Politics

Politics

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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
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NDgradstudent

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On a slightly different topic, the Supreme Court today vacated the 7th Circuit's judgment against ND's challenge to the HHS mandate. It remanded the case back to the 7th Circuit in light of the Hobby Lobby decision.

As some of you might recall, during oral argument in the case Judge Posner asked ND's lawyer (Matt Kairis, also an ND alum) a series of bizarre questions (such as about the difference between mortal and venial sins) and then got cross when Kairis pointed out to him that this was not *at all* relevant to the case. The 7th Circuit eventually denied ND a preliminary injunction under RFRA by a 2-1 vote. Hopefully the 7th Circuit will get the message and grant ND an exemption under RFRA. If not, it seems likely the Supreme Court will grant ND the exemption.

The order is here:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/030915zor_3e04.pdf

Case history is here:
University of Notre Dame v. Burwell : SCOTUSblog
 

IrishJayhawk

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My wife teaches HS English. She taught in OH for 11 years and has taught in SC for three. While in OH she consistently had 90+% passing ratings for standardized testing. Her first year teaching in SC she had 56%, worked a lot harder, and had a lot more stress(and 12% less pay).

She is changing careers after this school year. What is going on in public school districts is truly not fair to teachers.

Sadly, this is a common story. Good luck to you and your wife.
 

NDohio

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Sadly, this is a common story. Good luck to you and your wife.

Thanks. She will do great out in the private sector. It is sad though, there are a lot of good teachers leaving the profession.

Kudos to you for sticking with it. Although know one would blame you for leaving the profession under current working conditions..
 

IrishLax

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You should disagree with the bit about Bloom's Taxonomy, which is all about lower vs. higher order thinking skills. I meant Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. I love ironic mistakes. :)

lol I honestly didn't even read the capitalized words as you summarized the premise as "why care about algebra if you're hungry?"

Trust me, that's not the norm. I know 7-8 year veteran teachers in Arizona with Master's Degrees who make about $37,000-38,000, can be fired with no cause, and have dwindling pension protection.

Seriously? That's absurd. I know cost of living is much cheaper out there, but less than $40k is a joke for someone with that kind of qualifications and experience.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Those same teachers and schools are then assessed by how well their kids do on standardized tests. Never mind that those tests don't do a very good job of assessing critical thinking, creativity, and humanity. Those teachers and schools then face an apples to oranges comparison to the charter school down the block that can reject any kid it wants.

Arizona charter schools receive public funds and therefore are not allowed to turn anyone away.
 
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pkt77242

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Arizona charter schools receive public funds and therefore are not allowed to turn anyone away.

While you are 100% correct that by law they can't turn anyone away, they still do. Many charter schools encourage parents of children with disabilities to enroll their child in public schools because they have better and more resources for their child. I have a sister that does physical therapy with developmentally delayed children and one of my sister-in-laws is a special education teacher in AZ and from the stories that I have heard many charter schools do their best to not take special ed students.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Seriously? That's absurd. I know cost of living is much cheaper out there, but less than $40k is a joke for someone with that kind of qualifications and experience.

I just looked it up...

Master's + 7 years of teaching experience in the Tucson Unified School District gets you $39,000. It's much higher in Scottsdale for the same qualifications...$40,194 (as of 2011-2012).

Base salary for a teacher with only a Bachelor's degree doesn't reach $40,000 until the 13th year in Tucson and the 12th year in Scottsdale.

It's certainly worth noting that Arizona is on the low side. But I've seen first hand that many teachers get out or leave the state because they're having trouble making ends meet. I know many other teachers who actually take part time jobs in order to do so.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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While you are 100% correct that by law they can't turn anyone away, they still do. Many charter schools encourage parents of children with disabilities to enroll their child in public schools because they have better and more resources for their child. I have a sister that does physical therapy with developmentally delayed children and one of my sister-in-laws is a special education teacher in AZ and from the stories that I have heard many charter schools do their best to not take special ed students.

That's still a far cry from having the ability to "reject any kid" they deem undesirable, no? And forcing every public educational institution to duplicate the same sorts of special ed programs is a dubious policy in the first place.

