Politics

[phgreek]

It isn't shocking that they would spy on us but if they were communicating that information to our Congress, that is a completely different can of worms. If you think that is OK, then I don't know what to tell you.

not sure if serious...

Assume so...SMH

So the sin is someone telling US about OUR negotiations...

I have no words...just read what you wrote like 50 times until the fuckedupedness jumps off the page.

I sense a little incredulous tone in your "It isn't shocking that they would spy on us" ...so ..how the hell do you think we knew they were spying on us??

we were:

A) Lucky
B) told by our friends the Iranians
C) spying on them, as they were spying on us

 

[phgreek]

Dougherty is a libertarian-leaning traditionalist Catholic. Neither he nor I can stand Cruz. The man embodies everything that's wrong with the GOP: elitism, cronyism, insincere moralizing, etc. And he's not trolling the Left, because he's speaking to the Republican base. That's demagoguery.



Everyone spies. But for a supposed ally to not only spy but then feed that intelligence to our hyper-partisan Congress in a naked effort to undermine American diplomacy? That's crossing a line into outright subversion of American foreign policy.

Yea, demagoguery is better...it has the effect of trolling for me...

totally disagree...

If you think that what was told to congress was likely news to congress you don't get the problem.

Edit:Sorry...was running to get kids, above sounds worse than intended. I get the frustration with the Israeli medling. I was less than tickled to hear we had operatives trying to tip Israel's election...but I think the bigger issue is, How do multiple letters come out of congress (democrats were there too) ...like I asked before what were they told that has them so wound up, and the key question...how is it possible that someone in congress does not know at least in general terms what is on the table here?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

While there is part of me that agrees with that last part, another part of me says "I am supposed to be upset at Isreal because they told the US Congress about what was going on in diplomatic talks between the US and Iran...shouldn't Congress have an idea about what is being discussed between the US and Iran from our executive branch?" Also, considering that we are hearing of instances of US trying to influence the outcome of Isreal's election, at what point am I supposed to be outraged anymore and against whom exactly?

The major takeaway here isn't that the "bad" Israelis are undermining the "good" Americans. It's that the interests of America and Israel clearly diverge on many important issues, chief of all being Iran. Yet many American politicians insist that (at least publicly) there should be no daylight between the two nations; which is patently absurd, and not good for either country.

Yea, demagoguery is better...it has the effect of trolling for me...

totally disagree...

Totally disagree with what? That Cruz is a demagogue?

If you think that what was told to congress was likely news to congress you don't get the problem.

What's the problem then? I see a small client state (2.5% of our population; 1.6% of our GDP) actively and openly undermining American foreign policy. If the Israelis believe doing so is in their national interest, then so be it. But they shouldn't be able to do such things and remain an American ally.

Though a large bloc of AIPAC-owned Congressmen, war-mongering neocons, and dispensationalist evangelicals see no apparent contradiction in this arrangement.

Edit:Sorry...was running to get kids, above sounds worse than intended. I get the frustration with the Israeli medling. I was less than tickled to hear we had operatives trying to tip Israel's election...but I think the bigger issue is, How do multiple letters come out of congress (democrats were there too) ...like I asked before what were they told that has them so wound up, and the key question...how is it possible that someone in congress does not know at least in general terms what is on the table here?

It's virtually certain that many Congressmen are well-informed about the status of the negotiations. But it's very common for these things to remain secret while they're being negotiated; just as legislators don't negotiate the specifics of important bills during open floor debates on CSPAN. Negotiations involve compromise, which doesn't play well in a hyper-partisan environment. Israel is looking to sabotage the negotiations by whipping our corrupt Congressmen into a partisan frenzy over this issue. The fact that they're spying on us and using that intel to openly meddle in our internal politics is frankly incredible, especially by a supposed ally. Were any other country to try something like this, we'd call it an act of war.

 

[Woneone]

While there is part of me that agrees with that last part, another part of me says "I am supposed to be upset at Isreal because they told the US Congress about what was going on in diplomatic talks between the US and Iran...shouldn't Congress have an idea about what is being discussed between the US and Iran from our executive branch?" Also, considering that we are hearing of instances of US trying to influence the outcome of Isreal's election, at what point am I supposed to be outraged anymore and against whom exactly?

