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I mean, I'm right there with you on a lot of your posts, but you see how the bolded isn't exactly a paradox, right? The state monopolizes the right to use force; that's not a bug in the system, it's arguably the defining feature of the system.

While I do not enjoy reading the stories of people gunned down by cops, they do not worry me on a moral level. In a nation of 300 million with serious problems with crime and firearms, the efficient number of innocents killed by police is probably >0. There are at least 120,000 full time law enforcement officers in the US, some error is inevitable.

What worries me is that both perceived and real patterns of discrimination by our police force is eroding the trust large swaths of our country has in it. Obviously, this process has been going on for a while now (arguably forever) but these shootings and the publicity they have received have only served to accelerate that break down in trust. In fact, that broken trust is evident in the events surrounding a lot of these incidents. People here question why Brown and others showed such a reckless disregard for the authority of the law enforcement officers who ended up killing them, and I think a lack of trust is a big reason.

I get that there are going to be different standards for what cops can do with regards to lethal force and what non-LEOs can do. However, cops do go over the limit on force necessary to arrest, yet don't face any punishment or even a rebuking.

There is no trust with the police in young people. At all. It's already almost completely eroded, especially among black people and poorer people. The trust has been lost when cops became less and less involved in the community. Cops should have to live in the city they patrol.
 

IrishinSyria

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People don't get locked up for being poor! They get locked up for breaking the law. Being poor is no excuse to break the law, or to not be punished for breaking the law. Not sure why that is such a hard concept for you to comprehend.

So when Tommy Rees "struck an officer in the midsection with his knee" you wouldn't have thought it was an overreaction if they shot him? You must have posted on here about how he should be getting "locked up for breaking the law" right? Same with every other Notre Dame student who has drank before 21, experimented with weed, or provided minors with alcohol.
 

BobD

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I wonder how many crimes are committed to support drug habits?
 

kmoose

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So when Tommy Rees "struck an officer in the midsection with his knee" you wouldn't have thought it was an overreaction if they shot him? You must have posted on here about how he should be getting "locked up for breaking the law" right? Same with every other Notre Dame student who has drank before 21, experimented with weed, or provided minors with alcohol.

How about you calm down and compare apples to apples, please. No, I do not think that it would have been justified for Rees to have been shot over that. And, no, I did not post on here about he should be getting "locked up for breaking the law". But I'm not sure why I would? My comment about people being locked up for breaking the law was not some diatribe about how every person who breaks the law in the slightest way ought to be locked up. It was in response to the assertion that drug offenders get locked up because they are poor. There are plenty of poor people out there, every day, who DON'T get locked up. So being poor is not a crime that results in imprisonment. Stop weakening people by perpetuating the myth that there is no way out of poverty for someone born into a poor inner city neighborhood. Stop perpetuating the myth that they have no choice. It's certainly not easy, and not every kid will be able to make it. But it beats perpetuating the victim mentality.
 
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I wonder how many crimes are committed to support drug habits?

Giving more options for treatment and taking away long prison sentences for it would reduce crime. Like I said, in Portugal, more people seek treatment for drug problems. That means they aren't stealing to support their habits but looking to break the habits.
 

GDomer09

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I wonder how many crimes are committed to support drug habits?

What people who don't have someone close to them who have experienced this, it's hard for them to understand.

ONE just ONE drug offense, something as simple as having a controlled level 1 narcotic on you (not selling) can be a Felony, something that stays on your record forever. So no matter how quick you turn your life around your record is forever tarnished.

My example is a relative of mine. He was buying a pill that actually helps curb his addiction as he was struggling heavily. A cop was tipped off, pulled him over and he got the felony for the controlled substance. Within the next weeks he went cold turkey and followed that up with 2 degrees while working construction. He's a role model for "Pulling your boot straps up", and getting back on the right track from years of addiction.

Now with 2 degrees and his whole life ahead of him he can't get a job in his field and is stuck making low pay working construction job while paying for all of his debt from college. The only way he's made ends meet is continuing college to get his masters to hold off the loan payments. Not sure what will happen when his masters is complete but the felony will still be there and I don't have much hope for him getting the job he's worked so hard for.

So I ask you and anyone here. How does this make him, any addict or this country any better?
 
