Trump Presidency

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IRISHDODGER

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I think the big disagreement many have with this position is that Obama did put out a progressive platform as a candidate and then did a nice heel turn to being a neoliberal. Trump at least had some potential to push the GOP out of some archaic positions and "drain the swamp".....well it ended with him having his supporters wanting to hang his VP. One did actions to move away and one did things to push him closer to that narrative.
Many meaning those that agree with you which is fine. Others would say that Trump is not Hitler despite what Dems love to imply or outright claim (just like conservatives claiming Obama was a Commie when he was running) & that he‘s already proven in his first stint as POTUS that he’s didn’t install himself as dictator.

You’re correct about Obama’s heel turn. I’d proffer that Trump’s tweets & dumb comments don’t change the facts that the economy ran pretty well & we weren’t stuck in as many forever wars as we are now. You can, of course; split hairs and argue the deficit, the fact we were still in Afghanistan, etc. But overall….average guy/gal on the street who focused on what truly affected them day to day weren’t terribly upset. Now that doesn’t suit a lot of folks on message boards who love to post charts, graphs & memes calling the other side names & LMFAO in every post. But the average person can drill down to the simple fact that “Obama was labeled a commie by the right but he seemed pretty moderate to me” & “Trump says some stupid things that make me embarrassed that he’s our POTUS, but his actual governance hasn’t reflected that rhetoric”
 

IRISHDODGER

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Looking at the past to provide context for the present. That’s like basic historical analysis.

Not doing that seems odd to me. Particularly when people attempt to misrepresent what happened in the past.
Agreed 100%. So why did you all support Biden despite his embarrassing record in Congress & his previous runs at POTUS when he was busted for plagiarism multiple times? I realize by today’s standards you’ll say it seems quaint but that’s only b/c he has a D after his name. Or the fact that the US demanded better integrity (on the surface at least) in all of their candidates in the past. Either way, we can’t pick & choose when & who history should matter for. I get folks evolve, but Biden was on the wrong side of a lot of key votes whether it was his own crime bill, the War in Iraq, gay marriage, buddies w/ KKK history, in addition to all the cringe worthy comments he’s made about POC.
 

TorontoGold

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Many meaning those that agree with you which is fine. Others would say that Trump is not Hitler despite what Dems love to imply or outright claim (just like conservatives claiming Obama was a Commie when he was running) & that he‘s already proven in his first stint as POTUS that he’s didn’t install himself as dictator.

You’re correct about Obama’s heel turn. I’d proffer that Trump’s tweets & dumb comments don’t change the facts that the economy ran pretty well & we weren’t stuck in as many forever wars as we are now. You can, of course; split hairs and argue the deficit, the fact we were still in Afghanistan, etc. But overall….average guy/gal on the street who focused on what truly affected them day to day weren’t terribly upset. Now that doesn’t suit a lot of folks on message boards who love to post charts, graphs & memes calling the other side names & LMFAO in every post. But the average person can drill down to the simple fact that “Obama was labeled a commie by the right but he seemed pretty moderate to me” & “Trump says some stupid things that make me embarrassed that he’s our POTUS, but his actual governance hasn’t reflected that rhetoric”
No, there's a great deal of people I fundamentally disagree with that believe this to be true, they're just not popular in the MSM conservative circles which is why you don't believe it to be true - which is fine.

I would like to see which Dems have called Trump Hitler, I know it's a popular calling card for many conservatives to say so but I don't know that to be true and would like to see some proof. I'm not saying it isn't true but I think if it was so prevalent we would see the names of those people pop up at the same rate we see Kathy-Griffin-Trump-Head.

The economy ran well in spite of Trump, this is pretty well outlined and is borne out in the numbers. I know "COVID!!!" but, Trump was already teetering on a recession by his own causes. His insane tariff tradewars, cutting corporate taxes and increasing spending are not splitting hairs but actually terrible economic policy. He was not a good economic president by any stretch, Reagan was "good" and HW passable but Trump and JR were bad.
All indicators were not good when Trump left office.
Real GDP growth
Unemployment rate
Productivity vs wage growth etc.

