Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Wild Bill

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Second, I work with tons of Latinos who have big families and are happy working construction. And I doubt these jobs even rise to the standard Mr. Carlson is pining for. The real reason uneducated white, rural Americans are not getting married... and becoming drug addicts and killing themselves... is not because "good jobs for normal people" don't exist. It's because for the last 20 years we've been telling everyone they're so special, and for the last 10 years we've been holding up Kim Kardashian as the paragon of success. Nobody is content anymore to be a normal person raising a normal family... they're setting all the wrong goals, and when they realize they can't achieve them they get depressed.

Even if true, isn't the driving force behind the culture you describe above the economic system that Tucker is criticizing?

The problem is that people in Appalachia, dead Midwest factory towns, and the like do not want to relocate for jobs. They expect someone to "bring them back" which -- with a few exceptions -- is completely unrealistic. The irony is that these people ended up in these towns because at some point they/their family left Europe and came to the United States to try to make a better life. And then they migrated throughout to towns where they could find gainful employment. Fast forward a few decades, and they're unwilling to pick up and move a couple hours to take an open job in a major metropolitan area.

That's the 15% that is cringe. All the victimhood nonsense related to "male jobs disappearing" when they're still there.

By your own admission, they're not "still there". They're somewhere else, and as good little servants of the economy, we're expected to chase them. To some extent, you're right, European migrants did relocate for employment. My guess is that they weren't motivated by the opportunity to be a cog in a machine. They were most likely motivated by economic security, earning a wage that could support a family and owing a home in a community they knew, with relatively certainty, they'd be a part of for decades. Is any of that a realistic option for a 20 year old man in middle America today?

Maybe for some, it's an option. By and large, the option most of the men we're describing have is choosing between staying home and being surrounded by their family and friends or moving away to work a job where they earn just enough to sustain their own lives for a company that has zero loyalty to their employees or community. Will their job be relocated within a couple years? Possible if not probable. Will they ever earn a wage that could support home ownership or family formation? Probably not. Will they even earn enough to attract attention from a woman who has been convinced by the cultural forces you describe above that she's an independent woman entitled to the finer things in life? Of course not. Why should she waste away her 20s building a future and family with one man when she can find happiness being a wage slave, guzzling wine, and riding the cock carousel while she competes with the top 50% of women for the attention of the top 5% of male earners who can cater to their materialist desires. Fingers crossed she lands one before her looks fade away.

I'm being a bit dramatic here but my point is that the opportunities available now as compared to three decades are similar only to the extent that men can relocate and find a place to occupy forty hours of their time each week.

Whether it's jobs or culture, Tucker's underlying point still remains true - rather than reflexively siding with "the markets" it may be worthwhile for so called conservative "leaders" or "intellectuals" to consider whether the people exist to serve the economy or does the economy exist to serve the people. If they fail to critically analyze the role of capitalism as it relates to cultural erosion, they'll fail to conserve both the economy they cherish and the way of life they claim to prefer.
 

ACamp1900

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Bottom line here is the transitional American family model (or call it whatever you like) worked, and worked well... We outsmarted ourselves as we tend to do and the market and other social movements have made that model harder to sustain... and now we sit around and wonder why we are seeing ill-effects. Everything else was just noise to me.
 

Wild Bill

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Bottom line here is the transitional American family model (or call it whatever you like) worked, and worked well... We outsmarted ourselves as we tend to do and the market and other social movements have made it harder to sustain economically and now we wonder why we are seeing ill-effects. Everything else was just noise to me.

The noise is a bit different in this situation b/c Tucker is attacking or challenging the economic principles of the right from the right. Who was the last person to do the same with his platform? Pat Buchanan?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Here's another Twitter thread by Brad Wilcox supporting Carlson's argument with empirical research:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1. The toughest criticism of <a href="https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TuckerCarlson</a>'s viral monologue has come not from the Left but from the Right (<a href="https://twitter.com/benshapiro?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@benshapiro</a> & <a href="https://twitter.com/DavidAFrench?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@DavidAFrench</a>). But the thrust of his argument about the working class family is not wrong. <a href="https://t.co/Ay0j7a4jMm">https://t.co/Ay0j7a4jMm</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/TheAtlantic?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TheAtlantic</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/FamStudies?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@FamStudies</a></p>— W Bradford Wilcox (@WilcoxNMP) <a href="https://twitter.com/WilcoxNMP/status/1082977811672039424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 9, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

NorthDakota

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I've thoroughly enjoyed watching Harris, Hirono, etc. get dunked on for this blatant Anti-Catholic bigotry in the judicial nomination process.

Calling the Knights of Columbus an "extremist organization" is the sort of thing that ought to follow them throughout the rest of their political lives. One can very easily see they are working on a second battle plan to jam the potential SCOTUS nomination of Amy Coney Barrett.
 

Legacy

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We've always had class warfare. Whether it's crystalized in forms of religious, racial, revolts over economic opportunities or rights that should be inherent in a free and equal society that provides a government nurturing family life, values and commitments to and sense of community and accents change as well as provide an individual with dignity. Carlson certainly raises some hackles with terms like “ruling class”, “corporate media”, “propaganda”, “culture of poverty”, “exploitation of Americans”, “corporate bondage”, “divided countries are easier to rule”, “market capitalism”, “the rich do nothing” to change this, etc. I imagine that he has subsequently and expected to have been termed a Marxist, despite emphasizing that socialism has been an abject failure and raising the spectre that without change as a country we are assuredly headed down towards that end. Should any of us, including Whiskey, utter the same phrases with regard to the nightmare of the inner cities and the devastation of rural areas, manipulative leaders who are apathetic to the dissolution of our society by intentionally separating economic and “marketplace” factors with the demise of American cultural ideals and goals, we might also be subjected to a backlash. I just disagree with Carlson that our “leaders” do not understand because they “have no skin in the game”. I do have to agree that our “leaders are souless”. Perhaps he cannot yet shed bllnders of a lifetime to such governmental changes in right to work laws, for instance, that deprive a working class reliant on wages with benefits that cover adequate health and a measure of comfortable retirement, for instance. That amounts to a devaluation of American labor with the panacea of cheap goods from poorly paid workers elsewhere in a global economy. That seems to be in conflict with his terminology above. Probably it is consistent, however, with his advocacy that the Republican Party leaders, who to him are the only viable governing body, enact those necessary changes in economic policies including an unfair, multi-tiered tax code that support family and cultural values that have eroded America. Perhaps at another time he will discuss the failure of liberalism with its emphasis on statism and individualism as a political philosophy that will promote the changes he currently espouses instead of the current image of a divergent ideologue. Would he support a repeal of Citizens United or decry a government shutdown of federal workers or a change in bankruptcy laws or a government commitment to fulfilling promises for pensions for state workers? Yet the moral aspects of his criticism of ruling leaders has so far exempted any failure of religious institutions or to paint them as Social Conservatives who also separate economic and cultural issues. You would think that those leaders would "have a skin in the game" and would not be "soulless".
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Dougherty just published an article in NRO titled "Personal Responsibility Is No Substitute for Political Reflection":

