Rioting in St Louis

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Bishop2b5

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What? Justifiable murder? Without due process? No trial? The Police's MO should always be to capture and detain when at all possible. The absolute last action should be to use deadly force. If they default to use of weapons they are basically vigilantes and not providing the service they are intended to provide.

We'd all rather see a criminal contained & detained versus getting shot & killed, but what do you do when attempts to non-lethally apprehend or restrain a criminal or suspect fail? Not every situation is a clean and simple as a training video or an episode of a TV show. Not all cops carry tasers. They're only a one-shot tool. They aren't effective against a group, a person with a gun standing several feet away, or a person with some cover, and if you attempt to use them against a charging assailant and miss, you're now defenseless and probably have no time to still draw your service weapon. They're good for some situations, but not all by any means. Pepper spray is virtually useless against someone jacked up on meth or pcp, or against someone armed with a gun standing more than a few feet away.

When a suspect grabs for something in their pocket or car, an officer usually has less than a second to determine if it's a cell phone, their wallet, a walking stick, a knife, or a gun. If they hesitate and make the wrong decision, they die. It's not realistically possible to determine in that split second if that's a real gun or a plastic toy one. For this reason, every state allows a police officer to use deadly force in that situation, and most people know not to do anything that could be reasonably interpreted as reaching for a weapon.

Attempting to wrestle an armed assailant to the ground and subdue him is exceptionally dangerous. Most cops aren't Chuck Norris and it's not an episode of Walker, Texas Ranger in the real world. I don't want to see cops abuse their power and I sure don't want to see them shoot someone unnecessarily, but it's just not possible in the real world with things happening in a flash and with innocent lives at risk, to always just contain and detain.
 

phgreek

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What? Justifiable murder? Without due process? No trial? The Police's MO should always be to capture and detain when at all possible. The absolute last action should be to use deadly force. If they default to use of weapons they are basically vigilantes and not providing the service they are intended to provide.

This discussion is absurd. There was context to deadly force...

Look, no one said cops should shoot first. Or should not try to contain and detain by non-lethal methods. The largest majority of confrontations end w/o the use of deadly force. Wanna talk about what should be in terms of protocols...fine but vilifying cops operating under their current standards/protocols is counter productive.

There are times and circumstance where simply running away does not de-escalate things for the cops...in fact it makes it worse. Like say...lunging at them with a sword and running away with the sword...Once things have escalated to where the person is seen as a threat, the only way to de-escalate is for said person to separate themselves from the weapon or surrender. Done, end of discussion. Would all cops have shot Darien...no, would every single cop who would have shot him been justified, hell yes. Acting like a Moron and wishing for the cop who wouldn't shoot is just ...well...playing roulette with your own ass.
 

BGIF

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I'm a middle class white guy who today purchased a large coffee at Dunkin Donuts. Served by a black woman. On Black Friday. Basically the most racist thing I've ever done in my life.

NJNP, it might make the local paper tomorrow and fit into your "systematic" or "institutional" mechanism file. Keep a look out.


Was the coffee black or diverse?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Was the coffee black or diverse?

The young woman tried offering it straight up black. I ofcourse asked for extra cream to balance everything out. I would've tipped her, but I was really looking for her to compliment the confederate flag sticker on my car and she didn't, so no dice.
 

phgreek

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Everyone is willing to believe the lunging even though the cops lied routinely earlier.

ok...please insert allegedly everywhere I said that. And assume Darien Hunt references are hypothetical situations to support my point about escalating things with cops until such a time NJNP is satisfied Darien Hunt provoked the cops that shot him...Please do not hold your collective breath.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I was rattled by his strong contribution to the thread.

Most of us on here have had substantive dialogue. Some of us spent a few posts pointing out how inaccurate you were in so many posts and how outlandish your philosophies were on life. Many tuned you out a few days ago because everyone and everything is racist, and if you're not on board with that, you're wrong.

