UND News (General)

CANONIZEFATHERSORIN

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I think ND was trying to do this, though not necessarily in the aim of Princeton or Dartmouth. The previous Provost came to ND from being the Provost at Rice, which is much like ND with its undergraduate focus (down to the residential college/dorm model), but is relatively better at research in science and engineering. The new Provost was previously the Dean of the College of Arts & Letters, which might seem at first an odd choice to further expand research in science & engineering, but I think the idea is that Arts & Letters currently is our strongest college in terms of research grants, awards, and post graduate education, so hopefully he can take that model and apply it to the university more broadly.

As for financial aid, I don't know if we will be expanding merit aid, but we may be forced to expand need based aid due to a lawsuit facing the university.

Great points. I guess part of my frustration is we have few world-class scholars on the faculty - there is nothing stopping ND from dropping, say, $25,000,000 on the desk of a Nobel laureate to come to South Bend, but I fear Father Jenkins just doesn't care about doing that sort of thing.
 

RDU Irish

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Getting in to ND is harder than getting through ND. Anyone I know that has gotten in recently played some woke angle and had someone write their essays for them - I mean used a "coach" or whatever. Love to know how many of those kids drove themselves there versus got lead by their nose by 15 test prep classes and three essay coaches. Give me the kid that took it once without prep and got a 31 over the 6 attempts to cobble together a 35 super score but I think we know which one Our Lady prefers to bolster that US News ranking. Significant selection bias happens when you focus on high test scores out of private school feeders. By design they are less likely to fall within the "need based aid" category as they can afford private school and massive sums of money for test/essay prep/coaching - bonus points if they are "dedicated" to a travel sports team - man if you can afford that you are truly qualified for an elite education.

The 80% Catholic thing - OK, maybe they collected their sacraments but how many would their parish priest be able to pick out of a lineup? I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of our registered parish families don't show up but on Easter and Christmas and that doesn't even get in to the ones who aren't registered but also show up twice a year.

As for aid - they are covering 100% of need based aid and have for some time. They include private grade school/high school tuition in their calculation for "need" btw. The definition of "need" can vary greatly from one family to the next but IMO that usually means "thanks for saving money, we will take it and cut the rate for someone who did not save". If by "merit" people mean "diversity" then you are kidding yourself if you don't think they are bidding on those hot commodities.
 

RDU Irish

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Great points. I guess part of my frustration is we have few world-class scholars on the faculty - there is nothing stopping ND from dropping, say, $25,000,000 on the desk of a Nobel laureate to come to South Bend, but I fear Father Jenkins just doesn't care about doing that sort of thing.

Sounds like a great way to stock up on pompous d-bags who resent teaching undergraduate courses.
 

CANONIZEFATHERSORIN

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Getting in to ND is harder than getting through ND. Anyone I know that has gotten in recently played some woke angle and had someone write their essays for them - I mean used a "coach" or whatever. Love to know how many of those kids drove themselves there versus got lead by their nose by 15 test prep classes and three essay coaches. Give me the kid that took it once without prep and got a 31 over the 6 attempts to cobble together a 35 super score but I think we know which one Our Lady prefers to bolster that US News ranking. Significant selection bias happens when you focus on high test scores out of private school feeders. By design they are less likely to fall within the "need based aid" category as they can afford private school and massive sums of money for test/essay prep/coaching - bonus points if they are "dedicated" to a travel sports team - man if you can afford that you are truly qualified for an elite education.

The 80% Catholic thing - OK, maybe they collected their sacraments but how many would their parish priest be able to pick out of a lineup? I wouldn't be surprised if 80% of our registered parish families don't show up but on Easter and Christmas and that doesn't even get in to the ones who aren't registered but also show up twice a year.

As for aid - they are covering 100% of need based aid and have for some time. They include private grade school/high school tuition in their calculation for "need" btw. The definition of "need" can vary greatly from one family to the next but IMO that usually means "thanks for saving money, we will take it and cut the rate for someone who did not save". If by "merit" people mean "diversity" then you are kidding yourself if you don't think they are bidding on those hot commodities.