I'm very grateful that Arizona is so friendly toward charters. Chandler and Scottsdale excepted, most of our public schools run the gamut from average to terrible. And the local diocesan schools are atrocious as well; for $6k/ year, you get the same utilitarian curriculum the public schools are offering, with a religion course tacked on. No thanks.

I send my kids to a local charter chain called Great Hearts, which offers a classical liberal arts curriculum. It's much closer to a real Catholic education than what the diocese is offering, and it's paid for via my tax dollars.
 
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IrishJayhawk

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That's still a far cry from having the ability to "reject any kid" they deem undesirable, no? And forcing every public educational institution to duplicate the same sorts of special ed programs is a dubious policy in the first place.

I'm very grateful that Arizona is so friendly toward charters. Chandler and Scottsdale excepted, most of our public schools run the gamut from average to terrible. And the local diocesan schools are atrocious as well; for $6k/ year, you get the same utilitarian curriculum the public schools are offering, with a religion course tacked on. No thanks.

I send my kids to a local charter chain called Great Hearts, which offers a classical liberal arts curriculum. It's much closer to a real Catholic education than what the diocese is offering, and it's paid for via my tax dollars.

In my opinion, Arizona public schools are so poor because they have been so drastically defunded. As I said, I've seen loads of good teachers leave the field or the state because the legislature is so hostile to K-12 education. Ducey's budget will just exacerbate that problem.
 

Whiskeyjack

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In my opinion, Arizona public schools are so poor because they have been so drastically defunded. As I said, I've seen loads of good teachers leave the field or the state because the legislature is so hostile to K-12 education. Ducey's budget will just exacerbate that problem.

Not defending Ducey or the proposed budget here. Just thought I'd point out that public education in Arizona isn't all bad. We've been on the cutting edge of school choice for decades, which is why several of the nation's best charter chains are located here.

Then again, I'm skeptical of compulsory public education in general. See this article by ND Professor Patrick Deneen titled "Health, Education -- and Welfare?"

Often discussed in different sections of the newspaper or the blogosphere, the twin crises of health care and higher education are extraordinary in their similarities. Both are regarded as necessary goods for human flourishing whose costs are spiraling out of control. Both rely on a professional class that is becoming more specialized, losing the generalist who once cared for the “whole person.” Both have seen expanding intervention by the central government which has sought to provide access to the lower and middle classes. Both are believed by many conservatives to be properly reformed by means of market-based solutions. Both are the subject of intense contemporary political debate.

And both were once almost exclusively the province of the Church, and, indeed, can trace their institutional origins—hospitals and universities—as part of the Church’s charitable ministry.

This latter fact, it seems to me, sheds bright light on the common roots of the contemporary crisis of each area. The dominant voices in the debate in both areas—health and education—cleave closely to the contemporary party lines. On the Right, the case is made that a competitive market model will solve the ills of both health care and education. By allowing prices to be driven by supply and demand, and the motivations of the primary actors—doctors and professoriate, on the one hand, patients and students, on the other—to be largely self-interested, the market will resolve how best to allocate the relatively limited access to the best health care and the best institutions of higher education. On the Left, it is believed that the State should rest a heavy hand on the scales of the market, enforcing widespread access, suppressing costs (or providing subsidies), and forcing providers to conform to state-mandated expectations and standards.

Yet there is something fundamentally amiss with making provision of health and higher education contingent on market models and profit calculus, as both seem to be goods that are not subject to the same kind of calculus as automobiles and bubble gum. The very idea that doctors and teachers are or ought to act out of the motivations of self-interest, and provide services to their “consumers,” seems fundamentally contradictory to the kind of work and social role performed by each. The decline of the “generalist” in each sphere is indicative of a deeper crisis of the willingness to act on behalf of a broader conception of the good intrinsic to each profession and on behalf of the person being served, in favor of the specialization encouraged by modern canons of efficiency, productivity, profit, and rationalization.

At the same time, the State is rightly suspected of being unable to fundamentally improve or even maintain the quality of either sphere. It is doubtless the case that it can assure access by the heavy hand of threats, but many rightly worry that, as a consequence, the quality of care and education will deteriorate as a result. The State takes on the ersatz role of “generalist,” seemingly concerned for the good of the whole. It can only pursue that good by seeking to control pricing and access while influencing the ways “care” is provided, but it fails necessarily in caring for the vision of the whole that the actors of the professions are no longer willing or able to perform.

