"SEC speed"

[IrishLax]

To get it out of Darby's thread...

SEC speed is unquestionably the biggest myth in college football. It used only when an SEC team holds an opponent to a low amount of points, never when they get lit up. You consistently see the talking heads rave on a team's speed and then the next week when they give up some points.

Combine results have shown, consistently, that while the SEC has its fair share of burners a lot of guys raved about for their speed are actually NOT fast. The truth is that they are just all-around better football players playing in a better/dominant defensive scheme. It has to do so much more about things like football instincts, lateral agility, explosion, etc. than it has to do with how much of a burner someone is when they get going. The truth is that on defensive you almost never run in a straight line or pursue for a considerable difference where "speed" really comes into play.

And for whoever tried to use Golden Tate as an example... ragging on his 4.41... you should realize he was tied for second fastest WR at the entire combine. And of the top 10 40s that year a whopping ONE was from the SEC. So that just completely destroys your argument.

Discuss! Argue! Have at it! Just not in Darby's thread.

 

[GainesvilleIrish]

I always though of SEC speed as more of being just good athletes rather than having quicker 40 times.

I just think the SEC just gets better overall players.

 

[jason_h537]

SEC Speed aint got **** on California speed.

 

[koonja]

This 'topic' isn't really necessary... Wollybug is probably the only person in the world that would say that the top SEC schools haven't had more speed at the skill positions than ND in the past...


Check the 'top performers' from the 40-yard dash since 2006. SEC = 25, ND = Zero

NFL Events: Combine Top Performers

 

[woolybug25]

This 'topic' isn't really necessary... Wollybug is probably the only person in the world that would say that the top SEC schools haven't had more speed at the skill positions than ND in the past...


Check the 'top performers' from the 40-yard dash since 2006. SEC = 25, ND = Zero

NFL Events: Combine Top Performers

I never said that, damnit. You said

1) The SEC is faster at every single position
then you backed off to
2) The SEC is faster at every single skill position
now you are saying
3) The SEC is faster at every skill position sans a couple exceptions.

What I said was that the SEC has had faster overall team speed as of late (three times I have said this), but we have players at the skill positions EVERY YEAR that compare well to the SEC. This is a fact.

Your link shows exactly what I am talking about. First of all, Darrin Walls time was at his pro day, so its not included, otherwise he would be on the list. The SEC does put out a lot of speed. But Notre Dame is ONE school, not an entire conference, so it is unfair to say "The SEC has 25 of the fastest players, ND has none", when we only one team. If we had 25 of the fastest players in this year's draft, then we would have had the best football team to have ever graced the universe.

We only had two skill positions that were draft propects this year, and both of them compare to SEC speed VERY well.

 

[koonja]

To get it out of Darby's thread...

SEC speed is unquestionably the biggest myth in college football. It used only when an SEC team holds an opponent to a low amount of points, never when they get lit up. You consistently see the talking heads rave on a team's speed and then the next week when they give up some points.

Combine results have shown, consistently, that while the SEC has its fair share of burners a lot of guys raved about for their speed are actually NOT fast. The truth is that they are just all-around better football players playing in a better/dominant defensive scheme. It has to do so much more about things like football instincts, lateral agility, explosion, etc. than it has to do with how much of a burner someone is when they get going. The truth is that on defensive you almost never run in a straight line or pursue for a considerable difference where "speed" really comes into play.

And for whoever tried to use Golden Tate as an example... ragging on his 4.41... you should realize he was tied for second fastest WR at the entire combine. And of the top 10 40s that year a whopping ONE was from the SEC. So that just completely destroys your argument.

Discuss! Argue! Have at it! Just not in Darby's thread.

I was well aware that Golden was the 2nd fastest WR at the combine, running a 4.37 unofficial and a 4.41 official. I was not ragging on him in anyway. I was simply pointing to one of our most recent fast stars, and making the factual point that not even he was a sub 4.4. Then I went on to say that we're not even close to overall team speed compared to the top SEC schools (Did you see the Weis era? how about the 2006 sugarbowl?), but that Darby is a step in the right direction.

 

[IrishLax]

This 'topic' isn't really necessary... Wollybug is probably the only person in the world that would say that the top SEC schools haven't had more speed at the skill positions than ND in the past...