Hear, O ye princes of Jacob, and ye chiefs of the house of Israel: Is it not your part to know judgment, you that hate good, and love evil: that violently pluck off their skins from them, and their flesh from their bones? Who have eaten the flesh of my people, and have flayed their skin from off them: and have broken, and chopped their bones as for the kettle, and as flesh in the midst of the pot. —Micah 3:1-3

Sad! The prophet Micah was preaching a victimhood politics to the Israelites, blaming the shadowy elites: the supposedly unfaithful priests, opportunistic prophets, and greedy “princes of the House of Jacob.” He even says that the whole nation is going to be destroyed because of their vicious self-seeking. Doesn’t he know that preaching this fire-and-brimstone stuff to respectable people never helped a single lazy wretch? Micah resents people who are making a success of the new political arrangements in the Levant. He longs fruitlessly for a past Davidic monarchy that, like America’s manufacturing jobs, will never come back. And when you think about it, there are some real anti-Semitic overtones to it all, denouncing the “chiefs of the house of Israel” and all that. You really hate to see a 6th-century b.c. text that rhymes with the worst rhetoric of the 20th century a.d. Hopefully the American Right rejects this nonsense.

I’m sure some readers are sick of hearing about Tucker Carlson’s monologue. But it has become the focus of a debate because Carlson pointed to the real molten fissure that is burbling sulfur on the American right. By doing so without ever mentioning the name, the character, or the political fortunes of Donald Trump, he allowed everyone to be more frank than usual. Carlson’s case is that elite-driven economic and social policy has destroyed the material basis for the family life, that our technocratic elite has the wrong measures of national health. Further, he argues, if the American Right doesn’t give up on its absentminded idolatry of “the market,” the country will quickly move toward socialism.

My colleagues David French and David Bahnsen, along with Ben Shapiro, argued forcefully against him. The themes are remarkably similar. Carlson says true things about the state of family life, they admit. But he is encouraging a victim mentality. French complains of the insidious way that populism “focuses on the political at the expense of the personal.” That it teaches people to labor for what’s out of their control (public policy, elites) at the expense of what’s in their control (their personal affairs). Shapiro argues more broadly that virtue (happy marriages, self-control) precedes prosperity, implying that no policy fix to increase incomes will, of itself, decrease the rate of drug use, or increase the rates of marriage or legitimacy in childbearing.

While French, Bahnsen, and Shapiro all variously object to Carlson’s jeremiads about elites, and his iconoclasm when it comes to the “free market,” nobody disputed that, as Carlson said, sometimes private-equity outfits do take advantage of our laws to extract value from existing companies for shareholders, charging fees while passing on pension burdens to the public. Also, nobody argued against Carlson’s contention that, absent a dramatic effort to change the conditions for America’s middle and working class, the country will turn to socialism. I found these omissions curious.

As a rebuttal, both Shapiro and French deployed statistics showing that American manufacturing production has stayed relatively steady, and they attributed any falloff in employment to automation. But in this same post–Cold War period, other industrial powers are seeing their manufacturing output grow. In other words, American manufacturing isn’t just employing fewer people than it used to — it’s falling behind and losing competitiveness overall.

First, however, let’s talk about the “free market” and “government interventionism.” Carlson argued that the policies that favor certain forms of wealth creation for the elite, and that disfavor those of working people, are not “the free market,” but the product of laws and decisions made by Congress. Carlson said:

Market capitalism is a tool, like a staple gun or a toaster. You’d have to be a fool to worship it. Our system was created by human beings for the benefit of human beings. We do not exist to serve markets. Just the opposite. Any economic system that weakens and destroys families is not worth having. A system like that is the enemy of a healthy society.

Carlson’s critics have sometimes proven his point. In a response at his own site, Ben Shapiro retorts:

Carlson seems to attribute America’s troubles not to government interventionism, but to government non-interventionism. Typically, conservatism has argued that if you live in a free society in which you have not been targeted unfairly, your failures are your own. For Carlson, however, the very freedom of our society leads to the unhappiness so many of us feel. Carlson seems to suggest that our system itself is to blame for individual shortcomings, and that collective restructuring of free institutions will alleviate and cure those shortcomings. This is simply not reflective of conservatism, or of founding ideology.

Shapiro writes that “the economic systems that allow families to thrive are the same economic systems that allow all human beings to thrive: free markets.” And that Carlson “blames both the welfare state and trade policy — as though tariffs aren’t merely an indirect form of wealth redistribution.”

Imagine I had written a long screed about government waste in spending. In that screed I cited outdated defense programs meant to share the wealth among vulnerable congressional districts, and I railed against the stupid waste of having all federal projects that use computers still needing to be certified as “Y2K compliant.”

And then a group of writers wrote a comprehensive response defending this waste and injustice by saying that “self-government has produced the best, most accountable governments in human history.” And that the results are just self-government in action, and if I don’t like it, I can throw in with the Marxists. These references to self-government would simply be a rhetorical trick for avoiding debate. Frankly, many of Carlson’s critics deploy “free markets” in just this way. And I find it as useful as I would defending Chinese economic arrangements with reference to “Xi Jinping thought.”

Carlson’s critics don’t sharply distinguish between markets that operate under just laws shaped by democratic publics, and those that are subject to constant government intervention and interference by social engineers. If China has a mercantilist policy aimed at up-skilling its work force, and laws that favor the capture, growth, and protection of its own high-tech industries at our expense, is our trade with them really free? May I remind those in this discussion that William F. Buckley Jr. opposed granting China most-favored-nation status precisely for the baleful economic and political effects of treating a Communist country like China as if it were a free one like Canada? Was he a populist who sounded just like Bernie Sanders?

Shapiro writes that populists on the right largely agree with the Marxist Left that “human failings are the result of private property–based economic systems; therefore, private property–based systems must be destroyed.” The traditional conservative position on “markets” has always been one of guarded appreciation for private property, mixed with a little suspicion for commerce and wage slavery. In fact, the traditional conservative position regards ownership of goods as a form of trusteeship and tends to despise those “owners” who greedily extract all the value from a resource in the present if it destroys its future value for posterity.

Bahnsen writes: “Carlson wrongly chooses to assign blame for the decisions people make to macroeconomic forces, instead of focusing on the decisions people make and the microeconomic consequences people absorb.”

To those who object to Carlson along these lines I would ask: At what point can we actually move on from the subject of personal responsibility and onto governance? Or, to put it another way, are there any political conditions in which the advice to be virtuous and responsible aren’t the best counsel you could give an individual?

It seems that it would be just as true to say these things in Russia during the post-Communist period, which saw soaring substance-abuse problems and plunging life expectancies. Then as now, the best advice you could give an individual Russian man was not to drink until his liver failed and he died. You could advise Russian women not to abort so many of their children. You could advise people to go back to church. All that would be salutary and more practically useful than having them wallow in elite failure. But none of that advice is inconsistent with political reflection and action for building a more flourishing society.

