Pope Benedict to Resign

[gkIrish]

SIAP, please delete if so

Pope Benedict to resign at the end of the month, Vatican says - CNN.com


Curious to what you all think of this

 

[phork]

Next man in!

 

[Emcee77]

It's bizarre, isn't it? We haven't had a pope resign since the Middle Ages. I'm very sorry for him if it's truly his failing health that has prompted him to resign (and I haven't heard that there is any other reason, but a papal resignation is so rare that I won't be surprised if it turns out that there is some other contributing factor ... I mean old, sick popes remain in the position until they die all the time).

I have to say that while I'm sorry to hear of Pope Benedict's failing health, I'm pleased to see him step down. I've always thought that the longer Pope Benedict led the Church, the closer we'd come to being consigned to the margins. His blind insistence on orthodoxy was sadly reactionary ... I always felt he was another Galileo affair waiting to happen. Hopefully the next pope will be better adapted to the modern world.

 

[gkIrish]

My Catholic friends told me when Benedict was chosen that there weren't any great young candidates at the time John Paul II passed so they went with an older guy that could keep things steady for 10-15 years until a more suitable Pope could be elected. Hopefully there is such a man now as I think it's good for the world to have a strong Pope.

 

[Domina Nostra]

It's bizarre, isn't it? We haven't had a pope resign since the Middle Ages. I'm very sorry for him if it's truly his failing health that has prompted him to resign (and I haven't heard that there is any other reason, but a papal resignation is so rare that I won't be surprised if it turns out that there is some other contributing factor ... I mean old, sick popes remain in the position until they die all the time).

I have to say that while I'm sorry to hear of Pope Benedict's failing health, I'm pleased to see him step down. I've always thought that the longer Pope Benedict led the Church, the closer we'd come to being consigned to the margins. His blind insistence on orthodoxy was sadly reactionary ... I always felt he was another Galileo affair waiting to happen. Hopefully the next pope will be better adapted to the modern world.

I would just strongly urge everyone not to go crazy on this subject.

Notre Dame is a Catholic School. The Pope is the spirtual father of the Catholic Church. This IS, in point of fact, a very delicate subject and must be treated very respectfully. Your constitutional right to your own opinions and to speak freely without goverenment sanction has nothing to do whatsoever with the goodness of posting offensive, ill-informed, combative, or rude opinions.

Thanks for the consideration!

Prayers for the Pope.

 

[GowerND11]

It's bizarre, isn't it? We haven't had a pope resign since the Middle Ages. I'm very sorry for him if it's truly his failing health that has prompted him to resign (and I haven't heard that there is any other reason, but a papal resignation is so rare that I won't be surprised if it turns out that there is some other contributing factor ... I mean old, sick popes remain in the position until they die all the time).

I have to say that while I'm sorry to hear of Pope Benedict's failing health, I'm pleased to see him step down. I've always thought that the longer Pope Benedict led the Church, the closer we'd come to being consigned to the margins. His blind insistence on orthodoxy was sadly reactionary ... I always felt he was another Galileo affair waiting to happen. Hopefully the next pope will be better adapted to the modern world.

I have felt from the beginning he was too "old school" and did not keep with the progress Pope John Paull II made.

 

[palinurus]

It's bizarre, isn't it? We haven't had a pope resign since the Middle Ages. I'm very sorry for him if it's truly his failing health that has prompted him to resign (and I haven't heard that there is any other reason, but a papal resignation is so rare that I won't be surprised if it turns out that there is some other contributing factor ... I mean old, sick popes remain in the position until they die all the time).

I have to say that while I'm sorry to hear of Pope Benedict's failing health, I'm pleased to see him step down. I've always thought that the longer Pope Benedict led the Church, the closer we'd come to being consigned to the margins. His blind insistence on orthodoxy was sadly reactionary ... I always felt he was another Galileo affair waiting to happen. Hopefully the next pope will be better adapted to the modern world.

I don't agree with either the conclusion or the logic. I don't see how you can view adherence to Church teaching that is based on completely developed, philosophical and theological principles as "reactionary." You can certainly disagree with them or have different conclusions or premises, but I don't see how you can argue these teachings as "reactionary." Also don't see how the Church can logically reverse the teachings.

I do think alot of the administrative failures and weaknesses within Church leadership -- from the liturgy, to the seminaries, to the scandals -- have squandered authority and made it harder to teach. But that is a separate point.

On a host of issue and teachings, either the Church teaches truth or it doesn't. Presumably, Catholics believe this of their church, the way others do of their churches' teachings. As a Catholic, I believe the things it teaches as truths were always true; otherwise, they were never true. I say this about anything that is an integral belief of the Church; marginal changes can be made to adapt to the times, but not core changes.