The average person is not really a good judge of economic performance because they're typically not someone with a background in it and will only understand to the point it impacts them on a day to day basis. Similar to how if you're hopped up on morphine you'll think the surgeon did a bang up job on the operation without you actually knowing if everything went smoothly.
 

SeekNDestroy

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Agreed 100%. So why did you all support Biden despite his embarrassing record in Congress & his previous runs at POTUS when he was busted for plagiarism multiple times? I realize by today’s standards you’ll say it seems quaint but that’s only b/c he has a D after his name. Or the fact that the US demanded better integrity (on the surface at least) in all of their candidates in the past. Either way, we can’t pick & choose when & who history should matter for. I get folks evolve, but Biden was on the wrong side of a lot of key votes whether it was his own crime bill, the War in Iraq, gay marriage, buddies w/ KKK history, in addition to all the cringe worthy comments he’s made about POC.
It’s really pretty simple. Biden received the support that he did because he was believed to be the most likely candidate to defeat Trump. And he did just that.
 

Bluto

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Agreed 100%. So why did you all support Biden despite his embarrassing record in Congress & his previous runs at POTUS when he was busted for plagiarism multiple times? I realize by today’s standards you’ll say it seems quaint but that’s only b/c he has a D after his name. Or the fact that the US demanded better integrity (on the surface at least) in all of their candidates in the past. Either way, we can’t pick & choose when & who history should matter for. I get folks evolve, but Biden was on the wrong side of a lot of key votes whether it was his own crime bill, the War in Iraq, gay marriage, buddies w/ KKK history, in addition to all the cringe worthy comments he’s made about POC.
Who is this “you all” you speak of?

I didn’t support Biden or Hillary Clinton for that matter. I’m not a registered Democrat either.

I campaigned for and voted for Sanders in the last two elections and Nader before that.

I will say that I have been pleasantly surprised in terms of what Biden has done as far as investing in infrastructure and domestic manufacturing as well as supporting unions.

He also got the US out of the quagmire that was Afghanistan, which Trump was too chickenshit/incompetent to pull off.
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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Who is this “you all” you speak of?

I didn’t support Biden or Hillary Clinton for that matter. I’m not a registered Democrat either.

I campaigned for and voted for Sanders in the last two elections and Nader before that.

I will say that I have been pleasantly surprised in terms of what Biden has done as far as investing in infrastructure and domestic manufacturing as well as supporting unions.

He also got the US out of the quagmire that was Afghanistan, which Trump was too chickenshit/incompetent to pull off.
You voted for Bernie Sanders, a self proclaimed socialist, and applaud Biden for what he did in Afghanistan, but I'm the dummy? Oh that's rich.
 

Bluto

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You voted for Bernie Sanders, a self proclaimed socialist, and applaud Biden for what he did in Afghanistan, but I'm the dummy? Oh that's rich.
I did vote for Sanders.

Biden got the US out of the longest running war in it’s history. That’s a good thing in my opinion.

Why is that bad?

That people died and it was chaotic? Yeah, I would agree all that is terrible. That is war though.

That it wasn’t the most seamless withdrawal in world history? Could’ve been way worse all things considered.

Again, Biden accomplished one of Trumps big talking points that Trump himself was too chicken shit and or incompetent to pull off.
 
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Irish#1

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Dummies like Bishop and Polish Lep? No (sorry that cheap shot was too easy lol).

However, if someone new comes to this for the first time it would be beneficial for them
to have a clear understanding of the historical facts.
I don’t think you give people enough credit. I’m pretty sure I could figure it out if I just came to this thread.
 

Irish#1

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I did vote for Sanders.

Biden got the US out of the longest running war in it’s history. That’s a good thing in my opinion.

Why is that bad?

That people died and it was chaotic? Yeah, I would agree all that is terrible. That is war though.

That it wasn’t the most seamless withdrawal in world history? Could’ve been way worse all things considered.