And our jobs at National Review and the Daily Wire include writing about and reflecting on political conditions. We are, all of us in this debate, dedicated to causes in which political effort and coordination is difficult. Would any of us really conclude that because the Russian state wasn’t forcing men at gunpoint to drink, Russia’s mortality rate had nothing to do with the corruption, venality, and misgovernance of the era? I doubt it.

* * *

I agree that a victim mentality isn’t helpful. A victim mentality doesn’t even help most actual victims. It wouldn’t help most political prisoners held unjustly. They, too, benefit spiritually from self-control (and religion)! My fear is that we are now so self-conscious about legitimizing a victim mentality that we have decided that justice is hardly worth pursuing. We trust an invisible hand so thoroughly that we don’t ask whether the laws and policies that govern trade, employment, and markets are prudent. We are becoming as glib as those who say “Don’t like abortion? Then don’t have one.”

Bahnsen disclaims the idea of merely pulling up on one’s bootstraps. “I don’t believe our rejection of a mentality of victimization can happen in isolation,” he writes. “A healthy (and happy) society requires mediating institutions — family, church, civic organizations, communities — that serve as necessary vehicles for virtuous living.”

What about democracy or republican government? Are those not institutions that play a role in self-governance? My question to Bahnsen would be this: If mediating institutions such as family, church, and civic organizations are important, should it not trouble us that many of modern capitalism’s defenders give capitalism praise precisely because it tends to efface and render obsolete the authority of those institutions? Should it not trouble us that many libertarian allies praise capitalism in the same terms that Marx describes it in The Communist Manifesto: as an engine of destruction for social bonds?

Let’s move on to discuss another victim mentality — that of elites. Large financial institutions are excused for their failures. How can they help it, what with the animal spirits and all? French finds it insidious that Carlson seems to be teaching his viewers that some “them” are doing a disservice to “us.” Presumably he thinks this will weaken their incentive to take charge of their own life, live within their means, and advance. Does that not apply to elites as well?

What’s truly insidious is that the docile response of “us” Americans to unjust financial bailouts a decade ago is counted by “them” as a positive. It is a sign that when we discover once again in the future that these institutions are too big to fail, Americans will consent to be fleeced again to save them. Shapiro and French implicitly advocate that the market encourages self-discipline and industry. But, at the highest level, it actually subsidizes failure and irresponsibility.

Bloomberg tried to figure out the true cost of the bailouts. The government had lent, spent, or otherwise guaranteed $12.8 trillion. In other words, the banks and Wall Street got a New Deal, a Fair Deal, a Great Society, and a guaranteed income. That industry had its losses socialized with an ocean of money that makes federal welfare outlays look like a dribble near the Goldman Sachs urinal. The common man could use the bailouts to do the long arduous application for a new home refinance, often at unusual and abusive terms. A middleman bank would get paid by the government for creating and servicing that loan, too.

Where were the lectures about personal responsibility, the sacrosanct judgements of the market, and the consequent virtue of adapting in 2008? If conservatives believe that any number of American blue-collar industries are obsolete in a global economy, why didn’t we conclude the same about America’s financial industry a decade ago? Did anyone argue that America just can’t compete with the City of London and other financial capitals anymore? Did anyone say that the British just have the competitive advantage, and the subsidies required to sustain this native industry are just intolerable distortions of the market, funding the lifestyle of losers who should adapt to the gig economy or just do heroin if they can’t figure out what else to do with their lives?

No, of course not. Almost everyone in power has friends in that industry or hopes to work in it someday. I’ve gone to conferences of former politicians and their advisers. Nearly every one of them works for an NGO, a financial institution, or a firm that consults with financial institutions. We simply concluded that having a financial industry is strategically, economically, and politically vital for our country. We calculated that the social costs of allowing this industry to wind down or die were too deleterious to contemplate. And we saved it.

But populism isn’t just fed by the licensed and taxpayer-insured misbehavior of financial institutions. It’s also fueled by more common forms of avarice and exploitation. French shares an anecdote about his father-in-law who left the chronically poor regions of Tennessee’s mountains, joined the Marines, and bettered himself through college and a good marriage to a Christian woman. God bless him. But I have another anecdote.

Not too far from my home is a college that hopes to “serve” those who don’t normally have access to a college education. This college is accredited, and its enrollment benefits from a massive amount of outdated pro-college advertising and propaganda. It profits from those false “facts” about how a college education leads to 1 million more dollars in income over a lifetime. It also benefits from the curious preferment and non-discrimination given to government-backed student loans, a type of debt that is almost impossible to discharge. Its typical student has a low-wage job in a service industry. One-third of the students graduate. And the vast majority of them do not see any change in their career path. They go back to their service jobs. But they are better-educated than they were before! The teachers and administrators are all civic-minded people who believe that education is valuable in itself. They don’t look like vampires. But do the students know that their education has no market value? Do they realize that this system transmutes their low-five-figure salaries into their own personal debt, a debt that is harder to escape, legally speaking, than a spouse or even a child? Do they realize that this debt finances the much higher five- and six-figure salaries for their teachers and administrators?

* * *

At this point, I can hear my colleague Kevin D. Williamson’s voice piping in. Williamson thinks that Carlson and his defenders — people like J. D. Vance and myself — are playing a “status game.” We’re badmouthing the suits and singing paeans to the working man, and my colleague can’t quite see the point. My response to this accusation is to write to him: Yes, guilty as charged.

I happen to think that good conservative government involves reconciling the diverse interests of your society toward the common good. Status goes with power. Our working theory is that the interests of the vulnerable middle- and working-class have been lately ignored long enough by the political class of this country. The results have been declining labor-force participation of prime-age men, massive problems of substance abuse, lack of marriage, and the election of Donald Trump. Carlson’s thesis is that if we continue to go on this way, the result will be socialism. Any attempt by Carlson, Vance, or myself to get the interests of this class of people addressed will, by definition, involve raising their low status.

This is a tautology. There is no lack of agency involved either. Many of these men have responded rationally to the fact that Democrats began to stop advocating for their interests a quarter-century ago: They are entering the opposing party and voting for candidates who would advocate for them.

Williamson writes:

Even assuming that all of Dougherty’s fine-tuning of the moral standing and status of his various subjects is carried out with superhuman accuracy: What then? What is it our gentle new breed of nationalists would like to see done?

Because if the problem we are trying to address is the situation of low-income, unemployed, and marginally employed white men in rural and semi-rural areas, none of the tut-tutting about the moral failings of this or that business leader in New York City or Palo Alto changes the fact that we have two choices: We help these men to become self-sufficient, or we maintain them in welfare dependency indefinitely.

It’s good to see Williamson move on to Lenin’s question: What is to be done? The first step is acknowledging the problem. That is what Williamson objects to when he belittles social and political description as “fine-tuning” and “status games.” But if we can admit that Buckley was right to object to Bill Clinton’s trade policies with China, then we can get on to admitting that perhaps policymakers fooled themselves when they believed that there is no difference between producing potato chips and microchips. Not only because it is dangerous to give a Communist geopolitical rival that kind of access to your security supply chain. But also because, unlike potato farmers, people who develop skills and knowledge in a computer-chip industry often go on to found other companies. Just a decade after Chinese firms were contracted to assemble iPhones, China has developed its own powerful tech companies. We can admit that the elite theories about transitions to a service economy, the theories that were driving policy changes and dulling trade negotiators to the danger at hand, were wrong. Let’s not compound the error in the future.

