Who do you want to replace Brian Kelly?

[ACamp1900]

The right coach at the right time can win big at ND, it's just a matter of, ' will those stars ever align again?" I think it's fair to assume the stars nearly aligned with Urban and it just didn't happen... Notre Dame can't afford a miss like that moving forward.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

For this thing to get back on track, ND needs to find the Mike Sanford on the defensive side of the ball. They need a guy who is young, bright, players like, and sees ND as a huge upgrade on his resume.

Anyone who thinks well established, high profile DC's are bolting the SEC, Ohio St, Texas, Clemson or USC for the DC job at ND is just a delusional ND fan.

 

[NDty9]

For this thing to get back on track, ND needs to find the Mike Sanford on the defensive side of the ball. They need a guy who is young, bright, players like, and sees ND as a huge upgrade on his resume.

Anyone who thinks well established, high profile DC's are bolting the SEC, Ohio St, Texas, Clemson or USC for the DC job at ND is just a delusional ND fan.

This! (unfortunately) ...... I would NOT expect any BIG NAME as our next DC. A young stud however, would be GREAT (and realistic)

 

[IrishLax]

First, ND has had trouble getting elite DC's for a long time. Minter, Corwin Brown, and Tenuta were certainly not elite. Diaco had one great year with a senior defense and a schedule that had no good offenses, and BVG was a disaster.

Like I said, antiquated. Those Weis guys are all a decade out of date. The second part of this isn't even relevant to what we're talking about. It doesn't matter what results BVg got, what we're talking about is the HIRING of someone who is ostensibly a first choice, elite DC commanding top money. Like you can't look at Monte Kiffin and Wilcox at USC and say "they had bad results" as some sort of evidence that USC didn't get guys they thought during hiring were great.

"That guy" does exist in the world of college football. If the DC job at ND is as glorious as you say it is, guys like Chavis, Venables, Durkin, Mike Stoops, Grantham, Smart, Bedford, Steele, Chizik, Aranda, etc. would be jumping up and down saying, "I want that job!", but that doesn't happen.

Lol what on earth are you talking about? No one is talking about getting a guy already entrenched at a top program making 1 mil+ and convincing him to come here for comparable pay. Nobody does that, for the same reason you don't see HCs from Tier 1 programs move sideways for no reason. We're talking about DCs who'd potentially be on the market because of circumstances (Mason, Aranda) or up jumping a guy like Michigan did last year with the coach from BC.

ND has to recruit nationally for two reasons: they aren't in a talent rich location, and they can only recruit a small portion of top level talent.

Ok?

 

[Irish#1]

First, ND has had trouble getting elite DC's for a long time. Minter, Corwin Brown, and Tenuta were certainly not elite. Diaco had one great year with a senior defense and a schedule that had no good offenses, and BVG was a disaster.

"That guy" does exist in the world of college football. If the DC job at ND is as glorious as you say it is, guys like Chavis, Venables, Durkin, Mike Stoops, Grantham, Smart, Bedford, Steele, Chizik, Aranda, etc. would be jumping up and down saying, "I want that job!", but that doesn't happen.

ND has to recruit nationally for two reasons: they aren't in a talent rich location, and they can only recruit a small portion of top level talent.

Minter and Tenuta had reputations of being very good DC's before coming to ND. 247 has a great article. Talks about not needing to find that big name guy, but more like the guy at WF who has little talent to work with, but is getting very good results. The equation is little talent with very good results would turn into outstanding results given very good talent to work with.

 

[IrishLax]

For this thing to get back on track, ND needs to find the Mike Sanford on the defensive side of the ball. They need a guy who is young, bright, players like, and sees ND as a huge upgrade on his resume.

Anyone who thinks well established, high profile DC's are bolting the SEC, Ohio St, Texas, Clemson or USC for the DC job at ND is just a delusional ND fan.

Sorry, besides the Fickell talk from another site (which seems silly), who is taking about that? Who is saying we're going to poach Chavis or Pruitt or the like?

People talk about Aranda because he might be on market, same thing with Mason. Mike Tressel would be taking a promotion and double his pay. Wilcox would also be taking a huge raise to BVG money.

It's like you've constructed this strange straw man that "ND can't get coaches" and are using certain people/schools people aren't really taking about to justify it.

Also, the defensive "Sanford" don't really exist. Young OCs exist because they're innivative young minds, whereas most DCs around the country are much older because people get elevated to that position more slowly.

 

[IrishLax]

Minter and Tenuta had reputations of being very good DC's before coming to ND. 247 has a great article. Talks about not needing to find that big name guy, but more like the guy at WF who has little talent to work with, but is getting very good results. The equation is little talent with very good results would turn into outstanding results given very good talent to work with.

