Trump Presidency

[Greenore]

I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of Republicans see this whole ordeal as a golden opportunity to get off the Trump train. One last outrageous moment to use to their advantage and call for a return to normalcy.

My bigger concern is what is going to happen to the Trumpers looking for their next authoritarian---errrr, messiah. If 2008's reaction to Obama birthed the Tea Party...what in the fucking fuck is Biden's term going to be filled with? The crazies are crazier and at this point, encouraged. Glenn Beck has been replaced by OANN and a Facebook algorithm profiting off of their slow dive inside make believe Trumplandia.

Sitting north of the border in my recliner, I'm intrigued. From my view, both parties are broken. The Dems appear to be a mess with "The Squad" and all the infighting. I really do not understand the relevance afforded to AOC and her cohorts, Makes no sense to me but I guess I'm old.

On the other hand, the Republicans are going to have a time shaking off the Trump stink. Can they do it in four years? Probably not but I do think they have the easier path going forward as a "complete" party.

Can't see any real challenges or progression by independent far right wing or left wing parties but what the hell do I know.

Political leadership around the world seems pretty dismal. It's a serious job not a beauty/popularity contest. Just once, instead of jumping up and down, I would love to see a recently elected politician say, "Oh $hit, I've got a lot of work ahead of me".

 

[pkt77242]

You should stop listening to MSNBC and start talking to real people and thinking for yourself. First, little of what you posted has anything to do with what I said. I didn't say anything about the recent election or anyone believing it was fraudulent or not. The OP said he didn't understand the cultish following of Trump and I simply explained that it wasn't as cultish as the media portrays it as and explained how most of his supporters actually viewed him and why they had actually voted for him. No more, no less.

LOL. I don’t watch MSNBC or CNN.....but you are wrong. The belief that the election was “stolen” by over 2/3 of Republicans absent any proof is absolutely proof that it is cultish. Sorry, try again.

 

[BilboBaggins]

He didn't invoke this, but he absolutely inflamed it.

I have said this multiple times before...the one thing Trump did that nobody was able to really do before him was identify the anger and he capitalized on it. The anger has been slowly boiling from the result of disenchantment over the last few decades, the reasons of which are too long to list out here.

I liken it the mood slime from Ghostbusters II. Remember Louis Tully provided the insight that Gozer the Traveler had previously be chosen to appear as a giant Sloar. Then, as we find out it GBII, the Sloar was captured and oozed slime under the Hudson river that was manipulated by Ivo Shandor. Ultimately, as we know, this mood slime evokes hatred in angry people and allows Vigo the Carpathian to resurrect.

Well, in real life, Trump = Vigo and the mood slime is channeled via the media (both mainstream and social). Taking bets for who takes the role of Howard Huntsberry.

I think the big difference is Trump was 100% willing to break the unwritten rules of Presidential action. The sort of things that didn't need to be written down. We've had some pretty shitty Presidents, but for most of the post-WW2 era our Presidents had respect for the office and most of them envied the position for years or decades before they got there. And their ego was directed, in large part, towards their legacy.

Donald Trump could give a flying fuck about his legacy. Conmen usually don't. He ran for President as a PR stunt, was surprised that he won, and has been looking out for himself the entire time. Unwritten political norms be damned, his life-preserver is his base and he'll get as crazy as they want him to be.

 

[Blazers46]

Screw them all... Go Irish!!

 

[goldandblue]

From reading hundreds of posts in this forum over the past few years, I'm convinced that most non-conservatives have a very distorted and misinformed view of why people voted for Trump or how most of us on the Right feel about him. Other than a very small minority of zealots, most of us are by no means card carrying members of some Trumpian cult of personality. Heck, a lot of us don't really like him. There's certainly no idolization a la Hitler or Mao or Stalin (or Bernie or Hillary). About 95% of his appeal to most of us is utilitarian: he kept Hillary from the Oval Office, he has appointed conservative judges and SCOTUS justices, he cut taxes and had the economy smoking until covid, and he drove the far Left into a meltdown, which we found amusing.

All this MAGA fanatacism, cult of personality, desire for him to be the Supreme Leader for Life nonsense is about 99% nonexistent. The whole MAGA thing was just a typical campaign slogan. It was the Left who made it into some imaginary cult. I know a lot of conservatives -about 90% of my friends & family - and I don't know a single one of them who views Trump with any more enthusiasm, hero worship, yada yada yada than anyone has ever viewed any other president. Certainly less than the Bernie fanatics view Bernie or how so many viewed Obama as "The Chosen One."

