Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

wizards8507

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On a somewhat related note to those points above, my father is president of a medical coalition of doctors and is one of their representatives that meet with regional hospitals and state legislators in Ohio. The state is getting pressure from DC to nip "cash" and "no Medicaid" doctors trend in the bud. The % of doctors not accepting Medicaid or cash only is rapidly accelerating in the face of Obamacare rate adjustments. Over 30% of primary care doctors have completely shut their door to Medicaid patients and that number is expected to grow to over 50% by 2020. In a response, Washington is wanting the state to mandate that a doctor take a certain % of Medicaid patients or risk getting their license revoked. He is told this isn't just an Ohio thing either and that "dozens" of states are looking into similar action.
More simply: Washington is trying to establish, in effect, a "maximum wage" for physicians. You MUST see X% Medicaid patients and you have no say in how much you're paid for services rendered.

Call me crazy but I want doctors to make truckloads of money for what they do, ensuring that the labor market for physicians remains the most competitive there is and only the best and the brightest make it through to treat us when we're sick.
 

Ndaccountant

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More simply: Washington is trying to establish, in effect, a "maximum wage" for physicians. You MUST see X% Medicaid patients and you have no say in how much you're paid for services rendered.

Call me crazy but I want doctors to make truckloads of money for what they do, ensuring that the labor market for physicians remains the most competitive there is and only the best and the brightest make it through to treat us when we're sick.

Exactly.

My question to him was "are doctors employed by their practice or by the state?" and there is a clear trend as to where this is heading.
 

pkt77242

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There are too many problems with the US health care system to list them all, but two of the most important ones are cost and coverage.

On coverage - There are two things going on in this space....actual coverage and differences in coverage. In a single payer, everyone obviously has coverage. But that doesn't mean they are equal. Without going into a long dissertation on this, I believe our system would look similar to England if we would go single payer. In their system, over 2/3rds of people earning more than $75K a year purchase private insurance. In Sweden, the number of people carrying private insurance has increased 5X in the last decade (this and the previous statement are according to Stanford's Hoover Institution). So, I think we would still have a clear difference in the type of coverage people receive based on their income. (BTW, this has become a bigger issue in the US with Obamacare due to forcing people into Medicaid and shrinking networks in state sponsored plans).

On cost - there is explicit cost and implied cost. I think the explicit cost would show a reduction. But, what would that reduction cost? As mentioned above, level of coverage could be quite different depending on your income. But it doesn't stop there. What types of innovation will be perused or not perused depending on lower reimbursement rates? For example, there is no question Americans pay more for prescription drugs. This does help offset the cost of development since other countries will not pay as much. But it's not like these companies are making Apple level profit margins. On average, major drug manufacturers are making under 17%. Generic drug companies make 5%. So, given the level of risk they take on, I am not sure there is much to gain there without altering R&D. Is that a cost we would want to take action on? Aside from drugs, lower reimbursement rates lead to hospitals looking for cost efficiency. Will the financial payoff be good enough to attract doctors as reimbursement rates fall? What happens to skilled nursing? Will some aspect of health care be done by a robot? Is that something we will want to entertain?

The point is, single payer doesn't end the debate, it changes the starting point (some might say this is progress, but insurance doesn't mean access to good health care). There is no silver bullet to what ales us. How these changes would be absorbed by the public would most likely depend on what type of service you get today. My hunch is that most people would not be happy with the level of service they would get in the future. Now, that doesn't mean they are or are not getting the right service, it just means their perception of the service would be unfavorable and, more importantly for those in DC, politically tough.

On a somewhat related note to those points above, my father is president of a medical coalition of doctors and is one of their representatives that meet with regional hospitals and state legislators in Ohio. The state is getting pressure from DC to nip "cash" and "no Medicaid" doctors trend in the bud. The % of doctors not accepting Medicaid or cash only is rapidly accelerating in the face of Obamacare rate adjustments. Over 30% of primary care doctors have completely shut their door to Medicaid patients and that number is expected to grow to over 50% by 2020. In a response, Washington is wanting the state to mandate that a doctor take a certain % of Medicaid patients or risk getting their license revoked. He is told this isn't just an Ohio thing either and that "dozens" of states are looking into similar action.

