USC Post Game Thread

[ickythump1225]

- No turnovers from Kizer. Crazy how much better he is as a RS frosh than Golson was.

Well Kizer is bigger and more physically gifted. Also, I would say he's less of a headcase than Golson and does better under pressure. Those two things put together are why he (I believe) was the more highly ranked and recruited player coming out of HS. Kizer was a 4* and Golson a 3* correct?

- Rush defense was overall good enough. Joe Schmidt was again bad.

I hate beating up on Schmidt but he is just not a kid who should be getting starting time on a a team with NC aspirations. He has it all upstairs but he doesn't have the physical ability to execute when we play other top teams.

- Fuck USC.

Always.

 

[stlnd01]

Well Kizer is bigger and more physically gifted. Also, I would say he's less of a headcase than Golson and does better under pressure. Those two things put together are why he (I believe) was the more highly ranked and recruited player coming out of HS. Kizer was a 4* and Golson a 3* correct?

They were pretty comparable as recruits.
Both were 247 Composite four stars with sort of mid-level offer lists. Kizer had an Alabama offer (though they offer loads of kids and who knows if commitable) but not OSU or Michigan. LSU was the main competition for him. Golson had fewer offers but, IIRC, committed fairly early to UNC before flipping to us. He also had a higher-profile high school career.

Everett Golson Recruit Interests

DeShone Kizer Recruit Interests

Probably the biggest difference was the five or six inches in height. Kizer's definitely got a cooler head on his shoulders but not sure I'd say he's more physically gifted. They're just different is all.

 

[ickythump1225]

They were pretty comparable as recruits.
Both were 247 Composite four stars with sort of mid-level offer lists. Kizer had an Alabama offer (though they offer loads of kids and who knows if commitable) but not OSU or Michigan. LSU was the main competition for him. Golson had fewer offers but, IIRC, committed fairly early to UNC before flipping to us. He also had a higher-profile high school career.

Everett Golson Recruit Interests

DeShone Kizer Recruit Interests

Probably the biggest difference was the five or six inches in height. Kizer's definitely got a cooler head on his shoulders but not sure I'd say he's more physically gifted. They're just different is all.

Well when I said more "physically gifted" it was just an awkward way for me to reiterate Kizer's height advantage. I also think that Kizer will fill out more physically and can be kind of Big Ben-esque.

I'm going to be honest, I wasn't sure Kizer had the goods coming into this season. He seemed destined to be a career back up behind Zaire and then behind Wimbush. That being said, Kizer has impressed me big time. If he continues to progress and we get to 11 wins or more I don't think Zaire will ever see the field as a starter here again. I mean I'm not saying to just straight hand it to Kizer next year but how could Kelly go with anyone else? We'd finally have some long sought after stability at the QB position. Either way I have to Kelly a lot of credit for getting us to this situation because just 2 seasons ago our QB position was devoid of talent and depth. Andrew Hendrix had to take meaningful snaps just 2 seasons ago...let that sink in.

 

[Ignats]

Saw a lot of posts about Kizer holding the ball too long, especially when they dropped 8. You know who else had that problem when he was inexperienced? Aaron Rodgers. Kizer needs to learn both the art of extending plays with his feet and the freestyle "playground football" that happens when scrambling and trying to connect with receivers. The latter comes with chemistry with the receivers and really both develop as players get more in game experience.

Personally I am enjoying seeing a redshirt frosh QB who has had the best QBR and yards per attempt (limited sample size I know) that we've seen in the Kelly era. He has a lot of great tendencies that come naturally to him, I really look forward to seeing his progress over the next few years.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

1. We gave them the momentum with the fumble poor job by hunter.

2. Special teams other then the kick offs were very efficient. sanders is electric. Great block by Brown.

3. Kiser has the poise of the best but his play doesn't come close to matching it. He played so awesome in the first quarter and on the read option. But for someone that smart he took to many sacks.

4. I don't want to hear a single word about any other top 25 teams defense. Our defense is awful. If I had a dollar for every missed tackle I could take my I could take my wife to a nice restaurant for dinner. BVG has to go. He needs to leave.

5. Joe Schmidt is just as bad as BVG.

6.Our running game was very effective so we away from it to much. CJ & Adams should have had more carries. Man the were running the ball.

7. All the wide receivers had a good game. Brown with the big catches early. Fuller was burning their best. CRob with the great extended catch in the end zone.

8. The TEs were blocking their asses off. Nice catch bye Jones on the side line.

Mickey D's over Steak'n'Shake?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Saw a lot of posts about Kizer holding the ball too long, especially when they dropped 8. You know who else had that problem when he was inexperienced? Aaron Rodgers. Kizer needs to learn both the art of extending plays with his feet and the freestyle "playground football" that happens when scrambling and trying to connect with receivers. The latter comes with chemistry with the receivers and really both develop as players get more in game experience.