Again, Biden accomplished one of Trumps big talking points that Trump himself was too chicken shit and or incompetent to pull off.
You conveniently forget that Trump set a deadline to leave Afghanistan, then Joe under his leadership oversaw a withdrawal that left many to be killed and betrayed many who had helped the U.S.

Instead of pushing back the withdrawal until everything was coordinated he simply blamed Trump.
 

SeekNDestroy

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You conveniently forget that Trump set a deadline to leave Afghanistan, then Joe under his leadership oversaw a withdrawal that left many to be killed and betrayed many who had helped the U.S.

Instead of pushing back the withdrawal until everything was coordinated he simply blamed Trump.
And you conveniently forget that Trump made a deal with the Taliban that caused the entire disaster. Go ahead and refresh your memory by reading about the Doha Accord.
 

ulukinatme

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Biden did set the rules for the 1st debate, I feel like it's fair that Donald set the rules for the next. I wouldn't do it on Fox News though.
 

ulukinatme

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2008: “Obama will bring us into socialism if elected”

He did get kinda close on the medical side with Obamacare. For awhile everyone was forced to have medical coverage or they had to pay a fine (And some states still will penalize you), my sister got hit with that one a few times. For those that already had coverage it didn't do anything good. My premiums and especially my deductibles went sky high after Obamacare.
 

Bishop2b5

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Trump is now certain to win the presidency

Story by Jake Wallis Simons


It has happened. Two conclusions seem inevitable. First, that we are looking at a second Trump

presidency, barring an act of God. Second, that between now and November lie four months of relentless identity politics.

Welcome to the American election 2024, Donald Trump vs Kamala Harris edition. With Joe Biden succumbing this evening to the ravages of age and Covid, he used whatever judgment he had left to nominate Harris as his heir and successor.

History will not view that decision kindly. For one thing, Harris is one of the least popular politicians to have ever occupied a post this senior. As I pointed out three weeks ago, a poll last year granted her the ignominious status of worst vice president this millennium.

In recent weeks, her popularity has bumped along marginally ahead of the Presidents, but still well into double-digit negatives, and about five points behind Donald Trump. Is it any wonder? A quick Google reveals that her stock-in-trade is that most toxic political currency, the gaff. She has quipped bafflingly about coconut trees, clapped along enthusiastically to a song attacking her in Spanish, sung The Wheels On The Bus idiotically to the cameras to a tune that nobody recognised, and repeated her gnomic motto – “what can be unburdened by what has been” – no fewer than 62 times in speeches, providing fodder for an eye-wateringly effective Republican attack ad this month.

On top of this, her record is yet to be tested. Take, for example, her checkered history as a self-proclaimed “progressive” prosecutor. In her 2019 campaign tract, she wrote: “America has a deep and dark history of people using the power of the prosecutor as an instrument of injustice. I know this history well – of innocent men framed, of charges brought against people of colour without sufficient evidence, of prosecutors hiding information that would exonerate defendants, of the disproportionate application of the law.”

Her words were later used to describe her own failings. Her worst moment probably came in 2010, when 600 drug-related cases were voided after her office failed to disclose key information about the mishandling of evidence to defence attorneys. She made things worse later that year by opposing a San Francisco initiative to legalise marijuana – 1,560 people were jailed for marijuana offences during her tenure as attorney general – then later supporting decriminalisation legislation.

Similarly, she opposed the softening of minimum mandatory sentences, but rolled out a criminal justice plan while running for president that proposed ending them.

The list goes on. Harris has also been criticised for her handling of wrongful convictions, resisting DNA testing that may have exonerated suspects and failing to disclose crucial evidence that may have tipped the scales against the accused in sexual abuse cases.

Ironically enough, she was also criticised on race grounds, rejecting demands from civil rights activists to investigate cop shootings in Los Angeles and San Francisco in the wage of the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson in 2014, resisting legislation that mandated body cameras for all police officers a year later, and prosecuting parents of truanting pupils, despite complaints that this hit poor black people hardest.