Agree with this, why I think guys from MSU tree would be a good fit. Aranda and Mason also fit the mold from previous stops.

 

[Meatloaf]

https://m.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/54x990/an_analysis_of_brian_kelly_as_a_coach/

#FireKelly

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Like I said, antiquated. Those Weis guys are all a decade out of date. The second part of this isn't even relevant to what we're talking about. It doesn't matter what results BVg got, what we're talking about is the HIRING of someone who is ostensibly a first choice, elite DC commanding top money. Like you can't look at Monte Kiffin and Wilcox at USC and say "they had bad results" as some sort of evidence that USC didn't get guys they thought during hiring were great.



Lol what on earth are you talking about? No one is talking about getting a guy already entrenched at a top program making 1 mil+ and convincing him to come here for comparable pay. Nobody does that, for the same reason you don't see HCs from Tier 1 programs move sideways for no reason. We're talking about DCs who'd potentially be on the market because of circumstances (Mason, Aranda) or up jumping a guy like Michigan did last year with the coach from BC.



Ok?

You argued that elite DC's would want the ND DC job. I say ND for the DC job ranks somewhere between 15-25 in the nation.

We agree that ND needs an up and comer on the defensive side of the ball, and I still contend it's been a LONG time since ND has had an elite DC.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Sorry, besides the Fickell talk from another site (which seems silly), who is taking about that? Who is saying we're going to poach Chavis or Pruitt or the like?

People talk about Aranda because he might be on market, same thing with Mason. Mike Tressel would be taking a promotion and double his pay. Wilcox would also be taking a huge raise to BVG money.

It's like you've constructed this strange straw man that "ND can't get coaches" and are using certain people/schools people aren't really taking about to justify it.

Also, the defensive "Sanford" don't really exist. Young OCs exist because they're innivative young minds, whereas most DCs around the country are much older because people get elevated to that position more slowly.

Not sure about Mason. No way Aranda is leaving LSU if he is asked to stay there by the new coach. Tressel would be viable. Wilcox is a big question mark. I constructed no straw man. My original point was that seasoned, proven, elite DC's do NOT see the ND job the way ND fans see the ND job. That's all.

 

[IrishLax]

You argued that elite DC's would want the ND DC job. I say ND for the DC job ranks somewhere between 15-25 in the nation.

We agree that ND needs an up and comer on the defensive side of the ball, and I still contend it's been a LONG time since ND has had an elite DC.

Not sure about Mason. No way Aranda is leaving LSU if he is asked to stay there by the new coach. Tressel would be viable. Wilcox is a big question mark. I constructed no straw man. My original point was that seasoned, proven, elite DC's do NOT see the ND job the way ND fans see the ND job. That's all.

That's fair, but with guys like Aranda it's far from a sure thing he'll even want to stick around and find out. Notre Dame is hiring NOW and he's only been at LSU for less than a year. He's making a ton of money there, and I don't know what his buyout clause is like, but if we make an equivocal or better deal... he'd have to think hard about taking it rather than hoping that Herman or whoever doesn't have "their guy" they want to bring in. Or maybe he's OK taking the buyout money and waiting? He's certainly got options.

Where we quibble is over "seasoned, proven, elite"... Aranda, Mason, Wilcox, Pelini, etc. all fit that bill. No we aren't going to get an entrenched guy at a Tier 1 program... but we're operating in the same vein as LSU or Michigan when they went out and got Aranda/Brown from Tier 2/3 programs Wisconsin/Boston College by offering big raises. So my greater point is that we're playing on the same level as other Tier 1 schools, not a step behind. There's nothing about LSU that makes them better suited to grab a DC than Notre Dame when we're paying $1.2mil/year.

IMO, the only thing that will stop us from getting an "elite" hire of one of the hottest available names on the market (whoever that may be at the time) would be Kelly settling for something "known."

 

[IrishBroker]

https://m.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/54x990/an_analysis_of_brian_kelly_as_a_coach/

#FireKelly

This is money.

I've been saying this for a while in my circle of friends...we don't beat the great teams, and are about 500 against good teams.

The ranking of a team when you play them, is not half as important as where they finish.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

That's fair, but with guys like Aranda it's far from a sure thing he'll even want to stick around and find out. Notre Dame is hiring NOW and he's only been at LSU for less than a year. He's making a ton of money there, and I don't know what his buyout clause is like, but if we make an equivocal or better deal... he'd have to think hard about taking it rather than hoping that Herman or whoever doesn't have "their guy" they want to bring in. Or maybe he's OK taking the buyout money and waiting? He's certainly got options.