Not to mention meeting with Netanyahu’s political adversaries and allegedly sending funds to opposing candidate groups.

We have no leg to stand on with regards to spying on allies. None. Zero.

Everyone spies. But for a supposed ally to not only spy but then feed that intelligence to our hyper-partisan Congress in a naked effort to undermine American diplomacy? That's crossing a line into outright subversion of American foreign policy.

American foreign policy was potentially subverted because information of discussions between us and Iran were sent to Congress.

I stopped re-reading that sentence when my nose started to bleed. The sheer "duh" of it, and what it signifies, is astounding. That says a lot about us, and very little about Israel.

EDIT: Not to mention, from other reports, the "information" if there was any, was not gathered via spying on us. Rather, from spying on Iranian leaders as well as reports from other countries. Apparently, the French are much more open to sharing information with Israel than we are. It sounds as though all of this information was already available to anyone who wanted to make a phone call.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Not to mention meeting with Netanyahu’s political adversaries and allegedly sending funds to opposing candidate groups.

We have no leg to stand on with regards to spying on allies. None. Zero.

This isn't about claiming the moral high ground. It's about acknowledging that American interests have diverged significantly from Israel's, and that we need to stop pretending otherwise.

I stopped re-reading that sentence when my nose started to bleed. The sheer "duh" of it, and what it signifies, is astounding. That says a lot about us, and very little about Israel.

It does reveal how dysfunctional our Federal government has become. But you can't wave this away by pointing out that we aggressively spy on our allies and occasionally meddle in their internal politics (which is regrettable, and should be stopped). We're the global hegemon; the imperial force that undergirds the entire system. We have strict laws against foreign agents influencing our electoral processes. Violating such laws can be considered an act of treason. So it's a big f*cking deal when: (1) a supposed American ally; (2) spies on a sensitive and confidential negotiation intended to avoid war; and (3) uses that intel to undermine such negotiations by brazenly meddling in our internal politics.

 

[pkt77242]

not sure if serious...

Assume so...SMH

So the sin is someone telling US about OUR negotiations...

I have no words...just read what you wrote like 50 times until the fuckedupedness jumps off the page.

I sense a little incredulous tone in your "It isn't shocking that they would spy on us" ...so ..how the hell do you think we knew they were spying on us??

we were:

A) Lucky
B) told by our friends the Iranians
C) spying on them, as they were spying on us

Spying is ok. No one is upset that they were spying on us (including the White House). Also, of course we were spying on them, just as they were spying on us. Again it is ok and an accepted practice.

Lets get to the rest. First off the Executive branch does not have to report anything to Congress about the negotiations, having said that they were. The White House has been updating members of Congress on the negotiations. The problem here is that Israel tried to sway our Congressmen, and if you can not understand why that is a bad thing, then there is no point in this conversation. If you can then the next point is that the Israel's were selling a point of view not just facts. They were selling this deal is bad because ..... Not here is the information and make up your own mind. Research shows that the way in which the information is presented can significantly sway the recipient. They want what is best for Israel, not necessarily what is best for the US.

So the point becomes do you feel that is is acceptable that another country is trying to sway our congressmen in secret to "control" our policy?

I think that if the US was involved in the trying to mess with the Israel elections (which it looks like we were) then it is a stupid and childish thing to have done, and in my opinion something needs to be done about it. Though I would like to know what exactly the US did before deciding on the appropriate response.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Does anyone have an idea what specifically the Israelis won't like about detente with Iran? I'm not being naive (obviously Israel and Iran hate each other), but we don't hear about the Saudis doing everything they can to stop it.

I know Israel would love for the US to spend its men and money on eliminating Iran, but if they (Israel) can make a lasting peace with Egypt and coexist with Saudi Arabia, why can't a deal with Iran benefit them too?

 

[Cackalacky]

Does anyone have an idea what specifically the Israelis won't like about detente with Iran? I'm not being naive (obviously Israel and Iran hate each other), but we don't hear about the Saudis doing everything they can to stop it.

I know Israel would love for the US to spend its men and money on eliminating Iran, but if they (Israel) can make a lasting peace with Egypt and coexist with Saudi Arabia, why can't a deal with Iran benefit them too?

