Torture Report

[Grahambo]

But were they prevented due to unique actionable intelligence produced via these "enhanced interrogation techniques"? When the CIA was forced to defend itself, they couldn't offer a single example. Just like Keith Alexander couldn't offer a single example of how the NSA's dragnet-style collection of American phone records has made us any safer.



Yes, attacks have been prevented. But all such attacks (at least those publicly known) were discovered via traditional, legal and humane methods of intelligence gathering.



Both the CIA and the NSA had every incentive to demonstrate before Congress how their illegal intelligence gathering was making Americans safer, and yet neither agency was able to do so.

Of course they have. Are they a result of information from people who have been detained for the past decade? And, would they have been prevented if the massive government aparatis of Homeland Security was not stood up in haste after 9/11? There were also attacks prevented on US soil before 9/11 without torture.

I understand guys, I do. It's impossible to truly know although the Director says info was used to kill Bin Laden. And I believe him, no reason for him to lie. I wish I was able to go to work and point to specifics but I can't. I do know the work being done everyday is worth what you hope it's worth.

There are programs in place now that weren't there before 9/11 that has added significant layers of security. Not to say it's not possible just that it's extremely difficult. Lessons were learned.

The CIA admitted it was wrong. It does regret going down that road but are also being hung out to dry by the Dems. At least give credit where it's due in admitting that much.

I'm not into torture personally as I believe normal interrogations work just as fine.

 

[GoIrish41]

I'm not advocating for enhanced interrogation as I'm not sure how I feel about it myself. I just think that we should have the conversation in an intellectually open and honest way. For example, it's a fact that enhanced interrogation has produced actionable intelligence. If you acknowledge that and still don't think we should do it, fine, let's have that discussion. But it's dishonest to flat-out deny that we've, in fact, gotten the intelligence (as GoIrish41 has claimed). Likewise, your article decried conditions (humans in cages) that are applicable to any prison system that I presume the author is just fine with.

The report directly refutes this. It is an assertion by the CIA. The other side asserts the opposite. Calling it a fact is a big stretch.

And I have not denied that we got intelligence that way and have said that multiple times in this thread. I've questioned the accuracy of those asserting that we got actionable intel through torture based on the contrary assertions (specifically those in the report).

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I'm not advocating for enhanced interrogation as I'm not sure how I feel about it myself. I just think that we should have the conversation in an intellectually open and honest way. For example, it's a fact that enhanced interrogation has produced actionable intelligence. If you acknowledge that and still don't think we should do it, fine, let's have that discussion. But it's dishonest to flat-out deny that we've, in fact, gotten the intelligence (as GoIrish41 has claimed). Likewise, your article decried conditions (humans in cages) that are applicable to any prison system that I presume the author is just fine with.

I think it's also dishonest assert with certainty that this intel wouldn't have been acquired in traditional interrogations in the same or even a faster timeline. We also know that torture is more likely to produce bad intelligence. Therefore, I'm not for it either way.

 

[woolybug25]

Bottom line, torture and innocent casualties are part of war. It is very sad and horrific. War is hell. BUT, tortured people are exactly that...tortured. They are also still LIVING. John McCain probably still can't sleep at night but he gets to breathe, live, see his loved ones, everyday etc.

Boundaries were crossed but torture or fear of does extract truth. Maybe not all the time but if the majority of information extracted using torture was true, then the agrument turns into a numerical fact that it is more effective than non-effective. No tactic or method is ever 100%... Still probably works better than giving the prisoner cookies and milk.

And McCain is one of the most outspoken critics of the US Torture in this report. I think he knows more about the practice than any of us, and he is adamantly opposed to it.

 

[woolybug25]

The CIA admitted it was wrong. It does regret going down that road but are also being hung out to dry by the Dems. At least give credit where it's due in admitting that much.
.

Honest question... what are they supposed to do? Not release it?

Doesn't that make them just as accountable?

 

[jerboski]

Let's me be very clear here, you do not provide me with freedoms. The Constitution provides me with freedoms, many of which your bosses don't think Americans should have and actively work to limit.

Two oceans, the navy, and ICBMs provide me with the security you are falsely insinuating you provide me. Large elements of the War on Terror, and specifically torture, are making us all a bigger target.

Buster,

You are frightened by his logic however then you post your last paragraph which is by far more illogical than anything he wrote. The Navy is part of the military so him being a part of the military would mean he is a reason for your safety. For you to discount active and reserved military personnel as essential for American safety is an absolute void of logical thinking so I would quit lecturing people about logic when you have shown you aren't the best at applying it

 

[Whiskeyjack]

For example, it's a fact that enhanced interrogation has produced actionable intelligence.