As to the top part, I agree that there isn't an easy fix (even a single payer system isn't an easy fix). I also agree that if we went to a single payer system that not everyone would be on it, I always imagined it like Germany's with about 85% of the population on the public system, and about 12% or so on private (the remainder of their population is government employees, and I don't know what insurance they specifically are on).

While I am against doctors being mandated to take medicare/medicaid patients, I do wish that more doctors would be willing to take a small percentage of them as a way of helping an undeserved population. It could be a small percent of patients say 3-5% but it should be voluntary.
 

GoIrish41

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More simply: Washington is trying to establish, in effect, a "maximum wage" for physicians. You MUST see X% Medicaid patients and you have no say in how much you're paid for services rendered.

Call me crazy but I want doctors to make truckloads of money for what they do, ensuring that the labor market for physicians remains the most competitive there is and only the best and the brightest make it through to treat us when we're sick.

I want doctors to become doctors because they have a genuine desire to help people get well and stay well. In my opionion, capitalism and healthcare are incompatible to a large extent. Profit motive is what has crippled healthcare in this country. My experience tells me that doctors who get into medicine because they can make "truckloads of money" set the conditions for out of control costs. We can talk about having the highest quality of care in the world (which does not really appear to be the case), but if people cannot afford to have access to it, what good is it? Winners and losers are a feature of capitalism. Losers in this case suffer needlessly. Give me a doctor who is in it for the humanity of the profession over someone who simply wants to live the high life treating only the people who can afford to support his lifestyle.
 

wizards8507

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I want doctors to become doctors because they have a genuine desire to help people get well and stay well. In my opionion, capitalism and healthcare are incompatible to a large extent. Profit motive is what has crippled healthcare in this country. My experience tells me that doctors who get into medicine because they can make "truckloads of money" set the conditions for out of control costs. We can talk about having the highest quality of care in the world (which does not really appear to be the case), but if people cannot afford to have access to it, what good is it? Winners and losers are a feature of capitalism. Losers in this case suffer needlessly. Give me a doctor who is in it for the humanity of the profession over someone who simply wants to live the high life treating only the people who can afford to support his lifestyle.
The profit motive isn't a system that you pick and choose, it's a description of how human beings are whether you like it or not. We have amazing modern medicine and technology not because people are super nice, but because folks had the opportunity to get filthy rich creating them. If it comes down to a successful heart surgery from a jerk of a Johns Hopkins physician who's in the profession because he likes fancy cars and beach houses or dying on the operating table because my doctor was in the profession 4 teh feeelz of helping humanity, I'll take the high-caliber asshole every time.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I want doctors to become doctors because they have a genuine desire to help people get well and stay well. In my opionion, capitalism and healthcare are incompatible to a large extent. Profit motive is what has crippled healthcare in this country. My experience tells me that doctors who get into medicine because they can make "truckloads of money" set the conditions for out of control costs. We can talk about having the highest quality of care in the world (which does not really appear to be the case), but if people cannot afford to have access to it, what good is it? Winners and losers are a feature of capitalism. Losers in this case suffer needlessly. Give me a doctor who is in it for the humanity of the profession over someone who simply wants to live the high life treating only the people who can afford to support his lifestyle.

That's it? Really? If you or I spend a night in the hospital and take 2 Tylenol that cost $20 on our bill, is it because of the doctor's salary or other factors?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Just because one group fucks it up, doesn't mean that it can't be done right (as all of Europe and Canada are proof).

Here is the projections from 2009 on what a single payer system would have done to the US.



Courtesy of: Research Desk: How much would single-payer cost? - The Washington Post

Also are you going to respond to anything about Cuba since you kept bringing it up?

Still not adding up for you (no pun intended). "One group" didn't fuck up the plan. It wasn't a people problem. It was a math problem.
 

phgreek

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Why is it such a bad example? The federal government is always outsourcing work. Also if it is only efficient because it is outsourced why is Medicare's overhead about 1/2 to 1/3 the amount of the private insurance companies. Shouldn't in that case the private insurance companies have lower overhead? I know that you think government is inefficient but in the case of Medicare you have not proven anything (just that you dislike government).

One idea that I have seen floated around is to have a non-profit insurance company either run a program for the entire country or to do it state by state. It would be a company that gets its funding from businesses (on a per employee basis), individuals would pay monthly premiums, the state and federal government would pay in for older people and the poor. Thus while it would create in a sense almost a single payer system it would keep it one step removed from the government as well.