There's no point.
 
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Cackalacky

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Too much bias to wade through here but obviously cops have a tough job and idiots make their job harder. Non-lethal measures should be the default position always. It is increasingly obvious that non-lethal measures are not the default no are they exhausted in order to apprehend suspects. For a bunch of people who will hold the constitution Upon High for all matters other than guns, a criminal still has rights no matter his actions and he has a right to not be field judged and executed. He also does not waive these rights by default. He also may or may not fully understand the situation at hand. Officers do not have our permission to dispense justice. It is just a bit too easy to shoot someone right now. I don't care what color, gender, pay scale or anything else.
 
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Cackalacky

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Most of us on here have had substantive dialogue. Some of us spent a few posts pointing out how inaccurate you were in so many posts and how outlandish your philosophies were on life. Many tuned you out a few days ago because everyone and everything is racist, and if you're not on board with that, you're wrong.

There's no point.

After catching up in this thread, this is how I picture some of you guys

1440toilet_redneck.jpg


;)
 
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Most of us on here have had substantive dialogue. Some of us spent a few posts pointing out how inaccurate you were in so many posts and how outlandish your philosophies were on life. Many tuned you out a few days ago because everyone and everything is racist, and if you're not on board with that, you're wrong.

There's no point.

There's no point to anything so we all better get used to it.
 

phgreek

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After catching up in this thread, this is how I picture some of you guys

1440toilet_redneck.jpg


;)

my trailer is camo...that toilet is too luxurious, and I have a flock of plastic flamingos...

...thus be the modern discourse...agree or I cast ye stupid and backward ... hows that approach workin' ?
 

Bishop2b5

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NJNP, let's drop the rhetoric and just have an honest discussion without anyone engaging in inflammatory accusations, hyperbole, grinding an axe, or promoting an agenda. I don't know what your motives are. I assume you're attempting to enlighten and change opinions, but I'm also aware that you could just be venting, trolling, or engaging in a study for a psychology paper to gauge attitudes or opinions about all this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're simply trying to engage in a meaningful discussion about race and the police, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm very confident that most or all of the others here, as well as most people around the country feel the same way. I don't ever want to see a police officer abuse his position. I don't want to see an officer shoot anyone unnecessarily. I sure don't want to see him shoot an innocent person.

I, and most Whites, don't hate Blacks. We don't think a black person's life is less valuable than a white persons. We're not in favor of cops killing blacks who did nothing wrong (nor killing ANYONE of any race who hasn't done anything wrong).

I believe that most police officers are trying to do a tough job under difficult circumstances to the best of their ability, but I'm not so naïve as to believe all them are. I can understand why many Blacks are distrustful of the police. However, going into every encounter with the police while having a challenging attitude or assuming they're going to mistreat you only ratchets up the tension and contributes to further bad interactions.

You want the police to be more sensitive and understanding towards the Black community and take into account the not always good history between the two, but that's a two-way street. Respect, decency, honesty, and cool heads are needed from BOTH sides.

To assert that most cops are just looking to be abusive to Blacks, all shootings of Blacks by cops is racially motivated and unjustified murder, or insinuate that most Whites are racist and OK with it, is not only wrong, but counterproductive, and no better than the racist redneck who makes derogatory, racist comments about Blacks.

There is good and bad on both sides of these issues. I believe with all my heart that most cops, most Blacks, and most Whites are not racist and are trying to do the right thing most of the time. There is room for improvement and we all can do better, though. Blanket condemnations of any group, dishonest spinning of events, misrepresentation of the facts, and prejudiced expectations from any of us only further the divides and add fuel to the fire. We all want to see things be better across the board and for some things to change. That starts with each of us on a personal level, though. Be the change you want to see.
 
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Cackalacky

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my trailer is camo...that toilet is too luxurious, and I have a flock of plastic flamingos...

...thus be the modern discourse...agree or I cast ye stupid and backward ... hows that approach workin' ?