Once that’s done, we can get on to more ambitious proposals. Williamson wants to see these marginal men matched up to the many unfilled, well-paying, industrial jobs that do exist in America. So do I — but I have an odd intuition that falling fertility rates over the last two generations have destroyed the primary means through which men find these type of jobs: their extended kin networks. Be that as it may, we might consider Oren Cass’s suggestion of labor reform that would allow German-style worker co-ops that have the ability to train men and match them to opportunities. Doing this would involve another status game, as it might mean thinking about this issue more and serving the interests of our bloated university system less. So be it.

I don’t think the different sides of this debate are irreconcilable. Shapiro comes close to a truth, and to agreement with Carlson and myself, when he expounds on the Founders’ classical conception of threats to the polis. He writes that they recognized that “the chief threat to virtue came from desire for material gain, disconnected from the virtuous social fabric.”

I couldn’t agree more. Meanwhile the crisis of responsibility that Bahnsen talks about belongs also to self-seeking elites. And he recognizes that. One of the great benefits of having nation-states rather than empires is that nation-states help bind metropolitan elites to their local country. As the populists see it, the post–Cold War period has included an attempt at elite secession from their moral, economic, and political duties to their countrymen. That is why there is a curious internationalization to the split in Western politics. One on side, people in the elite across the West root for the post–Cold War status quo, for the European Union, for Macron and Merkel. On the other side, people root for the survival of nation-states, for Trump, Brexit, and the Yellow Vests.

I also agree with Robert VerBruggen that some social changes of the last 50 years are unprecedented in their effect, and difficult to address. But, again, if I’m hearing French, Bahnsen, and Shapiro correctly, the difficulty of our circumstances is no excuse for elites to fall into self-pity and lassitude. This is our problem set, let’s go about solving it.

* * *

One last anecdote. In 2017, I attended a behind-closed-doors conference of political elites, joining former party leaders and serious think-tank personalities from across Europe and America. They were trying to cope with Brexit and Trump. They tried to talk through big-picture issues: China, automation, and populism among them. One participant, a perfectly civil-minded woman, in her way, said that it was inevitable that automation would make a substantial plurality of men redundant in the economy. She said that those who were economically useful would continue to become fabulously wealthy, and we would re-employ the useless men in labor-intensive industries. “They’ll make overpriced ‘artisanal’ banana bread and we’ll pretend to love it,” she said, making scare quotes with her fingers. In other words, her response to the social crisis roiling the West is “Let us eat their cake.”

Conservatives need to stop treating America’s economic policies as sacrosanct in theory and blameless in effect. It’s fine to tell your neighbor to get his hair cut and show up on time to his job interview. But, as people who talk about politics and concern ourselves with the commonwealth, we need to work for the creation of a free market that contributes to rather than hinders the formation of strong families and communities. If we don’t do this, Micah’s prophecies will hold just as true for America. And if we get the politics of Venezuela in return, all the sermons about victimhood culture and self-pity will be repeated in mocking tones back to those who offered them.
 

Irish YJ

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I've thoroughly enjoyed watching Harris, Hirono, etc. get dunked on for this blatant Anti-Catholic bigotry in the judicial nomination process.

Calling the Knights of Columbus an "extremist organization" is the sort of thing that ought to follow them throughout the rest of their political lives. One can very easily see they are working on a second battle plan to jam the potential SCOTUS nomination of Amy Coney Barrett.

I don't know about the KofC in other towns, but growing up on the South Side of Indy, it was an excuse to be charitable and toss back some drinks with the boys. Several in my family were 3rd and 4th, and my best bud's dad was the GK growing up. Not near as secretive as the Masons which my father belonged to. One of my cousins was a member and ran security at the one closest to my mom's until they sold the property last year. Aside from the fraternal stuff..... Bingo, poker, beer, food... And a good place to gather after the Friday night HS football game. Extremist... lol...
 

Irish YJ

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Looks like the Demwits are caving to Trumps border wishes. Ch/ancy losing power by the moment.

If the Dems were smart, they'd support it, get a deal for DACA, and make border security and immigration reform their own "story" for 2020. They look like dopes right now fighting something they were fully in support of 5 years ago. Schumer can't make those vids of his support in 2013 go away, nor can the Clintons or Obama. It's just simply silly. At worst, a wall slows down illegal crossings and drug flow, and creates jobs. However you want to debate it, that's the absolute worst outcome. The gov spends more than that on frivolous and worthless shit all the time that provides little to no benefit.
 

loomis41973

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If the Dems were smart, they'd support it, get a deal for DACA, and make border security and immigration reform their own "story" for 2020. They look like dopes right now fighting something they were fully in support of 5 years ago. Schumer can't make those vids of his support in 2013 go away, nor can the Clintons or Obama. It's just simply silly. At worst, a wall slows down illegal crossings and drug flow, and creates jobs. However you want to debate it, that's the absolute worst outcome. The gov spends more than that on frivolous and worthless shit all the time that provides little to no benefit.

C'mon, you know better...lol

CH/ancy are feeling the squeeze. I'm sure they'll cave soon so they can procede to try and block TRUMPS next SCOTUS nomination.
 

Irish YJ

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C'mon, you know better...lol

CH/ancy are feeling the squeeze. I'm sure they'll cave soon so they can procede to try and block TRUMPS next SCOTUS nomination.

Yup I do lol.

I do think the Daca folks are tired of the Dems using them as pawns when shit could be solved in a heartbeat. I'd love to see Trump or the GOP put out a public and simple reform bill that addresses the top 10 immigration issues. It's not that F'ing hard, and the majority of Americans are behind the common sense shit.
 

loomis41973

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Yup I do lol.

I do think the Daca folks are tired of the Dems using them as pawns when shit could be solved in a heartbeat. I'd love to see Trump or the GOP put out a public and simple reform bill that addresses the top 10 immigration issues. It's not that F'ing hard, and the majority of Americans are behind the common sense shit.

YEP...and would carry the Hispanic vote even more easily in 2020.
 

ACamp1900

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If the Dems were smart, they'd support it, get a deal for DACA, and make border security and immigration reform their own "story" for 2020. They look like dopes right now fighting something they were fully in support of 5 years ago. Schumer can't make those vids of his support in 2013 go away, nor can the Clintons or Obama. It's just simply silly. At worst, a wall slows down illegal crossings and drug flow, and creates jobs. However you want to debate it, that's the absolute worst outcome. The gov spends more than that on frivolous and worthless shit all the time that provides little to no benefit.

If Dem voters were smart,... sorry but their shit has been see through for years and that was back when they even tried to hide their manipulative games... now they all but openly say,’our voters are too stupid to know better...’
 

