Sean Payton suspended for one year

[RyCo1983]

The penalties are 100% justified in my eyes...

Wooly...I def. think you hate the commish...lol

I must respectfully disagree with you though...this has nothing to do with "sissyfying" the game...these guys are "professionals" and need to act as such.

 

[Green Mountains]

The NFL press release stated that Payton hindered the investigation and Williams lied about the bounty program during the investigation.

Some (most?) of the punishment is related to the coverup activities which apparently took place in recent weeks. Now we can call it Bounty-gate.

 

[DaBLKIrishman]

If player safety was the most important thing than they would be playing touch football. Don't worry, at this rate, Goodell will have that on the next CBA.

Preach!!!!!!!!!

 

[DaBLKIrishman]

The penalties are 100% justified in my eyes...

Wooly...I def. think you hate the commish...lol

I must respectfully disagree with you though...this has nothing to do with "sissyfying" the game...these guys are "professionals" and need to act as such.

I don't see the logic in saying that this isn't professional. It isn't golf. It's football and like hockey it's a modern time gladiator sport. Now don't get me wrong hitting after the whistle in order to intentionally injure someone is dead wrong and very cowardly but in between those whistles it's all out war for lack of a better term. I'm sure all teams do this in the NFL. Just like they do on every level. The only difference is they are on the professional level therefore there is a monetary incentive. In college and high school you get decals on your helmet and lots of praise in the film room. Point being how was there "bounty" system any different from getting buckeyes on your helmet at Ohio State or any other program and I'm willing to bet our beloved ND has some sort of praise for the big hits in games.

 

[JD Irish]

What baffles me is that much of the NFL lockout was the players unwilling to play 18 games because they "would not compromise on player safety." Yet they engage in these bounty programs, and it's the coaches that get blamed and punished.

 

[military_irish]

The reason I see the punishment justified is the fact that past players are suing the NFL because of injuries they sustained while playing. So if they are essentially doing it to themselves, in a sense, they have no reason to complain.


It's a contact sport, suck it up and deal with it. Just sue later in life when you have brain trauma. Makes sense.


Also, just because a bounty program is in "every" locker room still doesn't make it right. People sell crack everywhere in the streets, so should no one get punished because it is so prevalent?

 

[woolybug25]

Again, to everyone, i'm not saying that Payton shouldn't be punished. What he did was against the rules. My beef is two fold, first of all, there is a belief that this hasn't been part of the game. It has indeed been part of the game from the start of the NFL. Like it, hate it, whatever... but that's the reality. Your favorite NFL has most likely had a bounty system some time in your lifetime. Furthermore, as evidenced by the quotes I provided earlier from Favre and Warner, the guys that were targeted even feel that it is part of the game.

Secondly, I think military_irish unknowingly gave me a great example for my argument.

Also, just because a bounty program is in "every" locker room still doesn't make it right. People sell crack everywhere in the streets, so should no one get punished because it is so prevalent?

Using this analogy, I don't believe Payton is the one selling crack. He is selling pot to his buddies. Bellicheck on the other hand, is selling crack to kids at the local high school. Both are illegal, but drastically different in scope. The police (Goodell) caught both and is sending Payton to prison while making Bellicheck pick up trash for an afternoon and writing an apology letter.

Goodell is a crock of sh!t...

 

[NDinFL]

I understand where you're coming from wooly, just seems like you hating on Goodell more than anything.

I agree that Belichick should have gotten it way worse than he did, and Payton deserves the hammer just as much.

Just because this has been in/around the league for years does. not. make. it. ok.

 

[military_irish]

Again, to everyone, i'm not saying that Payton shouldn't be punished. What he did was against the rules. My beef is two fold, first of all, there is a belief that this hasn't been part of the game. It has indeed been part of the game from the start of the NFL. Like it, hate it, whatever... but that's the reality. Your favorite NFL has most likely had a bounty system some time in your lifetime. Furthermore, as evidenced by the quotes I provided earlier from Favre and Warner, the guys that were targeted even feel that it is part of the game.