The debate as currently constituted represents a pincer movement aimed ultimately at the re-definition of each area—as we have seen in so many areas of contemporary life. While superficially opposites, proponents of each position in fact share a fundamental hostility to the original presuppositions that had informed the foundation of both institutions—the corporal works of charity central to the Church’s earthly mission.

In fact, it seems increasingly evident that practices such as health care and education are likely to fail when wholly uninformed by their original motivation of religious charity. Neither functions especially well based on the profit-motive or guided by large-scale national welfare policies. As the failure of the market model in each area becomes evident, the demands for the second—government intervention and control—have quickly followed. That both are reaching crises at the same time is hardly coincidental: both benefitted for a long time from the “social capital” accumulated as Church institutions, a legacy of cultures and practices that persisted for a long time even after the practitioners had ceased to embrace them. However, in both cases, the social capital is now depleted, and each now operates on a nonsensical combination of self-interested market motivations and taxation and threat-based national welfare policy. Neither is a fitting motivation or model for either sphere.


Even more deeply still, it is not untoward to speculate that part of the modern project is eventually to drive the Church from the dominant, and even residual, place of trustee in all areas of life where it once reigned. The market and State have infiltrated all areas where once the Church was the main actor, transforming institutions ranging from schools to land-stewardship to charity to marriage simultaneously in the image of market-based individual choice and nationalized demands for equalized homogeneity.

The motivation of charity is deeply suspect by both the Right and the Left. The Right—the heirs of the early modern liberal tradition—regard the only legitimate motivation to be self-interest and the profit motive. They favor a profit-based health-care system (one explored to devastating effect in this recent article on health care in the New Yorker), and a utilitarian university (the “polytechnic utiliversity” ably explored by Reinhard Huetter in the most recent issue of First Things).

The Left—while seemingly friends of charity and “social justice”—are deeply suspicious of motivations based on personal choice and religious belief. They desire rather the simulacrum of charity in the form of enforced standardization, homogeneity, and equality, based on the motivation of abstract and depersonalized national devotions and personal fear of government punishment. They insist on the appearance of “social justice” without any actual commitment to this end on the part of the citizenry. As a result, enforced equality gives rise to resentment and ill-will throughout the citizenry, turning commitments to goods that ought to be widely shared—health and education—into hot-button political issues.

In both spheres, health and education only “work” when those working in those areas are motivated most deeply by care for the people they serve—especially those who are less powerful, less mature, less accomplished than the professions that should rightly be considered “vocations,” not merely jobs. Both spheres require care for the whole person in all of their complete and individual integrity, not treatment of people as “parts” whom we serve mainly for the advancement of one’s own career or profit. In both spheres, increasingly, those who purportedly serve others—doctors and professors, who purportedly serve persons as patients and students—know little to nothing about either. They have become good workers on an assembly line, putting heads on pins, ignorant of the “product” they make—its history, its current state, its ultimate end.

Both spheres also require a concomitant shared commitment to commonweal on the part of those who benefit from the contributions of the professions. Doctors and teachers are not simply to be viewed as providing a service for pay, subject to the demands of “consumers.” Viewed through this market-based lens, the “buyers” make the demands on the providers. However, this understanding undermines the proper relationship between trustee and beneficiary—the doctor or teacher is actually in a relationship of responsible authority with the recipient, and ought rightly to make demands and even render judgments upon the one who is paying for the service. The trustee has a duty and a responsibility to enlarge the vision of the recipient—in matters of health (how certain behaviors might have led to a state of illness, in what ways the person ought to change their lives outside the doctor’s office), and formation (thus, a student should be challenged by the teacher not only to do well in the subject at hand, but to become a person of character in all spheres of life). Both the market and the State, however, increasingly regard the recipients simply as “consumers,” a view that is increasingly shared by every member and part of society.

Both practices are most appropriately animated by a more encompassing conception of human flourishing, which both integrally serve. Both are increasingly reduced to a utilitarian logic that internally destroys the integrity of each sphere, and, in that destruction, requires the increased intervention and control by the State.