Irish#1

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I don't know about the KofC in other towns, but growing up on the South Side of Indy, it was an excuse to be charitable and toss back some drinks with the boys. Several in my family were 3rd and 4th, and my best bud's dad was the GK growing up. Not near as secretive as the Masons which my father belonged to. One of my cousins was a member and ran security at the one closest to my mom's until they sold the property last year. Aside from the fraternal stuff..... Bingo, poker, beer, food... And a good place to gather after the Friday night HS football game. Extremist... lol...

Apparently they never showed you the secret door.
 

Legacy

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A few other thoughts on the issues Carlson raised. He may well be reflecting on the idea of a functional Republic in which government is at the service for the good of the people and that major goals would to provide justice in the city through a system of laws that would promote ingenuity, opportunity, dignity and, through those, prosperity and happiness. Any functional republic would have "fair", "decent" leaders who are responsive to making changes to promote justice and who understand and recognize that economic and cultural aspects of a society are intertwined. Republic(an) theorists pragmatically acknowledge that government could be controlled by unjust leaders who promote their own self-interests, but would be removed or even ostracized due to disregard or disinterest in promoting the overall health and happiness of their community. He concedes that years of political power in America by the "ruling class" has not striven towards those ideals and attributes the "nightmare" of inner city and rural collapses leading to a "culture of poverty" from which they cannot escape. In contemporary American society, we are raising "kids who hate other kids" and that only the rich can afford to marry and have kids, which leads directly to the dissolution of the family unit.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Here's the NYT's Ross Douthat on Carlson's monologue:

The most interesting thing in conservative politics right now is not the government shutdown and Donald Trump’s flailing attempt to claim victory while being defeated on all fronts. Instead it’s an ideological battle over Tucker Carlson’s recent Fox News soliloquy, in which he accused his fellow Republicans of building an anti-family, finance-dominated economic system that might be “the enemy of a healthy society.”

Carlson’s monologue was an expansion of themes that have dominated his reinvention as a Trump-era populist — the general folly of elites, the unwisdom of the bipartisan consensus on immigration and foreign policy, the failure of Republican leaders to defend the national interest.

But in expanding on those themes he went somewhere that Fox hosts rarely go — from culture into economics, from a critique of liberal cosmopolitanism into a critique of libertarianism, from a lament for the decline of the family to an argument that this decline can be laid at the feet of consumer capitalism as well as social liberalism.

Just about every conservative worth reading was provoked into responding. One set of responses accused Carlson of a kind of conspiratorial socialism, which exaggerates economic misery, ignores capitalism’s fruits, and encourages ordinary people to blame shadowy elites instead of cultivating personal responsibility.

The other group basically said, no, Tucker has a point — the point being that market economies are inevitably shaped by public policy, that policies championed by both parties have failed to promote the interests of the working class, and that social conservatives especially need a framework of political economy to promote the institutions — family, work, neighborhood — upon which civil society depends.

If there is to be a healthy American right, after Donald Trump or ever, this is the argument that conservatives should be having. And it is especially an argument that Fox News should be highlighting, since Fox is frequently responsible for stoking populism but keeping it vacuous or racialized, evading the debates the right really needs.

Now let me attempt my own quick contribution. A key issue in the Carlson contretemps is distilled in this line from David French of National Review, one of the monologue’s critics: “There are wounds that public policy can’t heal.”

This is a crucial conservative insight, a caution for policymakers everywhere — but it can also become a trap, a cul-de-sac, an excuse for doing nothing. And that has happened too often for conservatives in recent decades: They’ve leaped to despair without even trying policy.

Let me give three examples. Modern conservatism was forged in the crucible of the 1970s inflation crisis, and in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crash many conservatives were convinced that there was nothing the Federal Reserve could do about the vast army of the unemployed without touching off a similar inflationary spiral.

But in hindsight this was wrong, the feared inflation never came, and the economic recovery was slowed because of the Republican fixation on tight money. Of course, in the Trump era some Republicans have conveniently become dovish on inflation. But in the preceding eight years, wage-earning Americans suffered unnecessarily because of a wrongheaded right-wing counsel of despair.

A second example: While it’s true that family breakdown has deep and tangled roots, it’s also true that in the 1940s and 1950s, a mix of government policy, union strength and conservative gender norms established a “family wage” — an income level that enabled a single breadwinner to support a family.

Maybe it isn’t possible to recreate a family wage for a less unionized and more feminist age — but are we sure? Is there really nothing conservatives can do to address the costs of child care, the unfulfilled parental desire to shift to part-time work, the problem that a slightly more reactionary iteration of Elizabeth Warren once dubbed “the two-income trap”? If marriages and intact families and birthrates declined as the family wage crumbled, perhaps we should try rebuilding that economic foundation before we declare the crisis of the family a wound that policy can’t heal.

A final example: Historically conservatism has been proudly paternalist, favorable to forms of censorship and prohibition for the sake of protecting precisely the private virtues that Carlson’s critics think government can’t cultivate. But in recent decades, the right’s elites have despaired of censoring pornography, acquiesced to the spread of casino gambling, made peace with the creeping commercialization of marijuana, and accepted the internet’s conquest of childhood and adolescence.

Yet none of these trends actually seem entirely beyond the influence of regulation. It’s just that conservatism has given up — once again, in unwarranted despair — on earlier assumptions about how public paternalism can encourage private virtue.

The deeper point here is that public policy is rarely a cure-all, but it can often be a corrective. And the part of Carlson’s monologue his critics should especially ponder is the end, when he suggests that absent a corrective that "protects normal families," even the normal will eventually turn to socialism — choosing a left-wing overcorrection over a right that just says, Well, you see, we already cut corporate taxes, so there's nothing we can do.
 

Bluto

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you'd probably like his opinions on Pinochet too

Your ability to google is top notch. Maybe he was just the typical young republican asshole back in the day and his views have evolved? Maybe he decided that taking “shocking” positions for the sake of being “shocking” is kind of stupid? Maybe not? Who knows. Irregardless, I have read stuff over the years written by people with some pretty ridiculous world views. Mein Kampf (not all of it, it’s a pretty rough read), Atlas Shrugged and the Turner Diaries being a couple examples.

I will say that Douthat’s photoshopped attempt to look like Leanorado Decaprio in his column header is pretty pathetic.
 
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Irish YJ

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Your ability to google is top notch. Maybe he was just the typical young republican asshole back in the day and his views have evolved? Maybe he decided that taking “shocking” positions for the sake of being “shocking” is kind of stupid? Maybe not? Who knows. Irregardless, I have read stuff over the years written by people with some pretty ridiculous world. Mein Kampf (not all of it, it’s a pretty rough read), Atlas Shrugged and the Turner Diaries being a couple examples.

I will say that Douthat’s photoshopped attempt to look like Leanorado Decaprio in his column header is pretty pathetic.

Pretty sure you can thank Buster for my knowledge of his background...

But I do look at journalist's histories. Why anyone would not question talking heads in today's media is simply foolish. What I often find (not just talking about stupid stuff like this) is many "journalists" dramatically shift their narrative as soon as someone else gets elected. Just like many of the same talking heads on the topic of illegal immigration sang a very different song when the Clintons, Obama, or Schumer said the same things as Trump.
 

