Politics

[pkt77242]

I guess I'm not understanding where you're drawing the line. In what scenario does an executive deserve jail time and how much? Is it only for "big business"?

If a meat packing plant hires illegals because no Americans are willing to do a job, the owners should go to jail?

What about a contractor who's a legal immigrant and hires his buddy (who is undocumented) to work on his crew?

What about someone who hires some day laborers and doesn't ask for papers? Or a couple that hires a cleaning lady? Would you send someone to jail for "negligence"?

IMO, I agree with points 1, 2, 3, and 5. But I have no idea why anyone deserves to go to jail for giving someone a job. I can't think of a single scenario where that would be reasonable to me.

For the record, I don't love the idea, illegal immigrants will continue to come here as long as they can get jobs, and businesses will continue to hire them because the law doesn't punish them severely enough. I don't know how you fix it without going after the people hiring them.

If something like this was passed I think that the company would have to employ a threshold of illegal immigrants, so hiring a landscaper who was an illegal immigrant wouldn't get you in trouble (or a nanny, a contractor or two, etc) but if a company was hiring 25 illegal immigrants (just picking a number not sure what exactly it would be), that becomes more problematic.

As to meat packing plants, I agree that they would be difficult. An idea would be that they could hire guest workers but before they could, they would have to prove that they made an attempt to hire people who were already legally here.

I am open to other ideas that would lessen the jobs available to illegal immigrants (after we made those already here legal) so that we could slow future immigration.

 

[wizards8507]

So you support people here working steady jobs, but you want to throw the people that hired them in jail?

It's not about punishment, it's about deterrence. This goes back to Romney's comments about "voluntary deportation." If no one hires illegals, the illegal flow slows.

Separately, the "jobs Americans won't do" argument is an economic fallacy. If Americans won't do a job at a given wage, then the employer will raise the wage. That's how wages rise without artifical minimums. Simple as that.

 

[phgreek]

What's he going to do, spend 4-6 trillion on wars and not pay for a dime of it while simultaneously cutting taxes and handling out a trillion each in Wall Street bailout and buying votes in Florida via medicare expansion?

...This is typical. Move the shell over here...look shiny thing.

See the thing is, Mr. Bush, while arguably not always correct, made decisions which he thought best protected this nation. He underestimated what it would take in the middle east...indeed a bad deal. But if you are comparing a wartime president's decision to take the fight to a proven hostile to unsustainable spending from Democrats in state and city governments...

well you are EXACTLY who I thought you've become.

As for the decisions made to bail out...I disagreed, but then many Democrats were for it. Until it was expedient to be against it. And spare me the special interest scheme shit...Democrats have had their own money laundering service through compulsory labor union contributions for eons...SMMFH.

 

[IrishLax]

It's not about punishment, it's about deterrence. This goes back to Romney's comments about "voluntary deportation." If no one hires illegals, the illegal flow slows.

Separately, the "jobs Americans won't do" argument is an economic fallacy. If Americans won't do a job at a given wage, then the employer will raise the wage. That's how wages rise without artifical minimums. Simple as that.

It's really not that simple though in a lot of industries. If the wages go up, then the cost goes up. As the cost of the service goes up, the demand for the service drops. And ultimately you have less of the service being performed... and the job effectively disappears.

There are many obvious examples of this, most of them involve services of either convenience.

 

[IrishinSyria]

...This is typical. Move the shell over here...look shiny thing.

See the thing is, Mr. Bush, while arguably not always correct, made decisions which he thought best protected this nation. He underestimated what it would take in the middle east...indeed a bad deal. But if you are comparing a wartime president's decision to take the fight to a proven hostile to unsustainable spending from Democrats in state and city governments...

well you are EXACTLY who I thought you've become.

As for the decisions made to bail out...I disagreed, but then many Democrats were for it. Until it was expedient to be against it. And spare me the special interest scheme shit...Democrats have had their own money laundering service through compulsory labor union contributions for eons...SMMFH.

Not speaking for Buster, but I think the point is less about the quality of the decision as much as it is the lolziness of Republicans acting like they'll cut spending.

It's literally never happened in the past 50 years.

 

[IrishinSyria]

It's really not that simple though in a lot of industries. If the wages go up, then the cost goes up. As the cost of the service goes up, the demand for the service drops. And ultimately you have less of the service being performed... and the job effectively disappears.