You're right that getting "through" ND is far easier than getting "in," but honestly ND is far easier to get into than our peer institutions with similar outcomes. Dartmouth and Duke, for example, are about the same in academic prestige as ND and in terms of the outcomes they produce, but are far more selective. ND admissions, especially for legacies (which I supported perhaps a little begrudgingly as an undergrad with no prior connection to the institution but still recognized the policy's profound contribution to the institution's culture, but now support wholeheartedly on behalf of my hopeful future children), are clearly the easiest pathway to an "elite" degree available to kids, especially non-diverse ones.

The 80% Catholic concern is true, there's a lot of nominal religiosity, but again compared to peer institutions the rate at which kids went to mass is pretty stunning.

For merit aid I mean throwing buckets of money at academically super high achieving kids who wouldn't otherwise consider ND.

Sounds like a great way to stock up on pompous d-bags who resent teaching undergraduate courses.

That would probably be a collateral consequence for some of those hires yes, but I can attest from personal experience that many of the science profs already resent/phone in their teaching commitments anyways.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Great points. I guess part of my frustration is we have few world-class scholars on the faculty - there is nothing stopping ND from dropping, say, $25,000,000 on the desk of a Nobel laureate to come to South Bend, but I fear Father Jenkins just doesn't care about doing that sort of thing.
I think the analysis needs to be more complex than that. Is the Nobel Laureate Catholic, or an orthodox Jew/ Muslim/ Protestant who would complement ND's unique voice? If so, then great... do whatever's necessary to go get them. Brad Gregory left a tenured position at Stanford to come to ND so he could work in an environment that's less hostile to his faith and discipline, and we ought to be collecting as many academics like him as we can.

But throwing gobs of money at prestigious academics regardless of their faith or values is the definition of clout chasing, and that sort of reductive strategy is exactly what has ruined so many other Catholic colleges. We're a small, elite, Catholic undergrad-oriented school in the Midwest that's an order of magnitude more conservative than our peers in the USN&WR ranking. We can succeed by leaning into our niche, which involves our Catholic identifty and tradition of athletic excellence. We will almost assuredly fail if we try to LARP as an AAU school or an Ivy League member.
 
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Domina Nostra

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The Catholic identity of ND is not in any danger, as long as they continue to stick somewhere around the 80% figure for all new entrants. Heck they could go down to 70% and it's still not an issue.

This is just not the case. Even if you pretend that everyone who self-identifies as Catholic contributes equally to Catholic identity--which they obviously do not--the admission department is fully aware that lots of kids check the box hoping to get an advantage in admissions, and never show up to anything. Long story short, if the purpose is to keep a Catholic identify, admitting cultural Catholics with very little Catholic identity is not the way to do it.

What you want is what Whiskey alluded to. You want every Catholic kid to think ND is Harvard and apply early. And then you want to compliment them with excellent students who go for the unique atmosphere.

What you do not want is kids who go because its ranked higher than USC or Georgetown, but who would have gone to Hopkins, or Chicago, or Dartmouth if they had gotten in...
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The Catholic identity of ND is not in any danger, as long as they continue to stick somewhere around the 80% figure for all new entrants. Heck they could go down to 70% and it's still not an issue.
The % of orthodox Catholics among the faculty is far more important to the Catholic identity of the university than the student body. And that dropped below 50% many years ago.
 

ab2cmiller

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This is just not the case.

Even if you pretend that everyone who self-identifies as Catholic contributes equally to Catholic identity--which they obviously do not--the admission department is fully aware that lots of kids check the box hoping to get an advantage in admissions, and never show up to anything.

Long story short, if the purpose is to keep a Catholic identify, admitting culture Catholics with very little Catholic identity is not the way to do it.
This has been going on from the beginning of time. The admissions department knows this. It's the responsibility of the admissions folks to figure out who is being authentic. I'm guessing they've gotten very good at it over time.

Whisky's argument however has more validity.
 

Domina Nostra

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This has been going on from the beginning of time. The admissions department knows this. It's the responsibility of the admissions folks to figure out who is being authentic. I'm guessing they've gotten very good at it over time.

Whisky's argument however has more validity.

I agree that the faculty side of things is more important. You are the one who said "Catholic identity of ND is not in any danger, as long as they continue to stick somewhere around the 80% figure for all new entrants. Heck they could go down to 70% and it's still not an issue."

And the logic that they've "gotten good" at picking out authentic Catholics, assumes that they want to. But the admission department is no more interested that anyone else in the University in recruiting "authentic" Catholics. At best, they reflect the policy makers, and those policy-makers clearly down-play Catholic identity. My guess is that the admission people love the box checkers because it gets them off the hook.