Personally I am enjoying seeing a redshirt frosh QB who has had the best QBR and yards per attempt (limited sample size I know) that we've seen in the Kelly era. He has a lot of great tendencies that come naturally to him, I really look forward to seeing his progress over the next few years.

Excellent post, reps sir!

Kizer is a bit rough but he is learning fast.

The big thing is that most of the problems with his throwing motion have been ironed out by Mike Sanford, (who has paid for his salary alone by his work with the quarterbacks.)

Some are quick to criticize Kizer for holding the ball and taking the sack. I am frustrated and 'goddamn' it too! But when I think about it I come back to :

• Kizer always keeps his eyes downfield;
• Kizer has amply demonstrated throws lately (last couple of games) that other ND first year starting quarterbacks just could not make;
• Kizer taking the sack is because he is looking, thinking, analyzing, not liking what he sees (with his experience), and trying to make the right fit;
• I truly believe he is learning so rapidly, based upon his lack of reps before he was thrown into the starters role, that he is developing mentally as well as physically that fast;
• It isn't like he hasn't faced some talented defensive backfields this year! (I am not sure he has had a 'tune-up game.'

As far as Joe Schmidt, I think the back and forth is merely a sub-conscious attempt to provide closure to, and provide perceptual organization to the Gestalt of the Notre Dame defense.

It is interesting that 'missed tackles' and the ensuing back and forth is so central to the whole Joe Schmidt conversation. Yes he misses tackles. No he is not up to the caliber of most of the rest of our front seven, or their backups. (Telling the truth, Joe would have been a welcome upgrade to most of the Weis-Brown-Minter-Tenuta defenses.) But the games greatest non-official stat provides more nondescript nothingness to an otherwise vacuous conversation. The whole thing could be labeled "WTF?", and left unchanged until something really substantial reveals itself.

"We do not see the world as it is; we see it as we are."

Anaïs Nin​

What it is, is the strange complexity that is the Notre Dame defense this year? Better athletes, a more sophisticated defense and some frustrating performances, framed by some amazing ups and downs. At times, and parts of the defensive game seem truly stifling, at others porous beyond belief. So when it all gets boiled down, to make sense of it all, it gets dumped at Joe Schmidt's feet first, and because the frustration (of us all) is so great, there is plenty left to be dumped at BVG's feet as well.

My favorite thing about this weekend? The team becoming who they are, more and more; astute fans realizing that; and, this exchange with my daughter. (One of the few games we have not spent cheering the Irish together. At the game end I texted "GO IRISH!" to a few friends and family. Here is the resultant textversation starting the next morning :

Isabella: I know they won 41 to 31 right? 8:49 AM
Me: May be the best college football game I have ever seen! 10:38 AM
Isabella: I was very frustrated most of the time. 10:39 AM
Me: Hon, I hope you all are having a great time! And everyone is really getting along! Text or call and leave a message when you are leaving S'il vous plaît! 10:40 AM
Me: "I was very frustrated most of the time." = I am proud of you + you are getting more mature every day! I hope the rest of the stay gets better, and remember, it will only be a few hours before you are back here to the mines, and I work you like a dog! (LOL!!!!!!) 10:44 AM
Isabella: "LOL!!!!!!" dad, darling, that is not cool anymore, correct grammar is cool. 11:08 AM
Me: Oh, excuse me ever so much! Can you ever find it in your heart to forgive me? Egad! (I am so glad that I have a daughter devoted to correcting my fraudulent social media faux pas! 11:17 AM
Isabella: I know, I'm one of a kind. 12:00 PM​

 

[Luckylucci]

Per Coach D's breakdown of the defense versus USC. Schmidt had 4 tackles and 5 missed.

 

[wizards8507]

Per Coach D's breakdown of the defense versus USC. Schmidt had 4 tackles and 5 missed.

Do we have any context behind that? How does an average linebacker perform?

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Per Coach D's breakdown of the defense versus USC. Schmidt had 4 tackles and 5 missed.

No such stat as missed tackles So that would mean in our two biggest games to date..Clemson and USC, he has 4 tackles and 10 missed tackles. At this point we could put a telephone pole in the middle of our defense and it would likely have more tackles on RB cutbacks into it. Hey at least he is effective when he blitzes though right? Aside from tacking his own teammates, what could Morgan possibly do to be less productive that he is not being given a chance...

 

[GoIrish41]

Do we have any context behind that? How does an average linebacker perform?

I would guess that an average MLB in a 4-3 averages 8-10 tackles per game. Four is not good. Anyone who watched the games this season does not require context to understand that he is playing poorly.

 

[Luckylucci]

Do we have any context behind that? How does an average linebacker perform?

