The case for an 8 Team Playoff

[Irishize]

I believe the sentiment is to have round one games the week following the conference championships.

I'm not sure you have to reduce games at all. But I'm perfectly fine with reducing one by eliminating all FCS games. I do like the ideal of a "scrimmage" early pre-season or spring game that doesn't count.

I know it doesn’t seem like a big deal to most CFB fans but you know Army-Navy is always the weekend after the conf champ games. If they’re serious about a true playoff, Army would need to join a conference & they’d need to re-schedule Navy game.

 

[Irishize]

That has literally never happened.

If ND gets embarrassed again this year, the CFP Committee will be hesitant to rubber stamp ND just b/c they went undefeated going forward. That’s not logical nor objective but the perception from 2012 is still alive & well. If Clemson makes ND look like an FCS opponent, it’ll make it tougher if the CFP has more choices of undefeated teams.

 

[Bishop2b5]

If ND gets embarrassed again this year, the CFP Committee will be hesitant to rubber stamp ND just b/c they went undefeated going forward. That’s not logical nor objective but the perception from 2012 is still alive & well. If Clemson makes ND look like an FCS opponent, it’ll make it tougher if the CFP has more choices of undefeated teams.

2012 probably isn't as big of a deal for the rest of the CFB world as you guys seem to think. Most people don't see it as very relevant. It's not in the same league as OSU getting blanked by Clemson a few years ago. ND had a good team in 2012 that was simply overmatched and ran into a buzz saw. OSU failed to show up against Clemson and just flat out shit the bed. Huge difference.

 

[wizards8507]

If ND gets embarrassed again this year, the CFP Committee will be hesitant to rubber stamp ND just b/c they went undefeated going forward. That’s not logical nor objective but the perception from 2012 is still alive & well. If Clemson makes ND look like an FCS opponent, it’ll make it tougher if the CFP has more choices of undefeated teams.

Nobody cares about 2012.

 

[Redbar]

If ND gets embarrassed again this year, the CFP Committee will be hesitant to rubber stamp ND just b/c they went undefeated going forward. That’s not logical nor objective but the perception from 2012 is still alive & well. If Clemson makes ND look like an FCS opponent, it’ll make it tougher if the CFP has more choices of undefeated teams.

I agree. Our biggest threat to making the playoffs in the future, and even maintaining independence, is not showing up against the best teams. I think this game with Clemson could prove to be a pivotal one for Notre Dame football.

 

[Irish YJ]

I know it doesn’t seem like a big deal to most CFB fans but you know Army-Navy is always the weekend after the conf champ games. If they’re serious about a true playoff, Army would need to join a conference & they’d need to re-schedule Navy game.

I mean they both play the week after the CFP is announced now, right. So just move the game out one more week (week after 1st round). I think they both already have assumed they won't be in the top 4. If not, what if for instance in the current situation, Navy is undefeated, them wins the AAC, is in the top 4 (I know, just hypothetical), the CFP is announced with Navy in it, they they lose to Army the next week...

If ND gets embarrassed again this year, the CFP Committee will be hesitant to rubber stamp ND just b/c they went undefeated going forward. That’s not logical nor objective but the perception from 2012 is still alive & well. If Clemson makes ND look like an FCS opponent, it’ll make it tougher if the CFP has more choices of undefeated teams.

very alive. we heard it when the CFP was announced this year. it only grows louder if we have another ugly loss.

2012 probably isn't as big of a deal for the rest of the CFB world as you guys seem to think. Most people don't see it as very relevant. It's not in the same league as OSU getting blanked by Clemson a few years ago. ND had a good team in 2012 that was simply overmatched and ran into a buzz saw. OSU failed to show up against Clemson and just flat out shit the bed. Huge difference.

IDK. OSU has won two NCs in the last 20 years, and one in the 2014 CFP. They have that to fall back on.

Nobody cares about 2012.

You must not watch ESPN, have twitter, listen to the radio, or watch pressers..... If you played a drinking game the weekend the CFP was announced, and had to drink whenever 2012 was mentioned, you'd have multiple organ failure and be blind from alcohol poisoning.

 

[Irishize]

2012 probably isn't as big of a deal for the rest of the CFB world as you guys seem to think. Most people don't see it as very relevant. It's not in the same league as OSU getting blanked by Clemson a few years ago. ND had a good team in 2012 that was simply overmatched and ran into a buzz saw. OSU failed to show up against Clemson and just flat out shit the bed. Huge difference.

They do on Twitter. It’s all SEC fans talk about when ND is mentioned. Especially Bama fans.

 

[Irishize]

I mean they both play the week after the CFP is announced now, right. So just move the game out one more week (week after 1st round). I think they both already have assumed they won't be in the top 4. If not, what if for instance in the current situation, Navy is undefeated, them wins the AAC, is in the top 4 (I know, just hypothetical), the CFP is announced with Navy in it, they they lose to Army the next week...



very alive. we heard it when the CFP was announced this year. it only grows louder if we have another ugly loss.



