We are slow, Longo must go?

[loomis41973]

Too bad these kids actually have to go to class and can't work out and practice 8 hours a day.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Agreed. He seems to have more of a speed based approach based on what I've seen, but I'm not sure what phase they are in when it's filmed. Oly hang partials, speed bench and squats etc. in my opinion he tries to match Kelly's preferred style of play. I said this last week, I think we have some misplaced styles this far into his tenure. Let this team play north south and blow off the ball, and let the damn athletes play fast. ND doesn't lack athletes. I'll send you a pm about one of my friends opinion is on a Cochran. This guy is one of the best strength coaches in the country (definitely NOT Cochran) and isn't a fan.

Oh yeah I'm all in on the 'inside' stuff. Hit me up.

 

[PANDFAN]

wiltfong posted -------"the #1 priority in the offseason is strength and conditioning program really be evaluated, talked about, perhaps a change be made, maybe move Longo into a different role, I don't know but it's the most important thing that needs to be looked at"

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Koon's reaction:

 

[koonja]

I hope that is coming from talk on campus, and not just Wilfong's observation and opinion. It's been obvious since 2013 our S/C program sucks compared to other top programs.

So depending on where that comment comes from, my reaction is either 'hell yes', or 'duh'.

 

[Meatloaf]

wiltfong posted -------"the #1 priority in the offseason is strength and conditioning program really be evaluated, talked about, perhaps a change be made, maybe move Longo into a different role, I don't know but it's the most important thing that needs to be looked at"

Mike Frank has said more or less the same thing. When different sources are arriving at the same conclusion, it's pretty clear that something is seriously wrong. If Kelly somehow retains Longo in his current role, I may cry tears of rage.

 

[Irish#1]

wiltfong posted -------"the #1 priority in the offseason is strength and conditioning program really be evaluated, talked about, perhaps a change be made, maybe move Longo into a different role, I don't know but it's the most important thing that needs to be looked at"

Koon's tinkling in his pants right now.

 

[Dizzyphil]

wiltfong posted -------"the #1 priority in the offseason is strength and conditioning program really be evaluated, talked about, perhaps a change be made, maybe move Longo into a different role, I don't know but it's the most important thing that needs to be looked at"

Question - is the current (past few years) draft-stock in linemen due to Hiestand, Longo, Elston or pure talent of the kids?

 

[PANDFAN]

Question - is the current (past few years) draft-stock in linemen due to Hiestand, Longo, Elston or pure talent of the kids?

stanley-always was regarded as a very Athletic and agile big guy---could have played div 1 basketball---KNOCK on him was he WASN'T physical enough

Day-he was a day 1 player in the rotation for us....he was a solid player but he never seemed to change in body composition while he was here--ALWAYS had a good motor and that was in high school

Tuitt-again, ALWAYS was tabbed as an athletic freak or nature due to his size/speed and had BIG time strength coming in at ND

Lynch-well athletic freak and never blossomed into the player he is now except 1st year w/ us and now w/ 49ers

zach/nick martin-def think Hiestand had a big role in this progression

fuller def said he had a hand in getting him faster so there is that but those acknowledgements seem far and few between

 

[koonja]

stanley-always was regarded as a very Athletic and agile big guy---could have played div 1 basketball---KNOCK on him was he WASN'T physical enough

Day-he was a day 1 player in the rotation for us....he was a solid player but he never seemed to change in body composition while he was here--ALWAYS had a good motor and that was in high school

Tuitt-again, ALWAYS was tabbed as an athletic freak or nature due to his size/speed and had BIG time strength coming in at ND

Lynch-well athletic freak and never blossomed into the player he is now except 1st year w/ us and now w/ 49ers

zach/nick martin-def think Hiestand had a big role in this progression

Yeah, when you have 85 college football players, some will be destined for the NFL even with a lousy S/C program. See the underlined players.

Then you have some that aren't destined for the NFL, but have the smarts, work ethic, and health to make themselves a NFL player, regardless of how lousy the S/C program is. See the bolded.

None are proof for/against a S/C program. Some are destined, and every team also has their over achievers. We should be getting a lot more Nick/Zack Martins for those bubble players that need a good S/C program to get them over the hump. I for one 100% believe our S/C program caters to getting these bubble players over the hump.

