Terror Attacks in Paris

[IrishLax]

Again, ... there are obviously reasons to keep molestors away from kids. The fact that a molestor "thinks" it is one thing. Acting on it is another.

Hypothetical...

Let's say you definitively know that someone has thoughts and beliefs that make them a pedophile. Maybe they've published a manifesto, maybe they belong to NAMBLA, or maybe they've just expressly told you that they feel that way.

Even if they haven't yet acted on those beliefs, would you be comfortable with them babysitting your child?

 

[ginman]

And we have a lot of people who want to come to this country and we select a small percentage to do so. If I am choosing I'm selecting the ones who are intelligent, tolerant, and believe in the ideals that this country was founded upon, which includes tolerance of others and other religions.

 

[Cackalacky]

Hypothetical...

Let's say you definitively know that someone has thoughts and beliefs that make them a pedophile. Maybe they've published a manifesto, maybe they belong to NAMBLA, or maybe they've just expressly told you that they feel that way.

Even if they haven't yet acted on those beliefs, would you be comfortable with them babysitting your child?

Not at all. I would reserve my right to not have them as a baby sitter. I would probably go so far as to warn my neighbors.

 

[wizards8507]

Not at all. I would reserve my right to not have them as a baby sitter. I would probably go so far as to warn my neighbors.

The United States denying immigration privileges to these people is no different than you denying a pedophile access to your home. There's no fundamental human right to be an American citizen.

 

[Legacy93]

Not at all. I would reserve my right to not have them as a baby sitter. I would probably go so far as to warn my neighbors.

Moreover, comparing the expectations most people would have for those to whom they are entrusting their children to the expectations to allow someone to immigrate is grossly unfair.

 

[Cackalacky]

And we have a lot of people who want to come to this country and we select a small percentage to do so. If I am choosing I'm selecting the ones who are intelligent, tolerant, and believe in the ideals that this country was founded upon, which includes tolerance of others and other religions.

Right. Me too. 100% agree. Now where is that on the immigration form and how do we prove it? How do we inform ourselves properly of people who want to come here? Do we single out Islamic people only? How about Southeast Asian Bhuddists?

How about the rising expression of Odinism by white supremacists who are rejecting their native Christianity in this country here already?

 

[wizards8507]

Moreover, comparing the expectations most people would have for those to whom they are entrusting their children to the expectations to allow someone to immigrate is grossly unfair.

Um, why? Obviously the connection to one's children is more emotional than the connection to one's fellow citizen, but potential harm to one is no more "okay" than potential harm to the other.

 

[ginman]

Wrong! We as a country have every right to be selective and responsible about letting In immigrants. To allow those in who have expressed a dislike for the ideals of this country is not only a right, but is the right thing to do to protect the citizens of this country.

 

[GoIrish41]

So why would we as a nation knowingly allow a group of people into our country when it's been shown over & over that many of them hate & despise us, have no intention of assimilating and contributing to our country, advocate the murder and extermination of a segment of our population, and almost certainly contain a significant number of people who have sworn to kill as many of us as they can and destroy our nation?

Sounds like a lot of people who are already in our country.

For the same reason that I don't think all white people should be rounded up and kicked out of the country because a small percentage are white supremists. It's why people were offended that Trump said that Mexicans were drug dealers, murderers and rapists. You can't point to the actions of a few who happen to be of the same faith or ethnicity and paint all of them with the same vile brush. And, you certainly cannot presume to know what people think because others who look or prey like them say they something hateful. There are millions of refugees, and they are looking for a place to be safe. As has been true of blacks, Irish, Jews, Germans, Asians, Indians and everyone else who has sought a better life in this country, we tend to go overboard when we say how they will be the ruination of our society.

 

[Legacy93]

The United States denying immigration privileges to these people is no different than you denying a pedophile access to your home. There's no fundamental human right to be an American citizen.

How is it fair to compare one's private property to access to a sovereign nation, one which most of us simply were granted access to by birth?
How about we change the hypothetical... Would you allow anyone, without knowing a single thing about them, to watch your children? Because, by birth, that is what is happening in the US. By being born in the US, one is a citizen, and thus has access to "come into your home", and you cannot choose their belief set and, in your analogy, "could be a pedophile". You simply have to accept their citizenship.