IDK. OSU has won two NCs in the last 20 years, and one in the 2014 CFP. They have that to fall back on.



You must not watch ESPN, have twitter, listen to the radio, or watch pressers..... If you played a drinking game the weekend the CFP was announced, and had to drink whenever 2012 was mentioned, you'd have multiple organ failure and be blind from alcohol poisoning.

Bingo Bango.

 

[wizards8507]

I mean they both play the week after the CFP is announced now, right. So just move the game out one more week (week after 1st round). I think they both already have assumed they won't be in the top 4. If not, what if for instance in the current situation, Navy is undefeated, them wins the AAC, is in the top 4 (I know, just hypothetical), the CFP is announced with Navy in it, they they lose to Army the next week...



very alive. we heard it when the CFP was announced this year. it only grows louder if we have another ugly loss.



IDK. OSU has won two NCs in the last 20 years, and one in the 2014 CFP. They have that to fall back on.



You must not watch ESPN, have twitter, listen to the radio, or watch pressers..... If you played a drinking game the weekend the CFP was announced, and had to drink whenever 2012 was mentioned, you'd have multiple organ failure and be blind from alcohol poisoning.

Talking heads and jackass SEC homers. By "no one cares about 2012," I'm talking about the committee and polling voters.

 

[ThePiombino]

Then why is the media CONSTANTLY bringing up 2012 and never bringing up OSU getting pwned by Clemson?

2012 probably isn't as big of a deal for the rest of the CFB world as you guys seem to think. Most people don't see it as very relevant. It's not in the same league as OSU getting blanked by Clemson a few years ago. ND had a good team in 2012 that was simply overmatched and ran into a buzz saw. OSU failed to show up against Clemson and just flat out shit the bed. Huge difference.

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[fightingirish26]

Then why is the media CONSTANTLY bringing up 2012 and never bringing up OSU getting pwned by Clemson?

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How many big postseason wins does ND have recently? How many does OSU have?

 

[Irish YJ]

Talking heads and jackass SEC homers. By "no one cares about 2012," I'm talking about the committee and polling voters.

I have zero confidence in ADs and xCoaches (on the CFP) with ties to other schools not being jackasses or conference homers.

Name Position Conference
Frank Beamer Former Virginia Tech Head Coach ACC
Paola Boivin Former The Arizona Republic Reporter None
Jeff Bower Former Southern Miss Head Coach C-USA
Joe Castiglione Oklahoma Athletic Director Big 12
Herb Deromedi Former Central Michigan Head Coach MAC
Ken Hatfield Former, Rice, Clemson, Air Force, Arkansas Head Coach None
Christopher Howard Robert Morris University President, Former Air Force RB None
Bobby Johnson Former Vanderbilt Head Coach, Former Clemson player None
Ronnie Lott NFL Hall of Fame DB, Former USC DB USC
Rob Mullens CFB Playoff Chairman, Oregon Atheltic Director Pac-12
Gene Smith Ohio State Athletic Director Big Ten
Todd Stansbury Georgia Tech Athletic Director ACC
Scott Stricklin Florida Athletic Director SEC

 

[Bishop2b5]

Then why is the media CONSTANTLY bringing up 2012 and never bringing up OSU getting pwned by Clemson?

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I think some of that is ND fans just being more alert to it being brought up. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I rarely hear it. I've actually heard about OSU getting run out of the stadium by Clemson during the past two playoff selection cycles. Honestly, I just don't see 2012 as being relevant today and I don't think many people who count think of it as being relevant either. You guys didn't fail to show up that night. You just ran into a team that wasn't going to lose to anyone this side of the NFL that particular night. I don't think many serious football fans or experts are still holding that game against you.

 

[ickythump1225]

They've been victims of weather twice in the last two years (P5 cancels).
If they beat #11 LSU this year in the bowl after losing their QB, and after beating #7 Auburn last year, and run the table next year..... it would be criminal IMO to leave them out if there aren't 4 undefeated P5 teams.

Every season (in theory at least) is looked at individually. I don't care if UCF beats (overrated) LSU. If their schedule is still the weakest of the teams in contention that has to be a factor.

 

[ickythump1225]

Are you firmly convinced that the American is significantly worse than the ACC this year, outside of Clemson?

I'm not.

Well Clemson played a more difficult schedule even with a crappy ACC. They're also a more talented, dangerous team on both sides of the ball. Using any metric (SoS, talent, etc.) Clemson is the superior team.

 

[ickythump1225]

That's a great argument to put Georgia in over us. Lots of computer models say they're better. Hell, lots of models say Michigan and Ohio State are better than us, too. There's no credible argument to be made that we deserve to be in and UCF doesn't.