Trust me on this one. About 99% of us just saw him as the lesser of two evils compared to Hillary or like what he did for the economy, our taxes and the judiciary. All of that Trump worship, brainwashed, Hitlerian obsessive following, cult of personality stuff is made up silliness to smear one side the same way the Right tries to paint every liberal as a raving, Lenin loving commie. It's not applicable to the VAST majority.

I could not agree with this post any more. 100% how i feel.

1. I don't think borders should be open to the masses i think people should be allowed in via a legit process

2. I don't believe biological males should use female restrooms and participate in female sports.

3. Less taxes

4. Smaller government

5. Taking care of the people in our country before we do others

6. Gun rights

7. I dont think you should be able to just randomly decide to abort babies. Certainly not passed a certain time frame. Cases of rape and incest should be decided early as soon as pregnancy is learned of.

8. Not allowing other countries to profit off our country at the expense of the american worker.

9. There is TOO much gap in the thought processes of Americans to keep this thing whole in my opinion.

10. I think social platforms have a very high risk of creating dependency and should be minimalized.

To add a few other points.

1a. Social media is terrible for this country.
2a. Main stream media is not any better.

I have gotten rid of all social media with the exception of this site and some car sites that i get on and i couldnt begin to tell you how much better life is. I dont watch the news. I use an app for weather. I didnt know the white house deal until checking this site.



If all this makes me a bad person in your eyes, so be it. Quite frankly i give zero shits. I think government is corrupt and those that are there, left or right are in it for the prestige, money, etc and not for ANY of US.

 

[Legacy]

You should stop listening to MSNBC and start talking to real people and thinking for yourself. First, little of what you posted has anything to do with what I said. I didn't say anything about the recent election or anyone believing it was fraudulent or not. The OP said he didn't understand the cultish following of Trump and I simply explained that it wasn't as cultish as the media portrays it as and explained how most of his supporters actually viewed him and why they had actually voted for him. No more, no less.

Is this along the lines of characterizing the other side as "sheep" and "zombies" controlled by the mass media that would result in socialism? Or is there room here to respect the process and acknowledge the will of the people within an Electoral system? We'll move forward tonight regardless.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Sitting north of the border in my recliner, I'm intrigued. From my view, both parties are broken. The Dems appear to be a mess with "The Squad" and all the infighting. I really do not understand the relevance afforded to AOC and her cohorts, Makes no sense to me but I guess I'm old.

On the other hand, the Republicans are going to have a time shaking off the Trump stink. Can they do it in four years? Probably not but I do think they have the easier path going forward as a "complete" party.

Can't see any real challenges or progression by independent far right wing or left wing parties but what the hell do I know.

Political leadership around the world seems pretty dismal. It's a serious job not a beauty/popularity contest. Just once, instead of jumping up and down, I would love to see a recently elected politician say, "Oh $hit, I've got a lot of work ahead of me".

AOC and the woke crowd got pretty big wake up calls in 2018 and 2020. Moderate suburbanites pushed Democrats ahead, not liberals/progressives. I serve on a Democratic Central Committee and things like "Defund the Police" are loathed in my circles. By local candidates and state candidates alike. I think we can already see that a lot of the liberal/progressive leadership has been pulled aside and told not to be a bull in the china shop.

 

[NDRock]

You should stop listening to MSNBC and start talking to real people and thinking for yourself. First, little of what you posted has anything to do with what I said. I didn't say anything about the recent election or anyone believing it was fraudulent or not. The OP said he didn't understand the cultish following of Trump and I simply explained that it wasn't as cultish as the media portrays it as and explained how most of his supporters actually viewed him and why they had actually voted for him. No more, no less.