Right? It doesn't seem to be working at all. I recommend a reboot.
 

BGIF

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Too much bias to wade through here but obviously cops have a tough job and idiots make their job harder. Non-lethal measures should be the default position always. It is increasingly obvious that non-lethal measures are not the default no are they exhausted in order to apprehend suspects. For a bunch of people who will hold the constitution Upon High for all matters other than guns, a criminal still has rights no matter his actions and he has a right to not be field judged and executed. He also does not waive these rights by default. He also may or may not fully understand the situation at hand. Officers do not have our permission to dispense justice. It is just a bit too easy to shoot someone right now. I don't care what color, gender, pay scale or anything else.

Right now? Au contraire. History disagrees. Frontier times. Gangs of New York. "Only law west of the Pecos." Dodge City. Deadwood. Tombstone. Vigilantes. Lynchings. Bounty hunters. The Klan. Rosewood. The Roaring 20's. Prohibition. Capone. Purple Gang. Street gangs. "West Side Story." Drug cartels. Etc, etc.

There are more guns today but there are ubiquitous security camera, cell phones, dash cams, coupled with Internal Affairs, Citizen Review Boards, Civil Rights, litiginous attorneys, 24/7 news, activists, Internet bloggers, etc. etc.

There has never been a time in history when law officials by any name have faced more accountability than they do today.
 
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Ferguson testimony shows inconsistencies, unorthodox forensic practices - Chicago Tribune

When Ferguson, Missouri, police officer Darren Wilson left the scene of the shooting of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, the officer returned to the police station unescorted, washed blood off his hands and placed his recently fired pistol into an evidence bag himself.

Such seemingly unorthodox forensic practices emerged from the voluminous testimony released in the aftermath of a grand jury decision Monday night not to indict Wilson.

The transcript showed that local officers who interviewed Wilson immediately after the shooting did not tape the conversations and sometimes conducted them with other police personnel present. An investigator with the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's office testified that he opted not to take measurements at the crime scene.

"I got there, it was self-explanatory what happened," said the investigator, whose name was not released, in his grand jury testimony. "Somebody shot somebody. There was no question as to any distances or anything of that nature at the time I was there."

The investigator, described as a 25-year veteran, did not take his own photographs at the scene of the shooting because his camera battery was dead, he said. Instead, he relied on photographs shot by the St. Louis County Police Department.

The medical examiner and Ferguson Police Department did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

When Wilson returned to the police department after the shooting, he was permitted to drive by himself. No one photographed his bloodied hands before he washed up at the station because "there was no photographer available."

Later, injuries to Wilson's head caused by punches he said were thrown by Brown were photographed by a local detective at the Fraternal Order of Police building, not at police headquarters.

An FBI agent interviewed by the grand jury said he did tape his interview with Wilson. The agent, who was not identified, said Wilson washed up immediately after the shooting because he was worried about the danger presented by some one else's blood, not about preserving evidence.

"His concern was not of evidence, but as a biohazard or what possible blood hazards it might attract," said the agent, who like other witnesses was not identified by name.

At the crime scene, the medical examiner did not see stippling, the residue of gunpowder on clothing that can indicate shots fired at close range. Eventually an autopsy found evidence of stippling.

In the extended interviews, prosecutors do not come across as particularly aggressive or curious. But they do question police procedures on a couple of occasions, including the failure by Ferguson and St. Louis County investigators to tape their interviews with the officer after the shooting.

Why not tape these answers? a detective with St. Louis County was asked. "It is just common practice that we do not," the detective said.

Prosecutors also asked why Wilson was permitted to handle evidence in the case himself. "He had informed me that after he responded to the police station, he had packaged his weapon and then he directed my attention to an evidence envelope,'' said the St. Louis County detective. Is it customary for the person who was involved in such an incident "to handle and package their own gun as evidence?" the detective was asked.