There are many obvious examples of this, most of them involve services of either convenience.

Yeah, econ 101 kind of breaks down in an interconnected world. If you can't get melon growers to grow melons for less then $15/hour in Cali, the answer might not be to raise their wages to $20/hour but to start buying all your melons from Mexico.

 

[phgreek]

Not speaking for Buster, but I think the point is less about the quality of the decision as much as it is the lolziness of Republicans acting like they'll cut spending.

It's literally never happened in the past 50 years.

Um at the state and city level...where I thought this discussion was focused...you sure you got that right?

No politician at the federal level gets elected and stays in office w/o eventually falling victim to the beast...My responses to buster were clearly qualified such that I knew he was doing the diversion tactic to Federal level shit, and I engaged on the "shiny" things while acknowledging my point was state and City/Local.

 

[NDgradstudent]

You seriously used a McCarthyism era program that was a humanitarian nightmare, expensive to administer, ineffective, and ultimately stopped as your model for US immigration policy?

A "McCarthyism era program"? To the contrary, the program was a roaring success. Nothing the government does is perfect, but so what? That is just avoiding the central issue.

Also, I'd like to know: do you believe that illegal immigrants who are arrested should be deported?

LOL. First off Operation Wetback was horrible (remember we even shipped some U.S. Citizens to Mexico). Then you use Arizona as a place where enforcement works? Funny shit there. I live in AZ and our "enforcement" is about racial profiling and discrimination. You have got to be fucking kidding me. Then again I shouldn't be surprised.

Since you posted the Wikipedia link, here is the perfect quote from it: "In terms of apprehensions, Operation Wetback was immediately successful. However, this success would be short lived, as the program would fail to limit the number of workers entering the United States from Mexico illegally"

So just to be clear, it is "racial profiling and discrimination" to attempt to determine if somebody is in the country legally. This means your position is that immigration laws should not be enforced, as I said.

This is the Democratic position: it's perfectly fine for sanctuary cities to ignore immigration laws (and let loose murderers upon their residents) but when a jurisdiction actually stands up for the interests of its own people and attempts to enforce federal immigration law, we go into full lefty Mizzou racism screech mode.

 

[phgreek]

LOL. Have you looked at what Jindal and the Republicans have done to them fiscally? I believe that it is similar to dropping a bar of soap in prison.

Where have they overspent, or created outyear liabilities that can't possibly be supported??? (And no...tax cuts don't count). I'm seriously asking because I don't know specifics of what Jindal has left in his wake. It seemed he was reasonably conservative...

 

[IrishinSyria]

A "McCarthyism era program"? To the contrary, the program was a roaring success. Nothing the government does is perfect, but so what? That is just avoiding the central issue.

Also, I'd like to know: do you believe that illegal immigrants who are arrested should be deported?



So just to be clear, it is "racial profiling and discrimination" to attempt to determine if somebody is in the country legally. This means your position is that immigration laws should not be enforced, as I said.

This is the Democratic position: it's perfectly fine for sanctuary cities to ignore immigration laws (and let loose murderers upon their residents) but when a jurisdiction actually stands up for the interests of its own people and attempts to enforce federal immigration law, we go into full lefty Mizzou racism screech mode.

If someone is arrested for probable cause of being involved in a felony, there should be an expedited process allowing for them to be deported as an alternative to criminal prosecution. Prima facie standard or something.

Outside of that, if they're in the US and they're not breaking the law (other than being in here) I don't see the issue.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Challenge for all the cowa, I mean conservatives, out there who are opposed to giving Syrians asylum. Identify the vulnerabilities in this process:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...t-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 

[JughedJones]

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7QCWo-lIt3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


It's a new Zion.

Are you pickin' up? Are you Big Enough? Jah Love.

 

[wizards8507]

It's really not that simple though in a lot of industries. If the wages go up, then the cost goes up. As the cost of the service goes up, the demand for the service drops. And ultimately you have less of the service being performed... and the job effectively disappears.

If it costs $10 to produce a pound of strawberries at market wages but people are only willing to pay $8 a pound, then strawberries are not worth producing.