I’m sorry but I can’t disagree strongly enough. I live smack dab in the middle of Trumpland. My county voted for him over Biden. 76.8 to 21.5. I work with guys who will wear a Trump article of clothing every day they are off. Some rode with flags on their trucks. A bunch have started a Facebook group called BidenNotMyPresident. Most unequivocally believe the election was totally rigged. It’s crazy. I’m 45 and have never seen a President treated this way. Not even close. It’s not a media creation.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Bishop, my friend: I agree whole-heartedly with your first paragraph and have written the exact thing here on IE long ago. (Pre his actual election.) I disagree with most of the second paragraph. There are a lot more folks in those crowds that act like cultists or fanatics of high emotion than 1%. Certainly intelligent people like yourself and your friends and family are NOT such people, but there are many of them --- the northern parts of Michigan are famed for semi-crazy anarchists who support Trump. They were there for the picking before Trump, but they found their guy. And by the way, it was Trump who referred to HIMSELF as the Chosen One not Obama. The fact that negatives can be slid over from one hated dude to the other side's hated dude should be pause for reflection.

Mike, I always like your well-reasoned and thoughtful posts, even when we disagree. My 99% statement was more a figure of speech of course. No doubt it's somewhat less than that, but I'll stand by my general assertion. The cult of personality, Trump worship thing is VASTLY overblown, very rare in most places, and much more a boogeyman exaggeration from the Left than a reality. The vast majority of us on the Right just view him as an often obnoxious buffoon who was preferable to Hillary or Joe, and liked what he did for the economy and the judiciary. The portrayal of the majority of us on the Right as idolizing him, blindly following him like some Nazi era Germans following Hitler, or wanting him to serve for life is a complete fiction. It makes for nice talking points on MSNBC and good fodder to rally the troops on the Left, but it's not remotely accurate.

 

[Bishop2b5]

LOL. I don’t watch MSNBC or CNN.....but you are wrong. The belief that the election was “stolen” by over 2/3 of Republicans absent any proof is absolutely proof that it is cultish. Sorry, try again.

Is English a second language for you? I'm not sure where you get that 2/3 thing, but even if true, it has nothing to do with proving any sort of cult thing except in your mind. And BTW, you make a big deal of a supposed large percentage of Republicans believing something erroneous about an election without any evidence. Ahem... uh, you do remember four years of "Russian collusion! Russian collusion!" right?

 

[pkt77242]

Mike, I always like your well-reasoned and thoughtful posts, even when we disagree. My 99% statement was more a figure of speech of course. No doubt it's somewhat less than that, but I'll stand by my general assertion. The cult of personality, Trump worship thing is VASTLY overblown, very rare in most places, and much more a boogeyman exaggeration from the Left than a reality. The vast majority of us on the Right just view him as an often obnoxious buffoon who was preferable to Hillary or Joe, and liked what he did for the economy and the judiciary. The portrayal of the majority of us on the Right as idolizing him, blindly following him like some Nazi era Germans following Hitler, or wanting him to serve for life is a complete fiction. It makes for nice talking points on MSNBC and good fodder to rally the troops on the Left, but it's not remotely accurate.

You may want to believe that to make yourself feel better but it isn’t true. I live in Arizona, and I can tell you that I see it almost every day such as people protesting on corners about the election being stolen.

 

[Greenore]

AOC and the woke crowd got pretty big wake up calls in 2018 and 2020. Moderate suburbanites pushed Democrats ahead, not liberals/progressives. I serve on a Democratic Central Committee and things like "Defund the Police" are loathed in my circles. By local candidates and state candidates alike. I think we can already see that a lot of the liberal/progressive leadership has been pulled aside and told not to be a bull in the china shop.

Thanks for your reply and insight. Cheers

 

[BilboBaggins]

Mike, I always like your well-reasoned and thoughtful posts, even when we disagree. My 99% statement was more a figure of speech of course. No doubt it's somewhat less than that, but I'll stand by my general assertion. The cult of personality, Trump worship thing is VASTLY overblown, very rare in most places, and much more a boogeyman exaggeration from the Left than a reality. The vast majority of us on the Right just view him as an often obnoxious buffoon who was preferable to Hillary or Joe, and liked what he did for the economy and the judiciary. The portrayal of the majority of us on the Right as idolizing him, blindly following him like some Nazi era Germans following Hitler, or wanting him to serve for life is a complete fiction. It makes for nice talking points on MSNBC and good fodder to rally the troops on the Left, but it's not remotely accurate.

Ignoring the continued victimization youre trotting out...you seem to struggle recognizing that even a minority of Republicans is A LOT of people.