Check the 'top performers' from the 40-yard dash since 2006. SEC = 25, ND = Zero

NFL Events: Combine Top Performers

Just curious why you would compare a 12 team conference to one school and consider that a justification of SEC speed.

 

[koonja]

I never said that, damnit. You said

1) The SEC is faster at every single position
then you backed off to
2) The SEC is faster at every single skill position
now you are saying
3) The SEC is faster at every skill position sans a couple exceptions.

What I said was that the SEC has had faster overall team speed as of late (three times I have said this), but we have players at the skill positions EVERY YEAR that compare well to the SEC. This is a fact.

Your link shows exactly what I am talking about. First of all, Darrin Walls time was at his pro day, so its not included, otherwise he would be on the list. The SEC does put out a lot of speed. But Notre Dame is ONE school, not an entire conference, so it is unfair to say "The SEC has 25 of the fastest players", when we only one team. If we had 25 of the fastest players in this year's draft, then we would have had the best football team to have ever graced the universe.

We only had two skill positions that were draft propects this year, and both of them compare to SEC speed VERY well.

That's what I'm trying to get across to you... You just said that "We only had two skill positions that were draft propects this year, and both of them compare to SEC speed VERY well". These are the 'exceptions' I keep mentioning. Top to bottom, top SEC teams have more speed at the skill positions, it's plain and simple! They have players on the bench that would outrun some ND starters in the past.

If you honestly think ND's skill position speed compares to a top SEC team, you need to stop drinking that red liquid in your thermometer... It's not good for you.

 

[koonja]

Just curious why you would compare a 12 team conference to one school and consider that a justification of SEC speed.

I thought about that, but I didn't know which SEC team I should choose... If you want to break it down, it was something like Florida 5, LSU 5, Mississippi a few, Auburn a few, ND Zip

 

[IrishLax]

Comparing the SEC against the rest of college football...

they go 1 for 9 in the top 9 times, but 5 for 15 in the top 15. Not sure how you're able to view the top 25, etc.

That's pretty good... but the ACC has 4 of the top 9 and 4 of the top 15... so it isn't very far behind. If you're trying to say that the Southeast typically has the fastest skill position players, then I agree with you.

However, what I hate is people who throw around the blanket term "SEC speed" as if it is the reason why that conference is so good. Because it isn't. Most of the stars (on both sides of the ball) in the SEC over the past 5 to 10 years have had very average to above average speed. Yes, there are plenty of exceptions, but it's the truth.

 

[IrishLax]

I thought about that, but I didn't know which SEC team I should choose... If you want to break it down, it was something like Florida 5, LSU 5, Mississippi a few, Auburn a few, ND Zip

Cool, how'd you get it to show the top 25? Won't go past top 15 for me when I include all of the years.

 

[koonja]

Comparing the SEC against the rest of college football...

they go 1 for 9 in the top 9 times, but 5 for 15 in the top 15. Not sure how you're able to view the top 25, etc.

That's pretty good... but the ACC has 4 of the top 9 and 4 of the top 15... so it isn't very far behind. If you're trying to say that the Southeast typically has the fastest skill position players, then I agree with you.

However, what I hate is people who throw around the blanket term "SEC speed" as if it is the reason why that conference is so good. Because it isn't. Most of the stars (on both sides of the ball) in the SEC over the past 5 to 10 years have had very average to above average speed. Yes, there are plenty of exceptions, but it's the truth.

I think we're close to the same page, but ND still doesn't have speed at the skill positions like top SEC schools, I'm sorry. And even if you think 'SEC speed' is a myth, most myths or rumors start from a kernel of the truth. Having said that, I sure as hell haven't ever heard someone refer to 'ND speed' unless it was an insulting reference. Darby is a step in the right direction, but let's not act like ND has been on par with top SEC schools when it comes to speed or explosion or whatever you want to call it.

 

[jason_h537]

However, what I hate is people who throw around the blanket term "SEC speed" as if it is the reason why that conference is so good. Because it isn't. Most of the stars (on both sides of the ball) in the SEC over the past 5 to 10 years have had very average to above average speed. Yes, there are plenty of exceptions, but it's the truth.

The whole idea of SEC Speed is nonsense. The real reason the SEC has been able to dominate the Big Ten is D-Line. They tend to have bigger more athletic dlineman than most conferences.