Here is a good article on the costs of private prisons in Arizona.
Fact Check: Are state prisons cheaper than private prisons?

The main point is here.



So if you control for medical costs (since private prisons get to cherry pick only healthy ones) public prisons save the state about $1640 per inmate per year. That is a lot of money.


OK first of all...what does single payer mean to you? In most cases I've understood it to mean the government replaces insurance companies(although data processing contractors would be around). In that case the profit center used to generate the infrastructure and procedures to create efficiency as well as the impetus (competition) to do so goes away. My earlier point was you are comparing efficiencies when one (medicare) depends on the other (insurance companies) for some of their efficiencies. Then using Medicare's efficiencies to justify a scenario where the service provider goes away. Doesn't make sense to me. You think improvements/investments in efficiency will continue? Really?

Overhead...ah yes the great government shell game. I'd have to see what goes in the soup. I've had the honor of competing against the government before, and they got in trouble for manipulating their own overhead. They tried to say they had a 1.4 multiplier. I seriously did a spit take when I heard that. If the government EVER reports a number less than a 2.6-3.0 multiplier, they are cookin' the books....plain and simple. Now if you'd like to show me the source which identifies and breaks down the overhead numbers, I'd look. But lets assume you are correct that they are lower...why would that be? You need to look at the things that go into overhead...ah, like regulation...the cost of being regulated goes in that category...so do legal costs, and marketing based on real competition. hmm, how much of that stuff does medicare deal with...how about private industry. If you are looking to compare organizations strictly on efficiency, you need to make sure you are getting a real comparison. 1/2 to 1/3 is likely not true when you really look at it apples to apples. But like I said show me the source.

Non-profits ...I've seen good and bad. Because profit is not a motive, I've seen overhead skyrocket. Check Batelle's overhead rates. They do awesome work, but Holy Moses their overhead used to be 2x - 3x greater than any I've ever carried. Its not a bad idea on its face if you control it like a utility in terms of overhead performance.

Thanks for the Articles talking about State Level vs private management in the Prison system, but I don't think it applies to Federal Government. Its an entirely different league of Bureaucracy, visibility, and accountability...that said, AZ did indeed do a suck ass job of detailing what success looks like. When you do that, you will be upsold, and manipulated...no question. I didn't say corporations were above raping people. However, the government needs to not allow themselves to be raped...that comes from competence. I'd say 1640 is certainly money I'd be after. But you need to understand that part of government competence is bulletproof acquisitions. AZ can do better in the acquisition of services, and creating competition. It sounded to me like they went to a car salesmen and told them how much money they had...thats their incompetence, not an analysis of the competitive market place.

Again, you cannot layer complex problems on top of a notoriously unaccountable work force who is often lead by people who have no idea what they are doing, and no competition to force the ship to be righted. We need to fix Federal Civil Service before I'd ever entertain this...its not about not liking government...its about what the I see with my own two eyes, and what I know to be true. You can't spin what I see, and what I've experienced across multiple areas of federal government. I'm not some guy who hates government because they made me pay taxes...I see the problems....they are part of my every day life (less so lately...admittedly). I know what its like to have a contractor help me process invoices quickly, and to have the government reject them numerous times. For example EOY 2014 had one popped 3 times, only to find out 1 rejection was because they had to do something with it to make their metric, the second time was because they did not have updated training on the FAR, the third time was because it was rejected twice, so the person assumed something was wrong...and if I complain? Who cares? Dr's are small businesses too, and 90-120 days out on Invoices can kill them. For me, single payer is a NOOOOOO. Dismiss it as anecdotal...thats fine...I'm just comfortable in my NOOOO based on my own experience at this point.
 
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GoIrish41

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The profit motive isn't a system that you pick and choose, it's a description of how human beings are whether you like it or not. We have amazing modern medicine and technology not because people are super nice, but because folks had the opportunity to get filthy rich creating them. If it comes down to a successful heart surgery from a jerk of a Johns Hopkins physician who's in the profession because he likes fancy cars and beach houses or dying on the operating table because my doctor was in the profession 4 teh feeelz of helping humanity, I'll take the high-caliber asshole every time.

