Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Whiskeyjack

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Aeon's Henry Farrell just published an article titled "Dark Leviathan" which raises serious questions about the practicality of libertarianism:

The Hidden Wiki holds the keys to a secret internet. To reach it, you need a special browser that can access ‘Tor Hidden Services’ – websites that have chosen to obscure their physical location. But even this browser isn’t enough. Like the Isla de Muerta in the film Pirates of the Caribbean, the landmarks of this hidden internet can be discovered only by those who already know where they are.

Sites such as the Hidden Wiki provide unreliable treasure maps. They publish lists of the special addresses for sites where you can use Bitcoin to buy drugs or stolen credit card numbers, play strange games, or simply talk, perhaps on subjects too delicate for the open web. The lists are often untrustworthy. Sometimes the addresses are out-of-date. Sometimes they are actively deceptive. One link might lead to a thriving marketplace for buying and selling stolen data; another, to a wrecker’s display of false lights, a cloned site designed to relieve you of your coin and give you nothing in return.

This hidden internet is a product of debates among technology-obsessed libertarians in the 1990s. These radicals hoped to combine cryptography and the internet into a universal solvent that would corrupt the bonds of government tyranny. New currencies, based on recent cryptographic advances, would undermine traditional fiat money, seizing the cash nexus from the grasp of the state. ‘Mix networks’, where everyone’s identity was hidden by multiple layers of encryption, would allow people to talk and engage in economic exchange without the government being able to see.

Plans for cryptographic currencies led to the invention of Bitcoin, while mix networks culminated in Tor. The two technologies manifest different aspects of a common dream – the utopian aspiration to a world where one could talk and do business without worrying about state intervention – and indeed they grew up together. For a long time, the easiest way to spend Bitcoin was at Tor’s archipelago of obfuscated websites.

Like the pirate republics of the 18th century, this virtual underworld mingles liberty and vice. Law enforcement and copyright-protection groups such as the Digital Citizens’ Alliance in Washington, DC, prefer to emphasise the most sordid aspects of Tor’s hidden services – the sellers of drugs, weapons and child pornography. And yet the effort to create a hidden internet was driven by ideology as much as avarice. The network is used by dissidents as well as dope-peddlers. If you live under an authoritarian regime, Tor provides you with a ready-made technology for evading government controls on the internet. Even some of the seedier services trade on a certain idealism. Many libertarians believe that people should be able to buy and sell drugs without government interference, and hoped to build marketplaces to do just that, without violence and gang warfare.

Tor’s anonymity helps criminals by making it harder for the state to identify and detain them. Yet this has an ironic side-effect: it also makes it harder for them to trust each other, because they typically can’t be sure who their interlocutors are. To make money in hidden markets, you need people to trust you, so that they will buy from you and sell to you. Having accomplished this first manoeuvre, the truly successful entrepreneurs go one step further. They become middlemen of trust, guaranteeing relations between others and taking a cut from the proceeds.

To this end, entrepreneurs have found it necessary to create and maintain communities, making rules, enforcing them, punishing rule-breakers, and turning towards violence when all else fails. They have, in effect, built petty versions of the very governments they are fleeing. As the US sociologist Charles Tilly argued, the modern state began as a protection racket, offering its subjects protection against outsiders and each other. The same logic is playing out today on the hidden internet, as would-be petty barons and pirate kings fight to tax and police their subjects while defending themselves against hostile incursions.

No entrepreneur of trust was more successful than the Texan Ross Ulbricht, who, under his ‘Dread Pirate Roberts’ pseudonym, founded and ran the notorious Silk Road marketplace for drugs and other contraband. And no-one better exemplifies how the libertarian dream of freedom from the state turned sour.

Ulbricht built the Silk Road marketplace from nothing, pursuing both a political dream and his own self-interest. However, in making a market he found himself building a micro-state, with increasing levels of bureaucracy and rule‑enforcement and, eventually, the threat of violence against the most dangerous rule‑breakers. Trying to build Galt’s Gulch, he ended up reconstructing Hobbes’s Leviathan; he became the very thing he was trying to escape. But this should not have been a surprise.

In his memoir Men of Dishonor (1993), the former mafioso Antonino Calderone describes the world of the mafia as one where no fact or statement ever has only one meaning. The mob boss Toto Riina ordered the death of Calderone’s brother and then delivered a glowing encomium to the dead man at his funeral. After betraying his close friend Emanuele D’Agostino to a mafia chief, Rosario Riccobono was rewarded with an invitation to a barbecue at the chief’s estate; he awoke from a post-prandial nap to find his killers looming with a garrote. Stefano Bontade actually knew his murderers well enough to make them coffee before they killed him.

One consequence of all this bloodletting is that criminals must perpetually monitor each other’s statements for subtle intimations of betrayal. As Diego Gambetta, the sociologist of the Sicilian Mafia, put it, they are ‘constantly afraid of being duped, while at the same time they are busy duping others’.

A similar paranoia appears to be even more endemic on the hidden internet, where anonymity is built into the architecture of social interactions. When Sicilian Mafiosi deal with each other, they do at least know each other and can retaliate, often in horrible ways, if they think that they have been cheated. This allows them to maintain a wary peace for much of the time. On the hidden internet, by contrast, people do not know the true identities of those who want to buy or sell.