Irish YJ

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Ocasio-Cortez set to join Maxine Waters on key financial services committee
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/oc...ne-waters-on-key-financial-services-committee

Having either one of these anywhere near financial decisions is F'ing hilarious. One has a history of financial impropriety and guiding benefits to family, the other simply doesn't have a F'ing clue how things are paid for. I can see the 2019 committee slogan now.... "just pay for it!"

smdh
 

NorthDakota

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Ocasio-Cortez set to join Maxine Waters on key financial services committee
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/oc...ne-waters-on-key-financial-services-committee

Having either one of these anywhere near financial decisions is F'ing hilarious. One has a history of financial impropriety and guiding benefits to family, the other simply doesn't have a F'ing clue how things are paid for. I can see the 2019 committee slogan now.... "just pay for it!"

smdh

Those are exactly the types I want on the committee. Nothing will get passed or done.
 

Legacy

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The third thought that I had on Carlson's discourse against rampant market capitalism was Who's his targeted audience? (Transcript) He pointed out the current wave of popularism dependent on a narcissistic personality is unsustainable, criticized the Social Conservativism separating culture and economics and Republicans who "have considered it their duty to make the world safe for banking, while simultaneously prosecuting ever more foreign wars" - shared by modern Democrats, and the narrower neocon view. He does want Republicans to develop a moral spine and reconsider a Faustian bargain with their worship of market capitalism. Liberal conservatism has become a dead end having directly contributed to eroding the family and largely resulted in a cultural wasteland with a "culture of poverty". Libertarianism would exacerbate the soulless authoritarian capitalism currently embraced.

Who's left? To whom is he appealing that will focus on what should be federal government's primary goals. Where is he going? Is he trying to refocus on a new political philosophy?

The goal for America is both simpler and more elusive than mere prosperity. It’s happiness. There are a lot of ingredients in being happy: Dignity. Purpose. Self-control. Independence. Above all, deep relationships with other people. Those are the things that you want for your children. They’re what our leaders should want for us, and would if they cared. But our leaders don’t care. We are ruled by mercenaries who feel no long-term obligation to the people they rule. They’re day traders. Substitute teachers. They’re just passing through. They have no skin in this game, and it shows. They can’t solve our problems. They don’t even bother to understand our problems.

One of the biggest lies our leaders tell is that you can separate economics from everything else that matters. Economics is a topic for public debate. Family and faith and culture, those are personal matters. Both parties believe this. Members of our educated upper-middle-classes, now the backbone of the Democratic Party, usually describe themselves as fiscally responsible and socially moderate. In other words, functionally libertarian. They don’t care how you live, as long as the bills are paid and the markets function. Somehow they don’t see a connection between people’s personal lives and the health of our economy, or for that matter, the country’s ability to pay its bills. As far as they’re concerned, these are two totally separate categories.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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The Week's Matthew Walther just published an article titled "America's shutdown indifference":

I have two memories of the federal government shutdown of 2013. One is not actually mine but my wife's. At the time she was employed as a waitress at a restaurant in the Clarendon neighborhood of Arlington, Virginia. During those 16 days she waited on hundreds of furloughed government employees, in many cases during what would otherwise have been their ordinary working hours.

The vast majority of these public servants left no tips regardless of the size of their bills, some of which were substantial. Many of them instead wrote notes politely explaining that they wished they could contribute a gratuity but given the circumstances they were sure everyone would understand. Perhaps they were under the impression that my wife and her co-workers, most of whom were African-American women who had made the long commute from over the river in Anacostia in order to serve novelty drinks and gigantic appetizer platters to these selfless officials, had Ted Cruz's cell number and could bring the whole thing to a halt if they so chose. Or maybe they were just being the lazy, entitled, self-aggrandizing make-work goons millions of Americans imagine them as.

The other memory, which is less horrifying but even more ludicrous, is of barriers being erected around various D.C.-area landmarks, including open-air war memorials. To this day I cannot think of any good reason for this save sheer caprice. If the idea was that 550-foot obelisks made of granite simply could not be meaningfully serviced during those lean two weeks in 2013, then who was responsible for putting up the rent-a-fence barricades around them? Civic-minded volunteers? The U.S. Marine Corps? Barack Obama himself? It was beautifully cynical, and I congratulate whoever came up with it.

I mention these anecdotes not because I think the present record-setting shutdown is good or sane policy but because I am trying to illustrate why I and other Americans have a hard time caring much about it. In the popular imagination — and sometimes in dozens of little-read memos from the inspectors general of various departments — the average federal employee appears to be lazy, incompetent, performing meaningless tasks for too much pay, with an enviable array of benefits and other amenities (I still roll my eyes in disgust whenever I am reminded that there exist special credit unions for federal employees, whose pay and job security would be the envy of a hundred million other Americans). Government employees, at both the state and federal level, are among the only workers in the United States who continue to be represented by powerful unions, despite the fact that by definition they're not bargaining against capital but against their fellow citizens.

This is to say nothing of the vast assortment of contractors, consultants, and hangers-on whose "work" has been temporarily interrupted by the shutdown. Their grotesque salaries have blighted the landscape with McMansions and driven housing prices in Maryland and northern Virginia to a level beyond what most families with children will ever be able to afford. So the people whose job it is to bid up the price of useless airplanes or dream up rival marketing schemes for some "cloud" project while our nation's capital lacks a functional public transit system are going to have .05 percent fewer billable hours for the year? Boo hoo.

Comparatively few people are outraged about the fact that as I write this General Motors and Ford are preparing to lay off many thousands of workers because management paid consultants millions of dollars to give them the idea. Few care about the shuttering of small auto parts plants, like this one in a small Michigan town not far from where I live, or the hourly employees affected, who lack the financial and other resources of our federal workforce. When Capital One kindly announces its "solutions" for customers affected by the shutdown, I ask myself why this courtesy is not extended to the millions of other Americans who also struggle to pay the debts they are tricked into running up with the credit card companies.

All of this is a long way of saying that while I wish the Department of Commerce were operating at full steam I do not have an inordinate amount of sympathy for the workers temporarily affected by it. Nor can I agree with those who argue that the current shutdown is Trump's and only Trump's fault. The leadership of the Democratic Party is using people's paychecks as leverage against the president, just as Republicans did in 2013. They are claiming, pace their position only a few years ago, that the construction of a border wall is on its face immoral rather than overly expensive or impractical. If they have genuinely changed their minds, more power to them. But they should understand that principles come with a price and that it cannot always be the GOP's fault.

I wonder when pollsters will finally come around to the fact that Americans hold many views that they don't necessarily wish to discuss over the telephone with strangers, even under the pretense of anonymity. One of these is almost certainly widespread indifference about the shutdown, which is not the same thing as thinking it is a good idea or something that should be sustained in order to ensure the construction of a border wall. In casual conversations with family, friends, and acquaintances in the rural Midwest over the last several weeks I have not heard a single person, including lifelong Democratic voters, express anything like the sort of horror that appears every day in newspapers and on cable television. Most people dismiss the shutdown as nothing but more paid time off for people who already receive more of it than they ever will. Are they wrong?