For much of Western history, there was an understanding that there were two spheres of legitimate authority and competence—the Church and State, religious and civil. As part of the modern project, the Church was stripped of all claims to competence other than purely private belief. Arguably, one result of the increasing separation of the Church from these practices has been a bounty of benefits deriving from an increasingly scientistic and utilitarian pursuit of each, both premised on the human ability to master and control nature. These achievements are constantly celebrated as the rewards of the modern settlement (though the long-term benefits from this “mastery” seem tenuous to me).

But almost altogether unnoticed are the attendant costs of this transformation, costs that, ironically, make both health and education increasingly the province of the strong and wealthy. The appearance of crisis in each sphere at the same time is not coincidental—it is a consequence of a conscious set of decisions to banish motivations of Christian charity from almost every institution of human life. In their place, we have two deficient motivations and attendant practices—self-interest and depersonalized State-mandated social justice. It becomes clearer with every passing day that neither suffices, even as both grow stronger at the expense of the only motivation that might save us—the love of God to the point of contempt of self.

Throwing more money at public schools teaching a utilitarian curriculum designed to make our kids more efficient cogs in the machinery of global capitalism simply isn't going to change anything long-term, especially as the Automation Revolution renders an increasingly large % of our unskilled workers virtually unemployable.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Not defending Ducey or the proposed budget here. Just thought I'd point out that public education in Arizona isn't all bad. We've been on the cutting edge of school choice for decades, which is why several of the nation's best charter chains are located here.

Then again, I'm skeptical of compulsory public education in general. See this article by ND Professor Patrick Deneen titled "Health, Education -- and Welfare?"



Throwing more money at public schools teaching a utilitarian curriculum designed to make our kids more efficient cogs in the machinery of global capitalism simply isn't going to change anything long-term, especially as the Automation Revolution renders an increasingly large % of our unskilled workers virtually unemployable.

First, and with all due respect, I'm extremely skeptical of school choice reforms. Most, in my opinion, are ways to undermine and eventually privatize education. These reforms are one of the reasons that Arizona schools are struggling.

Second, I don't see public schools as he does. This paragraph, for example...

Both spheres also require a concomitant shared commitment to commonweal on the part of those who benefit from the contributions of the professions. Doctors and teachers are not simply to be viewed as providing a service for pay, subject to the demands of “consumers.” Viewed through this market-based lens, the “buyers” make the demands on the providers. However, this understanding undermines the proper relationship between trustee and beneficiary—the doctor or teacher is actually in a relationship of responsible authority with the recipient, and ought rightly to make demands and even render judgments upon the one who is paying for the service. The trustee has a duty and a responsibility to enlarge the vision of the recipient—in matters of health (how certain behaviors might have led to a state of illness, in what ways the person ought to change their lives outside the doctor’s office), and formation (thus, a student should be challenged by the teacher not only to do well in the subject at hand, but to become a person of character in all spheres of life). Both the market and the State, however, increasingly regard the recipients simply as “consumers,” a view that is increasingly shared by every member and part of society.

He's exactly right about what schools can be. It's what those INSIDE education want. Teachers do not want to view students as consumers. They do not view themselves as job trainers (by in large...I shouldn't speak for everyone). The political "reformers" want those things. The "reformers" want job training. They want to quantify achievement based on standardized tests, which is diametrically opposed to developing critical thinking skills and, in the Platonic tradition, building good citizens. Things like teacher tenure actually protect our ability to teach without viewing students (and parents) as consumers.

The reason we are moving toward this model of "consumers" is because of outside political forces. It has nothing to do with what people who actually spend time in classrooms want.
 

pkt77242

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That's still a far cry from having the ability to "reject any kid" they deem undesirable, no? And forcing every public educational institution to duplicate the same sorts of special ed programs is a dubious policy in the first place.

I'm very grateful that Arizona is so friendly toward charters. Chandler and Scottsdale excepted, most of our public schools run the gamut from average to terrible. And the local diocesan schools are atrocious as well; for $6k/ year, you get the same utilitarian curriculum the public schools are offering, with a religion course tacked on. No thanks.

I send my kids to a local charter chain called Great Hearts, which offers a classical liberal arts curriculum. It's much closer to a real Catholic education than what the diocese is offering, and it's paid for via my tax dollars.

