Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

NDgradstudent

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Basically, yes. if the Jewish baker routinely makes cakes that say "Happy Birthday (insert name here)" he should not be able to discriminate based on the person's political beliefs. If this were Germany and espousing Nazi beliefs was illegal, that would be a different question.

On the other hand, if they wanted a cake in the shape of a swastika, it seems equally obvious that the Jewish baker would not have to bake it, as that is a product he does not usually make. Same if the baker is Kosher and they want the cake to be dairy and shellfish or something.

The toughest question would be if they wanted the cake to say "Heil Hitler" or something like that.

This is ridiculous. The government owns you and can make all important decisions for you once you open a bakery?

Why is it obvious that on your view the baker would not have to make a cake in the shape of a swastika? If they make cakes in other special shapes, such as animals, sports logos, cars, airplanes, etc., to refuse to make the swastika cake would seem to be impermissible discrimination on your view.

What about this cake? Would they have to make it or not? http://media.carbonated.tv/38066_story__nazi.jpg

If you are willing to use the power of the state to punish people who do not conform to some popular view, you need to give precise answers to these hypotheticals.
 

pkt77242

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This is ridiculous. The government owns you and can make all important decisions for you once you open a bakery?

Why is it obvious that on your view the baker would not have to make a cake in the shape of a swastika? If they make cakes in other special shapes, such as animals, sports logos, cars, airplanes, etc., to refuse to make the swastika cake would seem to be impermissible discrimination on your view.

What about this cake? Would they have to make it or not? http://media.carbonated.tv/38066_story__nazi.jpg

If you are willing to use the power of the state to punish people who do not conform to some popular view, you need to give precise answers to these hypotheticals.

Seriously?

It is pretty easy. If a bakery has a menu and it lists cake options such as specific animals, car and airplanes (but not a swastika) then it is permissible to deny someone who wants a specialty cake made in the form of a swastika. It is not a right to have anything you want made if it is not on the menu, but it should be a right to walk into a store and order off their menu. So if their menu has a swastika cake on it, then yes you should be able to order it. Just as if the bakery has a menu that has a "happy birthday _____" where you fill in the blank, then anyone should be able to order that cake with just about any name put into it (obviously companies are allowed to say no to things such as FuckFace or something along that line, companies are generally allowed to ban obscenities). Happy Birthday Jerry should be allowed whether Jerry is gay, straight, religious, an atheist, Democrat, Republican or a member of the neo-nazi party. It is on your menu, then make it.
 

pkt77242

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As wizards pointed out several pages ago, the vast majority of American LLCs are taxed as sole proprietorships. So the distinction between individual and corporation is not nearly as clear as you're making it seem.

This ultimately comes down to two groups having irreconcilable visions of the Good. We can either negotiate some sort of pluralistic compromise, or we can dig in for increasingly divise culture wars.

I don't think it should matter how they are taxed. The LLC grants benefits to a company that aren't available to a Sole Proprietorship or an individual and that is the distinction that is important. Otherwise you are basically letting LLCs take the best of both worlds.
 

irishff1014

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A Portland coffee shop, yes:


Sound Off Friday: Portland coffee shop refuses service to cops. Disgusting or within their rights? | News - KXLY.com

Not just two uniformed cops, they won't serve ANY cops. In fact, here is another article about how the owner of the shop called 911 about a guy overdosing on heroin in the bathroom, and he told the dispatcher not to send any cops, because they would not be allowed inside.

Co-owner of restaurant tells 911 not to send police | KATU Investigators | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon

That's a shame considering that a lot of police officers are know carrying narcan to reverse the effects of heroin. And if the medic units are tied up it could mean life of death.
 

pkt77242

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Let's say an orthodox Catholic couple is looking for an in-home caretaker for their children. They interview several candidates, including one lesbian, but decide to hire someone else over her because a majority of the LGBT community holds political, ideological and theological views that are hostile to their own.

If sexual orientation becomes a protected class, that caretaker could sue the orthodox Catholic couple for violating the CRA. There are, of course, horror stories going the other way as well, wherein a very capable and respectful gay person is fired for no apparent reason, and has no legal recourse because sexual orientation isn't a protected class.

My point is that the CRA is a blunt instrument, and adding classes to it which obviously conflict (Religion and Sexual Orientation) is going to create a ton of problems. I'd support it if it came with strong Right of Conscience exemptions, but very few on the left are willing to compromise on this issue.

Then why does religion get that benefit? You could easily flip the example to a gay couple trying to hire an in-home caretaker for their children, shouldn't they have the same rights as the orthodox catholic couple? If not why?