Where we quibble is over "seasoned, proven, elite"... Aranda, Mason, Wilcox, Pelini, etc. all fit that bill. No we aren't going to get an entrenched guy at a Tier 1 program... but we're operating in the same vein as LSU or Michigan when they went out and got Aranda/Brown from Tier 2/3 programs Wisconsin/Boston College by offering big raises. So my greater point is that we're playing on the same level as other Tier 1 schools, not a step behind. There's nothing about LSU that makes them better suited to grab a DC than Notre Dame when we're paying $1.2mil/year.

IMO, the only thing that will stop us from getting an "elite" hire of one of the hottest available names on the market (whoever that may be at the time) would be Kelly settling for something "known."

If you ask the top 25 DC's in the country whether they'd take LSU or ND (if the money were the same), they'd all take LSU. LSU has more access to more talent, plain and simple. Louisiana has talent and they're sandwiched between Texas and Florida, two of the top 5 states producing D1 talent every year. With no academic restrictions. Signed, sealed, delivered.

 

[IrishLax]

If you ask the top 25 DC's in the country whether they'd take LSU or ND (if the money were the same), they'd all take LSU. LSU has more access to more talent, plain and simple. Louisiana has talent and they're sandwiched between Texas and Florida, two of the top 5 states producing D1 talent every year. With no academic restrictions. Signed, sealed, delivered.

No, they wouldn't.

I'm honestly curious... where do you get this stuff? Do you talk to coaches? Have coaches in your family or something? Maybe there's something I'm not appreciating.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of services that poll coaches every year on what are the most "desirable" jobs... LSU does not squarely beat ND on these lists. There's a weird myth that every coach wants to be in the SEC "with no recruiting restrictions" or whatever. The truth is that the main reasons top coaches go to the SEC is top money and everything else is undesirable (unless you're at Alabama). It's murders row with no patience for underperformance and everyone has to go through the Crimson Tide. When you look at the history of hires in that conference and see who is willing to take those jobs for elite money, there's a very common thread with everyone but Bielema who had unique circumstances. Many of those guys make overtures every year to other programs (like USC last year, and Michigan before Harbaugh got the job) begging to be taken away from the SEC.

The truth is, most coaches if the money and all other factors were the same would prefer a place like Stanford over all else. No insane fans, top of the competition heap, good kids, good location, etc. Notice how little staff turnover they have year after year compared to a lot of other programs, despite noncompetitive pay.

ND's biggest drawback is location, but besides that it's extremely desirable... especially for coordinators because we've been proven to put assistants in HC gigs if they perform like few programs have, mainly thanks to exposure. We aren't going to poach someone who is entrenched or under contract for top money, but if a guy like Don Brown at Boston College last year is deciding between Notre Dame and Auburn or Notre Dame and Tennessee it's insane to think it's a guarantee he'd pick the SEC school assuming everything else is equal.

 

[tussin]

ND's biggest drawback is location, but besides that it's extremely desirable... especially for coordinators because we've been proven to put assistants in HC gigs if they perform like few programs have, mainly thanks to exposure. We aren't going to poach someone who is entrenched or under contract for top money, but if a guy like Don Brown at Boston College last year is deciding between Notre Dame and Auburn or Notre Dame and Tennessee it's insane to think it's a guarantee he'd pick the SEC school assuming everything else is equal.

When you say location, do you mean 1) proximity to talented recruits or 2) general quality of life?

Regarding 1, while that may be true, I think OSU, Michigan, and even ND to an extent have all proven that you can recruit elite classes to the area with the right staff and recruiters in place.

On 2, I guess it's to each their own. I think there is something to be said for lower cost of living. BVG's salary is a king's ransom in SB. Also, some people genuinely prefer seasonal weather. I'm a Northeast kid and I thought the Southern summers were AWFUL, and I was only living in Charlotte.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

These threads are stupid...

Kelly and BVG have not be fired or resigned. Why have all this dumb conversation.

This is all in italics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

No, they wouldn't.

I'm honestly curious... where do you get this stuff? Do you talk to coaches? Have coaches in your family or something? Maybe there's something I'm not appreciating.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of services that poll coaches every year on what are the most "desirable" jobs... LSU does not squarely beat ND on these lists. There's a weird myth that every coach wants to be in the SEC "with no recruiting restrictions" or whatever. The truth is that the main reasons top coaches go to the SEC is top money and everything else is undesirable (unless you're at Alabama). It's murders row with no patience for underperformance and everyone has to go through the Crimson Tide. When you look at the history of hires in that conference and see who is willing to take those jobs for elite money, there's a very common thread with everyone but Bielema who had unique circumstances. Many of those guys make overtures every year to other programs (like USC last year, and Michigan before Harbaugh got the job) begging to be taken away from the SEC.