The answer to all of this should not, of course, be to congratulate people like us on our cynicism but wider recognition of the fact that economic uncertainty is not the exclusive province of otherwise well-remunerated unionized federal employees once every half decade or so.
 

IrishLax

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The Week's Matthew Walther just published an article titled "America's shutdown indifference":

I have two memories of the federal government shutdown of 2013. One is not actually mine but my wife's. At the time she was employed as a waitress at a restaurant in the Clarendon neighborhood of Arlington, Virginia. During those 16 days she waited on hundreds of furloughed government employees, in many cases during what would otherwise have been their ordinary working hours.

That's my hood! I want to know what restaurant.

The vast majority of these public servants left no tips regardless of the size of their bills, some of which were substantial. Many of them instead wrote notes politely explaining that they wished they could contribute a gratuity but given the circumstances they were sure everyone would understand. Perhaps they were under the impression that my wife and her co-workers, most of whom were African-American women who had made the long commute from over the river in Anacostia in order to serve novelty drinks and gigantic appetizer platters to these selfless officials, had Ted Cruz's cell number and could bring the whole thing to a halt if they so chose. Or maybe they were just being the lazy, entitled, self-aggrandizing make-work goons millions of Americans imagine them as.

I think I know which one it is! Especially considering anyone with the balls to eat out in over-priced Clarendon while complaining about their "destitute" situation is, certainly, a total twat. Especially because they effectively get free vacation time with their undeserved back pay for not working.

The other memory, which is less horrifying but even more ludicrous, is of barriers being erected around various D.C.-area landmarks, including open-air war memorials. To this day I cannot think of any good reason for this save sheer caprice. If the idea was that 550-foot obelisks made of granite simply could not be meaningfully serviced during those lean two weeks in 2013, then who was responsible for putting up the rent-a-fence barricades around them? Civic-minded volunteers? The U.S. Marine Corps? Barack Obama himself? It was beautifully cynical, and I congratulate whoever came up with it.

I mention these anecdotes not because I think the present record-setting shutdown is good or sane policy but because I am trying to illustrate why I and other Americans have a hard time caring much about it. In the popular imagination — and sometimes in dozens of little-read memos from the inspectors general of various departments — the average federal employee appears to be lazy, incompetent, performing meaningless tasks for too much pay, with an enviable array of benefits and other amenities (I still roll my eyes in disgust whenever I am reminded that there exist special credit unions for federal employees, whose pay and job security would be the envy of a hundred million other Americans). Government employees, at both the state and federal level, are among the only workers in the United States who continue to be represented by powerful unions, despite the fact that by definition they're not bargaining against capital but against their fellow citizens.

Straight truth.

This is to say nothing of the vast assortment of contractors, consultants, and hangers-on whose "work" has been temporarily interrupted by the shutdown. Their grotesque salaries have blighted the landscape with McMansions and driven housing prices in Maryland and northern Virginia to a level beyond what most families with children will ever be able to afford. So the people whose job it is to bid up the price of useless airplanes or dream up rival marketing schemes for some "cloud" project while our nation's capital lacks a functional public transit system are going to have .05 percent fewer billable hours for the year? Boo hoo.

Comparatively few people are outraged about the fact that as I write this General Motors and Ford are preparing to lay off many thousands of workers because management paid consultants millions of dollars to give them the idea. Few care about the shuttering of small auto parts plants, like this one in a small Michigan town not far from where I live, or the hourly employees affected, who lack the financial and other resources of our federal workforce. When Capital One kindly announces its "solutions" for customers affected by the shutdown, I ask myself why this courtesy is not extended to the millions of other Americans who also struggle to pay the debts they are tricked into running up with the credit card companies.

All of this is a long way of saying that while I wish the Department of Commerce were operating at full steam I do not have an inordinate amount of sympathy for the workers temporarily affected by it. Nor can I agree with those who argue that the current shutdown is Trump's and only Trump's fault. The leadership of the Democratic Party is using people's paychecks as leverage against the president, just as Republicans did in 2013. They are claiming, pace their position only a few years ago, that the construction of a border wall is on its face immoral rather than overly expensive or impractical. If they have genuinely changed their minds, more power to them. But they should understand that principles come with a price and that it cannot always be the GOP's fault.

I wonder when pollsters will finally come around to the fact that Americans hold many views that they don't necessarily wish to discuss over the telephone with strangers, even under the pretense of anonymity. One of these is almost certainly widespread indifference about the shutdown, which is not the same thing as thinking it is a good idea or something that should be sustained in order to ensure the construction of a border wall. In casual conversations with family, friends, and acquaintances in the rural Midwest over the last several weeks I have not heard a single person, including lifelong Democratic voters, express anything like the sort of horror that appears every day in newspapers and on cable television. Most people dismiss the shutdown as nothing but more paid time off for people who already receive more of it than they ever will. Are they wrong?

The answer to all of this should not, of course, be to congratulate people like us on our cynicism but wider recognition of the fact that economic uncertainty is not the exclusive province of otherwise well-remunerated unionized federal employees once every half decade or so.

Spoiler alert: they're not wrong.
 

Legacy

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The Week's Matthew Walther just published an article titled "America's shutdown indifference":

While good stories will often starting with illustrative individual experiences, he could have been brief despite illogical. He could have begun:
"because my wife was stiffed on her usual tips in the sixteen days of the 2013 shutdown and I saw barricades around DC monuments, I concluded based on our experiences with a partial percentage of the 40% of federal workforce affecte who live in the DC area - that the "average federal employee appears to be lazy, incompetent, performing meaningless tasks for too much pay, with an enviable array of benefits and other amenities". Can I get a hallelujah from the congregation?

Further generalizations on that select geographical population follow:
Their grotesque salaries have blighted the landscape with McMansions and driven housing prices in Maryland and northern Virginia to a level beyond what most families with children will ever be able to afford. So the people whose job it is to bid up the price of useless airplanes or dream up rival marketing schemes for some "cloud" project while our nation's capital lacks a functional public transit system are going to have .05 percent fewer billable hours for the year? Boo hoo.

Many federal workers live far away from D.C. due to the federal government taking advantage of some states' lower real estate costs for the government and possibly also for politicians wanting to bring jobs to their areas. While you can illustrate with the personal stories from many states, here's one in Utah and one in Texas.

Ogden is a suburb north of sprawling Salt Lake City, where you can walk the main street with brick buildings on either side and a Mormon church at the center.
Utah’s IRS workers protest the government shutdown and some seek help from a food pantry (Salt Lake Tribune)

Before Krystal Kirkpatrick rallied Thursday with fellow furloughed workers of the Internal Revenue Service, she made another stop that is now crucial for her family’s survival: visiting a food pantry.

As she pushed a shopping cart full of free bread, apples, eggs and canned goods to her car on a snowy street, she explained, “Things are getting pretty tight.

“I talked to our mortgage company. They don’t want to work with us. They said I could pay late and get a ding on my credit. Normally with the paycheck coming up, I would pay my mortgage. But instead I’m dipping into my savings to do that.”

