The Two Americas

[Cackalacky]

If we are going to have a serious discussion about this shouldn't we then also look at how an amoral value system (capitalism for many is much more than purely an economic model as demonstrated by the rhetoric of how it unequivocally equates to freedom) has also played a part in undermining individual households as well as entire communities and how it's byproducts encourage or discourage various behaviors? The Catholic Church seems to think so as demonstrated by some of the current Pope's statements.

I agree with this point. The amoral nature of the "bottom line" can crush individuals.

 

[Cackalacky]

After postiing I thought that would come up, LOL.

But to answer it anyways, I agree with you in regards to a message board, as the assumed status quo is here we are all "regular joes" for the most part, pontificating on various subjects. But my point in regards to Mr. Simon was that he sought to use the pulpit of the interview to push an idea or agenda (as if it was authoritative) to a wide reaching audience given his position of celebrity status.

I see what you did there.

 

[NDBoiler]

I see what you did there.

LOL totally unintentional.

 

[Cackalacky]

Im sitting here quoting the great American film boiler room and i cant even get a response.......this is bush league!

Always Be Closing.....

Coffee is for closers....

That watch costs more than you car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? Fuck you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here - close! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit? You don't like it, leave.

 

[rikkitikki08]

Always Be Closing.....

Coffee is for closers....

That watch costs more than you car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? Fuck you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here - close! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you cocksucker? You can't take this, how can you take the abuse you get on a sit? You don't like it, leave.

Thank you! Jim Young is an animal

 

[Wild Bill]

I agree with this point. The amoral nature of the "bottom line" can crush individuals.

Is there a society or system that doesn't run on greed?

 

[Cackalacky]

Is there a society or system that doesn't run on greed?

Not one that I know, but that does not mean that there can't be if we want it to.

Capitalism works very well for a small portion of this planet's population, ok for others, and not at all for the rest. I don't consider capitalism the pinnacle of human financial systems either.

Capitalism will destroy itself by wastefulness and the gobbling up of resources both financial and physical, and it is not self-sustaining.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Our intellectual leaders and politicians are raising before us the specter of a capitalist system that has made our lives uncertain and our souls insecure. We are criticized because we worry about jobs, prices, and a myriad of choices. We are consoled with the idea that a great many of our moral decisions are complicated by the temptations of money and advertising. We are told that man was not made to live in a society as complex as ours, and that it is time he started toning down, lowering his sights away from increasing his standard of living, protecting the environment and moving back toward a simpler way of life.

The same charges were made by the avowed enemies of capitalism during the cold war, intellectuals that fostered such systems as communism, fascism and socialism. Communism has virtually been removed from the earth by people whose lives were certainly not simpler. In fact, the enemy of capitalism was notorious for fear, political purges, worker exploitation, concentration camps and intellectual tyranny, none of which are characteristic of capitalism. Indeed, the enemies of capitalism, in our time, use the rhetoric of tyranny when they describe capitalism, now that they are safe from those charges themselves; claiming that capitalism is an exploitive system that imposes itself on the lives of innocent people around the world, forces them to work for low wages and steals the product of their labor for the sake of “fat cat” high living “commissars” known as CEOs.

It is no mere coincidence that all such statements are made at a time when government, not capitalism, is subjecting our money to inflation, hence worry about jobs and prices; when government is increasingly intervening into the moral decisions of many through economic regulation and morality legislation; when government is taking large amounts of income from the productive middle class in order to provide welfare for the non-productive. It is assumed that government is now controlled by the “fat cats” that bribe government to do their bidding, protect their markets and let them get away with just about anything they want to get away with.

Capitalism’s enemies intend to continue to move toward a welfare-state, since capitalism, in their view, cannot and will not provide for those who have not. It will be the intention in this article to show that the above idea is foolishness that, if we continue the advance toward the welfare-state, we will eventually be led toward decline and dictatorship. We will show that the welfare-state is not a solution but a cog in the wheel of human progress, that it is not an alternative but a dead end, that it cannot exist where capitalism is not present in some degree, and that capitalism, a free laissez faire capitalism, is the only efficient welfare-system devised by man.

Why Capitalism Won

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Redistribution wouldn't be necessary if the country's wealth was distributed equally in the first place. The disparity in wages in this country is ridiculous. For every person cheating the welfare system there is a rich white man making multi-millions of dollars while he plays golf at the finest golf courses or dines in the finest restaurants. One works his *** off for minimum wages or can't find a job at all while the other gets paid very, very well for the work of others. The McDonald's or Wal-Mart worker is a good example of the first and a recent presidential candidate is a good example of the second. Unfortunately, the country's financial resources are solely in the hands of the latter and others like him.

There is a HUGE gap in the NBA in regards to race. Would you be in favor of capping some players' salaries and legislating more white guys into the NBA to make things more "equal" and "fair"?

 

[Wild Bill]

Not one that I know, but that does not mean that there can't be if we want it to.

Capitalism works very well for a small portion of this planet's population, ok for others, and not at all for the rest. I don't consider capitalism the pinnacle of human financial systems either.

Capitalism will destroy itself by wastefulness and the gobbling up of resources both financial and physical, and it is not self-sustaining.