I completely agree that we don't want to duplicate special education, I was more pointing out that even though they are required too take special education students most do everything possible to avoid it, so it is still apples to oranges on that account.

Down here the Vail school district is one of the best in Arizona (it is why we chose to live a little farther out) and so far we have been really happy with it.
 

IrishJayhawk

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I completely agree that we don't want to duplicate special education, I was more pointing out that even though they are required too take special education students most do everything possible to avoid it, so it is still apples to oranges on that account.

Down here the Vail school district is one of the best in Arizona (it is why we chose to live a little farther out) and so far we have been really happy with it.

Vail also has much less poverty than Tucson Unified. It also has a huge number of military kids with very involved parents.
 

IrishJayhawk

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On another note...

Much of the population in Arizona is on a fixed income (i.e., Social Security) and already sent their kids to great schools in the Midwest. They also vote in huge numbers. That makes it tougher to pass bills to fund public education.
 

Whiskeyjack

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First, and with all due respect, I'm extremely skeptical of school choice reforms. Most, in my opinion, are ways to undermine and eventually privatize education. These reforms are one of the reasons that Arizona schools are struggling.

I agree with you. Though I think the system is bound to fail regardless of whether we boost funding for it or try to force "innovation" through market-oriented reforms. The latter has at least produced some excellent charter schools that wouldn't exist if we had doubled down on the public system.

He's exactly right about what schools can be. It's what those INSIDE education want. Teachers do not want to view students as consumers. They do not view themselves as job trainers (by in large...I shouldn't speak for everyone). The political "reformers" want those things. The "reformers" want job training. They want to quantify achievement based on standardized tests, which is diametrically opposed to developing critical thinking skills and, in the Platonic tradition, building good citizens. Things like teacher tenure actually protect our ability to teach without viewing students (and parents) as consumers.

As Deneen points out, teaching is a profession in the classical sense; to capably form young minds, one has to have a coherent vision of the Good, True and Beautiful toward which to lead them. How can public school teachers do that when Americans are so bitterly divided on what that vision is? Or that objective Truth even exists?

Do you know who doesn't have a coherent vision of the Good, True and Beautiful? The Department of Education. Nor the cultural Marxists forming tomorrow's teachers in Masters of Education programs. Nor the nihilists who drafted the Common Core standards.

At the end of the day, every educator ends up teaching theology, at least implicitly. What passes for "secular" liberalism today is nothing more than Mainline Protestantism, just shorn of its obviously religious trappings. It's the same faith of the people who have always run this country, but now that it's morphed into Post-Protestant universalism, it doesn't even recognize its own biases and assumptions; which makes it more insidious than it's ever been before.

Protestants had to twist their theology into knots to justify breaking communion with Rome, which has led directly to faulty ideologies, and thus poor pedagogy. Catholics, who invented the modern university, don't suffer from that problem, which is why we've historically produced much better schools. For decades after WWII, the WASPy elites sent their kids to the local diocesan school because it was superior in every way to what our public schools were offering. And it'd still be that way today, if the American Church had done a better job of recognizing and resisting the Protestantization of its congregants and institutions.

Put another way, education is the quintessential local issue. Kids are best educated by those most heavily invested in the them. My neighborhood is heavily LDS, and I want those kids being educated by teachers who understand the values of the community; that often means home-schooling, or attending a local public (or charter) school that's dominated by Mormons. And I'd want the same thing for a Muslim or Jewish community. If a deep blue state thinks its kids are most effectively educated in large public institutions run by those who have been through a MEd program, then more power to them. But I don't want them teaching my children.
 
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B

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Protestants had to twist their theology into knots to justify breaking communion with Rome, which has led directly to faulty ideologies, and thus poor pedagogy. Catholics, who invented the modern university, don't suffer from that problem, which is why we've historically produced much better schools.

An odd point considering Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, etc weren't founded by Catholics. Catholics certainly were the banner carriers for education for a long time though. I guess I don't see what you're getting at.

For decades after WWII, the WASPy elites sent their kids to the local diocesan school because it was superior in every way to what our public schools were offering. And it'd still be that way today, if the American Church had done a better job of recognizing and resisting the Protestantization of its congregants and institutions.