I think that is the biggest chasm between the two sides. Gay Rights Advocates just want gay people to have the same rights as anyone else (including religious people), but Religious Conservatives do no want to give gay people the same rights. Many people (not you) claim that gay people want special treatment, when in truth all they want is the same treatment. Do you have a compelling reason to deny gay people the same rights? Do they not deserve the same protections as a religious person?
 
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NDgradstudent

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Seriously?

It is pretty easy. If a bakery has a menu and it lists cake options such as specific animals, car and airplanes (but not a swastika) then it is permissible to deny someone who wants a specialty cake made in the form of a swastika. It is not a right to have anything you want made if it is not on the menu, but it should be a right to walk into a store and order off their menu. So if their menu has a swastika cake on it, then yes you should be able to order it.

Yes, seriously.

What if it just says "we make cakes in custom shapes"? Yes or no on the swastika cake?
 

NDgradstudent

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Then why does religion get that benefit? You could easily flip the example to a gay couple trying to hire an in-home caretaker for their children, shouldn't they have the same rights as the orthodox catholic couple? If not why?

If some in-home caretaker does not want to work for an orthodox Catholic couple, fine by me. I will hire someone else. Why would I want to hire someone who would only work for me with the government holding to a gun to his head? God forbid the government not regulate something, though.
 

pkt77242

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If some in-home caretaker does not want to work for an orthodox Catholic couple, fine by me. I will hire someone else. Why would I want to hire someone who would only work for me with the government holding to a gun to his head? God forbid the government not regulate something, though.

Um, that isn't what I was saying.

I also laughed at the bold. Really? We are having this conversation because the government passed a regulation that you are defending. LOL.
 
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pkt77242

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Yes, seriously.

What if it just says "we make cakes in custom shapes"? Yes or no on the swastika cake?

Yes, if a company leaves it that broad then that is their problem. They really should be more specific as the Devil is in the details. Something like "We make custom sports team, planes and cars cakes".

Edit: I would say that this is the one area that I can see disagreement over. Though this has nothing to do with wedding cakes and is completely off topic.
 
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IrishinSyria

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Re: the cake issue. I think the right way to look at it is "why is the company refusing to make the cake."

If the company would make a Swastika cake for known non Nazis, then they should also make the same cake for known neo-Nazis.

If the company would not make a Swastika cake for anyone, then they are not discriminating against anyone's right by refusing to make it for Jerry the Nazi.

If they advertise "we make cakes in custom shapes" then they can safely argue that they have no obligation to make the Swastika cake, because surely "custom shapes" does not mean any custom shape.

If, on the other hand, they advertise that "we make cakes in any custom shape," then I think there is a good case to be made that they have to fulfill the Swastika cake order, assuming that it wasn't common trade practice for "custom shaped cakes" to only include non-offensive custom shaped cakes.

But your original question was should the cake maker be allowed to refuse to make a birthday cake for the neo-nazi? I think the answer is an unequivocal no. If this is what you sell:

images


It should be available to anyone.
 
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Cackalacky

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Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act Allows Private Businesses to Discriminate Against Employees Based on Sexual Orientation — Atlantic Mobile


While I have read most of the posts recently and many are making some fine points, I am not sure why I am not seeing more people upset at what appears to be yet another attempt to USE religion as an excuse to discriminate. We all know who wrote this language. We all know that it was written to avoid previous legal traps and implement successful strategies from previous iterations and is based on the same religious freedom arguments that still hang around. The above article does give an interesting point of view.

It is my understanding and belief that religious freedom is the right to practice your religion, not to use your religion to harm others. So it's very disturbing to me to see the first amendment perverted like this. Especially now that the new form of religious freedom is being directly tied to for profit businesses. A not so complex issue being made complex for the sake of trying to implement religious based power over a group of people. This story has been told before, many times, and it doesn't end well.
 

NDgradstudent

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I also laughed at the bold. Really? We are having this conversation because the government passed a regulation that you are defending. LOL.

There's one pretty big difference between "regulations" like RFRA and the sort you want to defend: in passing a RFRA, the government is regulating itself by limiting what it can do to people. The government cannot use a RFRA to imprison or fine anyone. It constantly uses anti-discrimination laws to do those things.
 

IrishinSyria

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Buster Bluth

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Some lad on Reddit had this to say about the Indiana law:

Why the Indiana Religious Freedom Law really matters.

The reason is not because of discrimination against gays. But it is because of Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores Inc. Republican Indiana state representatives have voiced their willingness to add an amendment to SB 101. This is because it’s not the discrimination these legislators care about. It is the inclusion of for-profit corporations ability to sue on the basis of religious freedom. Section 7 “As used in this chapter, "person" includes the following… (3) A partnership, a limited liability company, a corporation, a company, a firm, a society, a joint-stock company, an unincorporated association, or another entity that:(A) may sue and be sued;”

This isn’t any definition to what constitutes a religious belief. Religion doctrine can be self-determined and established as precedent for the law. “Sec. 5. As used in this chapter, "exercise of religion" includes any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to,a system of religious belief.”