No context. I'm going ask on the board for it and see what he says. Hopefully OFD does there's as well and we should get more info on this. Below are the stats from the starting LB's

Jaylon Smith: 14 tackles, 0.5 TFL, 1 QB hurry
James Onwualu: 7 tackles, 1 break up
Joe Schmidt: 4 tackles, 1 QB hurry

Obviously Jaylon didn't have 15+ missed tackles and James didn't have 8+ so Joe is in rare company in that he's missing more tackles than he's making. He also illustrates the importance of some of the easy ones.

 

[Free Manera]

Do we have any context behind that? How does an average linebacker perform?

Gotta think it's better than that. More missed than made? We're not talking about hitting Major League pitching here. When you watch good tackling teams you might go a whole quarter without seeing a missed tackle.

 

[Luckylucci]

Gotta think it's better than that. More missed than made? We're not talking about hitting Major League pitching here. When you watch good tackling teams you might go a whole quarter without seeing a missed tackle.

We do have a little context here in that Greg Mattison says that he wants his D, collectively, to have less than 8 all game. So, one player at 5 is really putting pressure on the rest of the unit.

 

[wizards8507]

I would guess that an average MLB in a 4-3 averages 8-10 tackles per game. Four is not good. Anyone who watched the games this season does not require context to understand that he is playing poorly.

Understood, but it seems odd to me that he only had ten opportunities.

No context. I'm going ask on the board for it and see what he says. Hopefully OFD does there's as well and we should get more info on this. Below are the stats from the starting LB's

Jaylon Smith: 14 tackles, 0.5 TFL, 1 QB hurry
James Onwualu: 7 tackles, 1 break up
Joe Schmidt: 4 tackles, 1 QB hurry

Obviously Jaylon didn't have 15+ missed tackles and James didn't have 8+ so Joe is in rare company in that he's missing more tackles than he's making. He also illustrates the importance of some of the easy ones.

I'm not sure Jaylon Smith is a fair comparison.

 

[koonja]

Understood, but it seems odd to me that he only had ten opportunities.


I'm not sure Jaylon Smith is a fair comparison.

I wonder how they account for the ones he doesn't miss that he simply doesn't get to, that a normal, top 25 program MLB would otherwise get to.

 

[GoIrish41]

Understood, but it seems odd to me that he only had ten opportunities.

That suggests to me that he had a lot of trouble getting off blocks and was pushed out of the way, therefore not having the opportunity to miss or make the tackle. I was focusing on him during the USC game, and he spent a lot of time on the ground, too. Not going to get many tackles that way.

 

[Luckylucci]

Understood, but it seems odd to me that he only had ten opportunities.


I'm not sure Jaylon Smith is a fair comparison.

I think thats another point all together and that is, he's not getting off blocks very well. Coach D brings up a good point, which is, as a MLB he doesn't have the luxury to try and go around blockers and he's plugging holes. However, he's still doing a poor job and getting off those blockers. So, yes he's not getting as many opportunities but thats also part of his general poor play.

I agree Jaylon isn't a fair comparison thats why I included Onuwalu as well. I don't expect Schmidt to put up those type of tackle numbers that Jaylon did but there is no reason he can't be as efficient or at least in the same realm of efficiency.

 

[Luckylucci]

Farley made 4 tackles and missed 3 on the night.

 

[koonja]

I wonder (and impossible to say) how many correct pre-snap line ups we have that we otherwise would not have if Grace/Martini/Morgan were in. I wonder what the trade off is.

 

[Rocket89]

Some early returns from the OFD research:

3 missed tackles for Schmidt. There are 2-3 more you could add if you're being really strict but then you could do that for everyone else too.

USC made a point early in the game to get out and block Schmidt with 1 and sometimes 2 linemen. Does he do great in these situations? No, but I think his struggles here are immensely overblown. The more important part for the defense as a whole was that by targeting Schmidt so much that allowed Jaylon, Day, and Rochelle to kill USC.

In general for the USC game, we didn't play very aggressively. Schmidt and Jaylon rarely blitzed, they dropped in coverage a ton as our line was able to handle the USC front, and we did a really good job flooding passing zones.

My two cents are that it's often difficult to put all the pieces together with how Schmidt and all the linebackers are working together as a unit. For example, there are times Schmidt does the dirty work, eats a block, and allows Jaylon to be Superman. We can point to a couple obvious missed tackles and then see Schmidt not dominate a pulling Damien Mama, but at the end of the day, our superstar linebacker gets 14 tackles.

The last couple games I think Schmidt has played pretty well. Earlier in the season maybe not so much. Pound for pound I still think there are 2 or 3 other positions/players not doing as good of a job, and with that in mind I think it's a really tough call to pull Schmidt off the field.

 

[Luckylucci]

Smith and Onwualu both had 2 missed tackles per his numbers.

 

[gkIrish]

I wonder how they account for the ones he doesn't miss that he simply doesn't get to, that a normal, top 25 program MLB would otherwise get to.