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The Real Reasons Many White People Can't Empathize With Ferguson, Racial Disparities, or Black Suffering | H. A. Goodman

I recently had the pleasure of appearing on HuffPost Live with Marc Lamont Hill to discuss the Michael Brown tragedy and my blog post, "Ferguson and Race From White America's Perspective, If It Switched Places With Black America." During the discussion, Mr. Hill asked me a question that epitomizes the lack of outrage expressed by some Americans over the shooting deaths of Michael Brown, Renisha McBride, Trayvon Martin, and the death by chokehold of Eric Garner:

"Why is it so difficult for white Americans, or the nation as a whole, to internalize black pain?"

Why isn't 77 percent of this country outraged over the fact that 27 percent of blacks live in poverty, the almost non-existent job growth in areas where blacks live (like certain regions of Milwaukee), or the reality that blacks face 20 percent longer jail sentences than whites for the same offenses? Interestingly, the Tea Party has called Obamacare tyranny, the GOP is suing the president, and a Georgia Congressman claimed Obama has waged a "war on whites," but not much is said on Fox, Breitbart, or the Blaze about the tremendous economic, social, and judicial disparities between black and white citizens in this country.

There are several reasons for the lack of empathy that Congress (85 percent white and mostly male) as well as the rest of America has shown its fellow black citizens. First, the phrase "white America" and "black America" really aren't entirely accurate, considering that we have a black president with 69 percent of his administration composed of white liberals. The author of this article is white and the vast majority of white people in the U.S. despise the KKK, racist rhetoric like "welfare queens" or the n-word, and other overtly bigoted aspects of our history.

However, one reason it's difficult for any person to truly empathize with another human being, let alone with millions of people, is that empathy requires questioning one's reality. If I put myself completely in the shoes of Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown, or even a black man denied the opportunity to board a taxi cab, I must accept the reality that my world and my America isn't their world and their America. I must also question certain principles that ease my mind, like racism in America is nonexistent, or that my legal system applies to everyone equally and justly. For many citizens, especially certain white conservative voters, such empathy would lead to an emphasis on questioning the status quo, and doing so might also mean facing the prospect of our nation being less than exceptional.

Another reason for such lack of empathy is that empathy inevitable leads to a myriad of unsavory emotions. With empathy comes responsibility and culpability, self-reflection, sometimes guilt, oftentimes anger, and almost always a certain amount of regret; especially if you voted for laws or supported a political system where racial disparities contradict ideals that are dear to your heart. Then there's the issue of simply surviving daily life without the burden of thinking about another American's pain; especially if like many Americans you struggle just to keep your marriage intact, or your kids in college, or simply live another day. For example, the mentality stating, "I've worked hard, stayed out of trouble, and face the daily grind of existence, so why should I care about the suffering of others when life is difficult enough as it is?"

Also, it's difficult to place yourself in the shoes of another person who knows what it feels like to be followed in a convenience store by the owner, or asked if they really want to buy a certain item, or the hundreds of years of inequality that blacks have faced in our history. It's far easier to simply believe that your side is entirely right, your way of seeing the world is just, you work harder than those less fortunate, and that others are responsible entirely for their fate. After all, with everything going on in Ferguson and with all the issues faced by blacks in this country, 50 Cent is now feuding with Floyd Mayweather on the internet, so why should I care if even wealthy black celebrities don't? Why should I care about black America if rappers call black women "bitches" and flaunt a new Lamborghini in videos instead of promoting more positive messages to black youth? Life is difficult, with everyone in the U.S. experience his or her own elevated levels of stress and unhappiness at some point, so adding more stress (in the form of empathy) or discomfort simply isn't preferable to apathy, or overtly blaming others for their fate.

When Jeb Bush said undocumented immigrants cross the border as "an act of love," he not only displayed empathy, but also alluded to the fact that these human beings aren't evil, or blood sucking sponges that bankrupt the country. To many Americans, Jeb Bush's comments showed too much consideration, and far too much empathy, because his sentiment bordered on accusing America of holding some responsibility, or some culpability for the lack of a functioning immigration system. Like the issue of black suffering, it's easier to simply say "they did it to themselves," or "they're law breakers" or Michael Brown wasn't an angel so he deserved his fate.