Due to the Affordable Care Act, colloquially known as ObamaCare, employer health care programs must pay for birth control and other reproductive health services. If a for-profit company fails to provide these services they will face $100 per day. By passing a law that allows corporations to sue the government on basis of “substantial burden” businesses in Indiana will have a legal standing to combat ObamaCare requirements.

There are 19 other states with a Religious Freedom Restoration Act. These other bills lack one key component though. Section 9 states, “regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” This means that private citizens and private companies are able to exclude others based on their religious views. Imagine a corporation refusing to adhere to carbon emission rates, because God created mankind to hold dominion over the Earth. This is a possibility under this new legislation.
 

IrishJayhawk

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I wish you'd posted that article before I combed through Connecticut's legal code looking for a definition section that said person includes corporation for the purposes of this act. All the people claiming the CT statute was the same as the Indiana one had me convinced it had to be there.

I posted the exact same article yesterday at 3:02pm.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Indiana Lawmakers Admit "No Gays" Signs Will be Allowed

“You guys have said repeatedly that we shouldn’t be able to discriminate against anyone, but if you just ignore the existence of this law, can’t we already do that now? Can’t so-and-so in Richmond put a sign up and say ‘No Gays Allowed?'” she asked. “That’s not against the law, correct?”

“It would depend,” Bosma replied. “If you were in a community that had a human rights ordinance that wouldn’t be the case.”

“But most of the state does not have that, correct?” the reporter pressed.

“That’s correct,” Bosma admitted.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I'm very interested in watching this play out since so many people are certain this is simply a law meant to allow people with religious belief to discriminate against the LGBT community.

It appears the majority of the public do not want to allow anyone operating a business to honor his/her conscience when it comes to the nebulous notion of morality. "because a business is not a person"

@Cackalacky,

What "harm" do you speak of? Is the government allowed to "harm" business owners who would be complicit in something they view as immoral?

Also, what religious based power is being proffered by this bill? The right to deny service? You really throw around some self-assured opinions on this without reading what's been posted, interesting tactic.
 

EddytoNow

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This is ridiculous. The government owns you and can make all important decisions for you once you open a bakery?

Why is it obvious that on your view the baker would not have to make a cake in the shape of a swastika? If they make cakes in other special shapes, such as animals, sports logos, cars, airplanes, etc., to refuse to make the swastika cake would seem to be impermissible discrimination on your view.

What about this cake? Would they have to make it or not? http://media.carbonated.tv/38066_story__nazi.jpg

If you are willing to use the power of the state to punish people who do not conform to some popular view, you need to give precise answers to these hypotheticals.

Read what you have written. The State of Indiana has used its political power to punish someone who has not conformed to some popular view. They have written a law that allows individuals and businesses to discriminate against the LGBT community because they don't conform to a particular Christian view of the world. In a sense, Indiana has legalized discrimination.

Does a Catholic employer in Indiana now have the right to discriminate against someone who has divorced and remarried because the Catholic Church doesn't recognize divorce? I would hope not.

If we are honest about this issue, it is simply an end-around permitting discrimination against the LGBT community. Do Christians believe that God created the universe and everything in it. If so, he created the lesbians, gays, bi-sexuals, and tran-sexuals that exist in his world.
 
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Cackalacky

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I'm very interested in watching this play out since so many people are certain this is simply a law meant to allow people with religious belief to discriminate against the LGBT community.

It appears the majority of the public do not want to allow anyone operating a business to honor his/her conscience when it comes to the nebulous notion of morality. "because a business is not a person"

@Cackalacky,

What "harm" do you speak of? Is the government allowed to "harm" business owners who would be complicit in something they view as immoral?

Also, what religious based power is being proffered by this bill? The right to deny service? You really throw around some self-assured opinions on this without reading what's been posted, interesting tactic.

I choose my words very carefully. I also have a habit of being too succinct for the sake of brevity but I have no tactic other to offer an opinion and hopefully keep the convo moving. I did read what others have said, as I clearly stated so (even though I missed Jayhawks post). I kind of take offense to your insinuation.

Its not hard to understand or recall the harm I mean and if you are not aware of it then you are not paying attention or are living in some sort of revisionist history paradise. The harm being the same harm that is justified by any piece of legislation, which is SUPPOSED TO BE SECULAR which seeks to disenfranchise one group in favor over another.