For these reasons, I think folks hoping for a more "moderate" or "relevant" pope will be disappointed. I'm sure there are lots of good people in all religions, and there are already churches and religions with more "moderate" or liberal teachings available; the world hardly needs the Catholic Church to join them.

 

[Emcee77]

I have felt from the beginning he was too "old school" and did not keep with the progress Pope John Paull II made.

Right, I agree. Pope Benedict is a formidable theologian, no question about that, but I always felt that while he led the Church, the world was passing us by. I'm excited to see who the next pope will be.

 

[mriguy]

MSN was giving out names of leading candidates to succeed the Pope and one of the names was Timothy Dolan of the US. It said he is not the front runner but a candidate none the less. Odilo Pedro Scherer (Brazilia, 63) is the leading candidate at this point.

Will there ever be a Pope appointed from the United States. I had this talk with my grandmother a few years back and I am intrigued by other peoples thoughts.

 

[gkIrish]

MSN was giving out names of leading candidates to succeed the Pope and one of the names was Timothy Dolan of the US. It said he is not the front runner but a candidate none the less. Odilo Pedro Scherer (Brazilia, 63) is the leading candidate at this point.

Will there ever be a Pope appointed from the United States. I had this talk with my grandmother a few years back and I am intrigued by other peoples thoughts.

I think a Pope from the U.S. would be absolutely incredible for the Catholic Church, despite some initial backlash from the European public.

 

[gkIrish]

Thought this was funny

 

[Emcee77]

I don't agree with either the conclusion or the logic. I don't see how you can view adherence to Church teaching that is based on completely developed, philosophical and theological principles as "reactionary." You can certainly disagree with them or have different conclusions or premises, but I don't see how you can argue these teachings as "reactionary." Also don't see how the Church can logically reverse the teachings.

I do think alot of the administrative failures and weaknesses within Church leadership -- from the liturgy, to the seminaries, to the scandals -- have squandered authority and made it harder to teach. But that is a separate point.

On a host of issue and teachings, either the Church teaches truth or it doesn't. Presumably, Catholics believe this of their church, the way others do of their churches' teachings. As a Catholic, I believe the things it teaches as truths were always true; otherwise, they were never true. I say this about anything that is an integral belief of the Church; marginal changes can be made to adapt to the times, but not core changes.

For these reasons, I think folks hoping for a more "moderate" or "relevant" pope will be disappointed. I'm sure there are lots of good people in all religions, and there are already churches and religions with more "moderate" or liberal teachings available; the world hardly needs the Catholic Church to join them.

Well, I won't pursue this, in view of Domina's request, except to say that I agree with the bolded. Occasionally throughout history, the Church has been wrong (as with Galileo, whom I referenced -- whatever Church teaching had been, the Earth revolves around the sun). Some Church teachings were never true. Some current Church teachings are not and have never been true, and I would think most educated people see that, but many within the Church do not, and instead re-entrench themselves in those teachings. I hope the next Pope will not do that; otherwise, the Church will cease to be an institution that commands respect.

 

[palinurus]

MSN was giving out names of leading candidates to succeed the Pope and one of the names was Timothy Dolan of the US. It said he is not the front runner but a candidate none the less. Odilo Pedro Scherer (Brazilia, 63) is the leading candidate at this point.

Will there ever be a Pope appointed from the United States. I had this talk with my grandmother a few years back and I am intrigued by other peoples thoughts.

Hard to imagine they'd go with an American. I'm guessing the cardinals see that as too establishmentarian. There's probably a concern that the US is already too powerful in international events without having an American pope, too. I think the cardinals see the Southern Hemisphere as the place of growth and the right guy could also revitalize Western church Cahtolicism, even if he hails from Africa or South America.

On a lighter note, I've asked the Shamrock Lounge to consider putting up betting odds on this.

 

[Veer option]

American pope or the field? I would bet heavy on the field.

 

[palinurus]

Well, I won't pursue this, in view of Domina's request, except to say that I agree with the bolded. Occasionally throughout history, the Church has been wrong (as with Galileo, whom I referenced -- whatever Church teaching had been, the Earth revolved around the sun). Some Church teachings were never true. Some current Church teachings are not and have never been true, and I would think most educated people see that, but many within the Church do not, and instead re-entrench themselves in those teachings. I hope the next Pope will not do that; otherwise, the Church will cease to be an institution that commands respect.

Look, I'm not arguing with you; no offense intended and I'm good with friendly disagreement.

I don't know which teachings you mean, and maybe it doesn't matter. But a lot of people (not saying you) who keep saying the Catholic Church ought to "get with it" usually want the Church to soften its teachings consistent with modern political or moral philosophies, as if those Church teachings are plebescite issues, and to the point that the Catholic Church's teaching are indistinguishable from many of the various protestant churches that are available. I don't think the Church can do that credibly, considering its teachings (on the issues I am talking about) are based on specific and developed theological and philosophical bases. As to things in the Galileo category, I think John Paul wrote extensively on the need for faith and reason to stand side by side, and how one supports the other. So maybe we don't disagree too much.