I'm not saying I disagree with immigration. I question the analogy... unless you believe that one cannot be a citizen by birth.

 

[NDgradstudent]

The NYT reports on a "Belgian" who was the mastermind of the attacks. It must have been this guy:

No, just kidding. Here is a photo of the actual "Belgian":

Those Belgians, always causing trouble...

 

[IrishLax]

The United States denying immigration privileges to these people is no different than you denying a pedophile access to your home. There's no fundamental human right to be an American citizen.

Nailed it.

For all American citizens, I respect their 1st Amendment and other rights. They can say and do whatever they want until it becomes criminal.

But there is absolutely no rationale that we must allow people into this country... especially if they harbor ideology that is definitively proven to be violent, supremacist, bigoted, and out-of-step with our culture.

 

[Cackalacky]

The United States denying immigration privileges to these people is no different than you denying a pedophile access to your home. There's no fundamental human right to be an American citizen.

Entering this country is a privilege. I don't disagree with that. And if the US can prove a person thinks these things... that's great. Not sure how they can do that though routinely and effictively.

Not sure I agree its equivalent to the pedophile case though. The US is not actively bombing or disrupting whole communities of pedophiles thereby creating more pedophiles... We are in fact doing that in many countries thereby creating more people who are anti-US under the guise of spreading democracy and nation building.

 

[Cackalacky]

Nailed it.

For all American citizens, I respect their 1st Amendment and other rights. They can say and do whatever they want until it becomes criminal.

But there is absolutely no rationale that we must allow people into this country... especially if they harbor ideology that is definitively proven to be violent, supremacist, bigoted, and out-of-step with our culture.

I agree whole heartedly and I have said that repeatedly so far.

Can one prove that they harbor those thoughts though....

 

[goldandblue]

Sounds like a lot of people who are already in our country.

For the same reason that I don't think all white people should be rounded up and kicked out of the country because a small percentage are white supremists. It's why people were offended that Trump said that Mexicans were drug dealers, murderers and rapists. You can't point to the actions of a few who happen to be of the same faith or ethnicity and paint all of them with the same vile brush. And, you certainly cannot presume to know what people think because others who look or prey like them say they something hateful. There are millions of refugees, and they are looking for a place to be safe. As has been true of blacks, Irish, Jews, Germans, Asians, Indians and everyone else who has sought a better life in this country, we tend to go overboard when we say how they will be the ruination of our society.

To someone else's point.... We agree that we would not let a child molester babysit our kids. To argue your point... You have 100 people. 5 of them are known to have child molesting tendencies. You either agree to bring all 100 into your home and babysit your kids or you agree to keep all 100 out???

 

[IrishLax]

I agree whole heartedly and I have aid that repeatedly so far.

Can you prove that they harbor those thoughts though....

Are they a devout Muslim?

 

[Cackalacky]

Are they a devout Muslim?

Devout necessarily equates to terrorism? That is a slippery slope.

 

[ginman]

Cackalacky - you are changing your argument. You initially said that you would not keep them out based on "their thinking" Now you are asking for screening measures which is entirely different.

 

[wizards8507]

Devout necessarily equates to terrorism? That is a slippery slope.

It doesn't matter. Let's go all the way down the slippery slope. If there's a 5% chance that someone is a terrorist or child molester or rapist, that's too high of a percentage.

 

[goldandblue]

It doesn't matter. Let's go all the way down the slippery slope. If there's a 5% chance that someone is a terrorist or child molester or rapist, that's too high of a percentage.

AGREED....

 

[GoIrish41]

To someone else's point.... We agree that we would not let a child molester babysit our kids. To argue your point... You have 100 people. 5 of them are known to have child molesting tendencies. You either agree to bring all 100 into your home and babysit your kids or you agree to keep all 100 out???

What are these child molesting tendancies that you speak of? They look like creeps? Spend too much time online? How do we know that 5 have these tendencies? I agree with Cack's point ... how to we know what any of these people think or feel?