And further, the freedom of religion IS simultaneously freedom from religion and is a massive double-edged sword. But in the secular world, religion tends to lose out because it is, by many definitions, non-inclusive in many deeply held cultural convictions.
 
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IrishLax

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Some lad on Reddit had this to say about the Indiana law:

Isn't the end... "Imagine a corporation refusing to adhere to carbon emission rates, because God created mankind to hold dominion over the Earth. This is a possibility under this new legislation."... just completely inaccurate though? Because when they'd defend that position in court, it would lose. Every time.

I think one of the biggest issues is the difference between the hypothetical and the realistic in this debate.
 

IrishLax

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Read what you have written. The State of Indiana has used its political power to punish someone who has not conformed to some popular view. They have written a law that allows individuals and businesses to discriminate against the LGBT community because they don't conform to a particular Christian view of the world. In a sense, Indiana has legalized discrimination.

This is what I'm still failing to understand. The bolded and what Jayhawk posted seem to agree, but actually they contradict.

The truth is that right now in every place in this country that doesn't specifically have gays listed as a protected class, you can already hang a no gays sign. So this law doesn't actually change the status quo at all relative to discrimination against gays. You're already allowed to do it 100% legally everywhere in the country that doesn't have a local law forbidding it.

So this law hasn't actually legislated anything of note. If someone hung a "no gays" sign today versus a month ago it still stands on the same legal ground. It has made no change to the status quo of the legality of discrimination against gays. That's what I really don't understand still about the uproar... is the uproar over the law itself? Or is the uproar over the fact that gays aren't a universally protected class?
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I choose my words very carefully. I also have a habit of being too succinct for the sake of brevity but I have no tactic other to offer an opinion and hopefully keep the convo moving. I did read what others have said, as I clearly stated so (even though I missed Jayhawks post). I kind of take offense to your insinuation.

Its not hard to understand or recall the harm I mean and if you are not aware of it then you are not paying attention or are living in some sort of revisionist history paradise. The harm being the same harm that is justified by any piece of legislation, which is SUPPOSED TO BE SECULAR which seeks to disenfranchise one group in favor over another.

And further, the freedom of religion IS simultaneously freedom from religion and is a massive double-edged sword. But in the secular world, religion tends to lose out because it is, by many definitions, non-inclusive in many deeply held cultural convictions.

I took a leap on the ole "jump to conclusions mat", my apologies. I thought you said you hadn't read any of the posts, then what you wrote seemed to further support that notion.

Freedom of religion is: The First Amendment prohibits the federal government from making a law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". The 'respecting an establishment of religion' is what I presume you are pseudo-quoting in your "freedom from religion" post.

It appears this freedom from religion is intended to prevent a state-sanctioned religion, which this new law does not do. Nor does it coerce others to join a religion or religious group. Nor is it specific to Christians. Nor does it prevent the LGBT community from receiving service in the state of Indiana.

On the other hand, it has been proven that most people believe a business owner loses their right to the first amendment if they want to conduct business in the public market while simultaneously honoring their conscience. This bill was meant to prevent that from happening should litigation ensue.
 

pkt77242

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Yes, it's the RFRA of 1993, but also extended to businesses because of Elane Photography v. Willock. As one who is legitimately concerned about the state of religious freedom in this country, I can easily see this bill being passed in good faith. Your focus on the alleged intent behind the bill, regardless of its content or the precedent set by the RFRA over the past couple decades, makes it clear that you're primarily concerned with punishing evil-doers here.



The protected class thing is a separate argument, and will have even more unintended consequences than SSM. If the issue is reciprocity between Christian- and LGBT-owned businesses being able to refuse business, then that can be easily addresses without smearing one side as bigoted.


There's a difference between insisting on the inherent dignity of LGBT individuals and forcing everyone to pretend that a SSM is identical to a procreative union. But this is just one of a thousand problems that have arisen from divorcing the language of "rights" from the Christian context in which they arose.



If this is about revenge, then it makes sense. But don't call it justice. And I won't for a moment argue that Christians haven't mistreated the LGBT community. But this is not how politics in a liberal democracy are supposed to work.


Not about revenge, that is where you are wrong, it is about equal rights for the gay community. Being passive didn't work at getting the LGBT community equal rights, so now they are fighting for them. What is the LGBT community supposed to do, sit back and take being discriminated against? Is that what every minority group should do when faced with discrimination?

And one would hope that the Catholic patron, as a fellow "son of Abraham" and a respectful member of the same community, wouldn't choose to act like a litigious as$hole and sue the orthodox Jewish baker over it.