Secondly, I think military_irish unknowingly gave me a great example for my argument.



Using this analogy, I don't believe Payton is the one selling crack. He is selling pot to his buddies. Bellicheck on the other hand, is selling crack to kids at the local high school. Both are illegal, but drastically different in scope. The police (Goodell) caught both and is sending Payton to prison while making Bellicheck pick up trash for an afternoon and writing an apology letter.

Goodell is a crock of sh!t...

Something else popped in my head about the selling crack analogy. (Sorry, that was the only analogy I could think of at the time.)

The way I see it is that Bellicheck and Payton were the kingpins that never did the dirt but reaped all the benefits from their little "minions" doing the dirty work.

The difference being once arrested (caught) Bellicheck cooperates with the cops (NFL). Where as in the initial investigation Payton lied and tried to cover up his wrong doings.

So in a sense Bellicheck took a plea deal and Payton took the chance of going to trial. Then was found guilty resulting in harsher penalties.

 

[GUknights75]

I don't see the logic in saying that this isn't professional. It isn't golf. It's football and like hockey it's a modern time gladiator sport. Now don't get me wrong hitting after the whistle in order to intentionally injure someone is dead wrong and very cowardly but in between those whistles it's all out war for lack of a better term. I'm sure all teams do this in the NFL. Just like they do on every level. The only difference is they are on the professional level therefore there is a monetary incentive. In college and high school you get decals on your helmet and lots of praise in the film room. Point being how was there "bounty" system any different from getting buckeyes on your helmet at Ohio State or any other program and I'm willing to bet our beloved ND has some sort of praise for the big hits in games.

The point is that they are already being paid millions of dollars to do that in the first place. If they got paid bonuses for making the game winning TD catch, or a game saving sack as time runs out it's basically the same thing except the safety issue. These guys already get paid to do this, and there should be no extra incentives/bonuses to motivate the players.

If you want to motivate players tell them you will take away 5 K for that game(if it were legal) because they quit playing or showed a lack of effort. Maybe then guys like Jamarcus Russel would actually still have a career.

Look I played college football and I can gurentee you that yes this stuff goes on, maybe not being paid for it but it is encouraged by some coaches. My former head coach who used to be the assistant head coach at LSU, always told us that "the second string guy isn't as good as the guy out on the field"and I can gurentee you that on the bottom of piles people are twisting eachothers ancles and hyper-extending other players knees and punches to the groin....I never intentionally set out to hurt someone, though I did play dirty at moments (as you could see in my avatar) but I did it to push them out of the way, not injure them. I wanted them to get off the field, but not b/c they were hurt but b/c they were sick of me kicking their a**, I played the game because I love the sport and the intensity, not for the praise and recognition. Those types of people are called selfish.....

And Military_Irish pretty much told you the entire reasoning behind Goddell's actions. Players are sueing the NFL b/c they weren't safe......

 

[BobD]

I haven't read every post in this thread yet, so I'm not sure if it's already been said......this is like Watergate, Nixon's biggest problem wasn't what he did, it was that he got caught.

 

[irishtrain]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of regarding the NFL. They have been doing this for 50 years in this league. What's next touch football-really man its football. Play the game at your own risk-honestly this is just stupid. And please dont tell me well what would you do if they jacked your #1 QB-I'd put in the #2. Sounds to me like a women is running the league. Matter of fact I'll bet some women even think this is ridiculous.

 

[TDHeysus]

I haven't read every post in this thread yet, so I'm not sure if it's already been said......this is like Watergate, Nixon's biggest problem wasn't what he did, it was that he got caught.

this will get the hammer dropped on you:

NFL says Payton told assistant to get ducks in a row - New Orleans Saints - CBSSports.com RapidReports

"The NFL said GM Mickey Loomis advised Sean Payton that the league office was investigating allegations concerning a bounty program. According to the NFL Payton met with former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams and current LB coach Joe Vitt, in advance of an interview with league investigators and told them, “Let's make sure our ducks are in a row.” Payton later told investigators that he never had a meeting like that with Williams and Vitt. "

 

[Irishnuke]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of regarding the NFL. They have been doing this for 50 years in this league. What's next touch football-really man its football. Play the game at your own risk-honestly this is just stupid. And please dont tell me well what would you do if they jacked your #1 QB-I'd put in the #2. Sounds to me like a women is running the league. Matter of fact I'll bet some women even think this is ridiculous.