Not according to the rules of the St. Louis County Police Department, the detective said. But Ferguson may have had its own rules, the detective said. He was not aware of "any policies or procedures they have in place" on the topic.

"Darren Wilson had told me that he had packaged the weapon and it was currently in that evidence bag," the detective told the grand jury. "Now, at that point in time I never checked to verify that, it was done later," the detective said.

The accounts occasionally revealed inconsistencies. For example, two investigators who interviewed Wilson immediately after the incident said Wilson told them only one shot was fired by Wilson from inside the Chevy Tahoe police cruiser.

But in his testimony, Wilson said two shots were fired inside the car, among several misfires.

The shots and misfires preceded the fatal shooting of Brown on the street a few moments later. The shots were fired from the car after Wilson said Brown had reached in to the vehicle, swinging at the officer and grabbing for his pistol.

Wilson described Brown as having the intimidating size of "Hulk Hogan." At one point, he said, Brown pushed his pistol down toward the floor, eventually forcing the firearm into the officer's thigh. Wilson said Brown appeared to be trying to squeeze the trigger. Eventually, Wilson described getting free of Brown's grip and raising his weapon toward his attacker. The first attempts by Wilson to get off a round at his attacker failed, he said, as the gun only clicked without firing a bullet.

Wilson ultimately said he fired two shots inside the vehicle. After one shot fired he noticed shattered glass and saw blood on his hand, an indication, he said, that Brown had been hit.

However, a Ferguson police officer and a detective with the St. Louis County Police said that Wilson told them only one shot was fired inside the car. The two officers — one a 38-year veteran of the Ferguson police force and the other a county detective — were among the first to talk with Wilson after the fatal shooting. Wilson and the other officers said the weapon failed to fire multiple times inside the vehicle.
 
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Cackalacky

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Right now? Au contraire. History disagrees. Frontier times. Gangs of New York. "Only law west of the Pecos." Dodge City. Deadwood. Tombstone. Vigilantes. Lynchings. Bounty hunters. The Klan. Rosewood. The Roaring 20's. Prohibition. Capone. Purple Gang. Street gangs. "West Side Story." Drug cartels. Etc, etc.

There are more guns today but there are ubiquitous security camera, cell phones, dash cams, coupled with Internal Affairs, Citizen Review Boards, Civil Rights, litiginous attorneys, 24/7 news, activists, Internet bloggers, etc. etc.

There has never been a time in history when law officials by any name have faced more accountability than they do today.

Ok. So maybe I should have said "still too easy to shoot"? We have more work to do but I agree with your post. Its obviously not the wild west anymore.
 

Bishop2b5

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There should be some obstruction of justice charges from how mishandled this whole thing was.

You've consistently twisted, cherrypicked, misrepresented, and distorted the facts at every turn in order to slant the story as much as possible against the police and make it something it wasn't, while glossing over Brown's criminal and violent behavior that led to this. I've also noticed that you act indignant about perceived lies from the police or DA, but you don't seem to have any problem with all the witnesses who lied about how Brown was executed while on the ground, how Wilson stood over him and shot him, how Brown peacefully surrendered, etc., etc., and later, when under oath and testifying before the grand jury, admitted none of those things were true. In other words, you're a hypocrite and have no integrity. Because of that, you've lost all credibility. Many of those you might have swayed or even convinced have tuned your dishonest spiel out completely.

Your behavior is no better than the racists from the other side. You're a bigger part of the problem than those you hate so much.
 
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You've consistently twisted, cherrypicked, misrepresented, and distorted the facts at every turn in order to slant the story as much as possible against the police and make it something it wasn't, while glossing over Brown's criminal and violent behavior that led to this. I've also noticed that you act indignant about perceived lies from the police or DA, but you don't seem to have any problem with all the witnesses who lied about how Brown was executed while on the ground, how Wilson stood over him and shot him, how Brown peacefully surrendered, etc., etc., and later, when under oath and testifying before the grand jury, admitted none of those things were true. In other words, you're a hypocrite and have no integrity. Because of that, you've lost all credibility. Many of those you might have swayed or even convinced have tuned your dishonest spiel out completely.