 

[Dizzyphil]

stanley-always was regarded as a very Athletic and agile big guy---could have played div 1 basketball---KNOCK on him was he WASN'T physical enough

Day-he was a day 1 player in the rotation for us....he was a solid player but he never seemed to change in body composition while he was here--ALWAYS had a good motor and that was in high school

Tuitt-again, ALWAYS was tabbed as an athletic freak or nature due to his size/speed and had BIG time strength coming in at ND

Lynch-well athletic freak and never blossomed into the player he is now except 1st year w/ us and now w/ 49ers

zach/nick martin-def think Hiestand had a big role in this progression

fuller def said he had a hand in getting him faster so there is that but those acknowledgements seem far and few between

Yeah, when you have 85 college football players, some will be destined for the NFL even with a lousy S/C program. See the underlined players.

Then you have some that aren't destined for the NFL, but have the smarts, work ethic, and health to make themselves a NFL player, regardless of how lousy the S/C program is. See the bolded.

None are proof for/against a S/C program. Some are destined, and every team also has their over achievers. We should be getting a lot more Nick/Zack Martins for those bubble players that need a good S/C program to get them over the hump. I for one 100% believe our S/C program caters to getting these bubble players over the hump.

I get what both of you are saying - really do. But, these linemen are going high in the draft.... not last round, last pick... we are talking 1st and 2nd round linemen.... and are starting. So, something/someone is producing.

 

[PANDFAN]

I get what both of you are saying - really do. But, these linemen are going high in the draft.... not last round, last pick... we are talking 1st and 2nd round linemen.... and are starting. So, something/someone is producing.

stanley-4*
tuitt-5*
lynch-5*
zack-4*
nick martin-3* BUT has credited HH
Day-4*

Now when fuller 3* changes into a 1st rounder then that is impressive but again this is speed

 

[ThePiombino]

Hoping that the BVG experiment has changed BK's tendencies in terms of staff loyalty. My concern is that it will be a 50/50 decision and Longo will stay, but not because of his merit, but because of his connection to BK. Not wishing him to be fired, unless he deserves it, and if he does I'm hoping BK has the fortitude to do it. Friendships be damned

 

[EddytoNow]

My problem with Longo and the S & C program is related to the addition of weight at the expense of speed and quickness, particularly at the defensive end position. Longo (or Kelly) likes to add too much weight to these players, and they seem to be chasing, but never catching, the opponent's quarterback. Why does Notre Dame need a 325 pound defensive end when NFL teams get by very well with defensive ends in the 285 to 290 range? My memory may be failing, but I remember Tuitt being much quicker in his first year before he added all the weight.

 

[Rocket89]

Mike Frank has said more or less the same thing. When different sources are arriving at the same conclusion, it's pretty clear that something is seriously wrong. If Kelly somehow retains Longo in his current role, I may cry tears of rage.

I maintain this is a media dance done out of groupthink, but also to fling arrows at another target besides the head coach--or other assistants. A few thoughts:

1) Every single ND coach that has hit hard times has had his S&C coach begin to take a bunch of heat. Isn't it weird to everyone that this criticism never comes when there isn't a bunch of losing?

2) A couple of the stories I've heard wrt the current S&C program are so outrageous they can't be real. Some of it exactly mirrors the criticism under Mendoza prior to Kelly. Weird, that.

3) I still haven't seen or read any convincing of problems with S&C, let alone massive problems. Injuries are down (that was luck based anyway) and that was last year's bugaboo.

We don't even have a DC right now and the #1 priority during the off-season is S&C? There's at least half a dozen other major areas that need to be looked at ahead of that concern.

 

[IrishLax]

My problem with Longo and the S & C program is related to the addition of weight at the expense of speed and quickness, particularly at the defensive end position. Longo (or Kelly) likes to add too much weight to these players, and they seem to be chasing, but never catching, the opponent's quarterback. Why does Notre Dame need a 325 pound defensive end when NFL teams get by very well with defensive ends in the 285 to 290 range? My memory may be failing, but I remember Tuitt being much quicker in his first year before he added all the weight.

Tuitt added the weight in large part because of his hernia surgery which put him on the shelf and didn't let him work out for months.

Also, glad to see you back. Got a little worried for a sec.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I maintain this is a media dance done out of groupthink, but also to fling arrows at another target besides the head coach--or other assistants. A few thoughts:

1) Every single ND coach that has hit hard times has had his S&C coach begin to take a bunch of heat. Isn't it weird to everyone that this criticism never comes when there isn't a bunch of losing?

2) A couple of the stories I've heard wrt the current S&C program are so outrageous they can't be real. Some of it exactly mirrors the criticism under Mendoza prior to Kelly. Weird, that.