It's worth noting that no RFRA law has ever been used for this purpose before. But the Elane Photography v. Willock case out of New Mexico prompted Indiana to add a provision extending the RFRA provisions to businesses, who can then invoke it as a defense if litigious gay rights advocates (like those in New Mexico and Oregon) seek to bankrupt a Christian-owned business in Indiana.


Community demands respecting your neighbor's sincerely-held religious beliefs, not equating them with the KKK. Do you think gay rights advocates seeking out Christian businesses for litigation is a community-building enterprise? It's more like a witch hunt, and it's only going to further divide this country.

This is exactly what I am talking about. It is obvious that you blame the LGBT community for the division (when I would argue that the other way). You want the LGBT to respect their neighbors sincerely held religious beliefs yet you don't seem to get that the Religious Conservatives in this country are not respecting the LGBT community's sincerely held belief that they should be treated the same and as equals.

I originally hoped that we could spend time talking in this thread about possible solutions for this issue but the more I read the posts of people who are on the opposite side the more I believe that there isn't a solution that will satisfy most people.

I had more to say but I stayed home again with my sick daughter so I will cut this short. Sorry if it comes off as terse.
 
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Cackalacky

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I took a leap on the ole "jump to conclusions mat", my apologies. I thought you said you hadn't read any of the posts, then what you wrote seemed to further support that notion.

Freedom of religion is: The First Amendment prohibits the federal government from making a law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". The 'respecting an establishment of religion' is what I presume you are pseudo-quoting in your "freedom from religion" post.

It appears this freedom from religion is intended to prevent a state-sanctioned religion, which this new law does not do. Nor does it coerce others to join a religion or religious group. Nor is it specific to Christians. Nor does it prevent the LGBT community from receiving service in the state of Indiana.

On the other hand, it has been proven that most people believe a business owner loses their right to the first amendment if they want to conduct business in the public market while simultaneously honoring their conscience. This bill was meant to prevent that from happening should litigation ensue.
The first amendment in interpretation, which has been proven again again, particularly in Religous freedom cases, that the government CANNOT favor one religion over another or a lack of religion. Which means you are agree to practice your religion in so far as it does not impact the rights of another regardless of the others beliefs. That is simultaneous freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I have posted several times that the classic case is deceived by Maurice Bessinger, doing his Christian duty by refusing to serve blacks in his restaurant because of his religous freedom. His case made it to the SCOTUS and was deemed patently frivolous and without merit. This legislation is different in That it does add for profit entities to the protected entires but not actual human beings and consumers of said for profit entities.

Further, like I said, this really isn't a discrimination law but has the intended consequences of discriminating on the basis of religion. This like the states rights to have slavery issue. Instead now it is my religious freedom to discriminate. i would think that is unappealing to most Christians. The fervor with which it is being defended along with pro business interests is disheartening on many levels.

If you want to be bigot in the free market I think you should be able to in so far as it is not sanctioned by government. You will quickly find, much like Maurice did, that it is an untenable business model.
 
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Veritate Duce Progredi

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The first amendment in interpretation, which has been proven again again, particularly in Religous freedom cases, that the government CANNOT favor one religion over another or a lack of religion. Which means you are agree to practice your religion in so far as it does not impact the rights of another regardless of the others beliefs. That is simultaneous freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I have posted several times that the classic case is deceived by Maurice Bessinger, doing his Christian duty by refusing to serve blacks in his restaurant because of his religous freedom. His case made it to the SCOTUS and was deemed patently frivolous and without merit. This legislation is different in That it does add for profit entities to the protected entires but not actual human beings and consumers of said for profit entities.

Further, like I said, this really isn't a discriminations a but has the intended consequences of discriminating on the basis of religion. This like the states rights to have slavery issue. Instead now it is my religious freedom to discriminate. i would think that is unappealing to most Christians. The fervor with which it is being defended along with pro bus Jess int refs is disheartening on many levels.

If you want to be bigot in the free market I think you should be able to in so far as it is not sanctioned by government. You will quickly find, much like Maurice did, that it is an untenable business model.

This is where I presumed we'd end up all along. Do you believe what I wrote was bigoted? Do you believe if I were a photographer who turned away homosexual unions, that I'd be bigoted?
 

Whiskeyjack

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And here's a different letter from other law professors (including some from ND, Harvard and UVA) taking the opposite stance.

Here's an article from in Bloomberg View from Ramesh Ponnuru titled "Tim Cook Needs to Do His Homework":

Tim Cook, the chief executive officer of Apple, is spreading misinformation about a new religious-freedom law in Indiana.

That law and similar ones, he writes in the Washington Post, "say individuals can cite their personal religious beliefs to refuse service to a customer or resist a state nondiscrimination law." He goes on to claim that they "rationalize injustice by pretending to defend something many of us hold dear. They go against the very principles our nation was founded on, and they have the potential to undo decades of progress toward greater equality."