And this has not been going on since the beginning of time. If you can't see the difference between Father Sorin and Father Hesburg's visions for the school, you may be drinking the Kool-Aid. The school has had its ebs and flows like the Church generally. But like the rest of the Church, it launched in a very different direction in the late 1960's with the Land O'Lakes Statement, etc. Which is better is debatable. But to not acknowledge the change is just being stubborn or ideological, IMO.
 
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Old Man Mike

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Discussion seems somewhat off to me. All that goes into a university is exceedingly complex, and some of this commentary seems simplistic to me. To pick one thing to begin: universities cannot just grab any prof they want. Competition is FIERCE ... and money is not the biggest deal (facilities and already existing colleagues are.)

I'm going to quote a few things, while admitting that the topics are beyond my expertise.

"Eighty percent of Notre Dame’s first-year students are Catholic, and 22 percent are children of Notre Dame alumni. While they were in high school, 35 percent headed a student organization, 45 percent were captains of a varsity sport and 50 percent were involved in music, drama, fine arts or dance." (My understanding is that over 80% of incoming students participated in high school athletics to go along with that 45% captaincy. I think that admissions realizes that this sort of leadership and "want-to" is an indicator of genuineness in the students --- so, for instance, saying that they are Catholic or something else probably generally signifies a level of participation there too.)

"34 percent of the Class of 2020 are students of color or international citizens. They are graduates of 1,316 different high schools." Diversity with excellence. Pretty good characteristic.

"This year’s “yield rate,” the number of students who enroll after being admitted to Notre Dame, was 56 percent, which places Notre Dame among the top 10 private national research universities for yield success." They WANT to come to ND.

"Community service is a hallmark of Notre Dame. About 80 percent of Notre Dame students through the University’s Center for Social Concerns are active in social service, and at least 10 percent of each year’s baccalaureate graduating class spends a year or more in volunteer service, prompting UN General-Secretary Kofi Annan to say, “Notre Dame represents much that is best and most generous in the American tradition.”More than 600 Notre Dame graduates have participated in the Holy Cross Associates program since its inception in 1978. Established by the University’s founding congregation, the program engages young lay people in the congregation’s service to the poor in the United States and Chile.Notre Dame’s Social Concerns Seminars, in which undergraduates spend fall and spring breaks offering assistance in Appalachia, constitute the most comprehensive service-learning program in higher education." The ND student expresses HEART values and NOTRE DAME has something to do with that.


"The University’s Alliance for Catholic Education (ACE) sends 135 recent graduates to teach in some 90 understaffed Catholic schools in the Southern, Southeastern and Southwestern United States." THIS is SPIRITUAL.

"Faculty in the Notre Dame theology department have published more than 300 books since 1965, an output unmatched in higher education.Notre Dame’s Institute for Medieval Studies was the first in the United States, and the University also founded the first publication series dedicated specifically to medieval topics."
"In a survey of some 2,000 leading scholars of American religion, two of the scholars regarded as “most important to the field” are Notre Dame historians Nathan Hatch and George Marsden. Of the two books singled out as “most important for the study of American religion,” one was “The Democratization of American Christianity,” by Hatch, the University’s provost. A third Notre Dame historian, Jay Dolan, also was cited as one of the leading authors in the field." .

I'm having a problem criticizing these things.
 

stpeteirish

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Can't say enough good things about the ACE program. My daughter teaches at one of those "understaffed" catholic schools and they get an ACE every year which is really great with the teacher shortage here in Fla,
Last year we had Digger Phelps' grandaughter as our ACE. She was a former college soccer player and did a terrific job coaching the Jr High girls team.
 

IrishTusker

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A long slide? ND has been ranked somewhere between 15-25 for decades, right? These rankings rarely change much, especially at the 'top,' and one's exact position in the rankings (e.g., 18 rather than 19) is basically meaningless. Being ranked, say, 18 instead of 50 might be more meaningful.
 

ND Jax

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Can't say enough good things about the ACE program. My daughter teaches at one of those "understaffed" catholic schools and they get an ACE every year which is really great with the teacher shortage here in Fla,
Last year we had Digger Phelps' grandaughter as our ACE. She was a former college soccer player and did a terrific job coaching the Jr High girls team.
Wow, didn’t expect to come across this on IE. I’m a frequent browser who is an ACE teacher in Jacksonville, FL! Can confirm that the ACE program is a highly Catholic program, even more so than the undergrad experience.
 