This creates a problem for all parties. Obviously enough, buyers do not know if they can trust their sellers to deliver or to keep their information safe. If a seller cheats them, they cannot easily retaliate, since they do not know who the seller is. Yet this is a bind for sellers, too. Game theory suggests that without the possibility of retaliation, no buyers will enter into business in the first place, since they have every expectation that they will be cheated. There will, in short, be no market. Sellers will have no-one to sell to, and everyone will be worse off.

Would-be criminals on the hidden internet repeatedly complain that they have been ripped off. In the description of one commenter on the Hidden Wiki:
I have been scammed more than twice now by assholes who say they’re legit when I say I want to purchase stolen credit cards. I want to do tons of business but I DO NOT want to be scammed. I wish there were people who were honest crooks. If anyone could help me out that would be awesome! I just want to buy one at first so I know the seller is legit and honest.

This creates a market niche for intermediaries, who can become entrepreneurs of trust, supporting relationships between buyers and sellers who otherwise would not trust each other. Again, the Sicilian Mafia provides a precedent. Gambetta finds that they began as brokers of trust between buyers and sellers in a rural society without effective laws. The Mafia made money by guaranteeing transactions, threatening cheaters, and sometimes cultivating a general atmosphere of paranoia in order to ensure demand for their services. In other words, it built an informal order of its own, inimical to conventional laws, that gradually began to supplant the traditional state.

When Ulbricht began to grow hallucinogenic mushrooms and sell them on the internet in 2010, he didn’t see himself either as a Mafioso or a state builder. Instead, it appears that he was driven by enthusiasm for the libertarian thinker Murray Rothbard. On his LinkedIn profile, Ulbricht declared his intention to use ‘economic theory as a means to abolish the use of coercion and aggression amongst mankind’, and to build an ‘economic simulation’ that would let people see what it was like to live in a world without the ‘systemic use of force’. At the same time, he didn’t mind turning a profit from his activism – his diary entries show that he was pleased to make money from his first crop of mushrooms, and disappointed that he cashed out his first profits before the price of Bitcoin peaked.

Ulbricht was not, by his own description, a particularly skilled hacker. His early versions of the Silk Road site had serious design and security flaws. Where he excelled was in getting other people to trust him. On the earliest iteration of the site, he sold drugs himself, developing a reputation for good customer service. He processed all transactions by hand, charged no commission and used messaging to talk to buyers and sellers. In this way, he cultivated a web of relationships that could be turned into a fully fledged marketplace.

As the site became larger, it inevitably became more bureaucratic. Long before he started building it, Ulbricht had been advised that he needed to establish metrics for trustworthiness. As soon as he could, he introduced an automated rating system, letting reliable sellers establish a reputation for fair dealing. Ulbricht also created a discussion forum on which visitors could gossip about their experiences with dealers and customers. Payments were handled by an automatic escrow system, under which buyers could lodge funds with the site’s management and refuse to pay until the goods arrived. However, sellers with an established reputation were often able to insist that their customers didn’t use the protections of the escrow system. When payment was made in advance, this was called ‘finalising early’.

Seller pseudonyms provided a rough equivalent to a commercial brand. As the Stanford economist David Kreps has noted, a secured brand name with a reputation for honest dealing is an asset, and the desire to preserve its value can provide the incentive for future honesty. Not that the value is dependent on the actual owner of the name: a trademark can be sold or passed from one individual to another without losing its power. Ulbricht’s own pseudonym suggests that he had given this some thought: the original Dread Pirate Roberts appears in William Goldman’s comic fantasy novel The Princess Bride (1973), where it is a composite identity, passed from pirate captain to pirate captain as a kind of guarantee of fearsomeness.

As Ulbricht transformed a free-flowing market into a structured hierarchy, he began to take a stronger hand in policing the system that he had created. Traders started to find themselves getting banned, for offences such as defrauding customers or trying to bilk the house of its commission. In this, Silk Road appears to have been following a well-trodden path. Game theorists such as Avner Greif and Randall Calvert have argued that this was how the decentralised medieval trading systems gradually gave way to more robust systems based on the centralised power of the state. Ulbricht – and other market builders like him – had recapitulated this developmental history by combining reputation-based incentives and centralised adjudication.

It seems that Ulbricht felt a little defensive about his new political role. In his persona as the Dread Pirate Roberts, he claimed in Silk Road forums that there was a fundamental difference between an organisation such as Silk Road and a state. Silk Road was ‘regulated by market forces, not a central power’, and even he, the Dread Pirate Roberts, was subject to market competition. If sellers and customers didn’t like the rules he made, they could go to other drug bazaars on the hidden web. He acknowledged the theoretical possibility that ‘voluntary organisations’ such as his site might spy on users, imprison them or even kill them. This would indeed mean that ‘[W]e’re back to where we started, the present day state.’ However, he insisted, market competition would make sure that this never came to pass.

Yet market competition was no guarantee of honesty. Sometimes traders wanted to build up a reputation for honest dealing so that they could take the money and run. Several scammers gamed the system by establishing themselves as apparently reliable drug dealers, making a large number of near-simultaneous sales, demanding that customers finalise the payment before they got the goods and then disappearing with the money. Since the scammers used pseudonyms and Tor just like everyone else, outraged customers could do little except issue grandiose threats in the discussion forum.