3) I still haven't seen or read any convincing of problems with S&C, let alone massive problems. Injuries are down (that was luck based anyway) and that was last year's bugaboo.

We don't even have a DC right now and the #1 priority during the off-season is S&C? There's at least half a dozen other major areas that need to be looked at ahead of that concern.

1. Because the strength coach spends above and beyond the most time with the players.

2.Longo could of actually learned something and stopped doing some particular movements that can lead to potential injuries. Also, hasn't Kelly limited some contact in practice this year? Lots of variables go to into an 'injury bug'.

3. I think you are sorely missing the importance of physical preparation and the effects it has on down the line of a competitive and competent football program.

I'm not going to pretend that I know the competitive spirit of these kids and know how they approach ' football' business. But from the TV screen and the few interviews we get week to week from my prospective, We are weak, physically and mentally. That starts in the weight room.

" Run with the lame, you'll develop a limp"

 

[Rocket89]

1. Because the strength coach spends above and beyond the most time with the players.

Is that a reason? I feel like that just confirms how much of a shot in the dark the claim is right now. "We're losing a lot of games. They spend a lot of time with Longo. Something's wrong with Longo!"

Not real compelling evidence.

2.Longo could of actually learned something and stopped doing some particular movements that can lead to potential injuries. Also, hasn't Kelly limited some contact in practice this year? Lots of variables go to into an 'injury bug'.

Yup, lots of variables. Anyone got any evidence that the injuries last year and the year before were related to S&C?

3. I think you are sorely missing the importance of physical preparation and the effects it has on down the line of a competitive and competent football program.

Actually, the opposite. I just don't see these massive problems everyone is talking about.

I'm not going to pretend that I know the competitive spirit of these kids and know how they approach ' football' business. But from the TV screen and the few interviews we get week to week from my prospective, We are weak, physically and mentally. That starts in the weight room.

The next step is "these players have no heart!"

Personally, I don't really buy into these cliches. You're bringing up player interviews in order to criticize Longo. Like I said above, not compelling evidence at all.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Is that a reason? I feel like that just confirms how much of a shot in the dark the claim is right now. "We're losing a lot of games. They spend a lot of time with Longo. Something's wrong with Longo!"

Not real compelling evidence.



Yup, lots of variables. Anyone got any evidence that the injuries last year and the year before were related to S&C?



Actually, the opposite. I just don't see these massive problems everyone is talking about.



The next step is "these players have no heart!"

Personally, I don't really buy into these cliches. You're bringing up player interviews in order to criticize Longo. Like I said above, not compelling evidence at all.

Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence that would satisfy you? I think it's fair to point out that it's a bit trite to blame stuff on S&C (or heart) but given the lack of access we have to the program I don't know if there's really a better alternative.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Really nobody's in a position to know but it's pretty obvious the formula's not working right now so why not tinker with it. Some variables are fixed (Kelly, South Bend, Academics) and others are easier to adjust (assistant coaches). Since you'll never be able to isolate the impact of any one variable on the program, there's not much else you can do except switch things out and see what happens.

 

[Rocket89]

Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence that would satisfy you? I think it's fair to point out that it's a bit trite to blame stuff on S&C (or heart) but given the lack of access we have to the program I don't know if there's really a better alternative.

Sure, there are a few areas.

1) Often running out of gas late in games

2) Getting more fatigued than usual as the season wears on

3) Consistently getting pushed around by far inferior opponents

4) Watching players switch positions & unable to shape their bodies correctly

5) Seeing the less heralded recruits struggle to develop

No, I don't think it's easy to criticize S&C even the above areas can be open to plenty of differing opinions. I'm also fine with looking for ways to improve because we should always be doing that.

But, the #1 off-season problem? No way.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Sure, there are a few areas.

1) Often running out of gas late in games

2) Getting more fatigued than usual as the season wears on

3) Consistently getting pushed around by far inferior opponents

4) Watching players switch positions & unable to shape their bodies correctly

5) Seeing the less heralded recruits struggle to develop

No, I don't think it's easy to criticize S&C even the above areas can be open to plenty of differing opinions. I'm also fine with looking for ways to improve because we should always be doing that.

But, the #1 off-season problem? No way.

"It used to be that it almost was a boutique thing if you had a strength coach, a luxury," Kelly said. "It's now become a leadership position. The strength and conditioning coordinator is on parallel with the offensive coordinator and defensive
coordinator.

