Torture Report

[Polish Leppy 22]

Would you want some one else extracting information from your kid?

Would I want it? God no. If my kid had valuable intel that would save American lives, I hope he'd be smart enough to cough up the goods.

And I wouldn't blame the interrogator for doing his/ her job.

 

[IRISH in MT]

Of the 119 prisoners detained and tortured by the CIA, at least 26 were "wrongfully held." That's ~22%--nearly 1 in 4-- of every prisoner in CIA custody.

Are you comfortable with those figures?

YUP! That is still a 75% success rate man. That is winning. Hell 51% is more successful than not.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Buster,

You are frightened by his logic however then you post your last paragraph which is by far more illogical than anything he wrote. The Navy is part of the military so him being a part of the military would mean he is a reason for your safety. For you to discount active and reserved military personnel as essential for American safety is an absolute void of logical thinking so I would quit lecturing people about logic when you have shown you aren't the best at applying it

THE NAVY IS PART OF THE MILITARY?!?!

What the Navy does in regards to national security and preventing an invasion is at the complete other end of the spectrum in comparison to the War on Terror.

A little bit of reading comprehension would lead one to believe that he's taking a "we're out there fighting the good fight against the bad guys for you!" stance, which is not even comparable to my thoughts on naval world supremacy and its deterrent.

And I didn't "discount active and reserved military personnel as essential for American safety." The Pentagon's flawed strategy of Middle Eastern whack-a-mole, and my criticism of that in conversation here, is not the same thing as discounting the military; I am not a hippie.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

This is the third time you tested out that strawman. Apparently nobody wants to change the subject to a pretend scenario you saw portrayed on NCIS. Go figure.

Or no one wants to admit that no matter how noble and self righteous they sound on a friggin message board, if a loved one's life were on the line they would do whatever they could to gain the intel.

I would, and I won't come close to feeling bad or apologizing for it. Hell I'd even do it for NJNP or you, my friend. I'd rather have the guilt on my conscience of waterboarding a friggin terrorist than a dead American because I didn't do enough.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

In our minds. Unfortunately they see us as soft and nice.

That's the real problem. Some people think the most powerful empire in history is soft. As soon as we've proven our manhood by torturing enough terrorists, all the other bad guys will fall in line.

We are NOT like the other nations. We don't have mass graves for our detainees. They were scarred but their lives spared and that is what still makes the USA better than everyone else.

"America: At Least We're Not Nazi Germany"

Would you want some one else extracting information from your kid?

Whoa! Slow down, buddy. That could never happen. The moral quality of everyone in the world is clearly marked by the color of their hat. Islamists wear black hats, so we can do whatever the fuck we want to them (they're worse than animals, really). Leppy's kid would obviously be wearing a white hat, so he gets due process. Problem solved!

So whats the best way to go about getting a Terrorist to give up information? just talk him to death? Slam your hands on the table a few times? I really don't know what some of you expect them to do.

From Ali Soufan congressional testimony:

The case of the terrorist Abu Zubaydah is a good example of where the success of the Informed Interrogation Approach can be contrasted with the failure of the harsh technique approach. I have to restrict my remarks to what has been unclassified. (I will note that there is documented evidence supporting everything I will tell you today.) Immediately after Abu Zubaydah was captured, a fellow FBI agent and I were flown to meet him at an undisclosed location. We were both very familiar with Abu Zubaydah and have successfully interrogated al-Qaeda terrorists. We started interrogating him, supported by CIA officials who were stationed at the location, and within the first hour of the interrogation, using the Informed Interrogation Approach, we gained important actionable intelligence. The information was so important that, as I later learned from open sources, it went to CIA Director George Tennet who was so impressed that he initially ordered us to be congratulated. That was apparently quickly withdrawn as soon as Mr. Tennet was told that it was FBI agents, who were responsible. He then immediately ordered a CIA CTC interrogation team to leave DC and head to the location to take over from us. During his capture Abu Zubaydah had been injured. After seeing the extent of his injuries, the CIA medical team supporting us decided they were not equipped to treat him and we had to take him to a hospital or he would die. At the hospital, we continued our questioning as much as possible, while taking into account his medical condition and the need to know all information he might have on existing threats. We were once again very successful and elicited information regarding the role of KSM as the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, and lots of other information that remains classified. (It is important to remember that before this we had no idea of KSM's role in 9/11 or his importance in the al Qaeda leadership structure.) All this happened before the CTC team arrived. A few days after we started questioning Abu Zubaydah, the CTC interrogation team finally arrived from DC with a contractor who was instructing them on how they should conduct the interrogations, and we were removed. Immediately, on the instructions of the contractor, harsh techniques were introduced, starting with nudity. (The harsher techniques mentioned in the memos were not introduced or even discussed at this point.) The new techniques did not produce results as Abu Zubaydah shut down and stopped talking. At that time nudity and low-level sleep deprivation (between 24 and 48 hours) was being used. After a few days of getting no information, and after repeated inquiries from DC asking why all of sudden no information was being transmitted (when before there had been a steady stream), we again were given control of the interrogation. We then returned to using the Informed Interrogation Approach. Within a few hours, Abu Zubaydah again started talking and gave us important actionable intelligence. This included the details of Jose Padilla, the so-called "dirty bomber." To remind you of how important this information was viewed at the time, the then-Attorney General, John Ashcroft, held a press conference from Moscow to discuss the news. Other important actionable intelligence was also gained that remains classified.

CIA later got a lot "actionable" intelligence from Zubaydah through torture, but it was virtually all redundant with what Soufan elicited through the traditional, legal and humane means described above.

 

[IRISH in MT]

Or no one wants to admit that no matter how noble and self righteous they sound on a friggin message board, if a loved one's life were on the line they would do whatever they could to gain the intel.

I would, and I won't come close to feeling bad or apologizing for it. Hell I'd even do it for NJNP or you, my friend. I'd rather have the guilt on my conscience of waterboarding a friggin terrorist than a dead American because I didn't do enough.

Well said! At at the end, the waterboarded terrorist would be upset but he is still alive.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

That's the real problem. Some people think the most powerful empire in history is soft. As soon as we've proven our manhood by torturing enough terrorists, all the other bad guys will fall in line.



"America: At Least We're Not Nazi Germany"



Whoa! Slow down, buddy. That could never happen. The moral quality of everyone in the world is clearly marked by the color of their hat. Islamists wear black hats, so we can do whatever the fuck we want to them (they're worse than animals, really). Leppy's kid would obviously be wearing a white hat, so he gets due process. Problem solved!



From Ali Soufan congressional testimony:



CIA later got a lot "actionable" intelligence from Zubaydah through torture, but it was virtually all redundant with what Soufan elicited through the traditional, legal and humane means described above.

That's cute. See my post above.

 

[GoIrish41]

Or no one wants to admit that no matter how noble and self righteous they sound on a friggin message board, if a loved one's life were on the line they would do whatever they could to gain the intel.

I would, and I won't come close to feeling bad or apologizing for it. Hell I'd even do it for NJNP or you, my friend. I'd rather have the guilt on my conscience of waterboarding a friggin terrorist than a dead American because I didn't do enough.

I will give you a call if my 13 year old gets captured by terrorists

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I will give you a call if my 13 year old gets captured by terrorists

If I were in a position to help your daughter (or any American) in a worst case scenario, I would do whatever I could. Can't say I'm confident you would do the same for the children I don't have (yet), and that's the sad part.

 

[IRISH in MT]

That's the real problem. Some people think the most powerful empire in history is soft. As soon as we've proven our manhood by torturing enough terrorists, all the other bad guys will fall in line.

"America: At Least We're Not Nazi Germany"

CIA later got a lot "actionable" intelligence from Zubaydah through torture, but it was virtually all redundant with what Soufan elicited through the traditional, legal and humane means described above.

That is my point. We only torture and other countries know we won't kill. Unforunately none of the bad guys are even close to standing in line. Being "soft" is the same as saying we are more humane than they are. Nice twist on the Nazi quote. Pretty far reach tho.