Discrimination against gay customers or employees is what opponents of the law are especially concerned about. But that's a strange argument to make in the context of Indiana, which lacks any state nondiscrimination law on sexual orientation for people to resist. Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is legal almost everywhere in the state, and was before this religious-freedom law passed.

Cook may not be aware of this point or others that cut against his argument because reporting on this controversy has been abysmal. Cook may also be unaware that the "wave of legislation" that he fears has largely already happened. A very similar religious-freedom law has been on the federal books for 22 years, and that law itself codified a Supreme Court doctrine that had been in place for most of the previous few decades. Nineteen states besides Indiana have similar laws. The laws don't seem to be abetting a rising tide of discrimination based on sexual orientation, or based on anything else.

What these religious-freedom laws say is that government can require people to violate their religious beliefs only when it is pursuing a compelling interest, and must do so in the least intrusive manner possible. Thus the Supreme Court recently ruled under a federal religious-freedom law that a Muslim prisoner doesn't have to shave his beard. These sorts of accommodations have long had a place in American law, and have typically been advanced to protect Muslims, Hindus, adherents of traditional Native American religions and other minorities.

The Indiana law arguably differs from other such laws in two ways. It explicitly protects corporate "persons" in their exercise of religious freedom and it applies to legal cases in which the government is not a party. Other religious-freedom laws haven't spelled out these points but have sometimes been read to include them. Under the Indiana law, then, an individual filing a discrimination case against a company could run up against a company's claim that it had a religious duty to discriminate.

In theory, the application of the religious-freedom defense to litigation by private parties makes sense: The point of the religious-freedom protection is to keep government policy from imposing unnecessary burdens on religious practice, and so it shouldn't matter if it's an individual who is trying to get the policy applied.

But it's important to remember that these religious-freedom laws only create a legal claim for people who object to the application of a law. They don't guarantee that those claims will prevail -- and, in practice, such claims haven't fared well in court.

Douglas Laycock, a law professor at the University of Virginia and one of the country's foremost experts on religious freedom, says that he hopes these laws "affect discrimination claims in certain very narrow contexts: very small businesses providing wedding services or marital counseling services. But I am not optimistic."

So far, he says, religious claimants -- including a wedding photographer in New Mexico and a florist in Washington -- "have lost all of those cases."

I don't believe people who make wedding cakes should be forced by law to cater same-sex weddings if they object. People of good will can differ on that point. What we are discussing, though, is a law that theoretically lets those objectors have a day in court (in one of the few Indiana jurisdictions where the law regulates this choice in the first place). And that's just not the same as bringing back whites-only water fountains, to take one of Cook's outlandish examples.

Cook argues that religious-freedom laws “truly will hurt jobs, growth and the economic vibrancy” of places that adopt them. Because he ignores the previous laws, he offers no evidence to substantiate these claims. What might hurt the economies of these states, though, are boycotts driven by false impressions of the sort Cook is creating.

"Opposing discrimination takes courage," writes Cook. So it can. What he's doing, though, takes no courage at all.

Here's the NYT's David Brooks on the issue:

Over the past few decades the United States has engaged in a great struggle to balance civil rights and religious liberty.

On the one hand, there is a growing consensus that straight, gay and lesbian people deserve full equality with each other. We are to be judged by how we love, not by whom we love. If denying gays and lesbians their full civil rights and dignity is not wrong, then nothing is wrong. Gays and lesbians should not only be permitted to marry and live as they want, but be honored for doing so.

On the other hand, this was a nation founded on religious tolerance. The ways of the Lord are mysterious and are understood differently by different traditions. At their best, Americans have always believed that people should have the widest possible latitude to exercise their faith as they see fit or not exercise any faith. While there are many bigots, there are also many wise and deeply humane people whose most deeply held religious beliefs contain heterosexual definitions of marriage. These people are worthy of tolerance, respect and gentle persuasion.

At its best, the gay rights movement has promoted its cause while carefully respecting religious liberty and the traditional pillars of American society. The cause has focused on marriage and military service. It has not staged a frontal assault on the exercise of faith.

The 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which was supported by Senator Ted Kennedy and a wide posse of progressives, sidestepped the abstract and polarizing theological argument. It focused on the concrete facts of specific cases. The act basically holds that government sometimes has to infringe on religious freedom in order to pursue equality and other goods, but, when it does, it should have a compelling reason and should infringe in the least intrusive way possible.

This moderate, grounded, incremental strategy has produced amazing results. Fewer people have to face the horror of bigotry, isolation, marginalization and prejudice.