I'm of the mind that Israel is as much a war mongerer as the US is. Obviously the continuous threat (perceived and real) contributes but they have also existed in a defacto state of war much like the US. And rightwingers love wars. I don't think that the U.S. and Israel will ever stop fighting others. Trying to make peace is viewed as weakness. It's much better to beat your adversaries and make a whole bunch of money at the same time. Meanwhile Saudis Arabia loves all that fuel required to mobilize military equipment. They just sit back and let everyone burn while they take in the caysh

My cynicism knows no bounds.

 

[Wild Bill]

I'm of the mind that Israel is as much a war mongerer as the US is. Obviously the continuous threat (perceived and real) contributes but they have also existed in a defacto state of war much like the US. And rightwingers love wars. I don't think that the U.S. and Israel will ever stop fighting others. Trying to make peace is viewed as weakness. It's much better to beat your adversaries and make a whole bunch of money at the same time. Meanwhile Saudis Arabia loves all that fuel required to mobilize military equipment. They just sit back and let everyone burn while they take in the caysh

My cynicism knows no bounds.

Just the rightwingers, huh?

Clinton was a peaceful man. Just ask the Serbs.

 

[Grahambo]

Does anyone have an idea what specifically the Israelis won't like about detente with Iran? I'm not being naive (obviously Israel and Iran hate each other), but we don't hear about the Saudis doing everything they can to stop it.

I know Israel would love for the US to spend its men and money on eliminating Iran, but if they (Israel) can make a lasting peace with Egypt and coexist with Saudi Arabia, why can't a deal with Iran benefit them too?

Iran is taking over the entire region..among other things.

That's just the quick version of it. More convoluted but thats a big issue.

 

[Cackalacky]

Just the rightwingers, huh?

Clinton was a peaceful man. Just ask the Serbs.

Or what about Obama and his drone program? Yes. Right wingers love wars. Much more so than liberals. Real liberals. Like Social democratic states. The fact that the U.S. has two parties that fully support war or war activities under most circumstances doesn't make them any less right wing regarding war and war war profiteering.

This is especially the case for any politcal group who takes a predominantly hard line stance on military altercations and irrespective of the necessity.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Does anyone have an idea what specifically the Israelis won't like about detente with Iran? I'm not being naive (obviously Israel and Iran hate each other), but we don't hear about the Saudis doing everything they can to stop it.

Saudia Arabia does lobby aggressively for an invasion of Iran, but it's all done behind the scenes through normal diplomatic channels. They don't enjoy Israel's political capital, so they can't openly buy American Congressmen or meddle so brazenly in our politics.

I know Israel would love for the US to spend its men and money on eliminating Iran, but if they (Israel) can make a lasting peace with Egypt and coexist with Saudi Arabia, why can't a deal with Iran benefit them too?

They could easily settle into a peaceful balance of powers between an Iran-dominated Shia faction an Israeli/ Sunni faction. The problem is that the former sees no reason to settle for such an arrangement when the US is so easily manipulated into crushing their enemies. They'd much rather we spend another trillion dollars and thousands more American lives defanging Iran so they can lord over the region without any rivals.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Just the rightwingers, huh?

Clinton was a peaceful man. Just ask the Serbs.

Wait until you get a load of his wife. It kills me that the Democrats are about to nominate a woman who's more hawkish than most of the GOP.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Wait until you get a load of his wife. It kills me that the Democrats are about to nominate a woman who's more hawkish than most of the GOP.

I just bought Hitchen's Clinton book off Amazon two days ago. I figured I should get acquainted with his opinion of them as her campaign takes off. I was too young and too conservative in 2008 to know anything about her.

I'm hoping Jim Webb gets in the race and takes the Dem nomination, considering it's unlikely Warren has that ability.

 

[Wild Bill]

Or what about Obama and his drone program? Yes. Right wingers love wars. Much more so than liberals. Real liberals. Like Social democratic states. The fact that the U.S. has two parties that fully support war or war activities under most circumstances doesn't make them any less right wing regarding war and war war profiteering.

This is especially the case for any politcal group who takes a predominantly hard line stance on military altercations and irrespective of the necessity.

Real conservatives do not support wasteful wars.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Real conservatives do not support wasteful wars.