I'm pretty sure "tackles you should have been in position for" don't count towards missed tackles. I think those are only tackles where the player is in a position to make a tackle and the defender either jukes it or breaks the tackle.

Therefore, it's highly likely that an average D1 MLB would have twice as many actual tackles and half as many missed tackles as Joe.

In other words, if Joe made 4 and missed five, a typical MLB would probably make 8 and miss 2 or 3. An average MLB at a top 25 program is probably closer to 11 and 2 every game. Just my personal estimates but there is no world in which a linebacker who misses more tackles than he makes is playing well.

 

[gkIrish]

Smith and Onwualu both had 2 missed tackles per his numbers.

And that supports my estimate almost perfectly.

 

[Rocket89]

I'm pretty sure "tackles you should have been in position for" don't count towards missed tackles. I think those are only tackles where the player is in a position to make a tackle and the defender either jukes it or breaks the tackle.

Therefore, it's highly likely that an average D1 MLB would have twice as many actual tackles and half as many missed tackles as Joe.

In other words, if Joe made 4 and missed five, a typical MLB would probably make 8 and miss 2 or 3. An average MLB at a top 25 program is probably closer to 11 and 2 every game. Just my personal estimates but there is no world in which a linebacker who misses more tackles than he makes is playing well.

Sure, if all you're concerned about in determining how well a player is performing are 2 or 3 snaps out of 70. Or if you conclude that every game Schmidt misses more tackles than he makes. Then it's all wrapped up in a tidy box.

 

[Luckylucci]

Some early returns from the OFD research:

3 missed tackles for Schmidt. There are 2-3 more you could add if you're being really strict but then you could do that for everyone else too.

USC made a point early in the game to get out and block Schmidt with 1 and sometimes 2 linemen. Does he do great in these situations? No, but I think his struggles here are immensely overblown. The more important part for the defense as a whole was that by targeting Schmidt so much that allowed Jaylon, Day, and Rochelle to kill USC.

In general for the USC game, we didn't play very aggressively. Schmidt and Jaylon rarely blitzed, they dropped in coverage a ton as our line was able to handle the USC front, and we did a really good job flooding passing zones.

My two cents are that it's often difficult to put all the pieces together with how Schmidt and all the linebackers are working together as a unit. For example, there are times Schmidt does the dirty work, eats a block, and allows Jaylon to be Superman. We can point to a couple obvious missed tackles and then see Schmidt not dominate a pulling Damien Mama, but at the end of the day, our superstar linebacker gets 14 tackles.

The last couple games I think Schmidt has played pretty well. Earlier in the season maybe not so much. Pound for pound I still think there are 2 or 3 other positions/players not doing as good of a job, and with that in mind I think it's a really tough call to pull Schmidt off the field.

I have to push back on this a little bit because I re-watched some of the game last night and there were two specific scenarios where Jaylon and Schmidt both had there own blocks to defeat in the middle, Jaylon got off his for the stop or part of the stop and Schmidt didn't. So, though this might be part of it. I don't view this as Schmidt isn't getting tackles because he's taking on Jaylon's blockers. It's that Schmidt just isn't effective getting off his own blocks. Could it have something to do with it, yes but I don't think its the overriding factor.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I'm all in on the 'I'd like to see our other options behind Schmidt' train, but comparing Schmidt and Smith as far as getting off blocks is a bit to far. Smith is the best LB in college football.

 

[gkIrish]

Sure, if all you're concerned about in determining how well a player is performing are 2 or 3 snaps out of 70. Or if you conclude that every game Schmidt misses more tackles than he makes. Then it's all wrapped up in a tidy box.

Well in the games against our 3 best opponents he has missed more tackles than he has made, right? Those are the games that matter the most. They also happen to be the 3 most recent games.

 

[wizards8507]

Well in the games against our 3 best opponents he has missed more tackles than he has made, right? Those are the games that matter the most. They also happen to be the 3 most recent games.

The problem with arguing against Schmidt is that the pro-Schmidt position is impossible to disprove. A Joe supporter will counter Joe's statistics with "...yeah, but Jaylon and Sheldon and Terry's stats are only as good as they are because Joe is out there making the right calls." You can't quantify that, so there's no way to weigh the pros and cons.

Put simply, is it worth upgrading Joe if it means we'd downgrade the rest of the defensive front by some immeasurable amount?

 

[Irish Insanity]

Put simply, is it worth upgrading Joe if it means we RISK downgrading the rest of the defensive front by some immeasurable amount?

FIFY

I'm not sold the rest would suffer at all.

 

[koonja]

FIFY

I'm not sold the rest would suffer at all.

Heck, they might improve if the Mike LB actually demands a block. Imagine if teams actually had to be worried about single teaming Morgan when blitzing.