Yet I wonder if this phenomenal achievement is going off the rails. Indiana has passed a state law like the 1993 federal act, and sparked an incredible firestorm.

If the opponents of that law were arguing that the Indiana statute tightens the federal standards a notch too far, that would be compelling. But that’s not the argument the opponents are making.

Instead, the argument seems to be that the federal act’s concrete case-by-case approach is wrong. The opponents seem to be saying there is no valid tension between religious pluralism and equality. Claims of religious liberty are covers for anti-gay bigotry.

This deviation seems unwise both as a matter of pragmatics and as a matter of principle. In the first place, if there is no attempt to balance religious liberty and civil rights, the cause of gay rights will be associated with coercion, not liberation. Some people have lost their jobs for expressing opposition to gay marriage. There are too many stories like the Oregon bakery that may have to pay a $150,000 fine because it preferred not to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex ceremony. A movement that stands for tolerance does not want to be on the side of a government that compels a photographer who is an evangelical Christian to shoot a same-sex wedding that he would rather avoid.

Furthermore, the evangelical movement is evolving. Many young evangelicals understand that their faith should not be defined by this issue. If orthodox Christians are suddenly written out of polite society as modern-day Bull Connors, this would only halt progress, polarize the debate and lead to a bloody war of all against all.

As a matter of principle, it is simply the case that religious liberty is a value deserving our deepest respect, even in cases where it leads to disagreements as fundamental as the definition of marriage.

Morality is a politeness of the soul. Deep politeness means we make accommodations. Certain basic truths are inalienable. Discrimination is always wrong. In cases of actual bigotry, the hammer comes down. But as neighbors in a pluralistic society we try to turn philosophic clashes (about right and wrong) into neighborly problems in which different people are given space to have different lanes to lead lives. In cases where people with different values disagree, we seek a creative accommodation.

In the Jewish community, conservative Jews are generally polite toward Orthodox Jews who wouldn’t use their cutlery. Men are generally polite to Orthodox women who would prefer not to shake their hands. In the larger community, this respectful politeness works best.

The movement to champion gay rights is now in a position where it can afford to offer this respect, at a point where steady pressure works better than compulsion.

It’s always easier to take an absolutist position. But, in a clash of values like the one between religious pluralism and equality, that absolutism is neither pragmatic, virtuous nor true.

Here's The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty on "The insane national freakout over Indiana's religious freedom law":

The moral panic that a fundamentalist Christian armed with a packet of instant yeast and a stand mixer can inspire is something to behold.

I am speaking, of course, about the national freak-out that has greeted the passage of Indiana's version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), which is based on legislation signed nearly unanimously by a Clinton-era Congress. The law applies a "balancing test" in judicial proceedings, where states have to prove a compelling state interest before burdening the practice of a religious belief, and it comes in response to concerns that religious business owners, like bakers and florists and the like, will be forced to participate in same-sex marriages.

The overreaction reached a sanctimonious crescendo when Apple CEO Tim Cook explained in The Washington Post that such laws are "not about religion." They are also allegedly bad for business. That the guy who made his career manipulating supply chains in China objects to small-time proprietors exercising their religious liberty rights is amusing. I suppose he prefers making money where governments stringently regulate religious belief.

Apple uses the same discretion Cook would deny others, such as as when it removed a program from its store that articulated a traditional Christian view of marriage. Apple has every right to reject apps it finds unconscionable or distasteful. If only Cook was civil enough to extend others the same courtesy.

There's little historical evidence to suggest that Indiana's RFRA could be used in a general way to deny service to customers who are gay. RFRA statutes in other states have never successfully defended a proprietor from an anti-discrimination suit. All the speculation about the minor differences in Indiana's statute that allegedly make it a historical violation of civil rights is just that: speculation. It would be helpful if opponents of Indiana's RFRA compiled a list of the enormities that occur because of this law in the next five years. My bet is that there will be zero.

On the other side, it is rather easy to compile instances in which the RFRA produced laudable outcomes. There's the example of Kawal Tagore, a Sikh who was fired from the IRS for carrying a small knife that is the religious duty of all Sikhs to carry. She won recompense for her unlawful firing, thanks to the RFRA. Then there's Abdul Muhammad, a prisoner in Arkansas who won the right to grow a beard while in prison, in accordance with his religious duties.

And even if RFRA offered no protection to the traditionalist Christian baker and wedding photographer, the law of the land and our culture should. There is something truly paradoxical about the progressive desire to vindicate secularism by compelling objectors to participate in another person's marriage solemnities. That's the sort of thing the Puritans of Massachusetts Bay did.