They were vulnerable to more profound betrayals, too. Customers had to give mailing addresses to dealers if they wanted their drugs delivered. Under Silk Road’s rules, dealers were supposed to delete this information as soon as the transaction was finished. However, it was impossible for Ulbricht to enforce this rule unless (as happened once) a dealer admitted that he had kept the names and addresses. It’s likely that Silk Road dealers systematically broke these rules. At least one former Silk Road dealer, Michael Duch, who testified at Ulbricht’s trial, kept the names and addresses of all his clients in a handy spreadsheet.

This created an obvious vulnerability – indeed, an existential threat to Ulbricht’s business. If any reasonably successful dealer leaked the contact details for users en masse, customers would flee and the site would collapse. And so, when a Silk Road user with the pseudonym FriendlyChemist threatened to do just that, Ulbricht did not invoke Silk Road’s internal rules or rely on impersonal market forces. Instead, he tried to use the final argument of kings: physical violence. He paid $150,000 to someone whom he believed to be a senior member of the Hells Angels to arrange for the murder of his blackmailer, later paying another $500,000 to have associates of FriendlyChemist murdered too.

It is unclear if anyone was, in fact, killed by anyone else. Indeed, it seems most likely that the whole affair was a scam in which FriendlyChemist and his purported assassin were associates (or possibly the same person). Still, it marked the final stage in an extraordinary transformation. Ulbricht began as an idealist, setting out to build a market free from what he described as the ‘thieving murderous mits’ of the state. He ended up paying muscle to protect the bureaucratic system that he had created.

Ulbricht might have been incompetent, but he likely saw himself as having little choice about whether to seek help from real criminals. As money began to flow into the hidden internet, so too did cupidity and Realpolitik. Initially, Ulbricht saw himself as bringing ‘order and civility’ to a black market where others, like him, were committed to libertarian ideals. Yet order in actual markets depends on threats of violence – whether the penalties embedded in the laws of the state, or the bloody interventions of mob bosses. In the absence of such arrangements, predators move in. The Silk Road’s business model worked only if genuinely ruthless people didn’t notice its critical vulnerabilities. As soon as it began to attract attention – and earn enormous amounts of money – its course was set.

Ulbricht’s diaries make it clear that he was already living on the sufferance of other criminals who had no particular attachment to libertarian ideals. He was paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to stave off denial-of-service attacks that threatened to cripple his website. The fragile web of trust upon which the market depended would have collapsed had any mid-sized Silk Road dealer revealed his list of customers. In this light, it’s no surprise that Ulbricht wanted to make common cause with a notoriously violent gang, educating them about online drug markets while they mentored him on how to neutralise threats to his business model. He desperately needed protection.

Beneath the particular details of Ulbricht’s story, we find an entirely typical progression. It is no surprise to learn that other drug marketplaces on the secret internet are also responding to the same pressures by becoming ever more like miniature states; policing the industry of their members within, guarding ever more ferociously against dangers from without. Like Hobbes’s sovereign Leviathans, they are in continuous jealousies, maintaining internal industry while having their weapons pointed and eyes fixed upon each other.

After Ulbricht’s arrest in October 2013, a few of his old crew tried to set up a new marketplace, the Silk Road 2. When this site came under attack, the new Dread Pirate Roberts retaliated against the marketplace that he believed was responsible for the aggression, hacking into its systems to seize a list of its customers’ names and addresses and hence wreak catastrophe upon its business. Other markets, such as the aptly named Sheep Marketplace (which disappeared with tens of millions of dollars’ worth of Bitcoin) are simply fleecing their customers and getting out of the game.

All of these petty principalities are vulnerable to criminals trying to extract ransom, and increasingly to law enforcement, which has inveigled its way into trusted positions so that it can gather information and destroy illicit marketplaces. The libertarian hope that markets could sustain themselves through free association and choice is a chimera with a toxic sting in its tail. Without state enforcement, the secret drug markets of Tor hidden services are coming to resemble an anarchic state of nature in which self-help dominates.

Ulbricht’s carelessness brought about the early demise of Silk Road. But if he hadn’t been stupid, the marketplace would have soon collapsed under its own weight, or become the creature of larger organisations with a far greater capacity for violence. The libertarian dream of free online drug markets that can magically and peacefully regulate themselves is just that: a dream. Playing at pirates is only fun as long as the other players are kids too. The trouble is, once adults with real swords appear, it may be too late to wake up.
 

GoIrish41

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See Lax's post above with specifics. I can't vouch for its accuracy, but assuming such flaws are present in the guidelines, do you not see a problem with teaching high school history solely through the lens of Critical Theory (racial, feminist, Marxist, etc.)? Particularly when those kids almost assuredly have no idea what Critical Theory is, or the assumptions embedded within such a world view. Doing so is no less damaging than teaching a white-washed history of American Exceptionalism.



It is difficult, because history cannot be taught well without imposing some sort of narrative on the events of the past, and doing so involves the assumption of at least some political values. Which makes it all the more important than history teachers acknowledge that there are multiple competing narratives. Based on what I've read about the new AP History guidelines, that doesn't seem to be the case.