 

[Rack Em]

Well, I won't pursue this, in view of Domina's request, except to say that I agree with the bolded. Occasionally throughout history, the Church has been wrong (as with Galileo, whom I referenced -- whatever Church teaching had been, the Earth revolves around the sun). Some Church teachings were never true. Some current Church teachings are not and have never been true, and I would think most educated people see that, but many within the Church do not, and instead re-entrench themselves in those teachings. I hope the next Pope will not do that; otherwise, the Church will cease to be an institution that commands respect.

Lots of institutions teach/have taught things that aren't true. On issues of Theology and Faith, the Church is infallible. For non-Catholics, believe what you will. But for Catholics, that will ALWAYS be true.

The Church isn't softening its stance on current "progressive" issues. Many of those progressive issues are inherently contradictory to Church teaching. Or at the very least, the implications of certain issues (take same-sex marriage for example) are contradictory to Church teachings.

Domina had an excellent point. This thread could spiral out of control in a hurry. Let's all be respectful. As an ardent Catholic, I'll try not to get pissy.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

God bless

 

[BeauBenken]

We got a new pope in Benedict. You know what changed for me? I had to forget the entire mass I had memorized and learn a new way to say mass.

That's about the only change I can really think of.

Prayers for the Pope's health though.

 

[Emcee77]

Look, I'm not arguing with you; no offense intended and I'm good with friendly disagreement.

I don't know which teachings you mean, and maybe it doesn't matter. But a lot of people (not saying you) who keep saying the Catholic Church ought to "get with it" usually want the Church to soften its teachings consistent with modern political or moral philosophies, as if those Church teachings are plebescite issues, and to the point that the Catholic Church's teaching are indistinguishable from many of the various protestant churches that are available. I don't think the Church can do that credibly, considering its teachings (on the issues I am talking about) are based on specific and developed theological and philosophical bases. As to things in the Galileo category, I think John Paul wrote extensively on the need for faith and reason to stand side by side, and how one supports the other. So maybe we don't disagree too much.

Lots of institutions teach/have taught things that aren't true. On issues of Theology and Faith, the Church is infallible. For non-Catholics, believe what you will. But for Catholics, that will ALWAYS be true.

No, I don't think we do disagree too much. I agree with you guys that the Church can't compromise its beliefs merely because they may have become politically or culturally inexpedient. On the contrary, it must hold to its beliefs all the more strongly in such a climate. I do think, however, that advances in science and social science should inform Church teaching, or provide an opportunity to re-examine Church teaching when they credibly undermine it. No one in the Church disputes that the Earth revolves around the sun any more -- although the Church did dispute it quite vehemently in the early 1600's. I feared that the Church under Benedict was moving toward becoming that reactionary Church again. That fear may or may not have been justified, but I'm a bit relieved to see that he is stepping down, and like everyone I'll be interested to see who replaces him.

 

[BobD]

Hopefully there aren't more serious health issues.

Hopefully no underlying scandalous stuff.

What title will he hold in retirement?

 

[palinurus]

Hopefully there aren't more serious health issues.

Hopefully no underlying scandalous stuff.

What title will he hold in retirement?

I think he remains Bishop of Rome, Emeritus, or the equivalent. I heard he is staying in the Vatican.

 

[Rack Em]

I do think, however, that advances in science and social science should inform Church teaching, or provide an opportunity to re-examine Church teaching when they credibly undermine it. No one in the Church disputes that the Earth revolves around the sun any more -- although the Church did dispute it quite vehemently in the early 1600's.

I see what you mean, but advances in science and social science have little impact on the Church's Theological teaching because they rarely impact Natural Law. I can't think of an example to be honest. Our understanding of the human brain and its chemistry might change, but that doesn't change what the Church teaches to be absolute truth.

I think it's an easy characterization of Benedict XVI to say he wasn't with the times because he was conservative. JPII (the first real "rock star" Pope) wasn't as conservative. By comparison, Benedict looks like a dinosaur.

I'll be interested to see who replaces him.

This will certainly be interesting.

I studied in Rome this summer and have been to the Vatican several times to hear Benedict speak and give blessings. The world really underestimates how brilliant and wise the man actually is. He's not the most popular, but IMO he's done wonders for the Church.

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

American pope or the field? I would bet heavy on the field.

On a lighter note, I've asked the Shamrock Lounge to consider putting up betting odds on this.