I think you're being willfully ignorant of Trumpers enthusiasm for him. You remember seeing previous Republican Presidents have men ride around with Trump flags for FOUR YEARS?? Did George Bush get organized Trump Boat rallies?

Again, it is a fact that Donald Trump's movement grew. Chris Christie on election night pointed out that 20% of his rally attendees were FIRST TIME VOTERS.

Your position that Republicans just tolerated him for the judges and stocks can coexist with another truth that Trump turned tens of millions of people into highly motivated Trumpers and it had muuuuuch more to do with culture war nonsense than any fucking Supreme Court judge.

 

[GoIrish41]

It's Mr. Dumb Moron.

Mike, I always like your well-reasoned and thoughtful posts, even when we disagree. My 99% statement was more a figure of speech of course. No doubt it's somewhat less than that, but I'll stand by my general assertion. The cult of personality, Trump worship thing is VASTLY overblown, very rare in most places, and much more a boogeyman exaggeration from the Left than a reality. The vast majority of us on the Right just view him as an often obnoxious buffoon who was preferable to Hillary or Joe, and liked what he did for the economy and the judiciary. The portrayal of the majority of us on the Right as idolizing him, blindly following him like some Nazi era Germans following Hitler, or wanting him to serve for life is a complete fiction. It makes for nice talking points on MSNBC and good fodder to rally the troops on the Left, but it's not remotely accurate.

Who told people that the virus was a hoax, wearing masks is for the weak? There are more than a few folks still refusing to wear masks as the pandemic picks up steam. But you are probably right ... that’s not at all culty.

 

[TorontoGold]

Should have told the Trump supporters that they would be vaccinated upon entry, would have wrapped this thing up long ago.

 

[fightingirish26]

On balance for me, the RIP thread isn’t worth his crap. Kick rocks bish!

Bish was posting on irishenvy during the semifinal. How sad is that.

 

[pkt77242]

Is English a second language for you? I'm not sure where you get that 2/3 thing, but even if true, it has nothing to do with proving any sort of cult thing except in your mind. And BTW, you make a big deal of a supposed large percentage of Republicans believing something erroneous about an election without any evidence. Ahem... uh, you do remember four years of "Russian collusion! Russian collusion!" right?

Nice insults too bad it just proves you live in an echo chamber. Honestly your ignorance is painful.

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/09/944685514/most-americans-believe-the-election-results-some-dont

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/republicans-free-fair-elections-435488

There is/was significantly more proof of Russian collusion (Gates, Manafort, etc) than widespread fraud in this election. If you believe otherwise you are part of the problem.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Has anyone seen North Dakota lately? Or was he arrested somewhere in DC carrying around the US House podium?

 

[Bishop2b5]

I’m sorry but I can’t disagree strongly enough. I live smack dab in the middle of Trumpland. My county voted for him over Biden. 76.8 to 21.5. I work with guys who will wear a Trump article of clothing every day they are off. Some rode with flags on their trucks. A bunch have started a Facebook group called BidenNotMyPresident. Most unequivocally believe the election was totally rigged. It’s crazy. I’m 45 and have never seen a President treated this way. Not even close. It’s not a media creation.

My experience is different. I live in a rather conservative area and none of my family and friends fit what you describe, nor have I seen anything like that in my area. Sure, some really like Trump, I see campaign signs in my town, but I don't know a single fanatic or anyone I'd remotely regard as a cultish-type Trump follower other than one old acquaintance from high school on FB. One person out of several hundred isn't significant. No doubt there are few, but they're rare in most places and circles.

 

[NDRock]

I could not agree with this post any more. 100% how i feel.

1. I don't think borders should be open to the masses i think people should be allowed in via a legit process

2. I don't believe biological males should use female restrooms and participate in female sports.

3. Less taxes

4. Smaller government

5. Taking care of the people in our country before we do others

6. Gun rights

7. I dont think you should be able to just randomly decide to abort babies. Certainly not passed a certain time frame. Cases of rape and incest should be decided early as soon as pregnancy is learned of.

8. Not allowing other countries to profit off our country at the expense of the american worker.

9. There is TOO much gap in the thought processes of Americans to keep this thing whole in my opinion.

10. I think social platforms have a very high risk of creating dependency and should be minimalized.

To add a few other points.

1a. Social media is terrible for this country.
2a. Main stream media is not any better.