I am certainly not defending the new standards or condemning them. I was just trying to make the point that this "curriculum" seems to be designed to challenge student assumptions about History ... to give them the raw material to think critically about the decisions that were made (or not made) that contributed to shaping the nation. I do not disagree with your first paragraph, but it seems that the devil is in the details. How will these guidelines by administered in the classroom? If they are purely used as vehicle to expose the seamy underbelly of American history, there is not much good that can come of that. This would indeed be damaging, although I have serious doubts that that is the intent. On the other hand, the intent of some who I have heard speaking or seen in print is to offer only a "white-washed history of Americna Exceptionalism" as the alternative. One report I read spelled out the reading lists for students, to include Ronald Reagan's innaugural address, some offerings by W., and various other documents that offer one or more variations of "The Shining City on the Hill."

I could not agree with your second point more. There needs to be balance. School is not supposed to be an indoctrination, but a breeding ground for effective analysis and thinking. I will repeat myself here, but I feel like these are guidelines and not meant to be a comprehensive set of topics that will be taught, and no others. If one is willing to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, he might conclude that history classes across the country have traditionally focused on how nobel, right, and exeptional American has been. I don't know if even I am willing to accept that these guidelines were written with purely innocent intentions, but I also don't think it has to be one bias version of history or the other. There is plenty of nuance in American history that can be explored and used to inspire discussion.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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If they are purely used as vehicle to expose the seamy underbelly of American history, there is not much good that can come of that. This would indeed be damaging, although I have serious doubts that that is the intent.

Of all the criticism I've read on this subject, the one most consistently expressed is that the ideological bias is inherent in how the College Board is now requiring AP History teachers to focus on certain periods (Civil War, Civil Rights Movement, etc.) much more extensively than before, which necessarily means that other periods (the Founding, WWII, etc.) get short shrift. So not only will teachers now have much less latitude in tailoring their own lesson plans, but they're basically hand-cuffed to a Progressive historical narrative of Americans moving from oppression of minorities to liberty for all.

On the other hand, the intent of some who I have heard speaking or seen in print is to offer only a "white-washed history of Americna Exceptionalism" as the alternative. One report I read spelled out the reading lists for students, to include Ronald Reagan's innaugural address, some offerings by W., and various other documents that offer one or more variations of "The Shining City on the Hill."

That's indefensible as well.

If one is willing to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, he might conclude that history classes across the country have traditionally focused on how nobel, right, and exeptional American has been.

Was that your experience? Arizona's a pretty red state, yet even at my Jesuit all-male prep school, the curriculum had a very Progressive slant. The reading list for 2nd semester AP English III was dominated by The Bluest Eye, The Color Purple, and Roll of Thunder, Here My Cry. I wasn't able to articulate my discomfort with it at the time, but White Guilt was implicit in a lot of what we studied, yet it was never presented explicitly or balanced against a more triumphalist narrative of American nobility.

That's anecdotal of course, but the overwhelmingly Progressive bias among professors (especially in the Humanities) is not. So while the counter examples of southern states mandating a white-washed version of US History or Creationism in primary classrooms is certainly problematic, it's disingenuous to argue for some of equivalency between them.

Bringing this back to the topic at hand, were there AP US History teachers pushing a glossy 'Murican narrative of the past? I doubt it, because one would be hard-pressed to even pass the test--let alone score the 4 or 5 necessary for credit at most colleges--in light of what such narratives leave out. So I don't see why the new allegedly biased guidelines were even necessary.
 
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phgreek

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Just to shoot the breeze a bit:

Rudolph W. Giuliani ... challenged reporters last week to find examples of the president’s love of country.

In 2008, when he was still a presidential candidate, Mr. Obama told thousands in Berlin: “I also know how much I love America.” At the Democratic National Convention later that year, he did it again: “I love this country, and so do you, and so does John McCain.” And again in 2001, in a meeting with voters in Illinois, recalling “why I love this country so much.”
Over hundreds of speeches, Mr. Obama has paid tribute to the United States as “the greatest democratic, economic, and military force for freedom and human dignity the world has ever known.”
Mr. Obama – as Mr. Giuliani, the former New York mayor – and other critics have pointed out, has also been vocal in discussing what he considers to be the country’s shortcomings. In fact, several of Mr. Obama’s most emphatic expressions of patriotism appear in proximity to his critiques of America.
“I know my country has not perfected itself,” Mr. Obama said in Berlin. “But I also know how much I love America.”

– Michael Barbaro and Michael D. Shear (NYT)


The theory of democratic government is not that the will of the people is always right, but rather that normal human beings of average intelligence will, if given a chance, learn the right and best course by bitter experience.

– W.E.B. Du Bois, educator, civil rights activist, and writer (23 Feb 1868-1963

...cause he said so...

Men tell women every day they love them...they tell their friends, and coworkers, anyone who'd listen...then they go home and beat that wife...sayin it doesn't mean anything.

I don't know if the President does or does not love this country...neither do you, and neither does Rudy. He probably deserves the benefit of the doubt if for no other reason than the fact that we elected him twice...if he hates America, we are dumber than I thought. However, what I can do is judge him on what he does. I don't see a man promoting the good this country does as frequently or as vehemently as he laments the present and historical bad. Maybe I need to listen harder...
 