Greed is inherent. You cannot create, implement and sustain an economic system or a society that simply disregards a human's inherent instincts.

Capitalism, historically, is the only system that has allowed the masses to escape poverty. There is no alternative system that comes close.

In the US, specifically, the real problems of poverty are the result of government failures, not capitalism.

 

[Cackalacky]

Greed is inherent. You cannot create, implement and sustain an economic system or a society that simply disregards a human's inherent instincts.

Maybe. Currently. Greed is also depleting, destructive, and is a positive feedback loop surely to end in destruction of the system based on it. I certainly do not practice greed and I very much enjoy the spoils of my hard work.

Capitalism, historically, is the only system that has allowed the masses to escape poverty. There is no alternative system that comes close.

So far. Does not mean there can't be improvements made or a better system developed and practiced.

In the US, specifically, the real problems of poverty are the result of government failures, not capitalism.

The government is not the only problem. There are many internal inconsistencies with the current capitalism practiced today and it actually is not even a free market as many think.
Why Our Current Brand of Capitalism is Inconsistent With Freedom

We are not very far away from a brand of fascism either:

Unhappy events abroad have retaught us two simple truths about the liberty of a democratic people. The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is fascism — ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any other controlling private power.
The second truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if its business system does not provide employment and produce and distribute goods in such a way as to sustain an acceptable standard of living. Both lessons hit home. Among us today a concentration of private power without equal in history is growing.
FDR-Simple Truths message to Congress (April 29, 1938).

Its no wonder he was able to regulate the financial sector and America saw quite a bit of stability and growth until the late 1970s when corporate interests were able to get control of government positions and laws. Now our politicians are the best investment one can make. They do not really represent us, they represent their donors.

 

[Cackalacky]

Our intellectual leaders and politicians are raising before us the specter of a capitalist system that has made our lives uncertain and our souls insecure. We are criticized because we worry about jobs, prices, and a myriad of choices. We are consoled with the idea that a great many of our moral decisions are complicated by the temptations of money and advertising. We are told that man was not made to live in a society as complex as ours, and that it is time he started toning down, lowering his sights away from increasing his standard of living, protecting the environment and moving back toward a simpler way of life.

The same charges were made by the avowed enemies of capitalism during the cold war, intellectuals that fostered such systems as communism, fascism and socialism. Communism has virtually been removed from the earth by people whose lives were certainly not simpler. In fact, the enemy of capitalism was notorious for fear, political purges, worker exploitation, concentration camps and intellectual tyranny, none of which are characteristic of capitalism. Indeed, the enemies of capitalism, in our time, use the rhetoric of tyranny when they describe capitalism, now that they are safe from those charges themselves; claiming that capitalism is an exploitive system that imposes itself on the lives of innocent people around the world, forces them to work for low wages and steals the product of their labor for the sake of “fat cat” high living “commissars” known as CEOs.

It is no mere coincidence that all such statements are made at a time when government, not capitalism, is subjecting our money to inflation, hence worry about jobs and prices; when government is increasingly intervening into the moral decisions of many through economic regulation and morality legislation; when government is taking large amounts of income from the productive middle class in order to provide welfare for the non-productive. It is assumed that government is now controlled by the “fat cats” that bribe government to do their bidding, protect their markets and let them get away with just about anything they want to get away with.

Capitalism’s enemies intend to continue to move toward a welfare-state, since capitalism, in their view, cannot and will not provide for those who have not. It will be the intention in this article to show that the above idea is foolishness that, if we continue the advance toward the welfare-state, we will eventually be led toward decline and dictatorship. We will show that the welfare-state is not a solution but a cog in the wheel of human progress, that it is not an alternative but a dead end, that it cannot exist where capitalism is not present in some degree, and that capitalism, a free laissez faire capitalism, is the only efficient welfare-system devised by man.

Why Capitalism Won

If you think I am favoring marxism or communism, you have me all wrong.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Aren't the leaders/ dictators of every socialist/ communist country in history and in present just as greedy, if not more, than every Fortunte 500 CEO?

 

[Cackalacky]

Aren't the leaders/ dictators of every socialist/ communist country in history and in present just as greedy, if not more, than every Fortunte 500 CEO?

Yes. Moreso probably seeing as nearly 50 million people were executed based on failed agrarian policies.

 

[ACamp1900]

If you think I am favoring marxism or communism, you have me all wrong.

“I am not a Communist, I’m a Marxist Leninist”

 

[Cackalacky]

I am having a hard time believing you guys can't see future possibilities or distinctions between capitalism as it should be, capitalism as it is today, and the entire other end of the market spectrum.....am I missing something?

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[Ndaccountant]

I am having a hard time believing you guys can't see future possibilities or distinctions between capitalism as it should be, capitalism as it is today, and the entire other end of the market spectrum.....am I missing something?

I guess I am not clear to the alternative. I would love a system where everyone prospers equally and to the furthest extent possible. Just dont understand on how you think we should get from point A to point B without drastically altering the system that has brought so much good.

 

[Cackalacky]

I guess I am not clear to the alternative. I would love a system where everyone prospers equally and to the furthest extent possible. Just don't understand on how you think we should get from point A to point B without drastically altering the system that has brought so much good.