No True Scotsman?

The Neo-cons were the ones who, after the Gulf War showed that overwhelming air power, stealth, and lightning quick armor could demolish any foe on the planet with ease, conjured up the plan to recreate the Middle East in accordance with interests. If John Mearsheimer is to be believed, when the Iraq War was being devised the Israelis were adamant that we should take out Iran instead and our response was along the lines of "We will, after we take care of Saddam..."

Conservatives can't just disown Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, etc after their failures become apparent.

 

[connor_in]

I'm of the mind that Israel is as much a war mongerer as the US is. Obviously the continuous threat (perceived and real) contributes but they have also existed in a defacto state of war much like the US. And rightwingers love wars. I don't think that the U.S. and Israel will ever stop fighting others. Trying to make peace is viewed as weakness. It's much better to beat your adversaries and make a whole bunch of money at the same time. Meanwhile Saudis Arabia loves all that fuel required to mobilize military equipment. They just sit back and let everyone burn while they take in the caysh

My cynicism knows no bounds.

Really?

I like you Cack when not talking politics

How absurd should I and others get about left-wingers?

 

[GoIrish41]

I just bought Hitchen's Clinton book off Amazon two days ago. I figured I should get acquainted with his opinion of them as her campaign takes off. I was too young and too conservative in 2008 to know anything about her.

I'm hoping Jim Webb gets in the race and takes the Dem nomination, considering it's unlikely Warren has that ability.

I like Jim Webb a lot but I think Warren is the more likely of the two to be able to be a real contender.

 

[Cackalacky]

Really?

I like you Cack when not talking politics

How absurd should I and others get about left-wingers?

What's absurd about anything I wrote? A perpetual state of war is a right wingers wet dream.

 

[GoIrish41]

Really?

I like you Cack when not talking politics

How absurd should I and others get about left-wingers?

Go nuts. I want to see how absurd you can get. Just remember you have a lot of creative chaps on here who will push it further than anything that resembles reasonable. So you will have to bring your A game or you want to get noticed in the crowd.

 

[Cackalacky]

Real conservatives do not support wasteful wars.

I specifically and intentionally refrained from using the moniker "conservative" as I don't see the two as synonymous.

 

[Grahambo]

Wait until you get a load of his wife. It kills me that the Democrats are about to nominate a woman who's more hawkish than most of the GOP.

Just wait until the real truth comes out...good grief.

 

[phgreek]

Spying is ok. No one is upset that they were spying on us (including the White House). Also, of course we were spying on them, just as they were spying on us. Again it is ok and an accepted practice.

Lets get to the rest. First off the Executive branch does not have to report anything to Congress about the negotiations, having said that they were. The White House has been updating members of Congress on the negotiations. The problem here is that Israel tried to sway our Congressmen, and if you can not understand why that is a bad thing, then there is no point in this conversation. If you can then the next point is that the Israel's were selling a point of view not just facts. They were selling this deal is bad because ..... Not here is the information and make up your own mind. Research shows that the way in which the information is presented can significantly sway the recipient. They want what is best for Israel, not necessarily what is best for the US.

So the point becomes do you feel that is is acceptable that another country is trying to sway our congressmen in secret to "control" our policy?

I think that if the US was involved in the trying to mess with the Israel elections (which it looks like we were) then it is a stupid and childish thing to have done, and in my opinion something needs to be done about it. Though I would like to know what exactly the US did before deciding on the appropriate response.

And what the president shares should square with what is going on. It isn't ok to say you share out of the goodness of your heart, and lie or mislead. Thats called manipulation...and eerily similar to methods employed during the ACA "deal".

I think we can all agree Israel passed on some information, and congress reacted...BOTH parties. I am less likely to believe the response was due to an Israeli sales job, and more inclined to believe there was something in the content of what was told congress that significantly contradicted what congress was being told by whitehouse/state briefers.

Given the defensive narrative from the whitehouse/state has generally been "talks are in flux"..blah, blah blah. Why would you say that if you weren't trying to reconcile a significant DIFFERENCE.

And to me THAT is a FAR bigger problem than Israel's motives...