Put another way, education is the quintessential local issue. Kids are best educated by those most heavily invested in the them. My neighborhood is heavily LDS, and I want those kids being educated by teachers who understand the values of the community; that often means home-schooling, or attending a local public (or charter) school that's dominated by Mormons. And I'd want the same thing for a Muslim or Jewish community. If a deep blue state thinks its kids are most effectively educated in large public institutions run by those who have been through a MEd program, then more power to them. But I don't want them teaching my children.

I certainly didn't see an inherent community vibe when I was driving 40min one-way to go to Catholic schools instead of the local public school within walking distance. Considering people in my class were from all over the area, there wasn't much community to it outside of the school functions.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think the local public school is the community at this point. We've so thoroughly destroyed/eliminated the public spaces in this country that it's gotten us to the point where suburbia sorta revolves around gathering at local high school sporting events.
 
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Buster Bluth

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As for education, say what you will about it's funding but I also think it'd be great if we made sugar a huge issue. Too many of America's children go to school basically fried outta their brains from a bowl or two of sugary cereal and their attention spans are reflecting it. Obviously we can't be draconian and take away people's sugar but we sure as hell can use the public's money/subsidies in a better way than we are, which is currently supporting foods that're being eaten to our detriment.
 
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Cackalacky

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michelle-obama-wink-o.gif
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Michelle Obama certainly has a point, but it's bigger than school lunches.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MepXBJjsNxs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

IrishJayhawk

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I agree with you. Though I think the system is bound to fail regardless of whether we boost funding for it or try to force "innovation" through market-oriented reforms. The latter has at least produced some excellent charter schools that wouldn't exist if we had doubled down on the public system.



As Deneen points out, teaching is a profession in the classical sense; to capably form young minds, one has to have a coherent vision of the Good, True and Beautiful toward which to lead them. How can public school teachers do that when Americans are so bitterly divided on what that vision is? Or that objective Truth even exists?

Do you know who doesn't have a coherent vision of the Good, True and Beautiful? The Department of Education. Nor the cultural Marxists forming tomorrow's teachers in Masters of Education programs. Nor the nihilists who drafted the Common Core standards.

At the end of the day, every educator ends up teaching theology, at least implicitly. What passes for "secular" liberalism today is nothing more than Mainline Protestantism, just shorn of its obviously religious trappings. It's the same faith of the people who have always run this country, but now that it's morphed into Post-Protestant universalism, it doesn't even recognize its own biases and assumptions; which makes it more insidious than it's ever been before.

Protestants had to twist their theology into knots to justify breaking communion with Rome, which has led directly to faulty ideologies, and thus poor pedagogy. Catholics, who invented the modern university, don't suffer from that problem, which is why we've historically produced much better schools. For decades after WWII, the WASPy elites sent their kids to the local diocesan school because it was superior in every way to what our public schools were offering. And it'd still be that way today, if the American Church had done a better job of recognizing and resisting the Protestantization of its congregants and institutions.

Put another way, education is the quintessential local issue. Kids are best educated by those most heavily invested in the them. My neighborhood is heavily LDS, and I want those kids being educated by teachers who understand the values of the community; that often means home-schooling, or attending a local public (or charter) school that's dominated by Mormons. And I'd want the same thing for a Muslim or Jewish community. If a deep blue state thinks its kids are most effectively educated in large public institutions run by those who have been through a MEd program, then more power to them. But I don't want them teaching my children.

Strong values, critical thinking, and the "good, true, and beautiful" are certainly present in a great deal of theology. But they are not the exclusive domain of the religious.

Given that I'm one of the people you would rather not have educating your children, I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. Too bad. I'm a heck of a teacher. :)
 
C

Cackalacky

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Michelle Obama certainly has a point, but it's bigger than school lunches.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MepXBJjsNxs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Oh yeah, no doubt. Public schools may be the only place some kids get anything remotely healthy.
 

Whiskeyjack

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An odd point considering Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, etc weren't founded by Catholics. Catholics certainly were the banner carriers for education for a long time though. I guess I don't see what you're getting at.