IrishinSyria

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...cause he said so...

Men tell women every day they love them...they tell their friends, and coworkers, anyone who'd listen...then they go home and beat that wife...sayin it doesn't mean anything.

I don't know if the President does or does not love this country...neither do you, and neither does Rudy. He probably deserves the benefit of the doubt if for no other reason than the fact that we elected him twice...if he hates America, we are dumber than I thought. However, what I can do is judge him on what he does. I don't see a man promoting the good this country does as frequently or as vehemently as he laments the present and historical bad. Maybe I need to listen harder...

Here's the thing (which you kind of acknowledge in your second paragraph): absolutely nothing That you've identified over the past few pages is analogous to wife beating. The President's actions have been perfectly consistent with someone who has moderately progressive beliefs. If he did not "love" America, you would expect him to work against American interests as he understands them. All you've done is prove that he's (somewhat) progressive.
 

IrishinSyria

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Of all the criticism I've read on this subject, the one most consistently expressed is that the ideological bias is inherent in how the College Board is now requiring AP History teachers to focus on certain periods (Civil War, Civil Rights Movement, etc.) much more extensively than before, which necessarily means that other periods (the Founding, WWII, etc.) get short shrift. So not only will teachers now have much less latitude in tailoring their own lesson plans, but they're basically hand-cuffed to a Progressive historical narrative of Americans moving from oppression of minorities to liberty for all.

I glossed over the course plan, and it didn't seem very offensive to me. I think it's important to remember that by the time a student gets to AP American history, they should already have a good grasp of the standard narrative of American history- this curriculum looks like it's designed to challenge assumptions students have already developed

On a side note, I don't see it as a problem if WWII gets short shifted in American AP history. It's a much more fitting subject for a European or International history course. Americans like to get off to the idea that our "greatest generation" saved the world from evil, but that's only partially true, especially in the European theater. For much of the war, about 70-90% of Germany's combat strength was on the Eastern front. It seems impossible to do anything but paint a very lopsided picture of the war in an American history course.
 

phgreek

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Here's the thing (which you kind of acknowledge in your second paragraph): absolutely nothing That you've identified over the past few pages is analogous to wife beating. The President's actions have been perfectly consistent with someone who has moderately progressive beliefs. If he did not "love" America, you would expect him to work against American interests as he understands them. All you've done is prove that he's (somewhat) progressive.

I've identified in the last few pages...??? I don't recall saying much about Rudy's comments.

Also the point is, people say things all the time...things they believe...things they even get others to believe...but actions speak louder than words. My example/analogy was about that, and not intended to compare wife beating to sucking at promoting America.

I didn't set out to prove anything...I gave my opinion based on what I see....my experience.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Really tell me more. Look you hate Obama, we all get it. All you have done is point out how you disagree with his policies and you have not posted a single thing showing he hates America. The fact that you can't understand the difference between those two things is scary.

I'll try this again, because you're taking the conversation in a different direction. I didn't want to break down policy. I did say the question Rudy brought up was fair and legitimate, primarily based on Obama's personal background and influences throughout life.

I even said in an earlier post, which I guess you ignored or didn't read altogether, was that I can't sit here and know how he really feels about the US. I do know that when you associate yourself with people like Ayers and Wright, the question of how you feel about this country and whether it stands for good or evil is legitimate.

Last, this statement or question didn't come from a conspiracy nut claiming Obama is a Muslim Communist. It didn't come from a guy in backwoods Louisiana wearing overalls saying Obama is the anti Christ. It came from Rudy Giuliani. Agree or disagree, that's why this has been getting so much media coverage and why so many people are talking about it. It's legitimate, and my only regret is that it took this long.
 
B

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...cause he said so...

Men tell women every day they love them...they tell their friends, and coworkers, anyone who'd listen...then they go home and beat that wife...sayin it doesn't mean anything.

I don't know if the President does or does not love this country...neither do you, and neither does Rudy. He probably deserves the benefit of the doubt if for no other reason than the fact that we elected him twice...if he hates America, we are dumber than I thought. However, what I can do is judge him on what he does. I don't see a man promoting the good this country does as frequently or as vehemently as he laments the present and historical bad. Maybe I need to listen harder...

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

If you're going to claim that the President doesn't love his country, you need to back that up and not hide behind "Well you never know...".
 

pkt77242

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I'll try this again, because you're taking the conversation in a different direction. I didn't want to break down policy. I did say the question Rudy brought up was fair and legitimate, primarily based on Obama's personal background and influences throughout life.

I even said in an earlier post, which I guess you ignored or didn't read altogether, was that I can't sit here and know how he really feels about the US. I do know that when you associate yourself with people like Ayers and Wright, the question of how you feel about this country and whether it stands for good or evil is legitimate.

Last, this statement or question didn't come from a conspiracy nut claiming Obama is a Muslim Communist. It didn't come from a guy in backwoods Louisiana wearing overalls saying Obama is the anti Christ. It came from Rudy Giuliani. Agree or disagree, that's why this has been getting so much media coverage and why so many people are talking about it. It's legitimate, and my only regret is that it took this long.

So I will bite on this part. Who cares that Giuliani said it? Ever since he tried to run for President he has turned into a caricature of himself.