Teams don't get to choose their SOS. Shame on UCF for scheduling an FCS program, but Alabama and Clemson do that too, so I'm not sure you can hold it against them.

-UGA lost two games, we didn't. We also didn't play any FCS programs. OSU lost a game (by quite a large margin) and we beat Michigan. Team talent and the "eye test" aren't the only factors, but they are factors.

-Our argument against UCF rests on the fact that our SoS is significantly better than theirs.

-Alabama and Clemson also played a significantly harder schedule than UCF. They're also deeper and more talented and much teams.

When comparing teams close in talent, close in record, or teams that are both undefeated you have to use several metrics. There is no one silver bullet argument. Notre Dame is a better team than UCF and we played a harder schedule. If we drew them in the playoffs I would be delighted.

 

[wizards8507]

Well Clemson played a more difficult schedule even with a crappy ACC. They're also a more talented, dangerous team on both sides of the ball. Using any metric (SoS, talent, etc.) Clemson is the superior team.

I'm not saying UCF is better than Clemson. I'm saying UCF running through the American in the way they have has earned them a playoff spot. The #4 playoff spot, but a playoff spot nonetheless.

 

[wizards8507]

-UGA lost two games, we didn't. We also didn't play any FCS programs. OSU lost a game (by quite a large margin) and we beat Michigan. Team talent and the "eye test" aren't the only factors, but they are factors.

-Our argument against UCF rests on the fact that our SoS is significantly better than theirs.

-Alabama and Clemson also played a significantly harder schedule than UCF. They're also deeper and more talented and much teams.

When comparing teams close in talent, close in record, or teams that are both undefeated you have to use several metrics. There is no one silver bullet argument. Notre Dame is a better team than UCF and we played a harder schedule. If we drew them in the playoffs I would be delighted.

I'm not saying UCF deserves to be in over us. I'm saying they deserve to be in over Oklahoma.

It's either "best" or "most deserving." UCF is one of the most deserving. They're probably not one of the best, but neither are we. I think the only intellectually consistent positions are:

Alabama, Clemson, Notre Dame, UCF, OR

Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Oklahoma

The first four are the most deserving. The second four are the best. I don't think there's any rational case to include Notre Dame and exclude UCF. UCF got boned.

 

[ickythump1225]

It's not an either-or scenario though. You use a combination of metrics that range from the categories of "most deserving" and "best" to arrive at the four teams. At least that's how I read the committee's statements. ND is the right combination of "best" and "deserving" to make it in.

 

[Irish YJ]

It's not an either-or scenario though. You use a combination of metrics that range from the categories of "most deserving" and "best" to arrive at the four teams. At least that's how I read the committee's statements. ND is the right combination of "best" and "deserving" to make it in.

The problem is, best, or deserving, or combination, etc. All subjective and all impacted by each voters definition and bias. There are several times just this year (pretty sure I listed them in the CFP poll thread) where the committee said one thing, and did another. How many selection processes out there don't have auto qualifiers, or at least documented hard guidelines for at least a portion of the selected? Then throw in conferences (some of whom have schools that legally can't move up to a P5) that regardless of what they do, will almost always be looking from the outside in even if they are undefeated.

At best, it's greatly flawed. Fair is where you get cotton candy, but it's not fair either compared to just about every other sport out there.

In short, we should look to be as less flawed as possible, and be as fair and unbias as possible. After all, it is COLLEGE sports lol.

 

[NDRock]

I'm not saying UCF deserves to be in over us. I'm saying they deserve to be in over Oklahoma.

It's either "best" or "most deserving." UCF is one of the most deserving. They're probably not one of the best, but neither are we. I think the only intellectually consistent positions are:

Alabama, Clemson, Notre Dame, UCF, OR

Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, Oklahoma

The first four are the most deserving. The second four are the best. I don't think there's any rational case to include Notre Dame and exclude UCF. UCF got boned.

I honestly don't see how Oklahoma can be considered better than ND.

 

[ickythump1225]

I honestly don't see how Oklahoma can be considered better than ND.

Totally missed that. No way Oklahoma or their body of work can be considered superior to ND.

 

[ickythump1225]

The problem is, best, or deserving, or combination, etc. All subjective and all impacted by each voters definition and bias. There are several times just this year (pretty sure I listed them in the CFP poll thread) where the committee said one thing, and did another. How many selection processes out there don't have auto qualifiers, or at least documented hard guidelines for at least a portion of the selected? Then throw in conferences (some of whom have schools that legally can't move up to a P5) that regardless of what they do, will almost always be looking from the outside in even if they are undefeated.

At best, it's greatly flawed. Fair is where you get cotton candy, but it's not fair either compared to just about every other sport out there.