Now, if someone comes out and says "Death to America" when they are being processed for entry into the country, they have to get back on the boat. No question. But the guilt by association of religion is way over the top.

 

[IrishLax]

Devout necessarily equates to terrorism? That is a slippery slope.

Devout Muslim doesn't = terrorist. Devout Muslim does = the above latent issues I mentioned.

It all comes back to the fact that any Muslim who fully adheres to all teachings and beliefs is supporting ultimate Islamic conquest of the entire globe... Muslim supremacy through violence, and slavery/extermination of non-believers.

That is Islam. That is what they teach. If you believe that, you should not be allowed in this country, IMO.

 

[gkIrish]

To someone else's point.... We agree that we would not let a child molester babysit our kids. To argue your point... You have 100 people. 5 of them are known to have child molesting tendencies. You either agree to bring all 100 into your home and babysit your kids or you agree to keep all 100 out???

This is basically where I am at. Who knows what the actual percentages are but if we know that a non-negligible amount of people from Syria or _____part of the world support terrorist ideology then it is in our best interest to keep them all out of this country. I would even argue we are obligated to do so. As I've said before, I have no problem with setting up refugee camps and developing a process by which refugees can come to America under supervision and restriction. But we can't just open up our borders with welcoming arms.

My parents are immigrants, btw, so I'm no anti-immigrant or anything like that. I'm just anti-recklessness.

 

[GoIrish41]

It doesn't matter. Let's go all the way down the slippery slope. If there's a 5% chance that someone is a terrorist or child molester or rapist, that's too high of a percentage.

Based on what?

 

[Legacy93]

AGREED....

There is a chance that every. single. person. that is granted citizenship could be a molester, rapist, or terrorist, irrespective of religion, race, former nationality, etc. You can't omit one group by that reasoning, because at the core, we cannot predict who will and will not be a terrorist, unless they personally do something to raise suspicion.

 

[Cackalacky]

Cackalacky - you are changing your argument. You initially said that you would not keep them out based on "their thinking" Now you are asking for screening measures which is entirely different.

I am not changing my argument at all adn I am not saying you MUST admit them. Its easy to check and see if they are on a watchlist, a part of a terrorist group, appeared on a jihadist video.... I am sure the intelligence community has a good grasp on the small portion of foreign nationals that fall under these categories. Now identifying those people who have had family members killed by drones or killed by armies supported by the US... I find those people will hard to identify.

My question has been how do you identify these people... not just limited to profiling Islamic people but any other people who may want to do harm to America.

 

[wizards8507]

This is basically where I am at. Who knows what the actual percentages are but if we know that a non-negligible amount of people from Syria or _____part of the world support terrorist ideology then it is in our best interest to keep them all out of this country. I would even argue we are obligated to do so. As I've said before, I have no problem with setting up refugee camps and developing a process by which refugees can come to America under supervision and restriction. But we can't just open up our borders with welcoming arms.

My parents are immigrants, btw, so I'm no anti-immigrant or anything like that. I'm just anti-recklessness.

Exactly. As I said earlier (maybe in another thread), immigration policy is about what's in the best interest of the citizen, not the immigrant.

 

[goldandblue]

What are these child molesting tendancies that you speak of? They look like creeps? Spend too much time online? How do we know that 5 have these tendencies? I agree with Cack's point ... how to we know what any of these people think or feel?

Now, if someone comes out and says "Death to America" when they are being processed for entry into the country, they have to get back on the boat. No question. But the guilt by association of religion is way over the top.

How do you feel about the ones that live here and make these statements?

 

[kmoose]

It's why people were offended that Trump said that Mexicans were drug dealers, murderers and rapists.

except that he never said that...

 

[Cackalacky]

It all comes back to the fact that any Muslim who fully adheres to all teachings and beliefs is supporting ultimate Islamic conquest of the entire globe... Muslim supremacy through violence, and slavery/extermination of non-believers.

That is Islam. That is what they teach. If you believe that, you should not be allowed in this country, IMO.

For me... this statement can apply to any number of groups of people all over the world. Its no different from people who are already here in this country either born or otherwise.