 

[JughedJones]

If it costs $10 to produce a pound of strawberries at market wages but people are only willing to pay $8 a pound, then strawberries are not worth producing.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Srkm5oWFwiQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ykE01rSf9Bo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[JughedJones]

Fuck Marxism
Fuck Socialism
Fuck Capitalism
Fuck Anarchism
White man's got a whole lot of solutions
White man's got a whole lot of problems
White man's got a lot of bright ideas
White man like to play God
White man says, he says that God is a white man.
Everybody else and everything else gets systematically objectified
Fuck Communism
Fuck Democracy
Fuck science
Fuck reason and rationality
White man's got a whole lot of solutions
White man's got a whole lot of problems
White man's got a lot of bright ideas
White man like to play God
White man says, he says that God is a white man.
Everybody else and everything else gets systematically objectified
White man says, he says nature is not a part of God
White man's got progress, but its only pollution
White man's got technology, it's only confusion
White man's got Nature yeah, and he's got the papers to prove it
White man's got a bomb and he's stupid enough to use it
White man says, he says that God is a white man
Everybody else and everything else gets systematically objectified
White man says, he says nature is not a part of God
To kill her becomes justified
White man says, yellow man, red man black man they are not a part of God
To kill them becomes justified
Man against God
Man against Nature
Man against Woman
Man against child
Man against Man

 

[JughedJones]

Fire up the truck and go to Sonoma.


So the rich white man can print up his same batch of lies.

AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!!!!

 

[JughedJones]

My beloved sister called me on the phone today
She said, "I hate to be the one to tell you this"
My beloved sister called me on the phone today
She said, "Lucky Dog shot himself in the head today"

My beloved brother called me on the phone today
He said, "I saw them take his body away"
He said, "I found a note next to a rock of speed
It said, give my dog to my folks
Sell my shit, I can't trust anyone, goodbye"

Got me to thinking how we used to drive around
Listen to NWA and steal people's recycle
Got me to thinking how we cut up every door
In the house, burn them up in the fireplace

Got me to thinking how we used to hang out the window
Fish for pigeons and little black girls
Got me to thinking how we used to do dumb shit
And think it was so cool

Hey, kid I hope you know
Sometimes life is gonna suck
Hey, kid I hope you know
Sometimes everything is gonna be fucked up

Hey, kid I hope you know
The only way around your problems is straight through them
Nothing is insurmountable, nothing is undo able
Nothing is unbeatable, nothing is impossible



Read more: Fifteen - Lucky Lyrics | MetroLyrics

 

[JughedJones]

I don't need to kill anyone, cuz it's all in my head, do I believe
That the women and the children, and the animals are my property
I don't need to kill anyone, cuz it's all in my head, do I believe
That to get through the today I need nicotine, I need caffeine, I need speed Evolve, love

 

[IrishinSyria]

If it costs $10 to produce a pound of strawberries at market wages but people are only willing to pay $8 a pound, then strawberries are not worth producing.

This assumes a lot, namely that 1) maximizing utility is the only worthwhile goal and 2) that there are no positive externalities involved in domestic strawberry production. It's also kind of weird to argue that we should use government power to limit the market (by expelling illegal immigrants) for labor because we want to subject strawberry production to the unaltered force of the free market.

 

[wizards8507]

It's also kind of weird to argue that we should use government power to limit the market (by expelling illegal immigrants) for labor because we want to subject strawberry production to the unaltered force of the free market.

My prescription is not the use of government power by deportation. My prescription is the elimination of government power by killing the minimum wage, which is part of what's driving illegal immigration in the first place. The minimum wage is exactly what's causing the illegal immigrant to be the only viable source of labor, leading to a market inefficiency for legal labor. The minimum wage has priced out domestic workers and legal immigrants from doing the job. My preferred solution would be to eliminate the wage floor and the illegal immigrants would be replaced by legal immigrants. We'd be going from undocumented immigrants making $5 per hour illegally to documented American citizens (the same folks from Mexico) making $5 per hour legally.

This assumes a lot, namely that 1) maximizing utility is the only worthwhile goal and 2) that there are no positive externalities involved in domestic strawberry production.