No, it's not. Neither the CIA nor the NSA have been able to produce a single instance wherein torture or dragnet-style collection of American phone records led to unique and actionable intelligence. Both agencies were able to point to "actionable" intelligence produced via such illegal methods, but in every such case, it was redundant with intelligence that we had already collected through traditional, legal and humane methods. Which means that we could stop these immoral practices tomorrow without losing any security in the process.

But it's dishonest to flat-out deny that we've, in fact, gotten the intelligence (as GoIrish41 has claimed).

See above.

Likewise, your article decried conditions (humans in cages) that are applicable to any prison system that I presume the author is just fine with.

See wooly's last post. The prison conditions at issue here are far worse than anything else in the American system, which is pretty f*cking rough by Western standards to begin with.

What are you more inclined to believe? A statement that covers your own ass, or a statement that throws your political party under the bus?

Brennan has lied before to cover his own ass, and he has every incentive to do the same here for the same reason. As I stated before, those advocating for torture bear the burden of proof in showing that it produces unique and actionable intelligence. Again, despite having every incentive to do so, Brennan has failed to produce such evidence. So I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't exist.

 

[Grahambo]

Honest question... what are they supposed to do? Not release it?



Doesn't that make them just as accountable?

Would it have been released if my forced? Unlikely because it's understood how morally wrong and off track it got. The hurt more or less comes from being hung out to dry by the Dems who are lying out their ass on it and who did stretch a lot of information in their report.

 

[Irish#1]

And McCain is one of the most outspoken critics of the US Torture in this report. I think he knows more about the practice than any of us, and he is adamantly opposed to it.

You got that right! I wouldn't have wanted to be in his shoes.

 

[pumpdog20]

I think it's also dishonest assert with certainty that this intel wouldn't have been acquired in traditional interrogations in the same or even a faster timeline. We also know that torture is more likely to produce bad intelligence. Therefore, I'm not for it either way.

I think you, and those that think like you, that feel traditional interrogations work on battle hardened soldiers are naïve. I can tell you with great confidence that the large majority of POWs are not going to give in so easily. And that works on both sides, if not more on theirs since they consider this a holy war. Sure, not all that were captured match the narrative of a soldier (and it sucks for them), but those that are, getting intel would be pretty difficult no matter what methods you use.

 

[woolybug25]

Would it have been released if my forced? Unlikely because it's understood how morally wrong and off track it got. The hurt more or less comes from being hung out to dry by the Dems who are lying out their ass on it and who did stretch a lot of information in their report.

I think there is a typo in your first sentence, so i'm not sure what you're asking there. I'm interested in the question though, so can you rephrase?


The rest I think is very debatable. The Republican response and the CIA response do not even agree with eachother on what they think is erroneous. I think there is way more accuracy to the report than people are giving it credit for. But ultimately, everyone's opinion of it will be just that... opinion.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The CIA admitted it was wrong. It does regret going down that road but are also being hung out to dry by the Dems. At least give credit where it's due in admitting that much.

I'm certainly not interested in scape-goating the CIA. They do a lot of vital work for this country. But the higher-ups most responsible for this mess are never going to be punished for it. Which is a travesty.

I'm not into torture personally as I believe normal interrogations work just as fine.

The objective evidence agrees with you.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I think you, and those that think like you, that feel traditional interrogations work on battle hardened soldiers are naïve. I can tell you with great confidence that the large majority of POWs are not going to give in so easily. And that works on both sides, if not more on theirs since they consider this a holy war. Sure, not all that were captured match the narrative of a soldier (and it sucks for them), but those that are, getting intel would be pretty difficult no matter what methods you use.

I am certainly naive. But I know people who have interrogated people for a living who don't believe torture is useful. I also think that torturing them solidifies their belief that they're in a holy war.

 

[IRISH in MT]

And McCain is one of the most outspoken critics of the US Torture in this report. I think he knows more about the practice than any of us, and he is adamantly opposed to it.

It's because of the things that happen to McCain and other American POW's that don't make me feel sorry for the black site detainees. Their torture was worse. American soldiers are torphies to every other country in the world and YOU KNOW IT! The radical muslims are now beheadinginnocent journalists and peacekeepers on world TV soooooo why should we feel sorry again? You won't change my pity on this issue for tortured because they are still ALIVE. At least McCain is still ALIVE to now oppose the tactic and argue against it. Lucky for him the Vietnamese weren't as barbaric as the radical muslims. The USA isn't doing anything worse than what the radical muslims and mexican/south americans do...we just have all the media to display it to the world like we are the only ones doing it. Yep, we torture. They KILL.