The truth is, most coaches if the money and all other factors were the same would prefer a place like Stanford over all else. No insane fans, top of the competition heap, good kids, good location, etc. Notice how little staff turnover they have year after year compared to a lot of other programs, despite noncompetitive pay.

ND's biggest drawback is location, but besides that it's extremely desirable... especially for coordinators because we've been proven to put assistants in HC gigs if they perform like few programs have, mainly thanks to exposure. We aren't going to poach someone who is entrenched or under contract for top money, but if a guy like Don Brown at Boston College last year is deciding between Notre Dame and Auburn or Notre Dame and Tennessee it's insane to think it's a guarantee he'd pick the SEC school assuming everything else is equal.

To say all this would be working under the assumption that ND recruits like everyone else. They don't and they can't. Pretending they can is nuts. ND has two big drawbacks: academic requirements and, as you said, location.

There are plenty of schools (from a DC perspective) that offer better situations for both.

 

[IrishLax]

To say all this would be working under the assumption that ND recruits like everyone else. They don't and they can't. Pretending they can is nuts. ND has two big drawbacks: academic requirements and, as you said, location.

There are plenty of schools (from a DC perspective) that offer better situations for both.

People really don't care too much about academic restrictions at this point. They used to, because the restrictions used to be seriously limiting. ND is currently able to take kids with 19ish on their ACT and sub-1000 on their SAT. Not lots of kids like that, but for difference makers absolutely. That's the vast majority of prospects, and the kids with worse than that weren't coming to ND anyways. There aren't Carson Palmer situations anymore.

 

[NDRock]

People really don't care too much about academic restrictions at this point. They used to, because the restrictions used to be seriously limiting. ND is currently able to take kids with 19ish on their ACT and sub-1000 on their SAT. Not lots of kids like that, but for difference makers absolutely. That's the vast majority of prospects, and the kids with worse than that weren't coming to ND anyways. There aren't Carson Palmer situations anymore.

I think another thing that is attractive to some coaches is the fact that ND isn't as "slimy" as other big-time programs. I'm sure there are coaches who don't really enjoy doing what has to be done at those programs. I'm sure working at the Stanfords and Notre Dames of college football is more pleasant in a lot of ways.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

People really don't care too much about academic restrictions at this point. They used to, because the restrictions used to be seriously limiting. ND is currently able to take kids with 19ish on their ACT and sub-1000 on their SAT. Not lots of kids like that, but for difference makers absolutely. That's the vast majority of prospects, and the kids with worse than that weren't coming to ND anyways. There aren't Carson Palmer situations anymore.

ND has loosened the belt, but ND is not and won't be Bama, FSU, LSU, USC, Texas. Look at who Bama and USC have signed on defense in the past 5 years and see how many even had offers from ND. Then see if those with offers even had ND in their top 5. That'll tell the story.

 

[stlnd01]

I'm with Lax. I don't think we can just whip out the checkbook and hire an "elite, proven" DC away from a top 10-15 program. Because, at some point, the money is all the same and people - at least head coaches or coordinators - don't really make that kind of lateral move very often.
But there is absolutely no reason we can't go out and get a good, young DC from a second-tier P5 program like Wisconsin or Pitt or BC who sees Notre Dame as a great opportunity to launch himself to a head coaching gig in three years. None at all.
That's what Sanford's doing. That's what Diaco did. And that's what we should be looking for.

 

[stlnd01]

ND has loosened the belt, but ND is not and won't be Bama, FSU, LSU, USC, Texas. Look at who Bama and USC have signed on defense in the past 5 years and see how many even had offers from ND. Then see if those with offers even had ND in their top 5. That'll tell the story.

I dunno. I don't really have time for all that but it seems like we compete with USC, FSU and Texas, at least, on a lot of recruits. I don't know about the Deep South schools, but we certainly go head-to-head with OSU and Michigan plenty, too. We even win some.

 

[ThePiombino]

For this thing to get back on track, ND needs to find the Mike Sanford on the defensive side of the ball. They need a guy who is young, bright, players like, and sees ND as a huge upgrade on his resume.

Anyone who thinks well established, high profile DC's are bolting the SEC, Ohio St, Texas, Clemson or USC for the DC job at ND is just a delusional ND fan.