Yet another possible reason many people refuse to empathize with black suffering is tied directly into why Ann Coulter is a bestselling author, or why Sean Hannity cut and ran from Cliven Bundy after calling him a hero, or why Bill O'Reilly would rather blame Beyoncé than read a book on sociology. Bill O'Reilly, the right's culture warrior, speaks to a great many citizens by simplifying the complex issues of racial disparities, as described by his own words in the following Salon.com article:

"Now I submit to you that you're gonna have to get people like Jay Z, Kanye West, all these gangsta rappers, to knock it off," O'Reilly told Jarrett.
"Listen to me, listen to me, listen to me," O'Reilly said while interrupting Jarrett. "You gotta get them where they live. They idolize these guys with the hats on backwards, and the terrible rap lyrics and the drugs and all of that."
"I want Michelle Obama to come on this program, right here," O'Reilly intoned. "And I want Michelle Obama to look into that camera and say, 'You teenage girls? Stop having sex. Stop getting pregnant. It's wrong.' Do you think she would?"

So, according to the conservative pundit, African-American teen mothers caused the loss of manufacturing jobs within inner cities, the 27 percent of poverty African-Americans face, the fact that the average black household has a net worth of just over $6,000 compared to over $90,000 for white households, the issue of longer sentences for the same crimes, and a host of other issues unrelated to the sexual habits of teenagers. Of course, you'll never hear from Fox News, Sean Hannity, or Bill O'Reilly that David T. Ellwood, dean of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, has explained that "less than 10 percent of welfare recipients live in big-city ghettos, so the bulk of the welfare problem cannot be attributed to the demoralizing effects of these communities." It's easier to blame the victim than it is to accept the fact that not everyone has a fair chance at success in America.

Finally, euphemisms like "rush to judgment" and "jump to conclusions" always seem to surround the shooting death of unarmed black people, but never around whether Obamacare will end up working, or if Cliven Bundy is a hero (Sean Hannity quickly abandoned the same man he rushed to judge as a hero), and certainly not before the OJ verdict. Then of course there was the lady in Texas mugged by an Obama supporter in 2008 who who carved a "B" into her face, which was picked up as a legitimate story by conservative sites, but strangely the phrase "let's not rush to judgment" was never used until it was found to be a hoax.

When tragedy is intertwined with politics, and economic disparities fly directly in the face of American ideals, many citizens would rather cling to cherished values than accept the possibility of their America being different from black America. For this reason, as well as many other possible reasons, it might always be difficult for many white Americans to truly empathize with the plight of their fellow black Americans.
 
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B3t199PCYAAKQiW.jpg


Rams Players Enter Field With "Hands Up, Don't Shoot"
 

NDRock

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Have no problem with these guys using their platform to "send a message". Hopefully these five will use some of the $11.6 million they are making this year to positively affect these underprivileged areas.
 

Irish#1

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Such compassion. Dealing and using drugs doesn't directly impact others. Why should people go to prison for dealing marijuana or LSD or shrooms when they are less harmful than tobacco or alcohol? It's ridiculous that they are illegal in the first place. The prisons are overcrowded, and our crappy prison system just breeds violent criminals. People are looking for money and deal drugs. It's out of desperation for most people, or that's what they know. Or it's the only way they've seen someone become successful. Get rid of the drug war, and I guarantee that overdoses on heroin/cocaine and drug-related violence will go down. You can't complain about drug-related violence or drug dealing if that's your take. "Stop it, just stop it." Look for solutions instead of just saying no.

I'll just let the the bold part speak for itself.
 

tommyIRISH23

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I'll just let the the bold part speak for itself.

Lol is that guy serious? No one gets hurt from people dealing drugs besides the families that are crushed bc of drug addicts, neighborhoods destroyed by drug dealers to the point where innocent people are gunned down everyday and can't go outside out of fear. Innocent peoples homes are taken and the owners paid a nominal "fee" for housing weapons and large quantities of drugs but in reality they are submit out of fear.

The 6-8% of criminals in inner cities do much more damage to poor families. Single mothers working 3 jobs to get buy- you'd think the older folk would look out for the 10-15 years old and keep them on the right track by staying in school but no, they use their gangster image and pay the little 10 year old 50$ a day to skip school and be a lookout. Within a few years the 10 year old moves up to a corner boy making 1000$ a week, next he is a set manager making 2000$ a week. Next he's dead or in jail. It's not a black/Hispanic/white only problem; it's a poverty problem. This gangster lifestyle is romanticized in the cities and moving into the burbs. Kids idolize these pieces of shit and are used by them.