 

[koonja]

Cool, how'd you get it to show the top 25? Won't go past top 15 for me when I include all of the years.

I could only see the top 15 as well... I did the numbers in my head so it's 25, give or take 1, but it was zero for ND

 

[woolybug25]

That's what I'm trying to get across to you... You just said that "We only had two skill positions that were draft propects this year, and both of them compare to SEC speed VERY well". These are the 'exceptions' I keep mentioning. Top to bottom, top SEC teams have more speed at the skill positions, it's plain and simple! They have players on the bench that would outrun some ND starters in the past.

If you honestly think ND's skill position speed compares to a top SEC team, you need to stop drinking that red liquid in your thermometer... It's not good for you.

Again, you are using the entire SEC as your example. It's not an exeption if it happens every year. Every single year, Notre Dame have players at skill positions that are faster than their counterpart on INDIVIDUAL SEC teams. This doesn't mean that I think that ND is overall faster than any of them, but there will be some guys that compare favorably.

If you lined up ND against any SEC team last year, we had comparable speed with AT LEAST two positions (Kyle, Darrin), sometimes more, and its a fact. Was our team overall faster, maybe (we were faster last year than Ols Miss, Vandy, TN), but there were also several teams had overall faster teams (LSU, UG, UF, Bama, etc) as well.

You continue to use 12 teams fastest players combined to somehow make a point that Notre Dame lacks overall team speed.

 

[woolybug25]

I thought about that, but I didn't know which SEC team I should choose... If you want to break it down, it was something like Florida 5, LSU 5, Mississippi a few, Auburn a few, ND Zip

Again, Darrin Walls' 40 was timed at his Pro Day, not the combine. Thats why its not in there. If it was, he would be on the list.

Rudolph isnt one of the fastest OVERALL players, but what TE is? He was one of the fastest in the draft and the #1 TE taken.

 

[koonja]

Again, you are using the entire SEC as your example. It's not an exeption if it happens every year. Every single year, Notre Dame have players at skill positions that are faster than their counterpart on INDIVIDUAL SEC teams. This doesn't mean that I think that ND is overall faster than any of them, but there will be some guys that compare favorably.

If you lined up ND against any SEC team last year, we had comparable speed with AT LEAST two positions (Kyle, Darrin), sometimes more, and its a fact. Was our team overall faster, maybe (we were faster last year than Ols Miss, Vandy, TN), but there were also several teams had overall faster teams (LSU, UG, UF, Bama, etc) as well.

You continue to use 12 teams fastest players combined to somehow make a point that Notre Dame lacks overall team speed.

If you read above you will know why I used a 12 team reference, and I guestimated the breakdown with FLA, LSU, Auburn. And

 

[koonja]

Again, Darrin Walls' 40 was timed at his Pro Day, not the combine. Thats why its not in there. If it was, he would be on the list.

Rudolph isnt one of the fastest OVERALL players, but what TE is? He was one of the fastest in the draft and the #1 TE taken.

So I didn't count Darrin's because he wasn't at the pro day.... Hmm, I wonder how many SEC players times didn't show up because they too, were not at the combine...

And you said line up ND vs any SEC school and it'd be comparable at at leats 2 positions (Darrin, Rudolph)... I'll choose LSU. Patrick Peterson, 4.34. Deangelo Peterson TE, lsu, 4.55 according to scout. (I believe Rudolph ran like a 4.8, if I'm not mistaken)

Scout.com: DeAngelo Peterson Profile

 

[IrishLax]

The whole idea of SEC Speed is nonsense. The real reason the SEC has been able to dominate the Big Ten is D-Line. They tend to have bigger more athletic dlineman than most conferences.

Exactly. It's because they have more athletic players (athletic != "speed") at the point of attack and they can man handle teams up front that are either:

1. Quick and small
2. Plodding and big

I'm glad we're on the same page. And I think kuehjna isn't really that far off either now that we've broken down what he saying into a more granular position.

 

[koonja]

Honestly, I'm never going to accept that in the recent past, ND has been comparable to the top SEC school's team speed... Whoever thinks I'm wrong can have the last laugh. At least we can all agree that we have the fastest kid in the 2012 class coming to ND, and no matter how you think we compare to the top SEC schools speed-wise, it's a step in the right direction.