All this was some time ago, it is true. But when you’re running for president as a Democrat candidate, this is the sort of record that will be scrutinised by the Republicans and the press, and subsequently the electorate. They will also pick over her attitude towards Israel, which has been hostile to say the least, when 80 per cent of American voters support the Jewish state.

How will she explain the fact that she insisted that the Rafah operation was impossible just weeks before it was successfully carried out by the IDF? How will she explain her blatant Jew-baiting when she demanded an immediate ceasefire, then allowed the longest pause to extend before adding caveats about Israel’s security? To put it another way, Donald Trump will eat her for breakfast.

Before that expected fate becomes a reality, however, we have a carnival of identity politics to look forward to. There were several far more popular and competent candidates than Harris for the position, such as Gavin Newsom, Governor of California, or the Governor of Michigan Gretchen Whitmer, who has the significant modern political advantage of XX chromosomes.

There was also Josh Shapiro, the “openly Jewish” Governor of Pennsylvania, a divided swing state, who is one of the most popular politicians in America, winning praise from even from Republicans after his dignified and compassionate response to the attempted shooting of Trump and the death of firefighter Corey Comperatore.

These figures now must content themselves with a possible vice president slot on the ticket. Why? None of them are well-known amongst the electorate, it is true. But also, none of them is black.

For this is 2024 America, and for the Democrats at least, race matters more than at any point since the civil rights movement. And not in a good way. With pressure mounting on Biden to step down, Harris’s team let it be known that it would be “offensive” if he were to name a white successor, even – it was implied – if that person was of far greater competence than her.

Remove race from the equation, and Harris is a terrible pick for VP. Add it to the mix and she is still a terrible pick, but one that is far more difficult to avoid without igniting a row over identity politics. The Democrat party of today is composed of a sensible wing in mortal combat with a radical fringe, led by the lunatic Alexandira Ocasio-Cortez and her fellow members of the “squad”. If Biden would have allowed his successor to be elected at the upcoming party conference, the radicals would unite with the trade unions and may seize the nomination.

Such a disaster is likely avoided by the appointment of Kamala Harris. But who will she choose for her running-mate? Someone from the moderate, Biden tradition or a sacred cow from the radical Left?

Frankly, at this point it doesn’t matter at all. Biden has screwed America. Arise, President Trump, and God help us.
 

ulukinatme

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I don't know. The liberal media and propaganda accounts are all fully in for Kamala already. They think she's going to wipe the floor with Trump, "cut him to ribbons" in a debate. I think they forgot why she bowed out of the primary early in 2020. She couldn't even hang with Tulsi.

 

Bishop2b5

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I don't know. The liberal media and propaganda accounts are all fully in for Kamala already. They think she's going to wipe the floor with Trump, "cut him to ribbons" in a debate. I think they forgot why she bowed out of the primary early in 2020. She couldn't even hang with Tulsi.


Well, given the liberal media's track record in recent years - and especially in recent months - I don't think I'd put much stock in anything they say.
 

GATTACA!

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I don't know. The liberal media and propaganda accounts are all fully in for Kamala already. They think she's going to wipe the floor with Trump, "cut him to ribbons" in a debate. I think they forgot why she bowed out of the primary early in 2020. She couldn't even hang with Tulsi.


Even more brutal than I remembered. Only hope is that before she is officially coronated polls show that she's even worse than Biden and we get a truly open convention.
 

Bishop2b5

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Even more brutal than I remembered. Only hope is that before she is officially coronated polls show that she's even worse than Biden and we get a truly open convention.
The money men & power brokers will have a huge say if you do. Reportedly they were not happy with their conference call with Harris a few days ago. She's never been popular on the left and I'd assume the powers that be and the major donors won't support her in an obvious losing effort. Nobody wants to waste their real and figurative capital on a hopeless cause. Messy situation that is far from clear right now.
 

ulukinatme

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Even more brutal than I remembered. Only hope is that before she is officially coronated polls show that she's even worse than Biden and we get a truly open convention.
If she could avoid stepping on her own toes I think she could have a chance to beat Trump. GOP has been running on Biden's age, with Kamala in the race that's a huge backfire now. With the abortion issue on the ballot a woman would carry a lot of sway. I just don't think she's improved enough since 2020 when it comes to speaking. A fresh pair of candidates would force the GOP to adopt a whole new campaign strategy, and honestly there may not be enough time in 3 months to dig up much dirt (if any) on new candidates. It might be the best strategy at this point for the DNC.
 