So being nice worked on 1 guy...the majority of info was still gathered by torture tactics. I go with the highest %'s and success rates. And keep in mind, the poor terrorist is still alive!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'm not talking about retribution, or murder, or killing anyone. I'm talking about exhausting every option possible to save someone's life hanging in the balance.

There is a major bias in our foreign policy debates toward hard-line options. So as long as extreme options are on the table--regardless of how immoral and ineffective they are-- there's going to be a strong incentive to use them in order to prove that you're more "serious" about the threat than your political opponents.

Death by hypothermia is not intentional murder like say, putting a sword through a neck. When you get that cold you fall asleep to die anyway. Were they responsible for leaving him naked? YES. Are they mother nature and control the temperature at night? NOPE.

Right. So if the CIA finds it expedient to detain its prisoners under water, and they just happen to drown, it's not our fault! Just hard luck that mother nature didn't see fit to bless them unfortunate A-rabs with gills!

YUP! That is still a 75% success rate man. That is winning. Hell 51% is more successful than not.

I truly hope you're joking. You're a terrible person if the torture of innocents doesn't bother you.

Or no one wants to admit that no matter how noble and self righteous they sound on a friggin message board, if a loved one's life were on the line they would do whatever they could to gain the intel.

I would, and I won't come close to feeling bad or apologizing for it. Hell I'd even do it for NJNP or you, my friend. I'd rather have the guilt on my conscience of waterboarding a friggin terrorist than a dead American because I didn't do enough.

When your wife went into labor, did you grab some towels and a kitchen knife? Or did you take her to an expert? If I had custody of a criminal with information that could save my child's life, I would deliver him to an expert for interrogation. I wouldn't play Jigsaw in my basement and then beat my chest about it on a friggin message board over how "serious" I am about protecting my family.

 

[woolybug25]

I don't want to torture anybody. Nice try tho. I said I don't have pity on black site detainees because of what happened to McCain and Amercian POW's. You blind or cross eyed? The CIA OBVIOUSLY drew the line at killing them...something the radical muslims and latin american drug cartels don't stop at.

Eye for an Eye on violent crimes is justice. You rape someone, you in turn should have to go through rape. You take someone's life then you should have to give up your life. IF it were Eye for an Eye the CIA report would be filled with murder files. They are torture files. Get the picture yet?

I don't know if you are drinking or you are this lacking in intellectual thought, but either way, I feel like I am debating a screaming wino with a weird eye about politics. I honestly do not believe that we can have an actual reasonable conversation about this topic. You have obviously crossed over into a bizarre radicalism that I don't think benefits me to lower to.

I think I'll just talk to the other guys in this thread now. Thanks

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

That's the real problem. Some people think the most powerful empire in history is soft. As soon as we've proven our manhood by torturing enough terrorists, all the other bad guys will fall in line.



"America: At Least We're Not Nazi Germany"



Whoa! Slow down, buddy. That could never happen. The moral quality of everyone in the world is clearly marked by the color of their hat. Islamists wear black hats, so we can do whatever the fuck we want to them (they're worse than animals, really). Leppy's kid would obviously be wearing a white hat, so he gets due process. Problem solved!



From Ali Soufan congressional testimony:



CIA later got a lot "actionable" intelligence from Zubaydah through torture, but it was virtually all redundant with what Soufan elicited through the traditional, legal and humane means described above.

So they found a weak link and talked him to death. Wow, that dude was a disappointment. He probably waved the white flag a gave himself up when we captured him. I guarantee he was the last guy picked on the terrorist football team.

 

[GoIrish41]

If I were in a position to help your daughter (or any American) in a worst case scenario, I would do whatever I could. Can't say I'm confident you would do the same for the children I don't have (yet), and that's the sad part.