How many of those players that were targeted over the past 50 years have permanent damage because of concussions? The NFL is evolving because it needs to. Retired players lives are being cut short because of repeated blows to the head. But you're right, those guys are probably just pussies.

 

[NDinFL]

How many of those players that were targeted over the past 50 years have permanent damage because of concussions? The NFL is evolving because it needs to. Retired players lives are being cut short because of repeated blows to the head. But you're right, those guys are probably just pussies.

Yes, a thousand times yes

This

This

New study on brain injuries to test 100 former NFL players - ESPN

This is the best example

An excerpt: "You're writing about a man who is one hell of a man," George says. "He's honest to a fault. Some people say he was too good to too many people. One guy told me, 'If he wants to be a good, good guy, he needs a devil on his shoulder. Why don't you be the devil?' " Larry Morris never could be the devil. Now, he's in a living hell. Poof. All that glory, gone.



Read more: John Mackey and other retired NFL players experience living hell - NFL - Sporting News

It's a human being's life.

Read those and then tell me that Goodell is wrong.

Nuke, GREAT post

 

[woolybug25]

How many of those players that were targeted over the past 50 years have permanent damage because of concussions? The NFL is evolving because it needs to. Retired players lives are being cut short because of repeated blows to the head. But you're right, those guys are probably just pussies.

How are concussions connected to bounties? I was unaware that there is some connection with bounties actually causing more concussions. Most of the damage retired players have are results of multiple concussions, but more so, repeated impact to the head. A career of banging your head against hard objects will do that to you. That continuous impact to the head is part of the game. So I don't see how this is connected to bounties. Furthermore, many of those same retired players took part in bounties themselves. Two of which (Favre and Warner) said they see nothing wrong with it.

The whole safety thing is a facade. As I said before, if the league really cared about player safety, then why are they trying to force more games in to the schedule and refusing to look at the Riddell helmet contract despite much safer options being available? Changing the helmet to a safer model would drastically impact player safety, punishing bounties will have absolutely zero impact on the amount of concussions in the league. The league cares about money and that is what all of this is about.

 

[irishog77]

How are concussions connected to bounties? Most of the damage retired players have are results of multiple concussion, but more so, repeated impact to the head. That continuous impact to the head is part of the game. So I don't see how this is connected to bounties. Furthermore, many of those same retired players took part in bounties themselves. Two of which (Favre and Warner) said they see nothing wrong with it.

The whole safety thing is a facade. As I said before, if the league really cared about player safety, then why are they trying to force more games in to the schedule and refusing to look at the Riddell helmet contract despite much safer options being available. The league cares about money and that is what all of this is about.

In Warner's interview on the NFL Network last night, this is not at all the impression one gets.

 

[woolybug25]

In Warner's interview on the NFL Network last night, this is not at all the impression one gets.

He sounds like a guy out for Payton's head.

“I think that’s part of the game, and I think that’s part of the mindset,” Warner said. “And I’m not going to tell you that I haven’t believed that there was probably defensive players that got together and said, ‘Hey, you know, a thousand bucks for the first guy to knock Kurt out of a football game.’ I’m sure that’s been a part of our league for a long time.”

 

[irishog77]

Again, not what he said 3 weeks ago or whenever-- what he said last night. Particularly watch from about the 1:50 mark on.

"There's no place in the game of football for that."

NFL Videos: Warner reacts to Saints bounty punishments

 

[NDinFL]

What do concussions have to do with bounties?

Let's say that a receiver is crossing the middle and a safety lays him out...