You want to have a discussion about racism and all this other bs? There's much bigger problems that are growing frighteningly fast. I did a mini study; my college professors told me that most inner city kids get involved in crime bc they lack other opportunities and options. And if they were presented with another route which was prosperous; they would take it. So I tried. I offered 10 kids between the ages of 16-19 an opportunity to attend a college tech school program offered by a local community college where they would get a free ride, I'd do all the paperwork, all they had to do was show up to meet the counselor. I got them out of jail. Not 1 showed up or reached out. They all went AWOL and ended up getting caught selling heroin.

The street life has gone from a "last resort" to a romanticized ambition. Terrifying.
 
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All of those are indirect ways that people are harmed that can be helped by ending the war on drugs for the most part. More people in Portugal seek treatment and less kids use drugs.
 

Bishop2b5

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Here's an even better solution: don't start using in the first place. Has anyone ever bettered their life by doing heroin, crack, coke, meth, etc.? If I drive 80 on icy roads, who's fault is it when I crash? I shouldn't have made such a stupid decision to do something everybody knows is going to end badly. Why should anyone else have to pay my medical bills or repair my car. Take some personal friggin' responsibility! Be accountable for your actions. Stop doing stupid shit and then saying the solution is that somebody else should pay to fix the problem. Don't do the dumb shit to create the problem in the first place. It's called being an adult and being responsible for the choices you make.
 

Booslum31

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I agree with you Bishop. I also think this thread has gotten a bit crazy.
 
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Grahambo

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I'm all for open dialogue and what not but this is misleading because most of the witnesses were proven wrong by evidence and forensics. In fact, I believe they said that most of the witnesses that showed up didn't actually see what happened and the few people that did see supported Officer Wilson.

Not trying to bait or argue because that's not my style but let's look at the facts without having a predetermined outlook.

Did you see the story of one of the witnesses who was murdered the other night?
 
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I'm all for open dialogue and what not but this is misleading because most of the witnesses were proven wrong by evidence and forensics. In fact, I believe they said that most of the witnesses that showed up didn't actually see what happened and the few people that did see supported Officer Wilson.

Not trying to bait or argue because that's not my style but let's look at the facts without having a predetermined outlook.

Did you see the story of one of the witnesses who was murdered the other night?

There's really no firm evidence to say that his hands weren't up. There have been split reactions on what the evidence does show, which is why this should have gone to court. Some witnesses were proven false, but not all of them.
 

Bishop2b5

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I agree with you Bishop. I also think this thread has gotten a bit crazy.

It has. I think the people on either side of this issue genuinely just see the world in a totally different way that's virtually incomprehensible to the other.
 
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Manslaughter Charge Dropped For Police Officer Who Fatally Shot Sleeping 7-Year-Old

The dismissal of the manslaughter charge against a Detroit police officer who fatally shot a sleeping child will stand, an appeals court ruled Monday.

Detroit Police Officer Joseph Weekley has been on trial for involuntary manslaughter in the death of Aiyana Stanley-Jones, 7, who was killed during a police raid in 2010. On Friday, Wayne County Circuit Court Judge Cynthia Gray Hathaway granted a motion filed by Weekley's attorney to dismiss the felony charge. The trial was halted while the Michigan Court of Appeals reviewed an emergency appeal of the judge's ruling. But the court denied the appeal Monday.

Presiding Judge Michael Talbot issued the order, saying that the appeals court was not able to review the decision because the trial court had granted the defense's motion to drop the manslaughter charge orally and in a written order before there was an appellate review.

"Although I find that the trial court erred in form and substance in granting defendant's motion for directed verdict, we are barred from reviewing that decision," Talbot wrote.

The prosecution has filed an emergency motion for reconsideration with the appeals court.

Roland Lawrence, chairman of the Justice for Aiyana Committee, issued a statement Monday following the court's decision.

"Surely, the death of a baby by a well-trained police force must be deemed unacceptable in a civilized society," Lawrence said.

Steve Fishman, Weekley's attorney, said in court Friday that the prosecution had not presented evidence that could lead a jury to find his client guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

"There is absolutely no evidence, none, that's in the least bit credible, that Officer Weekley knowingly created a danger or, more importantly, intended to cause injury," Fishman said.

A little after midnight on May 16, 2010, a special police team conducting a raid in search of a murder suspect entered the Stanley-Jones home on Detroit's east side. Weekley was first through the door, a role he had previously taken on in about 100 raids. As a crew filmed for a reality show about murder investigations, another officer is said to have thrown a flash-bang grenade, temporarily blinding Weekley. Shortly after, Weekley fired the shot that killed Aiyana, who was sleeping on the couch in the front room at the time.