Posted this in the other thread:

Paddy Power, Ireland's largest bookmaker, started taking bets on the successor of Pope John Paul II five years before the pontiff's death. British bookmakers such as Pinnacle Sports and William Hill plc also offered such bets, with significantly different odds. Cardinal Ratzinger, the eventual choice of the papal conclave, 2005 as Pope Benedict XVI started out with 12-1 odds, but was a 3-1 favorite at the time of the conclave. Mr. Power, the proprietor of Paddy Power, was evicted from St. Peter's Square by security staff before the start of the 2005 conclave for displaying his betting prices, by what he claims were undercover police officers. Paddy Power alone took over $382,000 in bets on the conclave, making it—according to Mr. Power—"the biggest non-sports betting market of all time". The bookmaker is already offering bets on Benedict XVI's successor—with Cardinal Francis Arinze the 10-1 favorite—although it does not offer bets on the timing of the conclave as "that would be in bad taste".

Gambling on papal conclaves is largely internet based, as most conventional sport books, such as those in Las Vegas, do not accept bets on election outcomes. A handicapper for Bally's and Paris Las Vegas said the casinos refused to accept bets on the election because of "taste" concerns. The practice is illegal in the United States under the Federal Wire Act of 1961. Although Gregory XVI's bull of excommunication has never been rescinded, priests openly gambled on the outcome of the 2005 conclave in the Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis and a spokesperson for the Catholic League stated "we really don't see much of a problem with it".

 

[RDU Irish]

We got a new pope in Benedict. You know what changed for me? I had to forget the entire mass I had memorized and learn a new way to say mass.

That's about the only change I can really think of.

Prayers for the Pope's health though.

Is it consumstantial or consumstantiable? I still mumble through it. I did crack up about two weeks into it when some Asian lady behind me had it down pat, she obviously thought she was back in high school killing the curb.

Prayers to the Pope. Reps to Timothy Dolan, if any American can do it, he can. He did great things in Milwaukee before heading to NYC.

 

[BobD]

My opinion has absolutely zero relevance, but IMHO the church could do well by choosing a Pope of Hispanic descent.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Since the Galileo Controversy has been offered a couple times as an example of when the Church "got it wrong", here's a brief article regarding the Church's position.

In short: (1) Galileo's evidence was insufficient to substantiate the theory (due mostly to inadequate technology at the time); (2) Galileo insisted (as a layman) that his theory invalidated certain literalist interpretations of Scripture; and (3) Galileo insulted the Pope. Had any one of those three factors not been present, Galileo would never have been prosecuted at all.

Is it consumstantial or consumstantiable? I still mumble through it. I did crack up about two weeks into it when some Asian lady behind me had it down pat, she obviously thought she was back in high school killing the curb.

Consubstantial.

Prayers to the Pope. Reps to Timothy Dolan, if any American can do it, he can. He did great things in Milwaukee before heading to NYC.

There are lots of factors that militate against the naming of an American Pope; the two most important being: (1) history; and (2) culture. If the Conclave sides with history (as usual), it'll be another European. If they go with culture, it'll likely be a Cardinal from the third-world.

 

[Rack Em]

Is it consumstantial or consumstantiable? I still mumble through it. I did crack up about two weeks into it when some Asian lady behind me had it down pat, she obviously thought she was back in high school killing the curb.

Prayers to the Pope. Reps to Timothy Dolan, if any American can do it, he can. He did great things in Milwaukee before heading to NYC.

Consubstantial, actually. It's a more literal interpretation of the Nicene Creed promulgated by the Council of Nicea in 325. I wrote a paper on it in undergrad.

I think Dolan would do a fine job. Unfortunately, Europe isn't ready to see an American Pope, IMO.

EDIT: Damn you Whiskey! You're too fast.

 

[chubler]

Sadly, Europe holds too many of the chairs in the conclave to make a non-european pope likely (italians have 25% all to themselves. speaking of problems in the church...)

Personally, I'd love to see Tim Dolan out of New York get elected. I met him several times while he was Archbishop of Milwaukee, and every time I came away incredibly impressed. He's charismatic but genuine, and he did a great job (imo) handling the sex abuse scandal in Milwaukee. Some have criticized him for conducting a "witch hunt", but I think at this point the church needs to err on the side of too much transparency and agressive house-cleaning rather than continue the secrecy.

It helps that he's very well aligned with Rome on most issues, but he comes off brilliantly (focuses on the positive rather than the negative and somehow doesn't sound hokey)

If not him, an African or South American pope would be AWESOME.

 

[palinurus]

Where else but IE can you discuss consubstantial, Galileo, the papal bull of Gregory XVI's, and Kate Upton all within a click or two?

 

[palinurus]

Posted this in the other thread:

I'd be surprised if it is Arinze, because he is 80 years old already. I admit he doesn't look it; that guy found the Fountain of Youth somewhere.