2 different scenarios here:

A. The safety realizes that said receiver has a 10,000 dollar bounty on his head, says "**** the helmet-to-helmet collision rules" and blasts the dude

B. A split second before trying to go for the kill shot hit, the safety remembers what happens to players who intentionally hit other players like this, not to mention there is no extra motivation through a reward, and the safety changes his objective

 

[woolybug25]

What do concussions have to do with bounties?

Let's say that a receiver is crossing the middle and a safety lays him out...

2 different scenarios here:

A. The safety realizes that said receiver has a 10,000 dollar bounty on his head, says "**** the helmet-to-helmet collision rules" and blasts the dude

B. A split second before trying to go for the kill shot hit, the safety remembers what happens to players who intentionally hit other players like this, not to mention there is no extra motivation through a reward, and the safety changes his objective

As I said, most of the players that have long term damage from the game have it because of repeated blows over the course of their career. Second of all, what dirty hits are we talking about with the Saints? They have been in the bottom half of the league in penalties for the last 5 years. Bounties simply did not correlate to illegal hits as many of you are implying. Players aren't stupid enough to risk $500k fines for a $5k bounty.

Just because a player is trying to knock a player out of the game, doesn't mean that they plan on doing it illegally. As I mentioned before, if you are a pass rusher that isn't trying to take the opposing QB out of the game (legally of course), then you wont be in the league for very long.

 

[NDinFL]

As I said, most of the players that have long term damage from the game have it because of repeated blows over the course of their career. Second of all, what dirty hits are we talking about with the Saints? They have been in the bottom half of the league in penalties for the last 5 years. Bounties simply did not correlate to illegal hits as many of you are implying. Players aren't stupid enough to risk $500k fines for a $5k bounty.

Just because a player is trying to knock a player out of the game, doesn't mean that they plan on doing it illegally. As I mentioned before, if you are a pass rusher that isn't trying to take the opposing QB out of the game (legally of course), then you wont be in the league for very long.

It doesn't have to be penalized to be classified as "dirty",

I remember a handful of years back Rodney Harrison actually dislocated his shoulder while face-masking Marvin Harrison, yet not a flag was thrown....

I was using my prior example as a generality, not trying to cite specific hits over the course of 3 years.

 

[irishog77]

As I said, most of the players that have long term damage from the game have it because of repeated blows over the course of their career. Second of all, what dirty hits are we talking about with the Saints? They have been in the bottom half of the league in penalties for the last 5 years. Bounties simply did not correlate to illegal hits as many of you are implying. Players aren't stupid enough to risk $500k fines for a $5k bounty.

Just because a player is trying to knock a player out of the game, doesn't mean that they plan on doing it illegally. As I mentioned before, if you are a pass rusher that isn't trying to take the opposing QB out of the game (legally of course), then you wont be in the league for very long.

I don't think anybody (I'm not at, at least) is really arguing that, Wooly. Why people keep coming back at you is because earlier on in the thread, you said the penalty was BS and tried to help rationalize your argument by saying it goes on across the league and is a part of the history of the game. I haven't made one statement, personally, of whether I agree with any of this or not, but these are the facts of the case that I and others see and are arguing:
-The Saints team knowingly engaged in an illegal activity for at least 3 years
-The Saints management tried to cover it up
-The Saints management lied to the commissioner about it (and why would Payton feel the need to lie to Goodell about something that is a perfectly fine practice to engage in??)
-The Saints team and management were punished by their superiors for these actions (and Vilma and probably some other players will be levied a punishment too)

So I say to you-- did USC get screwed by the NCAA for their violations of rules? I mean come on, did Reggie Bush really get an unfair advantage by having his family's house paid for? This type of stuff goes on everywhere and it's been going on since the inception of college football and "amateur" athletics. So really, the NCAA punishment was bullsh!t because we can't prove Reggie Bush played better because of his illegal benefit, the USC football team and/or athletic department spit in the face over the practice to their governing body because it's really unjust to have these players "only" getting a scholarship that covers their academic pursuit, and everybody else has been doing it since the dawn of the game?

You're starting to sound like Col. Jessup admitting you ordered the Code Red, but see no reason whatsoever why you were wrong to do so.
(And now let's wait for the obligatory Top-10 movie line of all time coming in 5...4...3...)