Harvard, Yale and Princeton were all explicitly Mainline Protestant at their founding. And, not coincidentally, those three are currently the chief cathedrals from which the gospel of Post-Protestant universalism is spread throughout the world. But more to your point, Catholic universities have always been at a significant disadvantage in this country, because college has historically been a domain for the wealthy, and the American elite has always been very WASPy. It's a minor miracle that Hesburgh was able to build ND's relationship to its current heights.

I certainly didn't see an inherent community vibe when I was driving 40min one-way to go to Catholic schools instead of the local public school within walking distance. Considering people in my class were from all over the area, there wasn't much community to it outside of the school functions.

Isn't the fact that your parents' endured that commute a testament to the enduring quality of Catholic education (even in its current much-diminished state)?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I think the local public school is the community at this point. We've so thoroughly destroyed/eliminated the public spaces in this country that it's gotten us to the point where suburbia sorta revolves around gathering at local high school sporting events.

That's true, as far as it goes, but community control over local schools has been trending in the wrong direction for decades.

Strong values, critical thinking, and the "good, true, and beautiful" are certainly present in a great deal of theology.

Whose values?

But they are not the exclusive domain of the religious.

As I argued before, we're all doing theology. Even the "secular' public schools.

Given that I'm one of the people you would rather not have educating your children, I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. Too bad. I'm a heck of a teacher. :)

I apologize for my earlier post. It wandered off-topic and came off unduly harsh to several posters here who I have a great deal of respect for. My sister, for instance, has an MEd, though she's now an Assistant Headmaster at a Great Hearts school (which, as an organization, prefers to hire teachers with subject-specific degrees over those with MEds). You mentioned Platonic ideals and have a strong disdain for instrumental teaching, so I have little doubt that you're an excellent educator. But that's not indicative of most MEd I know.

Let me try again. I try to apply the same Catholic principles to education that I do to politics, economics, urban planning, etc.; in this case, the most relevant are (1) subsidiarity; and (2) the primacy of community.

Regarding (1), I assume you'd agree that all the recent utilitarian-focused and metric-based Federal initiatives to create "accountability" have not improved the quality of education in this country, right? And it shouldn't be a mystery as to why this instrumental approach to schooling is being pushed-- we have to remain "competitive" with our international rivals. In other words, our corporatist overlords would prefer that American schools focus on churning out more effective cogs for the machinery of global capitalism instead of wasting time on humanizing our students or giving them the ability to critique the status quo.

That's the direct result of the Department of Education-- imperial meddling in essentially locally affairs. It's always been a malign influence, and becomes moreso with each passing day. I'd love to see the Department of Education abolished so that states and localities could start exerting more control over curriculum and teaching methods. So that's one major reason I'd oppose simply doubling down on the current system.

And as for (2), you never answered my question as to how we're supposed to settle on a national curriculum (or standards, which is basically the same thing), when Americans are more polarized than ever over what constitutes the Common Good. Public schools, by their very nature, have to adopt a one-size-fits-all approach which invariably provides a poor ideological fit for an increasing number of families. I'd rather see a proliferation of small schools that reflect the values of the communities in which they're located than the huge top-down institutions that predominate in most states currently.

Anyway, it seems like we agree on much more than my previous post indicated. We may part ways on whether the Federal government has any role to play in education, and whether it's possible to develop a neutral yet holistic curriculum for ideologically diverse groups of students.
 

EddytoNow

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...That's the direct result of the Department of Education-- imperial meddling in essentially locally affairs. It's always been a malign influence, and becomes moreso with each passing day. I'd love to see the Department of Education abolished so that states and localities could start exerting more control over curriculum and teaching methods. So that's one major reason I'd oppose simply doubling down on the current system...

While I totally agree that there has been and continues to be a lot of interference in local educational affairs, the bulk of the interference comes from self-promoting politicians, not the Department of Education. Public education is a perennial campaign issue with politicians blaming teachers for the problems the politicians themselves have created. The sooner the politicians remove themselves from educational decision-making and return decision-making to the local educational leaders, the better off the public education system will be.

Politicians don't pass laws telling other occupations how to perform their job, but somehow they think themselves more knowledgeable than educators who have been teaching for 20 years or more. They have zero educational experience, but they are self-proclaimed experts on education. Is there any wonder the system is broken?
 