Some detainees were innocent but what exactly was that ratio? IF the innocent detainees who were tortured is in single digit %'s, then this argument is dumb. Nothing in the world is perfect or 100%.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Torturing suspects makes us no different than terrorists. To me, there is a sense that being an American is more than just a happy accident of geographical birthplace. Our sacred documents describe a nation that was conceived under a higher standard of human digity and greater ideals. If we are willing to use barbaric and sadistic means to extract information, what is the moral foundation on which we are committing these vile acts? Are we abandoning those ideals to somehow protect them and the people who hold them dear? These acts were committed by people who will insist they are patriots of the highest order, yet they led us to a dark and disturbing place against the national will. As a citizen of this country, I feel shame as I read exerpts from this report.

Question: would you not do everything in your power to get info if your family member's life depended on it?

 

[Corry]

You got that right! I wouldn't have wanted to be in his shoes.

I don't think they gave him shoes.

 

[IRISH in MT]

Question: would you not do everything in your power to get info if your family member's life depended on it?

YES!!!

 

[Grahambo]

I think there is a typo in your first sentence, so i'm not sure what you're asking there. I'm interested in the question though, so can you rephrase?





The rest I think is very debatable. The Republican response and the CIA response do not even agree with eachother on what they think is erroneous. I think there is way more accuracy to the report than people are giving it credit for. But ultimately, everyone's opinion of it will be just that... opinion.

Sorry. I'm multi tasking. Dropping the wife off at the airport soon. It was a rhetorical question really.

Would the CIA have released their report on the enhanced interrogations if they weren't forced to?

No. But secretly there was regret about it. There's the left, the right, then the middle where the truth typically resides.

I'm certainly not interested in scape-goating the CIA. They do a lot of vital work for this country. But the higher-ups most responsible for this mess are never going to be punished for it. Which is a travesty.







The objective evidence agrees with you.

Can't you make that argument against just about every administration? I've been doing Intel for years outside of a 4 year spell of course. I've collected plenty of actionable and also useless Intel and I never had to interrogate. I can't say what was collected or not via the methods use.

I think there was a realization at some point that led those to say we stepped over the line and it's not working...or at least it stopped working.

 

[woolybug25]

It's because of the things that happen to McCain and other American POW's that don't make me feel sorry for the black site detainees. Their torture was worse. American soldiers are torphies to every other country in the world and YOU KNOW IT! The radical muslims are now beheadinginnocent journalists and peacekeepers on world TV soooooo why should we feel sorry again? You won't change my pity on this issue for tortured because they are still ALIVE. At least McCain is still ALIVE to now oppose the tactic and argue against it. Lucky for him the Vietnamese weren't as barbaric as the radical muslims.

Some detainees were innocent but what exactly was that ratio? IF the innocent detainees who were tortured is in single digit %'s, then this argument is dumb. Nothing in the world is perfect or 100%.

So the anger you feel for McCain's torture makes you want to torture other people despite him not wanting you to do it? That seems pretty unreasonable.

Also, you seem (by your comments anyway) to believe that its appropriate for us to torture anyone we choose simply because of how others feel about us? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide? What's enough?

With that same logic we should be able to just unilaterally go torture every prisoner in our prison system. After all... they would and have committed crimes against us. Shouldn't we be able to do the same? "Eye for an Eye"? Do you think that would be considered not cruel and/or unusual?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It doesn't matter if they care about human rights. We should.

Also, torture doesn't work.

Uhhhhh how did we get the intel that led to Bin Laden's courier???

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Some detainees were innocent but what exactly was that ratio? IF the innocent detainees who were tortured is in single digit %'s, then this argument is dumb. Nothing in the world is perfect or 100%.

Of the 119 prisoners detained and tortured by the CIA, at least 26 were "wrongfully held." That's ~22%--nearly 1 in 4-- of every prisoner in CIA custody.

Are you comfortable with those figures?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Uhhhhh how did we get the intel that led to Bin Laden's courier???

See Wiskey's post on the previous page.

No, it's not. Neither the CIA nor the NSA have been able to produce a single instance wherein torture or dragnet-style collection of American phone records led to unique and actionable intelligence. Both agencies were able to point to "actionable" intelligence produced via such illegal methods, but in every such case, it was redundant with intelligence that we had already collected through traditional, legal and humane methods. Which means that we could stop these immoral practices tomorrow without losing any security in the process.

 

[woolybug25]

Sorry. I'm multi tasking. Dropping the wife off at the airport soon. It was a rhetorical question really.

Would the CIA have released their report on the enhanced interrogations if they weren't forced to?

No. But secretly there was regret about it. There's the left, the right, then the middle where the truth typically resides.

Sadly, I do not think they would have released it. Evidenced by the fact that they lied about it under oath previously and were forced to cooperate with the report's investigation.

That's why I don't fault the Dem's for releasing the report. I believe this is information that we, as citizens, deserve to know. I'll let the politicians debate on what they think of it. But I simply don't believe that the information should have been suppressed to the public.