If you want t do something to help condemn behviors that infuriate our enemies so they stop recruiting the next generation to take up arms. We are not in a Rambo movie. Civility is harder and less profitable than war, but it is more effective in the longrun. I learned that during my eight years in the military ... or was in during the last 15 years working for the DOD supporting soldiers? No matter, I do plenty to help you already.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

If you want t do something to help condemn behviors that infuriate our enemies so they stop recruiting the next generation to take up arms. We are not in a Rambo movie. Civility is harder and less profitable than war, but it is more effective in the longrun. I learned that during my eight years in the military ... or was in during the last 15 years working for the DOD supporting soldiers? No matter, I do plenty to help you already.

In a round about way did you just blame the United States of American for the middle east being a bunch of loose cannons and terrorist? if Irish in MT is irishpat. Are you Obama?

 

[woolybug25]

In a round about way did you just blame the United States of American for the middle east being a bunch of loose cannons and terrorist? if Irish in MT is irishpat. Are you Obama?

No he didn't, and what exactly are you adding to the conversation? Some of you seem incapable of having cordial, intelligent conversation about this topic. Your post had no purpose other than attempting to insult. There are guys like Grahbo, Tommy and Irish#1 that have opposing views and expressing them with thought and mutual respect towards others. You and MT are simply bringing down the level of conversation.

 

[tussin]

That's the real problem. Some people think the most powerful empire in history is soft. As soon as we've proven our manhood by torturing enough terrorists, all the other bad guys will fall in line.

Sorry Whiskey, I'm not buying this theory. I read the article you posted earlier on this and it seemed like a lot of unsubstantiated hyperbole.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I truly hope you're joking. You're a terrible person if the torture of innocents doesn't bother you.

His comments on this thread caused the thought of "whoa is this dude a real life psychopath?" to pop into my head.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

No he didn't, and what exactly are you adding to the conversation? Some of you seem incapable of having cordial, intelligent conversation about this topic. Your post had no purpose other than attempting to insult. There are guys like Grahbo, Tommy and Irish#1 that have opposing views and expressing them with thought and mutual respect towards others. You and MT are simply bringing down the level of conversation.

I don't see how what he said wasn't, in a way blaming us for terror attacks. To me that's insulting. But I'll retract my Obama comment. My bad goirish. but I don't see how I've brought down the level of conversation.

 

[Buster Bluth]

If you want t do something to help condemn behviors that infuriate our enemies so they stop recruiting the next generation to take up arms. We are not in a Rambo movie. Civility is harder and less profitable than war, but it is more effective in the longrun.

I lol'd.

As heinous as 9/11 was, I can't get over how many Americans don't realize that torturing Muslims (extremists), invading all of these countries, spending trillions, etc is exactly what Osama bin Laden wanted. The opinions of Irish in MT on this thread are so in line with Osama's wildest dreams of American reaction the irony is actually funny to me, which is sad given the topic. I believe we're a few more attacks away from a police state, and I think that'd be just fine for a number of people on this thread.

Again, as heinous as 9/11 was, Americans found a way to overreact and feel as if the act of terrorism gave us carte blanche for seeking revenge. It doesn't, not if we're a civilized country.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I don't see how what he said wasn't, in a way blaming us for terror attacks. To me that's insulting.

Do you think that American intervention in the Middle East in the decades preceding 9/11 had nothing to do with it?

If the US didn't have an alliance with Saudi Arabia and act on its behalf militarily, 9/11 would not have happened. That's a fact.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Do you think that American intervention in the Middle East in the decades preceding 9/11 had nothing to do with it?

If the US didn't have an alliance with Saudi Arabia and act on its behalf militarily, 9/11 would not have happened. That's a fact.

i want us to pull out of the Middle East. Cut off all foreign aid. Close the boarders and off shore drill. Fairly unrealistic but I want us to isolate ourselves. If they dont/didn't like something we've done that's fine. But Dont take swing at us. I say if you take a swing at us shame on you. Because we are going to bring it without remorse without apology. it's all politics in the end. Which is a shame. Because lives are lost and money is wasted. But I'd rather kill than be killed. So I say do whatever you gotta do.

 

[Fbolt]

really interested in those that are disgusted by your government's actions in how you felt and what you said on 9/12. tried searching but does not seem to take us back that far.