There is no alternative being practiced or developed. Only a wrong form of capitalism on steroids destined to consume resources and eat itself from greed. That is my point. What we are doing is not sustainable and there is nothing else even being considered. And it has only brought so much good to a relatively small group of people. You don't think that can be improved upon?

 

[Redbar]

I am having a hard time believing you guys can't see future possibilities or distinctions between capitalism as it should be, capitalism as it is today, and the entire other end of the market spectrum.....am I missing something?

If someone can explain what it is you are missing, pm me or repost it please, because I am obviously missing it also. The positions you are articulating are incredibly reasonable and rational to me.

 

[Cackalacky]

This is an excellent opinion piece from David Stockman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/opinion/sunday/sundown-in-america.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

 

[Ndaccountant]

There is no alternative being practiced or developed. Only a wrong form of capitalism on steroids destined to consume resources and eat itself from greed. That is my point. What we are doing is not sustainable and there is nothing else even being considered. And it has only brought so much good to a relatively small group of people. You don't think that can be improved upon?

I just don't agree with the bolded.

 

[Cackalacky]

I just don't agree with the bolded.

I guess it depends on several things like what country you live in, how much money you make, what products are available to you etc. "Good" is a fairly subjective term. What is good for one person might actually be a net bad for someone else.

Did you read the opinion piece above?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I don't know, but I'm glad Pat isn't here to answer the question.

I noticed how much better, more rational, and cleaner this thread is without him. Thank you based mods.

 

[nsideirish]

In this country, if you dare criticize any aspect of the capitalist system or corporations, you are labeled a commie or, gasp, a socialist.

I am not a communist. I am not a socialist. But I do believe there are many beneficial programs that would be considered "socialist". I also believe many of the tenants of capitalist economics and, generally, libertarianism (especially socially/civil liberties).

 

[Redbar]

A long time ago Buster posted a video from a professor at Yale teaching a MBA course. This professor had a guest in the class and after interacting with the class about the principles of laissez faire capitalism, he introduced his guest to the class. The gentleman had been a financial exec at Enron. He left before the collapse, but not before trying to sound the alarms for what he saw happening. I believe he went on to start his own company. Anyway the professor asked him if all the execs in all the boardrooms he had been in believed in laissez faire policy, and the man stated well of course you learn about it in school and it is like this ideal that everyone claims to believe in and then once you get into business you do everything you can to if not destroy certainly subvert. The professor asked him what he would do if they had a healthy, competitive market, with easy and equal access to suppliers and consumers, with fair and competitive policies that allowed the market to actually dictate terms. (Something to this effect) Well, this guest said, I would run. He went on to say everyone knows all the textbook ideas about capitalism, but what everyone wants is influence and advantage. People don't want free markets they want to control markets. That is IMO where we are right now.

As Cack stated there is a difference between capitalism as it should be and capitalism as it is today. Attacking capitalism as it is today does not make one communist, anti-capitalism or any other label people like to throw around to shut down debate and suffocate the opportunity to open our minds and conceive that there ARE other options, that WE have power, and that eventually we have to take responsibility for the problems in our world and only we can correct them with healthy and sustainable solutions. Many of those profiting and many others suffering under the status quo desperately need to realize this.

 

[enrico514]

.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I guess it depends on several things like what country you live in, how much money you make, what products are available to you etc. "Good" is a fairly subjective term. What is good for one person might actually be a net bad for someone else.

Did you read the opinion piece above?

Yea, I read it. No different that many of the things you can read on zerohedge. I find it hard to figure out exactly what his overall point and how all of that tied together. It reminded me of this GIF:

Look, I am not going to argue that loose money Fed policy is a great thing. In fact, I find it funny that Obama has not railed on the Fed for basically lifting asset prices which stands to benefit those who hold assets only. Besides that, yea, we have a spending problem that has persisted across both parties and special interests are abysmal. I won't argue that we have a huge debt problem either. However, I am not going to call it game over either. In fact, I would argue that we need to get rid of the pollutants that bog down free markets to better the fiscal environment.

 

[Cackalacky]

Yea, I read it. No different that many of the things you can read on zerohedge. I find it hard to figure out exactly what his overall point and how all of that tied together. It reminded me of this GIF:

Look, I am not going to argue that loose money Fed policy is a great thing. In fact, I find it funny that Obama has not railed on the Fed for basically lifting asset prices which stands to benefit those who hold assets only. Besides that, yea, we have a spending problem that has persisted across both parties and special interests are abysmal. I won't argue that we have a huge debt problem either. However, I am not going to call it game over either. In fact, I would argue that we need to get rid of the pollutants that bog down free markets to better the fiscal environment.

Lol. That is a funny gif. I here ya I hope it's not game over.

 

[Black Irish]

This is an excellent opinion piece from David Stockman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/opinion/sunday/sundown-in-america.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

What I get from Stockman's article is that the country's financial problems are very big while our politicians and bureaucrats are so very small. So many say they want real leadership in America, but anyone who is serious about tackling our problems is going to be cast aside as an extremist loon.