You mean a blossoming defensive genius who doesn't get to call his own game, nor does he get luxury of being sole DC? Awesome, I'm sure they're all lined up around the corner for this job...

 

[NDgradstudent]

I decided to look at the position rankings on 247 of our offered players in the 2015 cycle, and then compare them with Alabama's. This is in order to begin to assess the validity of claims often made by ND fans, including in this thread, about the extent to which 'academic restrictions' hinder ND football success.

I find little evidence to suggest that academic restrictions matter much. ND's offered players rank slightly lower than Alabama's. At most positions, the number of top 10 players we offered was comparable. This is particularly true among defensive players, who are often said to be less likely to qualify academically. Obviously, this is only one cycle, though.

I guess the next step will be to extend this to a comparison with other programs and additional recruiting cycles. If academic restrictions were a pervasive problem for ND, however, I think we would expect to see a much larger gap even in this limited study than I actually found. Now of course it is true that we didn't sign nearly as many of the top 10 recruits that we offered as Bama did, but that is not the fault of admissions.

Key:
T10offers = number of top 10 ranked players at that position who were offered
Totoffers = total number of players at that position who were offered
T10as%oftot = top 10 players offered as a percent of the total players offered at that position

 

[IrishLax]

I decided to look at the position rankings on 247 of our offered players in the 2015 cycle, and then compare them with Alabama's. This is in order to begin to assess the validity of claims often made by ND fans, including in this thread, about the extent to which 'academic restrictions' hinder ND football success.

I find little evidence to suggest that academic restrictions matter much. ND's offered players rank slightly lower than Alabama's. At most positions, the number of top 10 players we offered was comparable. This is particularly true among defensive players, who are often said to be less likely to qualify academically. Obviously, this is only one cycle, though.

I guess the next step will be to extend this to a comparison with other programs and additional recruiting cycles. If academic restrictions were a pervasive problem for ND, however, I think we would expect to see a much larger gap even in this limited study than I actually found. Now of course it is true that we didn't sign nearly as many of the top 10 recruits that we offered as Bama did, but that is not the fault of admissions.

Key:
T10offers = number of top 10 ranked players at that position who were offered
Totoffers = total number of players at that position who were offered
T10as%oftot = top 10 players offered as a percent of the total players offered at that position

I don't know how much time you have, but I'd actually be really interested if you could take this to the next level of comparative analysis and include some additional factors.

 

[Irish#1]

Not sure about Mason. No way Aranda is leaving LSU if he is asked to stay there by the new coach. Tressel would be viable. Wilcox is a big question mark. I constructed no straw man. My original point was that seasoned, proven, elite DC's do NOT see the ND job the way ND fans see the ND job. That's all.

Outside of being in the SEC, what makes the LSU job more attractive? If ND is paying the same or more, I would think ND is at least as attractive if not more. The vast majority of coaches are looking to become HC's at some point. Being on TV every weekend and in prime time a lot puts your name out there a lot more than playing in the SEC. My wife isn't a big football fan, but she sure knows who BVG is.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Outside of being in the SEC, what makes the LSU job more attractive? If ND is paying the same or more, I would think ND is at least as attractive if not more. The vast majority of coaches are looking to become HC's at some point. Being on TV every weekend and in prime time a lot puts your name out there a lot more than playing in the SEC. My wife isn't a big football fan, but she sure knows who BVG is.

More access to more talent in a warm climate with easy street academics.

 

[Irish#1]

More access to more talent in a warm climate with easy street academics.

It's already proven that ND can attract top talent. Easy academics are probably the kids that wouldn't qualify at ND anyway.

Personally I think the warm climate excuse is BS, hyped by the media over the years. How do you explain ND, OSU or Michigan being able to recruit? How do the northern schools that are traditional basketball powers able to attract talent to the cold climate?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It's already proven that ND can attract top talent. Easy academics are probably the kids that wouldn't qualify at ND anyway.

Personally I think the warm climate excuse is BS, hyped by the media over the years. How do you explain ND, OSU or Michigan being able to recruit? How do the northern schools that are traditional basketball powers able to attract talent to the cold climate?

ND can attract top talent. LSU can attract more top talent. There are dozens of kids LSU can recruit that ND can't, not the other way around.

Michigan, Ohio State, and ND will always be able to recruit due to their brands in college football. Of the 3, ND has the tightest academic requirements.

As for traditional basketball powers...they don't play outside when it's 30 degrees.

 

[ozzman]

Does anyone think that Sanford benefits the most from the BVG firing? BK has to focus on helping the defense and putting his signature on it, so maybe he gives Sanford more free rein to do what he wants?