The girl's grandmother, Mertilla Jones, was on the couch with her, and Weekley has maintained that she struck his gun, causing him to shoot Aiyana. Jones testified that she did not touch the gun.

The prosecution sought to show that Weekley was acting improperly and in violation of training by keeping his finger on the trigger of his submachine gun.

"He could have avoided injury if he had followed his training," Assistant Wayne County Prosecutor Robert Moran said in court Friday. "He didn't, and as a result of him not following his training and not following the mandates of ordinary care, someone was killed."

Weekley still faces the misdemeanor charge of careless discharge of a firearm causing death. He was first tried for involuntary manslaughter last year, when a hung jury caused a mistrial.

Preferential treatment for a cop. This is a textbook definition of involuntary manslaughter.
 

Grahambo

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There's really no firm evidence to say that his hands weren't up. There have been split reactions on what the evidence does show, which is why this should have gone to court. Some witnesses were proven false, but not all of them.


3 different forensic reports state the same thing. And it all supported the same side. I don't have a dog in the fight except for facts. Facts and only facts. It'll lead you to the truth.

Nobody enjoys the fact that a life was lost. I've been involved in a police shooting and it's not fun. But stick to the facts in this case.

Police brutality as a whole? Different animal. Let's hear what kind of change you want to see across the various police departments.
 

phgreek

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I'm all for open dialogue and what not but this is misleading because most of the witnesses were proven wrong by evidence and forensics. In fact, I believe they said that most of the witnesses that showed up didn't actually see what happened and the few people that did see supported Officer Wilson.

Not trying to bait or argue because that's not my style but let's look at the facts without having a predetermined outlook.

Did you see the story of one of the witnesses who was murdered the other night?

yes...not really getting any play anywhere but online...seems unclear if he was related directly to grand jury, however the chief of police seemed to allude to reasonable suspicion...If he was on the Grand Jury, and someone killed him...this is on all the people who perpetuate the myths and crank up the rhetoric...

Need to protect witnesses and jurors at all costs
 

Irish Insanity

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I haven't been in this thread for a few days. Forgive me as I'm sure it's been discussed, but why would anyone have an issue with the Rams coming out of the tunnel in the manor they did.
 

BobD

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3 different forensic reports state the same thing. And it all supported the same side. I don't have a dog in the fight except for facts. Facts and only facts. It'll lead you to the truth.

Nobody enjoys the fact that a life was lost. I've been involved in a police shooting and it's not fun. But stick to the facts in this case.

Police brutality as a whole? Different animal. Let's hear what kind of change you want to see across the various police departments.



The kind of change protesters want: Let thugs do whatever they want. It doesn't matter what activities they're involved in, if they're black nobody should approach them.

What they're going to get: Appeasement with less protection in some areas of their cities because nobody wants to deal with this shit.

In the end things will be worse for communities that need help the most.
 

Irish#1

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kmoose

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BGIF

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I haven't been in this thread for a few days. Forgive me as I'm sure it's been discussed, but why would anyone have an issue with the Rams coming out of the tunnel in the manor they did.

The 5 Rams manner was reinforcing the lie perpetuated in this thread that Brown was a docile, law abiding teenager shot while complying with an officer contrary to the forensics and testimony presented to the Grand Jury.

Here's the text:

"St. Louis, Missouri (November 30, 2014) – The St. Louis Police Officers Association is profoundly disappointed with the members of the St. Louis Rams football team who chose to ignore the mountains of evidence released from the St. Louis County Grand Jury this week and engage in a display that police officers around the nation found tasteless, offensive and inflammatory.
"Five members of the Rams entered the field today exhibiting the "hands-up-don't-shoot" pose that has been adopted by protestors who accused Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson of murdering Michael Brown. The gesture has become synonymous with assertions that Michael Brown was innocent of any wrongdoing and attempting to surrender peacefully when Wilson, according to some now-discredited witnesses, gunned him down in cold blood.
"SLPOA Business Manager Jeff Roorda said, "now that the evidence is in and Officer Wilson's account has been verified by physical and ballistic evidence as well as eye-witness testimony, which led the grand jury to conclude that no probable cause existed that Wilson engaged in any wrongdoing, it is unthinkable that hometown athletes would so publicly perpetuate a narrative that has been disproven over-and-over again."
 
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