Irish#1

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And you conveniently forget that Trump made a deal with the Taliban that caused the entire disaster. Go ahead and refresh your memory by reading about the Doha Accord.
He did make the deal, but that's no excuse for the disaster of a withdrawal. He had eight months to make sure everything was ready, but if that's not enough time, push the deadline back. If the Taliban doesn't like it, tough. Get your ducks in a row. Make sure you have safe passage for all that supported the U.S., get the military equipment out of there or disable it beyond repair, make sure all U.S. citizens get home and make sure your military personal are out of harms way.

If Trump doesn't make the Doha Accord and Biden decides on his own to get out of Afghanistan, do you honestly thing the Taliban acts any different once the U.S. leaves? Conceivably, we could still be there if Trump doesn't sign the accord. If you want to give Biden credit for getting out of there, fine, but either way that withdrawal is all on him.
 

GATTACA!

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If she could avoid stepping on her own toes I think she could have a chance to beat Trump. GOP has been running on Biden's age, with Kamala in the race that's a huge backfire now. With the abortion issue on the ballot a woman would carry a lot of sway. I just don't think she's improved enough since 2020 when it comes to speaking. A fresh pair of candidates would force the GOP to adopt a whole new campaign strategy, and honestly there may not be enough time in 3 months to dig up much dirt (if any) on new candidates. It might be the best strategy at this point for the DNC.
She’s just so unlikable. And she’s tied to everything the administration has done. It’s not really fair that they’re hit for inflation but it is what it is. Why not pick a candidate that could separate from that? Also how can she defend standing by Joe and not sounding the alarm bells sooner?
 

Wild Bill

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She’s just so unlikable. And she’s tied to everything the administration has done. It’s not really fair that they’re hit for inflation but it is what it is. Why not pick a candidate that could separate from that? Also how can she defend standing by Joe and not sounding the alarm bells sooner?
Inflation, standing by Joe, the border - these are issues that can be debated or explained. Her primary issue, as Gattaca pointed out, is that she is unlikeable bc she reeks of inauthenticity. It’s painfully obvious, even to those who might support her policies. DeSantis had a similar problem. Both are so transparently fake that it makes it difficult for people to relate to them or trust them.
 

IRISHDODGER

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No, there's a great deal of people I fundamentally disagree with that believe this to be true, they're just not popular in the MSM conservative circles which is why you don't believe it to be true - which is fine.

I would like to see which Dems have called Trump Hitler, I know it's a popular calling card for many conservatives to say so but I don't know that to be true and would like to see some proof. I'm not saying it isn't true but I think if it was so prevalent we would see the names of those people pop up at the same rate we see Kathy-Griffin-Trump-Head.

The economy ran well in spite of Trump, this is pretty well outlined and is borne out in the numbers. I know "COVID!!!" but, Trump was already teetering on a recession by his own causes. His insane tariff tradewars, cutting corporate taxes and increasing spending are not splitting hairs but actually terrible economic policy. He was not a good economic president by any stretch, Reagan was "good" and HW passable but Trump and JR were bad.
All indicators were not good when Trump left office.
Real GDP growth
Unemployment rate
Productivity vs wage growth etc.

The average person is not really a good judge of economic performance because they're typically not someone with a background in it and will only understand to the point it impacts them on a day to day basis. Similar to how if you're hopped up on morphine you'll think the surgeon did a bang up job on the operation without you actually knowing if everything went smoothly.
Again, I’m talking about the average voter. Go back to 2020 before COVID and tell me you would bet your money on American voters voting Biden over Trump in 2020. At least be honest. Now, once COVID hit, the Dems got their foot in the door. Credit to them for striking. To the winners go the spoils.
 
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