids as bad for the game as some other things- namely the greed that brought about the lockout that nearly lost those very fans. In a vacuum, yes I think steroids are a bad thing, but as for the "image" of the game, I just don't think it did as much damage to the game as some people would like to claim. I mean, people are still lining up to get in at Yankees stadium, no?

 

[woolybug25]

Not casting a light on any person here, and generalizations are harsh, but yeah... I guess that's just where I am with cfb right now... no one cares about academics but the schools that can't rep anything else. Also, it should be noted that ND has not "won the right way" lately... part of that equation is winning.

Well... I guess Whiskey and I must be imbeciles then. We both have a lot of pride that Notre Dame isn't just some run of the mill football factory. We are proud that our university stands for something that will last a lot longer than two National titles riddled with scandal.

We are a historic program with more titles than anyone (yes... even Bama), but that is not what sets us apart. What does is our ability to look a parent in their face and tell them that their child's college experience will make them a better human being. Any glory on the football field will only be a capstone to an amazing experience that will transform them into an amazing adult filled with morality and ethics. We can promise a young man that we will win titles with integrity, not by abusing the system. That is what separates adults in the real world too. When you leave college, you will have to learn that there are people that do things with integrity and those that don't. Notre Dame instills that moral fiber into our young men. The SEC simply does not...

If those things aren't important to you... then I really can't grasp why you root for Notre Dame in the first place.

 

[woolybug25]

You're the one that brought up intergrity, I was merely addressing that point. I just don't see how steroids are any different than taking speed in order to get through a season. Either way, you're defying nature, are you not? But no one looks at the 60's and 70's as a dark period in the game.

We are talking about the integrity of the game. How does someone's personal downfalls harm the integrity of the game? Steroids directly effected the product on the field, just like oversigning does in college football.

Your whole argument is just a poor attempt at spinning a poorly thought out original argument.

 

[ACamp1900]

Well... I guess Whiskey and I must be imbeciles then. We both have a lot of pride that Notre Dame isn't just some run of the mill football factory. We are proud that our university stands for something that will last a lot longer than two National titles riddled with scandal.

We are a historic program with more titles than anyone (yes... even Bama), but that is not what sets us apart. What does is our ability to look a parent in their face and tell them that their child's college experience will make them a better human being. Any glory on the football field will only be a capstone to an amazing experience that will transform them into an amazing adult filled with morality and ethics. We can promise a young man that we will win titles with integrity, not by abusing the system. That is what separates adults in the real world too. When you leave college, you will have to learn that there are people that do things with integrity and those that don't. Notre Dame instills that moral fiber into our young men. The SEC simply does not...

If those things aren't important to you... then I really can't grasp why you root for Notre Dame in the first place.

Are you using "you" directly at me??? If so you need to re-read my post... I agree with everything you just said and already stated so...

whatever... maybe you nailed the first part.

 

[woolybug25]

Are you using "you" directly at me??? If so you need to re-read my post... I agree with everything you just said and already stated so...

whatever... maybe you nailed the first part.

haha.... no.... I am aware that you are out of college. Sorry if that sounded like it was directed to you personally...


The "Royal You"...

 

[ACamp1900]

gotcha.

 

[ThePiombino]

We are talking about the integrity of the game. How does someone's personal downfalls harm the integrity of the game? Steroids directly effected the product on the field, just like oversigning does in college football.

Your whole argument is just a poor attempt at spinning a poorly thought out original argument.

So based on your logic, since integrity only applies to what happens on the field, Notre Dame should have no qualms with filling their roster with football-first kids who don't care at all about academics. We probably also shouldn't care about our players being arrested for DUIs, under-age drinking, assault, etc. None of that matters to the integrity of ND because it didn't happen on the field. Gotcha.

 

[woolybug25]

So based on your logic, since integrity only applies to what happens on the field, Notre Dame should have no qualms with filling their roster with football-first kids who don't care at all about academics. We probably also shouldn't care about our players being arrested for DUIs, under-age drinking, assault, etc. None of that matters to the integrity of ND because it didn't happen on the field. Gotcha.

That's not what I am saying at all. Notre Dame stands for on the field and off the field excellence. MLB, NFL, NBA, etc are professional sports and are not premier Catholic institutions preaching morality. They are apples and oranges. The only thing that is similar between steroids in MLB and rampant cheating in college football is that they both are cheating the game. That is the argument, and it's pretty simple at that. I don't think that you are misunderstanding me either. I think you are just trying to spin the conversation.

 

[ThePiombino]

That's not what I am saying at all. Notre Dame stands for on the field and off the field excellence. MLB, NFL, NBA, etc are professional sports and are not premier Catholic institutions preaching morality. They are apples and oranges. The only thing that is similar between steroids in MLB and rampant cheating in college football is that they both are cheating the game. That is the argument, and it's pretty simple at that. I don't think that you are misunderstanding me either. I think you are just trying to spin the conversation.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but try not to confuse "spinning a conversation" with not agreeing with you an presenting an opposing argument.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but try not to confuse "spinning a conversation" with not agreeing with you an presenting an opposing argument.

Whatever make you sleep good at night, homie.

 

[Redbar]

Yeah, the only fans in the country that wouldn't take that are delusional ND fans who pretend they wouldn't take two National Titles and a bit of scandal...

I agree... sort of anyway, not sure if this will eventually level out... but I do believe most fans/alums on this board, or anywhere, would sing a different tune if we won two or more titles under BK then got hit for something... no?

I honestly believe many stand on the whole "we do it the right way" thing because that's all there is to stand on these days... that's all. Give the same crowd a national title to stand on and the way won't matter anymore, at least for most.