Wickham: My family served, Giuliani did not
 

DonnieNarco

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Giuliani is irrelevant and trying to get more attention now. The biggest news is that he strayed from "noun-verb-9/11" speech pattern.
 

phgreek

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What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

If you're going to claim that the President doesn't love his country, you need to back that up and not hide behind "Well you never know...".



Aside from the fact that I didn't say I thought he hated America....and I thought we owed it to him to give him the benefit of the doubt in deference to everyone who elected him TWICE. All that inconvenient shit aside...

Do you know for a fact what is in his head? Is it true the only thing you really can do is judge a man on his actions? Is it true even then you may be driven by your own Bias? Did I not address all of these things?

...reading is fundamental...or not when you got righteous indignation going. Whats with you guys?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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So I will bite on this part. Who cares that Giuliani said it? Ever since he tried to run for President he has turned into a caricature of himself.

Wickham: My family served, Giuliani did not

I'll repeat for you. Again.

It matters because it came from Rudy Giuliani, not some backwoods conspiracy nutjob.

For example, if someone like Howard Dean 10 years ago questioned Bush's motives for the Iraq War, that was legitimate. Some 21 year old, anti war college kid claiming 9/11 was an inside job and Bush murdered 3000 Americans...not legitimate.
 

RDU Irish

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Love the sinner, hate the sin. Obama is just being a true Christian by calling nothing but sin to the table as he says he loves the sinner.

Now please excuse me as I try to dislodge my tongue from my cheek.
 

EddytoNow

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I'll repeat for you. Again.

It matters because it came from Rudy Giuliani, not some backwoods conspiracy nutjob.

For example, if someone like Howard Dean 10 years ago questioned Bush's motives for the Iraq War, that was legitimate. Some 21 year old, anti war college kid claiming 9/11 was an inside job and Bush murdered 3000 Americans...not legitimate.

Rudy has become a conspiracy nutjob, maybe not backwoods but certainly a nutjob. Actually, without substantial evidence to back up the claim, neither Dean's claims nor the college anti-war kid's would be legitimate. Just repeating something over and over doesn't make it so. Although a standard method of politics these days is to keep throwing dirt and hope some of it sticks. It doesn't matter whether there is any truth to the accusation, or not. As Rudy becomes less and less relevant, he tries to remain in the spotlight by flinging dirt. In the process, he has just tarnished his own image.

The whole approach of the Conservatives since Obama was elected has been to attack him personally and to attack everything he tries to accomplish. Just criticize everything. Offer no solutions or plans of your own, Just tear down the man and everything he attempts to do. Of course, Conservatives don't provide details of what they really have in mind. That might scare off the moderate electorate, and neither side can win a national election without the support of the moderates.
 

IRISHDODGER

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Rudy has become a conspiracy nutjob, maybe not backwoods but certainly a nutjob. Actually, without substantial evidence to back up the claim, neither Dean's claims nor the college anti-war kid's would be legitimate. Just repeating something over and over doesn't make it so. Although a standard method of politics these days is to keep throwing dirt and hope some of it sticks. It doesn't matter whether there is any truth to the accusation, or not. As Rudy becomes less and less relevant, he tries to remain in the spotlight by flinging dirt. In the process, he has just tarnished his own image.

The whole approach of the Conservatives since Obama was elected has been to attack him personally and to attack everything he tries to accomplish. Just criticize everything. Offer no solutions or plans of your own, Just tear down the man and everything he attempts to do. Of course, Conservatives don't provide details of what they really have in mind. That might scare off the moderate electorate, and neither side can win a national election without the support of the moderates.

If he's a conspiracy nutjob as you say, then I hope you start throwing similar stones from your glass house at the likes of Nancy Pelosi (a sitting US Congresswoman), Gov Jerry Browne, Gov Cuomo, former Gov Jesse Ventura....the list goes on. And some of these people currently occupy positions of power to affect America.
 

EddytoNow

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If he's a conspiracy nutjob as you say, then I hope you start throwing similar stones from your glass house at the likes of Nancy Pelosi (a sitting US Congresswoman), Gov Jerry Browne, Gov Cuomo, former Gov Jesse Ventura....the list goes on. And some of these people currently occupy positions of power to affect America.

You won't find me defending their actions or their words. Pelosi, Browne, and Cuomo are partisan hacks. But even so, I don't remember them questioning the patriotism of a sitting Republican president. Policies? Yes. Agenda? Yes. Patriotism? No.

Rudy has questioned a sitting president's patriotism. By questioning Obama's patriotism with no evidence to back it up, he has lowered himself to the level of the talking heads who spout their vitriol on the TV and the radio. He has put himself in the same group as Jesse Ventura and Bill Maher on the left and Ted Cruz and Sarah Palin on the right. Not very good company for a man once regarded as one of America's finest mayors.

Rudy has been spending too much time with the likes of Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh. He offers no solutions, just personal attacks. If he were serious about extolling America's virtues, he would offer alternative plans/actions when criticizing those of the president.
 

GoIrish41

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If he's a conspiracy nutjob as you say, then I hope you start throwing similar stones from your glass house at the likes of Nancy Pelosi (a sitting US Congresswoman), Gov Jerry Browne, Gov Cuomo, former Gov Jesse Ventura....the list goes on. And some of these people currently occupy positions of power to affect America.