Your behavior is no better than the racists from the other side. You're a bigger part of the problem than those you hate so much.

But why male models?
 
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Staten Island man's front teeth lodged into car roof by NYPD face slam, lawsuit alleges | SILive.com

STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- A Graniteville man is suing the city claiming an incensed borough cop slammed his head against the roof of a car, shattering his two front teeth, following a fruitless vehicle stop last December.

Hassam Khan, 24, was headed home after picking up his cousin from work at a nearby drug store on Dec. 26 when he was stopped by undercover cops on Regis Drive, directly outside of his home, his lawsuit alleges.

Three cops hopped out of an unmarked van with their guns drawn and pulled Khan out of the car, pushing his chest against the vehicle, according to the suit, filed Monday in Brooklyn Federal Court.

"The worst that he did was maybe speeding," Khan's lawyer, Harvey Greenberg, said Wednesday. "Though there was never a speeding ticket given."

Greenberg said the cops tore his client's car apart looking for drugs.

After the search came up empty, an irritated Officer Mark Scarlatelli grabbed Khan's head and rammed it into the roof of the car, Greenberg said.

"I just think the cop was so upset at his misjudgment that he just grabbed [Khan's] head and pushed it into the driver's side of the roof," he said.

The force of the impact broke Khan's two front teeth, Greenberg said. In extreme pain, Khan began telling the growing crowd of neighbors what had transpired, according to his suit.

Scarlatelli denied that he'd knocked out Khan's teeth and said he'd charge him with resisting arresting if he didn't stop telling neighbors that he had, the suit alleges.

When Khan didn't shut up about his broken teeth, Officer Steven Marshall handcuffed him.

"You think you can do whatever you want," Marshall said to him, according to the suit. "Because of that I'm going to arrest you."

Khan implored officers to let him look for his broken teeth before they hauled him off to the precinct, and they complied, the suit claims.

"They were looking on the ground," Greenberg said, "but the flashlight shined on the roof and [Khan] spotted the indentations of his teeth...the actual physical pieces of the tooth were in the roof."

Khan was subsequently booked and charged with disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, reckless driving and obstructing governmental administration, according to Greenberg. He pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct on the advice of another lawyer.

Greenberg said his client is a college graduate with a job who has no criminal record -- just one prior violation for disorderly conduct -- and was not known to police.

"He comes from a very good family, upper middle class family, everybody works," he said. "They're very peaceful, legitimate people."

Earlier this month, the Civilian Complaint Review Board substantiated Khan's claims of excessive force by Scarlatelli, improper search by Marshall and the failure of Officer John Ryan, the third officer on the scene, to report Khan's injury to the Internal Affairs Bureau, Greenberg said. The Advance independently confirmed Greenberg's statements about the investigation.

The NYPD did not immediately respond to a request for comment and it's not yet known whether the three officers named in Khan's suit will face disciplinary action.
 

Bishop2b5

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You still understand you are talking about less then 2% of police are dirty.

Doesn't matter. That doesn't jibe with his narrative. He's willing to smear and condemn an entire group based on the bad behavior of a small minority. Funny, but I think he'd probably be quite offended if someone did the same to his group.
 
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Doesn't matter. That doesn't jibe with his narrative. He's willing to smear and condemn an entire group based on the bad behavior of a small minority. Funny, but I think he'd probably be quite offended if someone did the same to his group.

Are you comparing a profession to a race?
 

IrishinSyria

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^This

Let me add...there are 196 countries in the world. If this someone feels this country is so bad, use the freedom this country had provided and get the fuck out.

This is what I've been saying to Tea Partiers for years... you want less government? Somalia and Yemen have just what you're looking not for.
 
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