 

[military_irish]

The way I see it, is if you can't catch, can't tackle, or have poor coaching. Then frankly speed means nothing at all.

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

It's the obvious trickle down effect... A pass rushing/run stopping D-Line will always make the LBs and DB's look better because of rushed, forced, inaccurate throws and obvious run/pass situations. Tuitt, Nix, Lynch and the quality depth on the line will do exactly that..

 

[Old Man Mike]

For a small [probably unhelpful] piece of historical context to this shouting match: The "SEC speed" thing did not occur in the SEC at all. It began with the rise of Miami and Florida State. These two teams demonstrated something that wasn't believed by the Old Boys Coaching Fraternity: that smaller faster players at linebacker could make your life miserable by covering sideline to sideline and meeting your sweeps in the backfield, and chasing down your student-body-lefts from the backside.

Miami and Florida State built their programs [at that time essentially] on "no relevancy" academic "standards" and thereby began a football culture wherein certain young people could aspire to millions just by playing ball [in imitation of the basketball culture]. This culture grew into the legend of "Florida Speed" which was facilitated by actual athletic "training" for youngsters [both programs, formal and informal, and ad hoc weight-training young].

The SEC caught wind of this easily as their thunder was being stolen by the two thug-schools and chased after them, lowering their own standards even further. Big Ten presidents didn't want to go there, nor did ND, causing occasional "strategy dust-ups" between ADs and coaches [even Lou had some]. Finally the Texas schools followed, and we have what we have today. While all this was happening, teams like VT caved to the pressures and began recruiting "Miami-like" players in order to catch and pass them [which they did in both ACC titles and length of rap sheets]. Silent cavers like Tressel and OSU followed.

The Miami/ Florida State "model" is partly based on, particularly, defensive field-coverage, but partly on defensive line athletic power [more than speed --- think Warren Sapp, fast enough but that's not where he lived]. On offense, the Miami/FSU and SEC models rely less on raw speed than brutal lines and quarterback play. It's nice to have Percy Harvin, but really, few teams ever do.

Big Ten and ND fell behind the Florida meat-wagons and the other SEC because of a whole variety of factors, but the one related to this thread was sideline-to-sideline defensive coverage and D-Backs and OLBs who could intercept balls and take them to the house. The most impressive difference between a good version of those teams [and not all of them are at all good] is the visual of their DEFENSE running the ball into the endzone. When VT took over from Miami/FSU that phenomenon, and Beamer-Ball, became the caricature image of their team.

 

[pkt77242]

The whole idea of SEC Speed is nonsense. The real reason the SEC has been able to dominate the Big Ten is D-Line. They tend to have bigger more athletic dlineman than most conferences.

This

Florida, LSU, Alabama, Auburn etc dominate because their DL is big and fast. Think of Nick Fairley, Carlos Dunlap, Jermaine Cunningham, Drake Nevis, Glen Dorsey, Ricky Jean-Francois, etc.

Kind of like what Aaron Lynch did to our OL during the spring game.

 

[irishfan]

The last 5 years, I've essentially thought that every SEC school outside of Vandy and Kentucky has had more speed/freak athleticism than ND. Not saying more skill per se, but that those teams all passed the "look" test more so than ND. Even when teams like Ole Miss or MSU were crappy, I still thought that they had much more impressive d-lines and linebackers. Just my opinion. And ya, I would be worried playing any SEC team outside of Vandy/Kentucky right now.

 

[kmoose]

The thing that most people are leaving out, in this discussion, is the difference between football speed and straight line speed. 40 yard dash times seperated by tenths of seconds can be misleading. A guy who has great 40 times can often play slower than a guy who is just a bit behind him (in the 40 times). Football speed is as much about knowing where you are supposed to be, and anticipating, as it is about any physiology.

 

[jmurphy75]

Amen Moose! When people say SEC speed they don't mean let's compare each players 40 time. It's speed of the game they play, football speed.