I teach college courses for a living... and that created the reason I personally held to ND as an adult... the standards. I do honestly believe I am rare in any fanbase... fans want wins, period... and I do believe ND's base is no different. If BK wins titles then leaves in scandal a large portion of this base, fan and alum alike, will be like any other in the country and excuse it... I believe that. If someone disagrees then that's your right.

Not casting a light on any person here, and generalizations are harsh, but yeah... I guess that's just where I am with cfb right now. No one cares about academics but the schools that can't rep anything else. Also, it should be noted that ND has not "won the right way" lately... part of that equation is winning.

I'm afraid all of these generalizations say more about you and less about these "delusional Notre Dame fans" you refer to. Some of us still believe the ends don't justify the means.

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm afraid all of these generalizations say more about you and less about these "delusional Notre Dame fans" you refer to. Some of us still believe the ends don't justify the means.

sorry but the majority of any base wouldn't care if the cost of winning titles was dropping academic standards a bit... if you think otherwise, then yeah, delusional is an appropriate word.

 

[dshans]

... I honestly believe many stand on the whole "we do it the right way" thing because that's all there is to stand on these days... that's all. Give the same crowd a national title to stand on and the way won't matter anymore, at least for most.

As an alum, I call "bullshit." I've met a number of people and have a number of friends who "hate" Irish football. All admire, though, the way the University comports itself in pursuit of excellence.

I, for one, would have it no other way.

 

[ACamp1900]

As an alum, I call "bullshit." I've met a number of people and have a number of friends who "hate" Irish football. All admire, though, the way the University comports itself in pursuit of excellence.

I, for one, would have it no other way.

So you are saying if BK gets hit with an infraction AFTER winning a title the average ND guy would turn his back on the program???? Well then good for you... I totally disagree... clearly.

The average fan of just about any cfb program couldn't care less about grad rates or academic standards... they care about wins. I work in higher education and I'm the only person I have met in a LONG TIME, ND fans included, who even know the basics on which programs are clean and otherwise...

Sometimes I feel this board lives in a bubble... and I know I am going against the grain... but that's my thoughts on it...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Sometimes I feel this board lives in a bubble... and I know I am going against the grain... but that's my thoughts on it...

Start a new thread with a poll. I'd be interested to see the results for our board members.

Wouldn't prove anything, of course, since the sample size is far too small and probably isn't representative, but still worth doing I think.

 

[ACamp1900]

Start a new thread with a poll. I'd be interested to see the results for our board members.

Wouldn't prove anything, of course, since the sample size is far too small and probably isn't representative, but still worth doing I think.

Well let's not slant the wording and go for it...

Which would you prefer....

-ND wins a National Title but has a scandal or two along the way
-ND never wins a title again but never relicves the "Tarnished Dome" days


Could be interesting I guess.

 

[Redbar]

sorry but the majority of any base wouldn't care if the cost of winning titles was dropping academic standards a bit... if you think otherwise, then yeah, delusional is an appropriate word.

So "delusional" in your world is defined as not agreeing with you,and what you call the majority of a fan base.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Well let's not slant the wording and go for it...

Which would you prefer....

-ND wins a National Title but has a scandal or two along the way
-ND never wins a title again but never relicves the "Tarnished Dome" days

Could be interesting I guess.

What kind of scandals are we talking about? Boosters handing out illegal benefits or the school dropping academic standards to the point that our GSR plummets?

And even if we never win a title, what kind of team are we? Regular 9-10 win seasons with solid bowl appearances, or 7-8 win seasons with weak bowl appearances?

Kind of hard to choose based on those descriptions.

 

[ACamp1900]

So "delusional" in your world is defined as not agreeing with you,and what you call the majority of a fan base.

no, delusional would be defined as arguing against something that is clearly observable...

Above all, the average fan cares about winning... that's the stance you called me out for.

Give someone a team he/she really cares for and let that team win some big games, then hit them with scandal and that fan will try to rationalize and deflect... that is some crazy generalization??

We have seen this with every major base in the country already,... INCLUDING OURS.

 

[koonja]

.

 

[ACamp1900]

You know what, let me clarify everything as easily as possible...

I guess my point is this... while ND is special, the fan base is not... it's just a fan base...

 

[Redbar]

So you are saying if BK gets hit with an infraction AFTER winning a title the average ND guy would turn his back on the program???? Well then good for you... I totally disagree... clearly.

The average fan of just about any cfb program couldn't care less about grad rates or academic standards... they care about wins. I work in higher education and I'm the only person I have met in a LONG TIME, ND fans included, who even know the basics on which programs are clean and otherwise...

Sometimes I feel this board lives in a bubble... and I know I am going against the grain... but that's my thoughts on it...

I frequently find your logic compelling, tonight not so much... I find it more insulting.

 

[Redbar]

You know what, let me clarify everything as easily as possible...

I guess my point is this... while ND is special, the fan base is not... it's just a fan base...

You are right some of us are not so special. Which is why I said your comments speak more to you than any one else that you chose to call delusional.

 

[ACamp1900]

I frequently find your logic compelling, tonight not so much... I find it more insulting.

I am truly sorry....

???

 

[koonja]

I'm not an alum, but I'm not a fair weather fan, either. I can never speak on behalf of an alum, and I respect the hell out of their opinion on the matter, because they know what 'Notre Dame' means more than anyone else. Would dropping the academic standards tarnish a national championship? Maybe a little, but it's a hell of a lot better than being told year after year how irrelevant we are. Just my two cents.