What conspiracy is Pelosi and Browne involved with?
 

DonnieNarco

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Hmm. That is bad. I can't help but ponder the Mayor's response...over under on how many times he says "don't Know" or "didn't know" during the press conference????

It's too bad that guy got re-elected. I have nothing good to say about Rahm at all.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Rudy has become a conspiracy nutjob, maybe not backwoods but certainly a nutjob. Actually, without substantial evidence to back up the claim, neither Dean's claims nor the college anti-war kid's would be legitimate. Just repeating something over and over doesn't make it so. Although a standard method of politics these days is to keep throwing dirt and hope some of it sticks. It doesn't matter whether there is any truth to the accusation, or not. As Rudy becomes less and less relevant, he tries to remain in the spotlight by flinging dirt. In the process, he has just tarnished his own image.

The whole approach of the Conservatives since Obama was elected has been to attack him personally and to attack everything he tries to accomplish. Just criticize everything. Offer no solutions or plans of your own, Just tear down the man and everything he attempts to do. Of course, Conservatives don't provide details of what they really have in mind. That might scare off the moderate electorate, and neither side can win a national election without the support of the moderates.

If he weren't relevant, no one would be talking about this. People would laugh, brush it off, and it would have no legs. It does.

As a side note, it's fun to watch liberals' heads explode over outspoken conservatives who hold no public office and have no influence on our government (Rudy might have beaten out Sarah Palin for the #1 spot).
 

GoIrish41

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If he weren't relevant, no one would be talking about this. People would laugh, brush it off, and it would have no legs. It does.

As a side note, it's fun to watch liberals' heads explode over outspoken conservatives who hold no public office and have no influence on our government (Rudy might have beaten out Sarah Palin for the #1 spot).

His comments are relavant in the same way that The Who was relavant when they performed at the Super Bowl a few years back. They got the gig because they were once relavant and its was a curiosity to see 70 somethings performing on stage, but it didn't cause anyone to run out and buy their albums. It is sad that Rudy doesn't realize that he is a has-been. People talk about him in the same unflattering way that they talked about Roger Daltry and Pete Townshend after that dreadful performance. Suggesting that Rudy supplanted Sarah Palin as the biggest douche does not make him any more relavant ... it just contributes to his status as a mean old man desperate to rekindle his relavance, and failing to do so. Liberals are giddy that Rudy made his dumb comments, because they can attach his words to the entire party as yet another example of how they are mean spiirited and prefer personal attacks to anything of substance.
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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His comments are relavant in the same way that The Who was relavant when they performed at the Super Bowl a few years back. They got the gig because they were once relavant and its was a curiosity to see 70 somethings performing on stage, but it didn't cause anyone to run out and buy their albums. It is sad that Rudy doesn't realize that he is a has-been. People talk about him in the same unflattering way that they talked about Roger Daltry and Pete Townshend after that dreadful performance. Suggesting that Rudy supplanted Sarah Palin as the biggest douche does not make him any more relavant ... it just contributes to his status as a mean old man desperate to rekindle his relavance, and failing to do so. Liberals are giddy that Rudy made his dumb comments, because they can attach his words to the entire party as yet another example of how they are mean spiirited and prefer personal attacks to anything of substance.

So wrong on so much:

1) Rudy didn't say this to promote himself. He said it at a Republican fundraiser. It's not like he called a press conference to question whether Obama loves America.

2) He's Rudy Giuliani. He was NY's mayor when 9/11 happened. He'll never be irrelevant.

3) Everything in politics is personal and mean spirited. Get over it. You can giggle all you want, but a lot of people's heads are on fire because someone had the audacity to ask the question. Now it's out there. Good.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Federalist's David Harsanyi published an article titled "Here are the 'science" questions reporters should ask politicians":

The governor of Wisconsin was on a trade mission to the United Kingdom. So, naturally, a reporter asked him whether he believed that Moses had ridden atop a Tyrannosaurus Rex to receive the Ten Commandments.

I mean, that’s the point of asking “do you believe in evolution?,” right? Because, surely, the questioner isn’t interested in Scott Walker’s feelings on the successive generational changes in biological populations. And surely, no one really cares what Scott Walker thinks about genetic drift.

“For me, I’m going to punt on that one as well,” Walker responded. “That’s a question a politician shouldn’t be involved in one way or another. So, I’m going to leave that up to you.” In the real world that answer would suffice. In the political world, it prompts thousands of twitter accounts to erupt in contrived scorn.

As useless and distasteful I find these gotcha questions, I would concede that it wouldn’t hurt for GOP candidates to have some succinct answers that reconcile their faith and science. Me? I’d be happy to vote for a proselytizing creationist, if that candidate believed in basic economics and individual liberty.

The real problem is that these episodes feed the bogus notion that Democrats are less prone to ignore settled science than Republicans. And the same journalists who fixate on “science” that makes the faithful look like slack-jawed yokels almost inevitably ignore science that has genuine moral and policy implications.

So in other words, any science that isn’t “climate change.”

And since we’re on the topic, I’d love for informed science-loving liberals to be asked questions such as:

What is evolution?