CANONIZEFATHERSORIN

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Lots of great points being made here. Something else I wanna draw attention to in case people aren't aware already:


ND is secretly stripping alumni of their email addresses and google accounts with no warning or message being sent out. Pretty typical of the way admin treats us. I've been emailing them with no response for a couple weeks now. Still no response. Pretty outrageous.
 

Old Man Mike

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My understanding is that the general information is sent to every grad that their account will be automatically ended at 60 days. To shift things to an active alum account, you have to personally do several actions as described in the ND alumni materials on that page. ... so, I wonder about your secret conspiracy theory claims. In fact I'd tilt in my intuition towards another hypothesis more personally involving.
 

domer13

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Lots of great points being made here. Something else I wanna draw attention to in case people aren't aware already:


ND is secretly stripping alumni of their email addresses and google accounts with no warning or message being sent out. Pretty typical of the way admin treats us. I've been emailing them with no response for a couple weeks now. Still no response. Pretty outrageous.
Looks like you've been heard - they just sent out another email.
 

CANONIZEFATHERSORIN

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My understanding is that the general information is sent to every grad that their account will be automatically ended at 60 days. To shift things to an active alum account, you have to personally do several actions as described in the ND alumni materials on that page. ... so, I wonder about your secret conspiracy theory claims. In fact I'd tilt in my intuition towards another hypothesis more personally involving.

Old Man Mike this is an attempt at a mean post that doesn't make inherent sense or track with the external facts.

Looks like you've been heard - they just sent out another email.

Yes I saw!! This has gotta be a first, the Dome changing its mind on something. They must have been getting crazy amounts of upset emails. Now we just have to keep emailing them and requesting paid Google Drive access. Cornell and Stanford have maintained it cost free, and we're a wealthier institution than Cornell.

EDIT: and weirdly I didn't get an email for either announcement, and I know other people didn't either. Huh
 

Old Man Mike

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If you don't want pushback, then don't slam my University and charge them with some kind of conspiracy against all their graduates. ("ND is secretly stripping alumni ... of their email addresses without warning ... Pretty typical of the way admin treats us ... Pretty outrageous." --- In my experience way over the top and, even, "mean." )
 

IrishSpartan

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Not sure where to post this but recent interview from Father Jenkins on NIL:

"Interesting comments by Fr Jenkins in a video broadcast today. When the wide ranging discussion with Lou Nanni, VP of University Relations, turned to athletics Fr Jenkins made it clear that NIL - something he supports- is being misused and has the potential to force ND to rethink how it approaches football and basketball. He said that it could degrade college football and basketball to professional status, using the example of “if Notre Dame followed this route it wouldn’t be different than a pro team and why not watch the Chicago Bears instead? The athletes are better”. He went on to speculate that Notre Dame could try to encourage other like minded schools to follow them into a league that preserves student-athletes as opposed to paid athletes. He acknowledged the anti trust obstacles In place and suggested Congress has the ability to address this issue to preserve college athletics.

This ground has been covered in other discussions but it was the most forthright comments I’ve heard from the Administration, specifically Fr Jenkins, on the adverse trends in major college athletics due to lack of structure and enforcement capabilities around NIL."

My take: F$@k this
 

Irish4life

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Not sure where to post this but recent interview from Father Jenkins on NIL:

"Interesting comments by Fr Jenkins in a video broadcast today. When the wide ranging discussion with Lou Nanni, VP of University Relations, turned to athletics Fr Jenkins made it clear that NIL - something he supports- is being misused and has the potential to force ND to rethink how it approaches football and basketball. He said that it could degrade college football and basketball to professional status, using the example of “if Notre Dame followed this route it wouldn’t be different than a pro team and why not watch the Chicago Bears instead? The athletes are better”. He went on to speculate that Notre Dame could try to encourage other like minded schools to follow them into a league that preserves student-athletes as opposed to paid athletes. He acknowledged the anti trust obstacles In place and suggested Congress has the ability to address this issue to preserve college athletics.