 

[Grahambo]

OK, but let's not compound a problem. Is the most appropriate response for the Senate to drag our lead intelligence community through the mud in front of the entire world?

Let's not act like the CIA are just a bunch of rogue psychopaths operating behind the government's back.[/QUOTE]


I think this report seems to suggest that they are ... at least some of them.

The CIA is not full of rogue psychopaths. It just doesn't operate like that. What was done was morally wrong and again, its not something that we walk around with beating our chests too. I have my personal opinions on what really went down and while it won't be the answers some want to hear, it would have some merit of truth to it.

Again though, the CIA report is more factual then the Dem report. You (general you) can't quote the Dem report as a source then dismiss the CIA one.

When an FBI agent apprehends a murderer, we don't tie him to a chair, hand a baseball bat to the victim's spouse, and leave them in a room alone together. Retribution isn't justice.

Vengeance is the Lords.

That's my Christian belief anyway.

No he didn't, and what exactly are you adding to the conversation? Some of you seem incapable of having cordial, intelligent conversation about this topic. Your post had no purpose other than attempting to insult. There are guys like Grahbo, Tommy and Irish#1 that have opposing views and expressing them with thought and mutual respect towards others. You and MT are simply bringing down the level of conversation.

You couldn't butcher my name anymore then you did. But I still love you the same. ha

 

[Corry]

really interested in those that are disgusted by your government's actions in how you felt and what you said on 9/12. tried searching but does not seem to take us back that far.

I joined the Army on September 13th, I was ready to fight. I was scared for my families safety. I wanted to go to war. That being said I have zero tolerance for what our country did to those detainees.

 

[enrico514]

really interested in those that are disgusted by your government's actions in how you felt and what you said on 9/12. tried searching but does not seem to take us back that far.

I work in the financial industry and lost of couple of good friends and a number of acquantainces on that day. It is disrespectfull to use their memories as an excuse for the actions of some of our governments since those events. I cringe every time I see/read someone even remotely use 9/11 as a justification.

 

[enrico514]

I would however say that right after I was for intervention BUT never did I fathom that our "leaders" would lie/manipulate to the extent that they did. My friends would not have never wanted their deaths to be used as an excuse that lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents...

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

There is a major bias in our foreign policy debates toward hard-line options. So as long as extreme options are on the table--regardless of how immoral and ineffective they are-- there's going to be a strong incentive to use them in order to prove that you're more "serious" about the threat than your political opponents.



Right. So if the CIA finds it expedient to detain its prisoners under water, and they just happen to drown, it's not our fault! Just hard luck that mother nature didn't see fit to bless them unfortunate A-rabs with gills!



I truly hope you're joking. You're a terrible person if the torture of innocents doesn't bother you.



When your wife went into labor, did you grab some towels and a kitchen knife? Or did you take her to an expert? If I had custody of a criminal with information that could save my child's life, I would deliver him to an expert for interrogation. I wouldn't play Jigsaw in my basement and then beat my chest about it on a friggin message board over how "serious" I am about protecting my family.

Comparing childbirth to interrogation? lol that's awesome. Nice try.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

If you want t do something to help condemn behviors that infuriate our enemies so they stop recruiting the next generation to take up arms. We are not in a Rambo movie. Civility is harder and less profitable than war, but it is more effective in the longrun. I learned that during my eight years in the military ... or was in during the last 15 years working for the DOD supporting soldiers? No matter, I do plenty to help you already.

I would do whatever I could to save your 13 year old daughter from danger, and I'm not Rambo. Sadly, still can't say the same about you.

There is nothing we can do from here that would stop the next generation of suicide bombers and terrorists. Many are taught from day 1 to hate, to convert or kill, to change the evil West, to die as martyrs for their cause, etc. It is drilled into them early and often. The idea that we can "condemn behaviors that infuriate our enemies" is a joke.

Like it or not GoIrish, these sons of bitches are on a warpath headed west whether you like it or not. And it didn't start on 9/11.

 

[Wild Bill]

Lock these pricks in a room with NJNP. They'll talk.