No thumping music. No ESPN. No distractions or artificial stimuli. And no barking by Longo.

This runs counter to the Screaming Wildman strength coach stereotype and to the reputation of the weight room as a den of noisy intensity.

If anything, the atmosphere in the Haggar Center is almost cerebral.

No wonder assistant strength coach Jake Flint calls Longo "The Professor."

* this is a quote from a free ESPN article written in 2010.


Now This is what I'm talking about. Notre Dame's wait room is similar to a library in terms of intensity. Don't tell me that doesn't carry over to the field and everything else these players do.

 

[Rocket89]

Now This is what I'm talking about. Notre Dame's wait room is similar to a library in terms of intensity. Don't tell me that doesn't carry over to the field and everything else these players do.

Funny, the previous S&C coach was a screamer and he took even more heat than Longo.

The criticism is citing a 6-year old article and that there isn't enough (any?) loud music and screaming? That can't pass the smell test with anyone.

 

[Irish#1]

The criticism of Longo is when our lines, particularly the O-line are not dominating their opponent, especially in the run game.

 

[NorthDakota]

"It used to be that it almost was a boutique thing if you had a strength coach, a luxury," Kelly said. "It's now become a leadership position. The strength and conditioning coordinator is on parallel with the offensive coordinator and defensive
coordinator.

No thumping music. No ESPN. No distractions or artificial stimuli. And no barking by Longo.

This runs counter to the Screaming Wildman strength coach stereotype and to the reputation of the weight room as a den of noisy intensity.

If anything, the atmosphere in the Haggar Center is almost cerebral.

No wonder assistant strength coach Jake Flint calls Longo "The Professor."

* this is a quote from a free ESPN article written in 2010.


Now This is what I'm talking about. Notre Dame's wait room is similar to a library in terms of intensity. Don't tell me that doesn't carry over to the field and everything else these players do.

Just put the Rocky IV training montage music on in there. No need for screaming or anything.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Funny, the previous S&C coach was a screamer and he took even more heat than Longo.

The criticism is citing a 6-year old article and that there isn't enough (any?) loud music and screaming? That can't pass the smell test with anyone.

Screaming has zero to do with it. That's faking it. Its all about attitude and creating a competitive atmosphere. Our guys our soft. Look at them, listen to them.

Brian Kelly says Longo is as important as a D and O coordinator. Welp, BVG just went bye bye and our offense sucks in part because our O-line can't get a push. There might be kids on the team who can get jacked without some tunes, but I promise its limited.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Just put the Rocky IV training montage music on in there. No need for screaming or anything.

Exactly. I let my strongest kids have pick of what we listen to on the radio. Until I get sick of listening to the horrid stuff these kids want on. Makes my ears bleed.

So, when i'm over it I challenge them to something so I can beat them and I take control of it for a day or two. keeps it fresh and fun for the kids and also challenges them.

No Easy way out is definitely coming on...and they know it.

 

[ulukinatme]

Just put the Rocky IV training montage music on in there. No need for screaming or anything.

Ha, I approve of the above message. My senior year we almost exclusively played the Rocky series soundtrack every day lifting. It was the CD that everything from "Eye of the Tiger" to "Gonna Fly Now" and the Rocky IV stuff.

 

[irishtrain]

Really nobody's in a position to know but it's pretty obvious the formula's not working right now so why not tinker with it. Some variables are fixed (Kelly, South Bend, Academics) and others are easier to adjust (assistant coaches). Since you'll never be able to isolate the impact of any one variable on the program, there's not much else you can do except switch things out and see what happens.

I agree about the fixed variables at ND but let this sink in "these guys are soft"-who's fault it is-- it is not for me to know but lastly they are soft. Beating a Navy team has nothing to do with scheme and all to do with out Navying Navy. Holtz would have just let them rough out a Navy team rather than let Navy play a perfect game. Every game I watch the other team seems more motivated, more intense, more edgy, 'in your face Notre Dame'. You cant play this schedule and be Notre Dame unless you are tougher than the other guy-we are not. Whether its the culture or the type of guy Notre Dame appears to me to be a soft football team. I'd like to see a reporter covering the program ask Kelly just this question-not do you think the team is soft but 'why' is this team soft. SOFT.

 

[Luckylucci]

OSU looks soft, they just gave up a 3rd and short to a shitty MSU team, then a TD. They should fire their S&C staff. If it were my team I'd ave them screaming lyrics to songs to make them better.