In short, we should look to be as less flawed as possible, and be as fair and unbias as possible. After all, it is COLLEGE sports lol.

Honestly I would just go back to the BCS, have the bowl season and then have the #1 and #2 after bowl season play in the NCG.

 

[NDRock]

Honestly I would just go back to the BCS, have the bowl season and then have the #1 and #2 after bowl season play in the NCG.

The problem with that is the years you had two clear cut undefeated teams at #1 and #2. Then, figuring out who the next deserving team would be after all the bowls could be problematic in some years. Really, the only way to stop the hand wringing is a playoff where all the potential winning teams make it. I think 8 would be fine but I'm sure there would still be teams feeling they got screwed.

 

[Irish YJ]

The problem with that is the years you had two clear cut undefeated teams at #1 and #2. Then, figuring out who the next deserving team would be after all the bowls could be problematic in some years. Really, the only way to stop the hand wringing is a playoff where all the potential winning teams make it. I think 8 would be fine but I'm sure there would still be teams feeling they got screwed.

8 would have the least complainers of all scenarios, past, present, and hypothetical.

here's a vote that was taken in 2014.

Of the coaches who voted in ESPN's weekly poll, 44 percent want an eight-team playoff, compared with 29 percent for the current four-team playoff. Some 17 percent want a 16-team playoff.

Of the 128 FBS coaches, 103 participated in this week's poll.

 

[wizards8507]

I honestly don't see how Oklahoma can be considered better than ND.

They're not in my opinion, but they are according to most of the computer ranking models I've seen except maybe Strength of Record and FPI, but FPI has Michigan and Ohio State ahead of both teams so it's obviously trash.

 

[wizards8507]

8 would have the least complainers of all scenarios, past, present, and hypothetical.

here's a vote that was taken in 2014.

The teams that are screwed going to 8 are teams 1-4, whose roads just got twice as difficult. Yes, it's a small number of teams getting screwed, but it's the most deserving teams getting screwed.

Should we REALLY have to face Ohio State before we prove we deserve to be in the semis? I don't think so. Should Clemson have to survive against Michigan, or have they done enough? Does anyone really think Saban should have to dick around with UCF?

 

[Irish YJ]

The teams that are screwed going to 8 are teams 1-4, whose roads just got twice as difficult. Yes, it's a small number of teams getting screwed, but it's the most deserving teams getting screwed.

Should we REALLY have to face Ohio State before we prove we deserve to be in the semis? I don't think so. Should Clemson have to survive against Michigan, or have they done enough? Does anyone really think Saban should have to dick around with UCF?

I read it a million times on this board that people want to avoid Bama at all cost in the first round so they can't spend a month prepping, and would be less fresh.....?
Same logic you're using to say it would be harder, is the same most ND fans use to say it's easier to win if we play Bama last and after only a week prep.

if the ceding was

Bama
Clemson
ND
OK
UGA
OSU
scUM
UCF

Would you rather Bama just have to play OK before us, or UCF and OK/UGA before us.

I'd be happy playing OSU and then Clemson after they beat scUM, or scUM should they somehow win, then Bama.

 

[NDRock]

The teams that are screwed going to 8 are teams 1-4, whose roads just got twice as difficult. Yes, it's a small number of teams getting screwed, but it's the most deserving teams getting screwed.

Should we REALLY have to face Ohio State before we prove we deserve to be in the semis? I don't think so. Should Clemson have to survive against Michigan, or have they done enough? Does anyone really think Saban should have to dick around with UCF?

Anytime you have a playoff (or even a Conference Champ. Game) you make the regular season a little less important. I think the current system will always have arguments about who gets in. To be honest, this was the least “fun” great season that I’ve watched ND play. I felt like I spent half the games worried that we weren’t winning by enough or passing some crazy “eye test” in which I had no idea what the parameters were. I probably just need to avoid all the shows, Twitter, this site during the season and just watch the games.

 

[wizards8507]

I read it a million times on this board that people want to avoid Bama at all cost in the first round so they can't spend a month prepping, and would be less fresh.....?
Same logic you're using to say it would be harder, is the same most ND fans use to say it's easier to win if we play Bama last and after only a week prep.

if the ceding was

Bama
Clemson
ND
OK
UGA
OSU
scUM
UCF

Would you rather Bama just have to play OK before us, or UCF and OK/UGA before us.

I'd be happy playing OSU and then Clemson after they beat scUM, or scUM should they somehow win, then Bama.

You don't design a playoff system with the goal being "screw Bama." It should be about trying to crown the best team in the country national champion.

And no, what you're suggesting is absurd. Beating Clemson and then Bama on extra rest is difficult. Beating Ohio State, then Clemson, THEN Bama on normal rest is much more difficult. Bama having extra rest isn't worth an entire additional game against a top 10 team.