She added, “When you are dipping into your saving $1,000 at a time, it doesn’t go far. Aren’t savings supposed to be for when you have a medical emergency or something like that? It’s not supposed to be for when you are stuck in the middle of a fight you didn’t start.”

That would be the ongoing partial government shutdown spurred by President Donald Trump’s refusal to sign a budget deal that doesn’t include $5.7 billion for a border wall. Congress, at least so far, has been unwilling to provide any money for a border wall. It is poised to become the nation’s longest-ever budget impasse. It began Dec. 22.

Kirkpatrick has sought other work without luck. “Temp agencies aren’t interested in us. When the shutdown finally ends, we have four hours to report back to work. Temp agencies know that.”

So Kirkpatrick, who helps with communications for the National Treasury Employees Union (NTEU) Chapter 67, said IRS workers in Ogden want to send a simple message: “It’s time to shut down the shutdown. Americans deserve to have their government open.”

About 150 furloughed federal workers and their supporters gathered at Ogden’s federal building in a snowstorm Thursday to chant, wave signs and commiserate.

NTEU Treasurer Shelly Carver asked the crowd, “Are you worried about paying your bills?” It responded in unison with a loud “yes.”

“Are you cutting back on spending?” A louder “yes” erupted. “Is your family feeling the stress of this long shutdown?” That brought the loudest shout.

Homemade signs in the crowd ranged from “Furlough Trump’s Presidency,” to “I can’t live on IOUs” to a picture of Trump as a crying baby throwing a tantrum.

Maybe the youngest protester was 6-month-old Luke Fralia. He was bundled under his father’s umbrella in a stroller with a sign saying “Formula Ain’t Free.”

Tyler Fralia, a furloughed IRS employee, said he had used most of his modest savings just before Christmas to pay for needed tires and car registration. He’s tried to find part-time work during the shutdown without success. “I’m looking at driving for Uber,” he said, and maybe donating blood for money.

He also was planning a trip to the food bank Friday. His story is similar to many of Utah’s roughly 9,000 impacted workers.

Before the rally Thursday, business was brisk at the food pantry of Catholic Community Services of Northern Utah — which recently started serving unpaid federal workers.

“We usually average serving about 100 families a day,” during the three hours a day the pantry is open, said Maresha Bosgieter, director of the charity. “This week, so far, we’ve had about an extra 50 to 60 families” each day.

She adds that many of the 5,000 people who work at the large IRS center in Ogden “are in more entry-level or clerical positions, so there’s definitely a lot of the lower-wage jobs here. There are many who definitely are living paycheck to paycheck, and so for them not to know where their next paycheck is coming is scary.”

Carver, with the labor union, said the median salary for IRS workers in Ogden is $44,000 annually. “We’re middle-class working people.”

She adds that many furloughed workers continue to pay for child care to hold their space with providers, especially needed if they must return to work quickly when the shutdown ends.

Pam, a furloughed employee who feared that giving her last name could endanger her job, said at the pantry that she has regularly participated in food drives held at the IRS.

“This is the first time I’ve had to come here for myself,” she said as she loaded her car. “I hope we go back to work soon so I can donate all of this back.” She said she had no savings and needed the free food to help make ends meet.

She lamented, “I do everything I am supposed to do. I work for the government. I served in the military. I obey the laws. ... Why doesn’t the government do what it is supposed to do?”

Federal workers are not the only ones hurting in Ogden. The Bickering Sisters restaurant across the street from the federal building has a sign explaining that it cut back its hours because of lost business from its federal-employee customers.

Businesses in Ogden are also suffering from the government shutdown. A sign on The Bickering Sisters restaurant across from the Federal Building in Ogden told customers that the eatery would be scaling back their hours of operation due to the lack of customers..

“It’s been really slow,” said cook Sherri Stutzman. “I’d say our business has been cut by about half.” She adds she doesn’t depend on tips, “but our server does. And she hasn’t been getting much lately.”

Many other businesses in Ogden similarly have lost business because of the shutdown, said Tom Christopulos, Ogden’s director of community and economic development.

“How long it goes really is the determining factor” on how it will affect the city budget from loss of sales tax, he said.

“We take in about $300,000 a week in sales tax,” he said, adding the amount lost as furloughed workers cut back “could be significant. If it goes on another week, it’s not a big deal. If it keeps going, it could be a fairly significant portion of our budget” and bring spending cuts.

Besides losses from IRS employees furloughed in Ogden, Christopulos said many others have been furloughed “by the Forest Service and other federal departments. We are also greatly affected by those who are furloughed at Hill Air Force Base. They also come into town and spend money — at least they did.”

I do not have an inordinate amount of sympathy for the workers temporarily affected by it.

Do Utahans really not care?
A way to ‘lighten the burden': Here’s what Utah companies are doing for furloughed employees affected by the government shutdown

Texas is one of the hardest hit by the federal shutdown with one of the largest federal workforces.

From Affordable Housing to Border Patrol, Here’s How the Government Shutdown is Affecting Texans (Texas Monthly)

Affordable Housing, Harvey Relief, Immigration Court Backlog, Parks and Rec, Farming, Law Enforcement and even Drinking are all the areas Texas is affected with losses to individuals and to the state and federal economies.

In casual conversations with family, friends, and acquaintances in the rural Midwest over the last several weeks I have not heard a single person, including lifelong Democratic voters, express anything like the sort of horror that appears every day in newspapers and on cable television. Most people dismiss the shutdown as nothing but more paid time off for people who already receive more of it than they ever will. Are they wrong?

The answer to all of this should not, of course, be to congratulate people like us on our cynicism but wider recognition of the fact that economic uncertainty is not the exclusive province of otherwise well-remunerated unionized federal employees once every half decade or so.

I thought he first started with reference to the 2013 shutdown. Two shutdowns were in the 1990s and three in the 1980s.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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His point, Legacy, is that Federal employees--even after factoring in the disruption of an occasional government shutdown once or twice a decade--still enjoy far better job security, remuneration and benefits than the average American does today. So all the sob stories about how the shutdown impacts those workers is probably producing the opposite of their intended effect on the public.
 

Legacy

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His point, Legacy, is that Federal employees--even after factoring in the disruption of an occasional government shutdown once or twice a decade--still enjoy far better job security, remuneration and benefits than the average American does today. So all the sob stories about how the shutdown impacts those workers is probably producing the opposite of their intended effect on the public.

My point, Whiskey, is that much of the federal workforce does not live in D.C., are part of their community, and that the individual families and the ripple effect on those communities suffer until the shutdown ends. I acknowledge that to some people whose communities are not affected look upon these as sob stories, which is often inaccurate, and that these are people who want to work but are effectively locked out.

How the Shutdown Affects Federal Employment in Each State (Governing magazine - for state and local issues) (Governing)

Of the top seven most read articles on Governing's site, four (including the top three) have to do with the Shutdown.

Another worth reading and the number two most read is:
The Federal Shutdown's Impact on States and Localities

I edited for the years of shutdowns probably while you were responding. Here's the link.
 
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