This ground has been covered in other discussions but it was the most forthright comments I’ve heard from the Administration, specifically Fr Jenkins, on the adverse trends in major college athletics due to lack of structure and enforcement capabilities around NIL."

My take: F$@k this
Jenkins probably ain't gonna be the president of ND much longer, guy is 68. Also some pretty hilariously faulty logic in that lmao.....
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The Irish Rover just published an article titled Keough School Professor Offers Abortion Access to Students:
“For me, abortion is a policy issue. And yes, my view runs afoul of Church teaching, but in other areas, my positions are perfectly aligned [with the Church],” Prof. Tamara Kay of the Keough School of Global Affairs told the Rover following the September 21 panel, “Post-Roe America: Making Intersectional Feminist Sense of Abortion Bans.”

Kay used this panel as a platform to explain why she thought abortion bans are ineffective and immoral, complementing her work to bring abortion to Notre Dame students. Her initiatives began after Indiana S.B.1—a law that banned abortion statewide—took effect September 15. She has continued since the law was suspended via injunction by a state judge while litigation takes place.

To this end, she posted a sign on her office door on campus stating, “This is a SAFE SPACE to get help and information on ALL Healthcare issues and access—confidentially with care and compassion,” providing her non-Notre Dame email by which students could reach her. Kay’s door also contained a capital letter, “J”.

The letter “J” on office doors denotes Notre Dame professors who are willing to help students access abortion. Kay explained in a social media post, “We are here (as private citizens, not representatives of ND) to help you access healthcare when you need it, and we are prepared in every way. Look for the “J”, Spread the word to students!”

These professors, including Kay, offer help in obtaining both Plan B “morning after” pills and “Plan C” abortion pills, which are efficacious up to 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Plan B abortion pills have remained legal in Indiana, but they are not offered to students by University Health Services. Kay, in reference to these pills, tweeted on September 16 from her account named, “Dr. Tamara Kay — Notre Dame abortion rights expert”:

“Will help as a private citizen if you have issues w access or cost. DM me [sic].”

Much of Kay’s efforts to help students obtain abortion services have been directed through her personal social media.

From the same account, she retweeted posts from “Abortion Finder” and “Catholics for Choice,” which explained how to reimburse costs for travelling out of state to obtain an abortion and how to get abortion pills by mail, especially where doing so is against the law. In another September 16 Twitter post, Kay shared photos of “Need to be un-pregnant” stickers with QR codes that led to “PlanCPills.org,” preceded by the text, “DM me if you want some physical stickers. A lot have been ordered. Sharing information is still legal in Indiana!”

The Post-Roe America panel noted above was allowed on Notre Dame’s campus, but, as Barbara Green, director of Gender Studies at Notre Dame, explained at the outset, “The University of Notre Dame calls for balance when sensitive but important topics such as the right to abortion are discussed on campus.”

To fulfill their obligation to “reflect the university’s position on questions related to abortion,” Green continued, “we’ve been invited to provide a list of a few of the many scholarly events held on campus, and you’re welcome to pick one up at the front when you exit.”

At the panel, Prof. Kay told the audience that she would spend her time on the panel “debunking some of those myths” about abortion. She continued, “But keep in mind that the horrific effects of abortion bans I’m about to regale you with disproportionately affect people in minority groups: black, indigenous, Latinx, LGBTQIA, those with few resources, those who are incarcerated, those in the military, those who are on campus, those who are immigrants, those who have disabilities and physical and mental health challenges, including substance use disorder.” Continuing, “Everything I say, should be understood in the context of the disproportionality of these policies on people, particularly people of color.”

When asked whether she believed her promotion of abortion was acceptable according to Church teaching and Notre Dame policy, Kay initially responded, “I am not actively doing that.” But when pushed on the matter, she clarified, “Oh, I am doing that as a private citizen, so that’s been cleared by the university … I talked to the dean and have also spoken to ND Media about policies.”

When asked whether Kay’s actions were in accord with university policy—nine days before the publishing of this article—University Spokesperson Dennis Brown responded, “A number of people are traveling this week to Las Vegas. We’ll get back to you when we can.” He never added any further clarification.

Despite this initial public stance detailed above, in the weeks since the panel and the above-cited social media posts, Kay has changed her positioning on the issue.