It's not about "feelz of helping people." No matter the profession, people who are in it for the right reasons tend to be better at their jobs than people who are in it for the money. The problem with profit-based medicine is that costs are raised across the board -- even bad doctors benefit from healthcare becoming more expensive for all consumers. There are plenty of inadequate doctors who make a shit-ton of money because all costs have become inflated. They overbook appointments and inconvenience patients to maximize their profits instead of maximizing the care they provide.Why? More patients coming through your doors means more money. Our healthcare system is burdened by the weight of capitalism. Also, the research and development for a whole lot of the amazing modern medicine and technology has it genisis in government laboratories and/or is funded by the government. Through technology transfer agreements, this research and development enters the market where capitalism presides over massive price increases that are passed onto the consumer so that big medicine (many of them not doctors at all) can make a huge profit. In effect, consumers pay twice for the modern healthcare they receive.

That's it? Really? If you or I spend a night in the hospital and take 2 Tylenol that cost $20 on our bill, is it because of the doctor's salary or other factors?

It's part of it, but not all of it. It all ties back to capitalism though.
 
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Ndaccountant

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I want doctors to become doctors because they have a genuine desire to help people get well and stay well. In my opionion, capitalism and healthcare are incompatible to a large extent. Profit motive is what has crippled healthcare in this country. My experience tells me that doctors who get into medicine because they can make "truckloads of money" set the conditions for out of control costs. We can talk about having the highest quality of care in the world (which does not really appear to be the case), but if people cannot afford to have access to it, what good is it? Winners and losers are a feature of capitalism. Losers in this case suffer needlessly. Give me a doctor who is in it for the humanity of the profession over someone who simply wants to live the high life treating only the people who can afford to support his lifestyle.

The problem I have is that people view this as an either or type of thing, but it's not. People can make a really great living and help the same amount of people, if not more, thru other initiatives. For example, if a very highly paid chemical engineer comes up with a fertilizer that increases crop yields in arid environments, s/he has impacted millions of lives and has made life better while still earning large compensation. Medicine provides a more direct way of helping people, but let's not pretend that making money and helping others is an either or proposition.
 

RDU Irish

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If medicine was a more free market, top surgeons could demand top dollar and patients would get insurance because it would mean better care. I don't want doctors to become like lawyers (dime a dozen) but the restricted access to med school, heavy international census and complete control of the health care system have made doctor wages more a function of supply and demand than true value added.

Nurse Practitioners would be allowed to compete with doctors, driving down costs and increasing access. NPs would make more and crappy doctors would be run out of town.

Doctors have created a monopoly for themselves and have gotten fat and lazy in the process. Because of the system they largely created, large systems are taking over, private practice is becoming obsolete and consumers suffer.
 

RDU Irish

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Look at all the idiot doctors in hospital management. My wife's medical director sips coffee all day in meetings while he plays on facebook. He doesn't practice sh!t but he is the guy supposedly responsible for their department. Put his butt in the field practicing and replace him with a properly trained business manager and your quality of care, efficiency and (gasp) profits would go up exponentially. As is, he skates by hiding on committees and in meetings while all the NPs do the work to cover his completely worthless overhead. Dip shit is in it for the money, you bet. But the SYSTEM LETS HIM DO NOTHING. With any level of true profit motive some real accountability would come into play for any high six figure salary.
 

GoIrish41

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The problem I have is that people view this as an either or type of thing, but it's not. People can make a really great living and help the same amount of people, if not more, thru other initiatives. For example, if a very highly paid chemical engineer comes up with a fertilizer that increases crop yields in arid environments, s/he has impacted millions of lives and has made life better while still earning large compensation. Medicine provides a more direct way of helping people, but let's not pretend that making money and helping others is an either or proposition.

My responses were to this post ...

Call me crazy but I want doctors to make truckloads of money for what they do, ensuring that the labor market for physicians remains the most competitive there is and only the best and the brightest make it through to treat us when we're sick.