I have gotten rid of all social media with the exception of this site and some car sites that i get on and i couldnt begin to tell you how much better life is. I dont watch the news. I use an app for weather. I didnt know the white house deal until checking this site.



If all this makes me a bad person in your eyes, so be it. Quite frankly i give zero shits. I think government is corrupt and those that are there, left or right are in it for the prestige, money, etc and not for ANY of US.

That seems to make you a Conservative Republican and think it’s personally reasonable that you would vote for him over his last two opponents . What I’ve seen from many (personally) is a total devotion and belief in everything Donald Trump says and anyone who disagrees with him is a traitor. It’s really crazy, IMO.

 

[Greenore]

Has anyone seen North Dakota lately? Or was he arrested somewhere in DC carrying around the US House podium?

I don't care who you are or how you vote, that's some comedy gold right there!!

 

[NDRock]

My experience is different. I live in a rather conservative area and none of my family and friends fit what you describe, nor have I seen anything like that in my area. Sure, some really like Trump, I see campaign signs in my town, but I don't know a single fanatic or anyone I'd remotely regard as a cultish-type Trump follower other than one old acquaintance from high school on FB. One person out of several hundred isn't significant. No doubt there are few, but they're rare in most places and circles.

It’s a big, interesting country. Guess we all live in our own worlds. Interesting day today for sure. Hope for the best for this country. I’ll even be pulling for Bama over Ohio state.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Nice insults too bad it just proves you live in an echo chamber. Honestly your ignorance is painful.

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/09/944685514/most-americans-believe-the-election-results-some-dont

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/republicans-free-fair-elections-435488

There is/was significantly more proof of Russian collusion (Gates, Manafort, etc) than widespread fraud in this election. If you believe otherwise you are part of the problem.

Four years of investigating and zero evidence of Russian collusion... and you're questioning my thinking. You really still believe in all that? Best wishes to you, sir, but I hate to inform you that zero proof is NOT significantly more than anything.

 

[BilboBaggins]

I have something to say. I've been debating saying this for weeks now, but it's more pressing than ever. If you read this whole thing, you may think I'm crazy, and that's OK. I urge you, if you are a believer, to seek God for the confirmation of these things.

It is no secret that I was not a Trump fan. If you scroll back far enough in my timeline, you'll see many anti-Trump posts from the primary in 2016.

I did end up voting for Trump and his policies did not disappoint but something happened to me that changed my perspective. On August 24, 2018, I attended the Ohio State Dinner where the President was the special guest. I was excited to go, but had seen sitting presidents in the past so I didn't know that this would be any different. We were seated toward the back of the room. As the President walked in, the room was flooded with the Presence of God. I'm not joking. So thick was the anointing resting on our president that I texted Matt, " The Presence of God is so strong here that it's all I can do not to fall on my face before God and say, 'I don't know what it is You're doing, but use me.'" It was a struggle to stay in my seat and to not burst into tears. (Pretty much only God makes me cry, but He does it easily.) I've grown up in the church, experienced many revivals and moves of God. I've not felt anything like it before or since.

I do not think at that present time the President was aware of the anointing he was carrying. I do not know if he's aware of it even now. I want to be clear. This wasn't me seeing Trump as God, this was the Presence of the Living God resting on this man. I believe that God is using Trump to reveal, shake, and remove ancient strongholds. The men and women who are partnered with these strongholds aren't only republicans or only democrats. This thirst for power, money, and control spans sex, party, race, and creed.

The United States was founded with a covenant with God, with the adherence to Natural or Divine law. Man may walk away from his promises, but God never does. He is unwilling to let darkness continue in this nation and I believe that we're coming into a time of Divine Providence where God's sovereignty is supreme.
My point in all of these words is this: I believe it is more important than ever to partner with what God is doing in this nation. I don't care to what party the corruption belongs, it must end. I'm not asking you to pick a party. I'm asking you to seek God to find out what He's doing and partner with Him, whatever He calls you to do. I believe we are quickly approaching a moment in time where we will decide with whom we will partner, the strongholds or the Living God. Riding the line will no longer be an option. I encourage you to seek Him and partner with Him. I guarantee it will be uncomfortable. I guarantee you will have to open your mind and heart to what He is saying. I guarantee you will not be disappointed.