Whiskeyjack

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While I totally agree that there has been and continues to be a lot of interference in local educational affairs, the bulk of the interference comes from self-promoting politicians, not the Department of Education. Public education is a perennial campaign issue with politicians blaming teachers for the problems the politicians themselves have created. The sooner the politicians remove themselves from educational decision-making and return decision-making to the local educational leaders, the better off the public education system will be.

I agree that politicians at all levels of government interfere with education, but that's inevitable since the Feds organized it into a top-down bureaucracy wherein they dictate terms to the states. If we want to minimize the influence of politics in education policy, we have to ditch the current structure and go with something much more decentralized.

Politicians don't pass laws telling other occupations how to perform their job, but somehow they think themselves more knowledgeable than educators who have been teaching for 20 years or more. They have zero educational experience, but they are self-proclaimed experts on education. Is there any wonder the system is broken?

They're doing the same thing to doctors. As Deneen's article on the last page argues, education and healthcare are essentially charitable missions. Privatization and socialization both pervert those missions in serious (though different) ways. One major drawback of socialized education is that it's always a hot button political issue.
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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While I totally agree that there has been and continues to be a lot of interference in local educational affairs, the bulk of the interference comes from self-promoting politicians, not the Department of Education. Public education is a perennial campaign issue with politicians blaming teachers for the problems the politicians themselves have created. The sooner the politicians remove themselves from educational decision-making and return decision-making to the local educational leaders, the better off the public education system will be.

Politicians don't pass laws telling other occupations how to perform their job, but somehow they think themselves more knowledgeable than educators who have been teaching for 20 years or more. They have zero educational experience, but they are self-proclaimed experts on education. Is there any wonder the system is broken?

The public schools you're talking about get their money from the state (mostly) and federal (little bit) which equals those politicians in power, so the schools are at their will. You're right...it shouldn't be like that, but that's what you get with government run education.
 

phgreek

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Well I just caught part of Mrs. Clinton's press conference. Another instance of ..."sounds good when you say it fast"...but here are the basic problems from my perspective.

1) Mrs. Clinton does not get to claim the servers secure...there is a certification and accreditation process that determines that. It sounds like her server had no such certification.

2) Mrs Clinton conflates "secure" with Secure Facility. A secure facility is a " thing" and is the result of an audit...and allows you to specifically keep certain level of sensitive information on a site AFTER notified you can do so. If she did not have such an audit, that facility was not secure per federal regulation.

3) turning over printed emails, or selected emails outside the original server does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO CLEAR HER. If forensic professionals do not have access to the server and archives they cannot determine if there were deletions and/or modifications...therefore getting emails is a WASTE OF TIME.

The whys and wherefores regarding the need for her email are a different topic. What she tried to assert today...total and complete bullshit.
 

Andy in Sactown

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Having worked extensively in Information Assurance, her presser made me cringe repeatedly. So much fail, Hilary. If I were her IA auditor, she'd be fired (if there was anyone over her in the chain of command with any sense).

<-- Former Primary Information Assurance Technician, Legacy Systems Suite, Navy Region Southwest (NAVCOMTELSTA San Diego)
 
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IRISHDODGER

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Politicians don't pass laws telling other occupations how to perform their job, but somehow they think themselves more knowledgeable than educators who have been teaching for 20 years or more. They have zero educational experience, but they are self-proclaimed experts on education.

They do now. With Obamacare physicians are told how to perform their job. For instance, if a Type II diabetic patient whose been prescribed the appropriate diabetes meds + lifestyle changes doesn't get to goal b/c while they took the prescribed medicine they avoided the essential lifestyle changes (diet, diet, diet, diet & diet), the physican will get less reimbursement for that particular patient's fees. So through no fault of the HCP, the patient's lack of compliance penalizes the HCP. As my physician friend told me "I'll have to start firing patients".
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Gotta love DC. This sounds like an episode of House of Cards.

Obama adviser behind leak of Hillary Clinton’s email scandal | New York Post

"Six separate probes into Hillary’s performance have been ongoing on at the State Department. I’m told that the e-mail scandal was timed to come out just as Hillary was on the verge of formally announcing that she was running for president — and that there’s more to come."

"If she (Hillary) gets into the White House, they (Obama and Jarrett) believe she will compromise with the Republicans in Congress and undo Obama’s legacy."
 
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