Obviously strawberries were just an example. I believe the consumer values variety and other intangible, often social goals. Maximizing utility and consideration of externalities are not mutually exclusive. For example, my wife and I support companies like Warby Parker and Toms Shoes. The producer and the consumer are not the only parties to a transaction, and consumers are capable of making decisions with that in mind. So to my example, IF the cost of strawberry production exceeded the consumers' willingness to pay, it's probably not an endeavor worth undertaking. But I don't think that "if" would be true.

 

[JughedJones]

My prescription is not the use of government power by deportation. My prescription is the elimination of government power by killing the minimum wage, which is part of what's driving illegal immigration in the first place. The minimum wage is exactly what's causing the illegal immigrant to be the only viable source of labor, leading to a market inefficiency for legal labor. The minimum wage has priced out domestic workers and legal immigrants from doing the job. My preferred solution would be to eliminate the wage floor and the illegal immigrants would be replaced by legal immigrants. We'd be going from undocumented immigrants making $5 per hour illegally to documented American citizens (the same folks from Mexico) making $5 per hour legally.


Obviously strawberries were just an example. I believe the consumer values variety and other intangible, often social goals. Maximizing utility and consideration of externalities are not mutually exclusive. For example, my wife and I support companies like Warby Parker and Toms Shoes. The producer and the consumer are not the only parties to a transaction, and consumers are capable of making decisions with that in mind. So to my example, IF the cost of strawberry production exceeded the consumers' willingness to pay, it's probably not an endeavor worth undertaking. But I don't think that "if" would be true.

"My prescription is the elimination of government power by killing the minimum wage, which is part of what's driving illegal immigration in the first place."


Holy crap.

I really hope you guys keep thinking this way. If you really think that wages drive the cost of goods... we win.

The pendulum is swinging to the right now, it's your turn. Keep it up with that kind of silly thought and we'll have it back real soon.

 

[potownhero]

It's really not that simple though in a lot of industries. If the wages go up, then the cost goes up. As the cost of the service goes up, the demand for the service drops. And ultimately you have less of the service being performed... and the job effectively disappears.

There are many obvious examples of this, most of them involve services of either convenience.

It is that simple.
Depending on the Elasticity of Demand, your argument is just over how much wages go up....

 

[wizards8507]

"My prescription is the elimination of government power by killing the minimum wage, which is part of what's driving illegal immigration in the first place."

Holy crap.

I really hope you guys keep thinking this way. If you really think that wages drive the cost of goods... we win.

The pendulum is swinging to the right now, it's your turn. Keep it up with that kind of silly thought and we'll have it back real soon.

My argument is not about the cost of goods, my argument is about government regulation causing illegal activity to be profitable. Illegal immigration in the era of the minimum wage is like bootlegging in the era of prohibition. If a grower/packer/producer/manufacturer can't control costs with domestic or legal immigrant labor because the government has made it illegal to hire someone at the market wage, he's going to hire illegal immigrants, which draws more illegal immigrants into the country, which perpetuates the cycle.

I'll put it in terms you can understand. If recreational drugs were legal, there would be no more profit to be had in the illicit drug trade. The criminal infrastructure and associated violence would disappear almost overnight. Likewise, if it wasn't profitable to hire illegal immigrants, illegal immigration would stop and we wouldn't have to deport a single person.

 

[potownhero]

Yeah, econ 101 kind of breaks down in an interconnected world. If you can't get melon growers to grow melons for less then $15/hour in Cali, the answer might not be to raise their wages to $20/hour but to start buying all your melons from Mexico.

All Melons? Really?

Why not let the market offer the option? What about all the "buy local" and "buy American" campaigns? I know that I would be willing to pay a few extra bucks for a good number of things to support fellow Americans. What's wrong with having an option offered?

Buy American - Pay $10
Buy Foriegn - Pay $8

 

[JughedJones]

My argument is not about the cost of goods, my argument is about government regulation causing illegal activity to be profitable. Illegal immigration in the era of the minimum wage is like bootlegging in the era of prohibition. If a grower/packer/producer/manufacturer can't control costs with domestic or legal immigrant labor because the government has made it illegal to hire someone at the market wage, he's going to hire illegal immigrants, which draws more illegal immigrants into the country, which perpetuates the cycle.

I'll put it in terms you can understand. If recreational drugs were legal, there would be no more profit to be had in the illicit drug trade. The criminal infrastructure and associated violence would disappear almost overnight. Likewise, if it wasn't profitable to hire illegal immigrants, illegal immigration would stop and we wouldn't have to deport a single person.