Bishop this is what our County Auditor posted to her Facebook two weeks ago. So now you've officially seen one crazy Trumper. Trust me, they exist. This has 140 "likes" lol

Also is a pretty solid example of someone with Trump reservations changing their mind and now worshiping him.

 

[pkt77242]

Four years of investigating and zero evidence of Russian collusion... and you're questioning my thinking. You really still believe in all that? Best wishes to you, sir, but I hate to inform you that zero proof is NOT significantly more than anything.

Wait so Manafort and Gates being convicted is zero evidence? There is no doubt that Trump’s campaign was in contact with Russia. The people who might have known about a crime kept their mouth shut....and got pardoned.....

 

[Wild Bill]

I can’t believe people can’t see the difference between rioting and trying to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power.

I think the difference is easy to spot. I have sympathy for the innocent victims of the rioting and I don't care about the politicians negatively impacted by what happened today.

 

[arahop]

Has anyone seen North Dakota lately? Or was he arrested somewhere in DC carrying around the US House podium?

I hear that some trumpers are taking it to the local state houses.
If not there you might check the North Dakota State House or New York...

 

[BilboBaggins]

Four years of investigating and zero evidence of Russian collusion... and you're questioning my thinking. You really still believe in all that? Best wishes to you, sir, but I hate to inform you that zero proof is NOT significantly more than anything.

I don't know what you've been reading but the Muller Report pretty clearly laid out this collusion:

Trump Campaign <---> Roger Stone <----> Julian Assange/Wikileaks <----> Russian Intelligence

Having said that, the investigation was not about collusion. That was a brilliant distraction by the Trump team. Collusion is not a crime. Russian interference is. Lawyers were saying this from the beginning but Conservative media latched onto collusion collusion collusion and that's all Trumpers focused on.

Anyway, Mueller & Co. were rather specific when they said a fuller investigation was stymied by lying witnesses. Which is what they got Roger Stone for. Coincidentally, Trump pardoned him before he ever went to prison. Huh.

In fact, every single person that investigation lawyers caught for lying to them was pardoned by Donald Trump. Huh.

Then of course there's the part where Trump is named as an unindicted co-conspirator lol

I've never understood conservatives thinking the Mueller investigation somehow vindicated Trump or the Trump campaign. The lawyers said, in as many words, that Donald Trump Jr.'s Trump Hotel meeting with Russians was quite illegal but he was too stupid to know that it was illegal.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Bishop this is what our County Auditor posted to her Facebook two weeks ago. So now you've officially seen one crazy Trumper. Trust me, they exist. This has 140 "likes" lol

Also is a pretty solid example of someone with Trump reservations changing their mind and now worshiping him.

Holy cow (no pun intended). I agree, she's over the top loony and a true believer. I don't doubt that there are some out there like her. I just don't believe they comprise nearly as big of a percentage as many believe. The fanatical, cultish, Trump worshiping voter exists, but I just don't see many of them and don't know any among my neighbors, family or friends. My experience is that they're largely an exaggeration to smear his following. That's common practice in politics. You know, all Obama voters thought he was God, Hillary voters all worship the devil, and all Bernie Bros and communists. It's not true, but it's effective politically to portray the other side in such a way.

 

[pkt77242]

I don't know what you've been reading but the Muller Report pretty clearly laid out this collusion:

Trump Campaign <---> Roger Stone <----> Julian Assange/Wikileaks <----> Russian Intelligence

Having said that, the investigation was not about collusion. That was a brilliant distraction by the Trump team. Collusion is not a crime. Russian interference is. Lawyers were saying this from the beginning but Conservative media latched onto collusion collusion collusion and that's all Trumpers focused on.

Anyway, Mueller & Co. were rather specific when they said a fuller investigation was stymied by lying witnesses. Which is what they got Roger Stone for. Coincidentally, Trump pardoned him before he ever went to prison. Huh.

In fact, every single person that investigation lawyers caught for lying to them was pardoned by Donald Trump. Huh.

Then of course there's the part where Trump is named as an unindicted co-conspirator lol

I've never understood conservatives thinking the Mueller investigation somehow vindicated Trump or the Trump campaign. The lawyers said, in as many words, that Donald Trump Jr.'s Trump Hotel meeting with Russians was quite illegal but he was too stupid to know that it was illegal.

Well said.