How many of candidates or journalists could answer this question with any useful specificity? (My colleague Sean Davis has already exposed how some of the pundits who unconditionally “believe in evolution” know very little about it.) This is because “do you believe in evolution” is an inane question. Do I believe in natural selection? Or do I obediently accept every macroevolutionary theory that’s ever been thrown my way?

For me, it’s plausible to believe that slug-like creatures emerged from primordial slime and after millions of fortuitous accidents over hundreds of millions of years emerged as politicians. Most people, though, disagree. According to 2012 Gallup poll, along with plenty of Republicans, 41 percent of Democrats believe God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years. So, around the same number of liberals that believe there’s something to astrology. What are the views of Democratic candidates?

If the evolution question is too theoretical, journalists can bring it back to something a bit more straightforward:

Does human life begin at conception?

If liberals believe in evolution, why do they struggle with basic biology? When Barack Obama was asked when babies become human beings, he punted. He alleged that this fundamental biological question was above his “paygrade.” Perhaps he doesn’t know that a human life begins when a father’s sperm fertilizes a mother’s egg? Or perhaps, much like Walker, Obama felt that a simple “yes” or “no” answer would not give the appropriate context to a question that brings up a number of complicated philosophical issues. Some people are granted that sort of space. Other are not.

Then again, journalists can narrow it down a bit.

Is a 20-week-old unborn child a human being?

On occasion, a social conservative will find himself or herself in a room with a liberal politician and ask a straightforward science-based question. Maryland Democrat Steny Hoyer says that middle-school level biology “is not a real issue.” When Nancy Pelosi was asked if “an unborn child 20 weeks into pregnancy was a human being?” she also punted. Maybe Pelosi believes that human existence starts at 40 weeks? 50 weeks? The right answer would make some people uncomfortable.

There are plenty of other less complex questions to ask.

Do you believe there are too many people on Earth?

The mainstreamed anti-humanist beliefs of Malthusians now dominate left-wing environmentalism and thus Democratic Party politics. Sometimes subtly, sometimes explicitly, we talk about people like parasites. How many times does population-bomb quackery have to be debunked for science-loving Democrats to treat it with the contempt it deserves? Unlike discussion about the validity of evolution, some ideas hold serious policy implications for the rest of us. This is one of them.

Is nuclear power the safest energy in the world?

According to the American Association for the Advancement of Science, around 70 percent of scientists support nuclear power development because it is. Yet large number of liberals oppose and stand in the way of science.

Do you believe GMOs are safe?

According to scientific consensus they are. Polls show that liberals are more inclined to believe this incredible technological advancement – one, that in some form or another has been with us almost since the start – is unsafe. Since the hoi polloi take their cues from political leadership, surely it’s worth ferreting out what potential presidential candidates think about scientific consensus. Or, at least as important as a symposium on speciation.

Do your chromosomes have anything to do with determining sex? What role do they play in a person’s gender, if any?

I am perfectly happy to refer to people by any name they prefer and, to whatever extent I can, treat them with respect. But science tells me this question is settled by the XX/XY sex-determination system. Someone should ask leading Democrats candidates – perhaps at a LGBT event – if they believe in science, or if they believe science permits humans to self-select.

We can go on.

Do you believe carbon dioxide is detrimental to human existence?

Do you believe a slight variation in the climate over a century is unique to contemporary times?

What was the average surface temperature of the earth last year?

Is certain birth control correlated with brain cancer?

What is a stem cell, and what are the differences between adult and embryonic stem cells?


And a bonus.

Do you ever question settled science?

If the answer is no, you’re doing it wrong. Doctors are allowed to question whether cholesterol is a “nutrient of concern.” Scientists can wonder if we’ve settled on Big Bang. That’s just this week. And one of the reasons journalists are under the impression that only one group rejects scientific consensus is because they don’t bother asking the right questions.
 

GoIrish41

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So wrong on so much:

1) Rudy didn't say this to promote himself. He said it at a Republican fundraiser. It's not like he called a press conference to question whether Obama loves America.

2) He's Rudy Giuliani. He was NY's mayor when 9/11 happened. He'll never be irrelevant.

3) Everything in politics is personal and mean spirited. Get over it. You can giggle all you want, but a lot of people's heads are on fire because someone had the audacity to ask the question. Now it's out there. Good.

1. You are naive if you do not believe that Rudy was trying to get attention. He has spent the last several years on the lecture circuit and knows that saying provacative things gets your name more heavily circulated ... especially if you are a has-been.

2. Being the mayor of NY when 9/11 happened does not make Rudy an expert on foreign policy and it certainly does not qualify him to question anyone else's patriotism or motives. In the decade and a half since 9/11, Rudy has slowly traveled toward obscurity. He is attempting to turn back the clock on his notiriety by making provacative statements. Even when it is Obama who the GOP feverishly like to beat on in the media, it is considered bad form to question someone's love for country. Most in the GOP have backed away from his dumb comments about the President. When people make such statements, they become irrelevant.

3. You might provide some examples of whose "heads are on fire." Most people I've heard have pointed out how much of a douche his is and moved along. The "question" that is "out there" has no legs. The only reason people are talking about it is because it was so far out of bounds. It is an absolute negative for Rudy and anyone else who believes that it opens a door to debate about Obama's patriotism.
 
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