 

[D-BOE34]

Manti, Lynch, Ishaq, Tuitt, Spond and Shembo will, in my eyes, show an entire new level of "speed" than we have seen recently. No they don't run 4.4 40's but they play the ball very well. Even Golson was quoted as saying when you have to read hand off or keep it on a QB option against Lynch, he is on you before your mind can process the proper move. Yes he is a true freshman and hasn't built his mind to slow the speed of the game but he is much quicker than Lynch. You would think he could just keep it and burn Lynch while hoping for the best when he turns the corner. Lynch's angle to the ball and spread wins that battle, for now. I can definitely agree football speed is more important than 40 speed. A guy like Darby or Atkinson who have the speed with the field intelligence can develop into a sick player. Well, the SEC is full of over-signed classes of these same types and can hand pick from those who develop and win. That is why the SEC is unmatched for now. Talent, football speed and poor judgment of the boys they recruit will keep them up top for a bit.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Sorry guys, but SEC speed is absolutely real (and I HATE the SEC and I thought the Pac 10 was a better overall conference a couple of years ago). I don't need a timer to tell me that...I can just watch the game with my eyes and tell you that. Watch an LSU-Alabama game or a FL-Auburn game and tell me that they're not faster than most schools. The Alabam spring game was a like night and day from ND's (I know, it rained in SB). I mean, seriously, ND isn't even in the same ballpark yet. Did you guys not witness the LSU demolition of ND a few years back?

And it's not just an SEC thing. Oregon is incredibly fast, and USC has been lightning in the 2000's. Hell, Oregon State DESTROYED Ty's ND team and you could see the stark difference in athleticism. And as OMM said, Miami and FSU were doing it before the SEC.

So in my eyes, SEC speed is not a myth. I'm not talking 40 times, but I'm talking with the naked eye, any football fan with any knowledge of the game can see that they play a much faster game than many teams in the country. And don't sleep on the speed of teams like Oregon and FSU. The fact that the SEC schools don't care if you can spell your own name much less graduate makes me sick, but this is the world we live in.

 

[IrishLax]

Sorry guys, but SEC speed is absolutely real (and I HATE the SEC and I thought the Pac 10 was a better overall conference a couple of years ago). I don't need a timer to tell me that...I can just watch the game with my eyes and tell you that. Watch an LSU-Alabama game or a FL-Auburn game and tell me that they're not faster than most schools. The Alabam spring game was a like night and day from ND's (I know, it rained in SB). I mean, seriously, ND isn't even in the same ballpark yet. Did you guys not witness the LSU demolition of ND a few years back?

And it's not just an SEC thing. Oregon is incredibly fast, and USC has been lightning in the 2000's. Hell, Oregon State DESTROYED Ty's ND team and you could see the stark difference in athleticism. And as OMM said, Miami and FSU were doing it before the SEC.

So in my eyes, SEC speed is not a myth. I'm not talking 40 times, but I'm talking with the naked eye, any football fan with any knowledge of the game can see that they play a much faster game than many teams in the country. And don't sleep on the speed of teams like Oregon and FSU. The fact that the SEC schools don't care if you can spell your own name much less graduate makes me sick, but this is the world we live in.

But that's the problem because what spawned this debate was the fact that some people were directly equating 40 times/in-line straight speed to "SEC speed"... and frankly analysts do the same thing all the time. I don't think anyone is arguing that a defense like Alabama's with all of that freak athleticism (see: Marcell Dareus) plays better or "faster" than Notre Dame's defense. The point that we were trying to originally make was that the the term "SEC speed" is a misnomer. What makes these teams awesome is their overall athleticism... more so on the defensive line and front 7 than any of the "speed" or "skill" positions.

So, to the original point from the Darby profile that spawned this thread, adding a couple burners like Darby or guys that can run a sub-4.4 will do nothing to change us into an "SEC team." More than anything a guy like Ishaq Williams is a step in the right direction because he is insanely athletic with great range. Analysts who have been saying for years that the problem with our defense is a lack of "speed" really don't get it.... the problem has been more constant changes in scheme, conditioning, the whole S&C program/mindset towards getting "big", and our athletes along the DL/front 7. By the same token, pay close attention to how analysts will rave on a team's "SEC speed" when they are in low scoring affairs but the moment they get lit up by another team in conference they go mum.

Also, that Oregon State was awesome because they had two pro bowl wide receivers and a pro bowl quarterback.... and that Irish team had no business being 10-2 with its anemic offense. The best player on that offense, Chad Johnson, is actually quite slow but just a great player.