Religious liberty — including the liberty not to participate in another's private ceremonies — is a liberal value. And liberty of conscience should be protected for all small proprietors, even those who are not religious, or even anti-religious. If a Catholic priest walked into his local print shop and asked the liberal owner to print pamphlets on the sinfulness of artificial birth control, she should be free to decline the job. To label her an anti-Catholic bigot, and to invoke the power of the state to destroy her business, reputation, and livelihood, would be monstrously cruel.

There is a difference between serving a customer and participating in an event that is fundamentally at odds with your religious beliefs. Take the case of Sweet Cakes of Oregon, which sold cupcakes to LGBT customers, but chose not to cater at a same-sex wedding.

For consistency's sake, the #BoycottIndiana activists who have discovered such passionate distaste for RFRA laws should own the totality of their views. They should work to repeal the laws across 19 states and the federal government. They should demand that the verdicts rendered under it are overturned. Kawal Tagore should be forced to surrender her religious artifacts. #BoycottIndiana should travel to Arkansas and protest at the prison where Abdul Muhammad is held. Tim Cook should offer to shave Muhammad's beard.

Or maybe we could find a way to step back from where the culture war is leading us. Maybe these dissenting wedding vendor cases are rather rare. Maybe they are not an imminent threat to anyone's wedding in particular, or to the nation at large. Maybe not every difference between client and proprietor has to be a prelude to intra-state economic sanction. And maybe, just maybe, America can try to practice real pluralism.
 

pkt77242

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This is where I presumed we'd end up all along. Do you believe what I wrote was bigoted? Do you believe if I were a photographer who turned away homosexual unions, that I'd be bigoted?

Bigot - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)

Before people try to answer that question I think that it would be a good idea to post the definition of the word bigot.

Edit: I think it is kind of bad form to ask someone if they think you are a bigot or not. Does it really help move the conversation forward? Or will it possibly lead to personal attacks?
 
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pkt77242

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And here's a different letter from other law professors (including some from ND, Harvard and UVA) taking the opposite stance.

Here's an article from in Bloomberg View from Ramesh Ponnuru titled "Tim Cook Needs to Do His Homework":



Here's the NYT's David Brooks on the issue:



Here's The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty on "The insane national freakout over Indiana's religious freedom law":

I would add two things to this, first that the claims haven't done well in court because businesses haven't been covered under 18 of the 19 stats laws (and not under the federal one), so wouldn't it make sense that the businesses would not have done well in the court system? Didn't you say yesterday that the business part was added in response to the New Mexico case, so that businesses would be protected? Obviously we won't know how it will play out in court until it gets tested but that was the point of adding that part, wasn't it?

Second, the piece by David Brooks NYT, is a little rough, he talks about tolerance such as men not shaking an Orthodox women's hand as being respectful, but that is a far cry from not serving someone.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Not about revenge, that is where you are wrong, it is about equal rights for the gay community.

Yes, it is. Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon happily sold cupcakes to its gay patrons for years. But the Christian owners declined to cater a gay wedding once, and suddenly they're Very Bad People who need to be punished by the state. The gay couple could have easily found a large number of alternative bakeries to serve them (this was in Oregon, after all), but instead they chose to make an example of the Christian bakers. Whose rights have been violated there? The gay couple who could have easily found another bakery, or the owners of Sweet Cakes by Melissa whose livelihood has been destroyed?

This is exactly what I am talking about. It is obvious that you blame the LGBT community for the division (when I would argue that the other way). You want the LGBT to respect their neighbors sincerely held religious beliefs yet you don't seem to get that the Religious Conservatives in this country are not respecting the LGBT community's sincerely held belief that they should be treated the same and as equals.

This is an hysterical over-reaction by gay rights advocates. Where are the "No Gays Allowed" signs? No RFRA law has ever successfully defended a proprietor against a discrimination claim. Yet if conservative Christians are all evil homophobes, why haven't they used these laws to such devious ends over the last 22 years?

There is a real threat to religious freedom in this country-- as evidenced by the lawsuits, high-profile firings, and Progressive plans to "Bob Jones" religious institutions who profess a traditional definition of marriage-- which this Indiana law is meant to address. And it's being contrasted against a completely contrived conspiracy by conservative Christians to oppress the LGBT community. Even Glenn Beck would be embarrassed by the specious historical analogies.

I originally hoped that we could spend time talking in this thread about possible solutions for this issue but the more I read the posts of people who are on the opposite side the more I believe that there isn't a solution that will satisfy most people.

There are lots of possible solutions. I have no desire to see competent and respectful gay employees fired arbitrarily, and the vast majority of orthodox Christians don't either. But those on the other side of the debate believe those arguing for religious freedom are simply bigots hiding behind an antiquated legal doctrine, and thus see no reason to compromise.
 
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