You would hate to know we agree on some things, you're just stuck in a Drudge Report mentality, that's what keeps us from being friends.

Tell me when you're reasonable.

 

[IrishLax]

Melons and strawberries aren't even the most clear cut example.

Take house cleaning. Let's say you have a market where people are willing to pay $100 to have their home cleaned, but then you get rid of everyone willing to do it for that price. And "Americans" who view that kind of work as below them are only willing to do it for $200.

Obviously, there is going to be a large chunk of people not willing to pay that and will just clean their houses themselves. So those jobs that previously existed now disappear as the market for those services has contracted.

This applies to a multitude of industries. The "solution" isn't allowing illegal immigration... but throughout US history, immigrants have filled these roles, and the best case scenario would be allowing for documented, legal workers to come here to fill these jobs.

At the same time, the United States has an issue with far too many people in both blue collar and white collar positions being here on what amounts to be permanent work visas taking away jobs that US citizens want. So nothing is easy about immigration... at best it's a delicate balancing act that I don't have enough information or foresight to say how to "fix" it.

 

[IrishLax]

It is that simple.
Depending on the Elasticity of Demand, your argument is just over how much wages go up....

Assume everyone here has taken ECON101, and understands how supply & demand curves work.

The point of what I was saying (that you missed) is that high demand breeds jobs, and if you curb demand through high costs then jobs disappear. If you don't care about employment rates, than that doesn't matter. But most people still consider that a major tenet of a productive, successful society.

In that case, it is better to have 100 people working facilitated by a lower cost of service/goods, than half an industry disappears but 50% more people are doing much better for themselves.

Take the fast food worker campaign towards $15/hr... do you think that they know that if they got all their demands a huge percentage of fast food places would simply close their doors? Because when you walk everything through to it's logical conclusion... costs rise, demand shrinks... what happens is that half those people are out of a job, but the other half are better off. And that's exactly what I'm talking about, especially in industries that either 1) don't need to exist 2) can be outsourced.

 

[IrishinSyria]

My prescription is not the use of government power by deportation. My prescription is the elimination of government power by killing the minimum wage, which is part of what's driving illegal immigration in the first place. The minimum wage is exactly what's causing the illegal immigrant to be the only viable source of labor, leading to a market inefficiency for legal labor. The minimum wage has priced out domestic workers and legal immigrants from doing the job. My preferred solution would be to eliminate the wage floor and the illegal immigrants would be replaced by legal immigrants. We'd be going from undocumented immigrants making $5 per hour illegally to documented American citizens (the same folks from Mexico) making $5 per hour legally.


Obviously strawberries were just an example. I believe the consumer values variety and other intangible, often social goals. Maximizing utility and consideration of externalities are not mutually exclusive. For example, my wife and I support companies like Warby Parker and Toms Shoes. The producer and the consumer are not the only parties to a transaction, and consumers are capable of making decisions with that in mind. So to my example, IF the cost of strawberry production exceeded the consumers' willingness to pay, it's probably not an endeavor worth undertaking. But I don't think that "if" would be true.

Yeah, I mean I do think there's a good reason for minimum wage laws, but I don't have any bones with your analysis. I thought you were jumping in to support NDGRAD's deport all illegals stand.

 

[phgreek]

Challenge for all the cowa, I mean conservatives, out there who are opposed to giving Syrians asylum. Identify the vulnerabilities in this process:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...t-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Again typical ...

1) the house had more than conservatives on Board, unless I forgot how to count
2) Obama’s Statement from 2011 Shatters His Current Remarks on Bringing Refugees Into the US
3) Terror threat slows Iraqi refugee flow to U.S. | Navy Times | navytimes.com


Apparently Coward is a word you use to describe people who do not agree with President Obama...which is SO TYPICAL it is funny.

I agreed with the President in 2011, and I think the measures he supported then make sense NOW. I'm sorry I'm not looking you in they eye so you could see the coward I am.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Apparently Coward is a word you use to describe people who do not agree with President Obama...which is SO TYPICAL it is funny.

It's the same on both sides. There's a laundry list of things that conservatives in congress supported before Obama came out in favor of them. That was the McConnell mandate.