 

[NDinFL]

This^

 

[woolybug25]

I never said that he shouldn't have been punished, I have not said that a single time. What I have said is that a year suspension is BS for breaking a rule that is pretty much a blue law in the NFL. He shouldnt have been punished as harsh as he did for something like this. that is all. This is also especcially BS considering they let Bellicheck off for breaking real rules against the nature of the game.

This has no relation to USC.

 

[NDinFL]

I never said that he shouldn't have been punished, I have not said that a single time. What I have said is that a year suspension is BS for breaking a rule that is pretty much a blue law in the NFL. He shouldnt have been punished as harsh as he did for something like this. that is all. This is also especcially BS considering they let Bellicheck off for breaking real rules against the nature of the game.

This has no relation to USC.

I get what you're saying...

It just seems like you're trying to almost defend Payton, Williams, and their bounty bullshit by saying that "it's been around the league and blah blah blah".

I understand and know it's probably been around. I got that.

That doesn't mean it's right or shouldn't be punished.

 

[irishog77]

I never said that he shouldn't have been punished, I have not said that a single time. What I have said is that a year suspension is BS for breaking a rule that is pretty much a blue law in the NFL. He shouldnt have been punished as harsh as he did for something like this. that is all. This is also especcially BS considering they let Bellicheck off for breaking real rules against the nature of the game.

This has no relation to USC.

On the surface, no it doesn't. But also on the surface, Spygate doesn't necessarily have a relation to this either (I mean, should we bring up Paul Hornung and Alex Karras' suspensions as well? Michael Vick's? Marge Schott's?)

Why I brought USC up and the NCAA (going back really early in this thread) is because people on this site bash the NCAA for not actually incentivizing schools, individuals, and programs from engaging in illegal behavior (whether the rules are "just" or not), but yet here was a clear example of the commissioner of the NFL offering a clear incentive for others not to engage in illegal behavior (nor lie and try to cover it up to him). Personally, I applaud Roger Goodell for coming down hard against an organization that was cheating (I'll give you that it was over a debatable rule...BUT A RULE nonetheless) and sending a message to the entire league that if you get caught lying and cheating, then prepare to suffer the serious consequences. I think the NCAA could learn A LOT from him and the NFL when it comes to this.

 

[Irishnuke]

I never said that he shouldn't have been punished, I have not said that a single time. What I have said is that a year suspension is BS for breaking a rule that is pretty much a blue law in the NFL. He shouldnt have been punished as harsh as he did for something like this. that is all. This is also especcially BS considering they let Bellicheck off for breaking real rules against the nature of the game.

This has no relation to USC.

This has no relation to Bill Belicheck.

 

[woolybug25]

This has no relation to Bill Belicheck.

What? They are both recent penalties handed down by Roger Goodell, both directly tied to head coach. I really have no idea how you do not see how they are related. I guess all of the sports reporters that have been comparing them these last few weeks must be crazy.

 

[GUknights75]

What? They are both recent penalties handed down by Roger Goodell, both directly tied to head coach. I really have no idea how you do not see how they are related. I guess all of the sports reporters that have been comparing them these last few weeks must be crazy.

The point is Belicheck didn't LIE to Goddell during the investigation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how many times must this be said and you not respond to it..........The reporters keep comparing the situations b\c they LIKE Payton as a person and have a good relationship with him, so they bring it up to relieve some pressure on him and point their fingers at Goddell....

The commissioner made it clear that player safety is the biggest concern around the league, now I don't agree with every penalty that has been given, but knowing that he is looking for things like this and then to LIE about it........No matter who the coach is, they need to be made an example of.

Like Military Irish said, in terms of the legal system, Belicheck might have been selling crack but he decided to cooperate and took the lesser charge because of it. Payton on the other hand is selling weed (because everyone does it, just like the bounty rule) but he doesn't cooperate, and tries to cover up his wrong doings but then it gets proved. He will receive the MAX. penalty.

There is no conspiracy theory here.....

Get it?