 

[Cackalacky]

With the USs history of meddling in the executive branch of many countries ( by meddling I mean installing US friendly puppets) it's not surprising Obama is meddling in Israel. What's vastly more surprising is the Republicans actions with Netanyahu to undermine what numerous other countries have been working on for years. I believe getting Iran to give up the bomb for a verifiable nuclear program is much more beneficial to us than having them rogue with no oversight. At least until they show they will play ball or not. The actions perpetrated by the neocons in both the US and Israel significantly bolster the hardline element in Iran into not making a deal. That makes us much less safe.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Just wait until the real truth comes out...good grief.

More of this gold I hope? No..yeahno...yeahno

 

[phgreek]

The major takeaway here isn't that the "bad" Israelis are undermining the "good" Americans. It's that the interests of America and Israel clearly diverge on many important issues, chief of all being Iran. Yet many American politicians insist that (at least publicly) there should be no daylight between the two nations; which is patently absurd, and not good for either country.



Totally disagree with what? That Cruz is a demagogue?
agreed with that..disagreed with second part of your post...did it all clumsily as I was headed out...should have refrained



What's the problem then? I see a small client state (2.5% of our population; 1.6% of our GDP) actively and openly undermining American foreign policy. If the Israelis believe doing so is in their national interest, then so be it. But they shouldn't be able to do such things and remain an American ally.

In my estimation the problem is what members of congress were told by the whitehouse and state does not align with the intel delivered by Israel. I don't think people get their underware in a bunch over non-substantive differences...both parties, and both houses weighed in now, so something of a delta has come up. Given the defense from the whitehouse and state "things are fluid, in flux" that only tells me there IS something substantively different. That to me is a huge problem reminiscent of manipulation surrounding the ACA...even the concept of just getting something rammed through and make THEM repeal it is ringing in my ears with this Iran deal.


Though a large bloc of AIPAC-owned Congressmen, war-mongering neocons, and dispensationalist evangelicals see no apparent contradiction in this arrangement.



It's virtually certain that many Congressmen are well-informed about the status of the negotiations. But it's very common for these things to remain secret while they're being negotiated; just as legislators don't negotiate the specifics of important bills during open floor debates on CSPAN. Negotiations involve compromise, which doesn't play well in a hyper-partisan environment. Israel is looking to sabotage the negotiations by whipping our corrupt Congressmen into a partisan frenzy over this issue. The fact that they're spying on us and using that intel to openly meddle in our internal politics is frankly incredible, especially by a supposed ally. Were any other country to try something like this, we'd call it an act of war.

If anyone knows "making the sausage" isn't pretty I'd guess it'd be congress. The fact that Democrats and Republicans are concerned, and cosigned letters...in this hyper-partisan environment...makes me think something way out of line was on the table...Congress knows once something is in place, it takes alot of political capitol to reverse it...probably much more so on the international scene. I believe, at this point, congress is indeed making a pre-emptive whack at something...in time we'll know what that something is/was...

 

[phgreek]

With the USs history of meddling in the executive branch of many countries ( by meddling I mean installing US friendly puppets) it's not surprising Obama is meddling in Israel. What's vastly more surprising is the Republicans actions with Netanyahu to undermine what numerous other countries have been working on for years. I believe getting Iran to give up the bomb for a verifiable nuclear program is much more beneficial to us than having them rogue with no oversight. At least until they show they will play ball or not. The actions perpetrated by the neocons in both the US and Israel significantly bolster the hardline element in Iran into not making a deal. That makes us much less safe.

false choice...

I don't believe anything verifiable given the questions Iran will not answer or allow inspection of...

 

[Cackalacky]

false choice...

I don't believe anything verifiable given the questions Iran will not answer or allow inspection of...

It's not a false choice. Either they fully allow massive oversight which is being negotiated or there is no deal. No sitting president is going to do otherwise with Iran and our ties to Israel.

 

[Cackalacky]

Why does Netanyahu want to sabotage the Iran nuclear deal? - Al Jazeera English
Good article.

 

[Cackalacky]

Go nuts. I want to see how absurd you can get. Just remember you have a lot of creative chaps on here who will push it further than anything that resembles reasonable. So you will have to bring your A game or you want to get noticed in the crowd.

Polish Leppy has a PhD in partisan mudslinging.

jk lol