 

[GoIrish41]

It's because of the things that happen to McCain and other American POW's that don't make me feel sorry for the black site detainees. Their torture was worse. American soldiers are torphies to every other country in the world and YOU KNOW IT! The radical muslims are now beheadinginnocent journalists and peacekeepers on world TV soooooo why should we feel sorry again? You won't change my pity on this issue for tortured because they are still ALIVE. At least McCain is still ALIVE to now oppose the tactic and argue against it. Lucky for him the Vietnamese weren't as barbaric as the radical muslims. The USA isn't doing anything worse than what the radical muslims and mexican/south americans do...we just have all the media to display it to the world like we are the only ones doing it. Yep, we torture. They KILL.

Some detainees were innocent but what exactly was that ratio? IF the innocent detainees who were tortured is in single digit %'s, then this argument is dumb. Nothing in the world is perfect or 100%.

McCain is almost certainly alive because of his father's position in the Navy and because he was seen as a high-value prisoner. You should really read up on what the POWs when through in Vietnam before you make any assertions about who was better and who was worse. McCain is alive, but many other prisoners in Vietnam were not so fortunate.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Uhhhhh how did we get the intel that led to Bin Laden's courier???

Not through torture:

Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.

More, from CNN's Peter Bergen:

Did waterboarding and other coercive interrogation techniques that were used on al Qaeda detainees in CIA custody eventually lead to the Navy SEAL operation that killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan early in the morning of May 2, 2011?

The Senate Intelligence Committee report released Tuesday has a simple answer to that: Hell, no!

According to the Senate report, the critical pieces of information that led to discovering the identity of the bin Laden courier, Ahmed al-Kuwaiti, (Ahmed the Kuwaiti) whose activities eventually pointed the CIA to bin Laden's hiding place in Pakistan, were provided by an al-Qaeda detainee before he was subjected to CIA coercive interrogation, and was based also upon information that was provided by detainees that were held in the custody of foreign governments.

 

[IRISH in MT]

So the anger you feel for McCain's torture makes you want to torture other people despite him not wanting you to do it? That seems pretty unreasonable.

Also, you seem (by your comments anyway) to believe that its appropriate for us to torture anyone we choose simply because of how others feel about us? Where do you draw the line? Who gets to decide? What's enough?

With that same logic we should be able to just unilaterally go torture every prisoner in our prison system. After all... they would and have committed crimes against us. Shouldn't we be able to do the same? "Eye for an Eye"? Do you think that would be considered not cruel and/or unusual?

I don't want to torture anybody. Nice try tho. I said I don't have pity on black site detainees because of what happened to McCain and Amercian POW's. You blind or cross eyed? The CIA OBVIOUSLY drew the line at killing them...something the radical muslims and latin american drug cartels don't stop at.

Eye for an Eye on violent crimes is justice. You rape someone, you in turn should have to go through rape. You take someone's life then you should have to give up your life. IF it were Eye for an Eye the CIA report would be filled with murder files. They are torture files. Get the picture yet?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

.

 

[tussin]

Sadly, I do not think they would have released it. Evidenced by the fact that they lied about it under oath previously and were forced to cooperate with the report's investigation.

That's why I don't fault the Dem's for releasing the report. I believe this is information that we, as citizens, deserve to know. I'll let the politicians debate on what they think of it. But I simply don't believe that the information should have been suppressed to the public.

They should have released the report if it was deemed as a necessary step in the corrective course.

I don't think transparency from our intelligence community is necessary or appropriate. Plus, I'd argue that the report's release yesterday put many of our citizens in harm's way internationally.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

And McCain is one of the most outspoken critics of the US Torture in this report. I think he knows more about the practice than any of us, and he is adamantly opposed to it.

Though I have to up most respect for John McCain in regards to how he handled his business in Vietnam. But outside of that he a moron and I have no idea how he got the Republican Nomination in 2008. Dude is a liberal. But thats another topic

But, my issues is this. If we stopped "enhanced interrogation tactics" does it change how any other country handles our POW's or any other captives? Absolutely not. The argument that it doesn't work, okay, fine, whats the alternative? I say do what you gotta do, If its
"torturing" a terrorist or someone associated with terrorism. Do it. If they die, should of talked. or made something up. I don't know what to tell you. Its War for gods sake. in today's world we have a volunteer military, don't want to get into blood and guts? don't join. pretty simple.

Politics today is complete out of hand on both sides, Democrat and Republicans. Just a bunch of clowns and puppets.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

They should release the report if it's deemed as a necessary step in the corrective course.

I don't think transparency from our intelligence community is necessary or appropriate. Plus, I'd argue that the report's release yesterday put many of our citizens in harm's way internationally.

I'd argue that doing the things that are in the report put our citizens in harm's way.