Even initially, she claimed to be acting as a private citizen rather than in her capacity as a professor, but Kay further dissociated her Twitter account from Notre Dame during the week of September 26, changing her Twitter name to “Dr. Tamara Kay — Abortion Rights & Policy Scholar,” with her Twitter bio noting, “I don’t speak for my employer (duh!).” Furthermore, the signs on her office door were removed, and all tweets directly referencing abortions for students were deleted.

Emails sent to her Notre Dame email at this time receive the auto-generated response, “Dear Friends and Colleagues, Notre Dame police are monitoring and curating this email account so it may take a bit longer than normal for me to get back to you. Apparently, white nationalist Catholic hate groups are not happy with my academic work on reproductive health, rights, and justice. But ND supports my academic freedom, so if you are interested, check out my website below. Have a wonderful day!”

Since initially removing the above-cited tweets, Kay has continued posting about abortion—for instance, noting on October 3, “World Health Organization policy: ‘WHO recommends that individuals in the first trimester (up to 12 weeks pregnant) can self-administer mifepristone & misoprostol medication without direct supervision of a health-care provider,’” among other posts.

Several members of the University of Notre Dame legal team were contacted regarding the legality of Professor Kay’s actions, none of whom responded.

The Rover will continue to report on this story as it develops.
 

sixstar

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Before people lose their minds on this, I'm just curious if dorm rooms have a letter indicating a safe space for premarital sex.
 

CANONIZEFATHERSORIN

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Kid should have applied to ND - I bet he'd have gotten in. I know getting in is hard, but I think one of the great appeals of ND is that it is one of the (the last?) few remaining "elite" schools in America where middle class kids from the heartland can still get in just by smacking their test scores and high school classes and not dropping 50k on an admissions consultant or whatever. Dartmouth and Duke are WAY harder to get into than ND, but ND places kids into Wall Street and elite graduate programs as well as either of them. Just wanted to share this to remember what a wonderful place ND is. Go Irish.
 

RDU Irish

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Kid should have applied to ND - I bet he'd have gotten in. I know getting in is hard, but I think one of the great appeals of ND is that it is one of the (the last?) few remaining "elite" schools in America where middle class kids from the heartland can still get in just by smacking their test scores and high school classes and not dropping 50k on an admissions consultant or whatever. Dartmouth and Duke are WAY harder to get into than ND, but ND places kids into Wall Street and elite graduate programs as well as either of them. Just wanted to share this to remember what a wonderful place ND is. Go Irish.


I would love to see this kid be able to apply twice - once as a normal white boy and once as a woman stuck in a man's body. Put those results side by side.

Besides - who knows what his essays or activities look like.
 

CANONIZEFATHERSORIN

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I would love to see this kid be able to apply twice - once as a normal white boy and once as a woman stuck in a man's body. Put those results side by side.

Besides - who knows what his essays or activities look like.

Yeah it helps to have the diversity boost, and yeah, clearly this guy did not have hyper ambitious optimizing college admissions parents like you might find in certain east coast private schools who would have put him in the "right" activities.

But I think the point is more, at least to my mind, that ND offers opportunities that are equal to or better than any school in America with the exception of like Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, and no others. But it's way easier to get into, such that a "normal white boy" who just does really good in high school can still get in without gaming the system. The acceptance rate at Brown University is 5.5%. The acceptance rate at Notre Dame is 15%. But I don't think anyone would seriously argue you will get incredible opportunities at Brown that aren't available at ND. ND is essentially a killer arbitrage opportunity for flyover state "normal white boys" - as long as they handle the cold!!
 
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Jiggafini19Deux

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Interesting. Just saw something about this on social media. Did not know it existed until now.
 

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Welcome to the Club Liberty! Liberty Receives AFCA 2024 Academic Achievement Award Liberty's success in the classroom allowed the Flames to join an elite group of seven schools who have been honored by The AFCA as 2024 Academic Achievement Award winners. The Flames were joined on the list by Air Force, Clemson, Notre Dame 🍀🍀🍀, Virginia, Wake Forest and Wisconsin.
 

Old Man Mike

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I'm apparently misreading something. Why did the article demonstrating that ND got an academic award and has gotten it more than twice as much as any other school mentioned get two thumbs down?
 

T-Boone

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I'm apparently misreading something. Why did the article demonstrating that ND got an academic award and has gotten it more than twice as much as any other school mentioned get two thumbs down?
Maybe it’s like that Yankees thing from a few years ago.
 
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