... I don't completely disagree with your statement, NdA, but every dollar of profit made in healthcare is a dollar that consumers pay for unproductive services. Costs have historically be "controlled" through things that end up costing consumers more (see, skyrocketing healthcare costs) instead of decreases in compensation. Bad doctors are happy to go along for the ride as costs continue to grow, even though they are not necessarily doing anything to deserve increased compensation. Like anything else in life, there are few absolutes. There are certainly doctors who make a large salary who also have genuine concern for patient care. No dispute there. But, there are also many who enter the healthcare profession because of the potential to become wealthy. If I had to make an important medical decision about who would provide care, I would not choose a person who just saw me as a means to growing his bank account. I want someone who is in the field because he wants to help. Higher prices do not automatically translate into better care. But, they always seem to translate into higher profits for healthcare workers and executives.
 

phgreek

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It's not about "feelz of helping people." No matter the profession, people who are in it for the right reasons tend to be better at their jobs than people who are in it for the money. The problem with profit-based medicine is that costs are raised across the board -- even bad doctors benefit from healthcare becoming more expensive for all consumers. There are plenty of inadequate doctors who make a shit-ton of money because all costs have become inflated. They overbook appointments and inconvenience patients to maximize their profits instead of maximizing the care they provide.Why? More patients coming through your doors means more money. Our healthcare system is burdened by the weight of capitalism. Also, the research and development for a whole lot of the amazing modern medicine and technology has it genisis in government laboratories and/or is funded by the government. Through technology transfer agreements, this research and development enters the market where capitalism presides over massive price increases that are passed onto the consumer so that big medicine (many of them not doctors at all) can make a huge profit. In effect, consumers pay twice for the modern healthcare they receive.



It's part of it, but not all of it. It all ties back to capitalism though.

I'd have to ask more Dr.s their point of view there, but every single one I've met HATES to book the way they do. They know what they need to cover expenses and live, and then model their schedule accordingly. Much of the overbooking comes from low reimbursements. Are there Docs like you say...I'd have to assume so, but most would rather go at a more leisurely pace, and care for patients....if they could.

I agree with the first part of the bolded. The second part depends heavily on HOW the technology is transferred. Those funded with Govt. money tend to want to get paid for what they produce in the IP arena. its not like scientists continually put IP in the public domain for all to see, and then BOOM, the price goes up. They get paid, and then there is huge cost in protecting IP, and then moving from Bench scale to production is hugely expensive. Do I think there is some gouging in there yup...but there are a good number of legitimate costs that big companies need to cover.
 

RDU Irish

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I bet Reggie Ho is a great doctor after watching that ESPN clip on him. He seems motivated by the challenge of medicine more than anything. Not saying he doesn't care about the people he treats but that is probably a very secondary benefit. Lots of surgeons don't care about the people they treat, they care about the challenge their patients present. In maintaining sanity, knowing people will die under your care it is probably healthier not to get too attached.
 

NOLAIrish

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Why is it such a bad example? The federal government is always outsourcing work. Also if it is only efficient because it is outsourced why is Medicare's overhead about 1/2 to 1/3 the amount of the private insurance companies. Shouldn't in that case the private insurance companies have lower overhead? I know that you think government is inefficient but in the case of Medicare you have not proven anything (just that you dislike government).

I'm not going to get into opinions about ACA or Single Payer; just wanted to clarify a few things on this point, because it's been tossed around with increasing regularity over the past few years.

Medicare's overhead is not 1/2 to 1/3 that of private insurers. Its reported admin costs are lower as a percentage of total costs. There are numerous reasons for this; I want to get cover the biggies so we can start to get our arms around what's really going on here (and we can only just start; the actual figures are too intertwined with other parts of the federal budget and private insurance policy decisions to tease out a true comparison):

1) It really is more efficient in some ways. When you have a captive audience, you get certain benefits. Marketing is one that I would expect to come readily to mind. Your concerns about member entry and exit are far more uniform and predictable. Their needs, though complex, are relatively homogeneous. Etc. Anyone who tells you there aren't a number of efficiencies is either uninformed or blinded by an agenda.

2) Private insurance administrative costs are higher as a percentage of total costs because private insurance total costs are lower. This reality is so dramatic it casts a bit of a pallor over the remainder of the pro-Medicare argument. Medicare per-beneficiary admin costs are, in fact, fairly similar to private per-beneficiary admin costs (and were actually somewhat higher last I looked). The reason they are so dramatically different as a percentage of total costs is that the total cost of an average Medicare recipient is dramatically higher than that of the privately insured. We're talking about a population that's elderly and frail compared to the general public. Although we should expect that population to have higher admin costs overall, I don't know of a good reason to expect those admin costs to track strongly with total costs. Medicare would need to spend 3-4 times more administratively than private insurance per-member per-period in order to achieve comparable administrative cost percentages.

3) Much of Medicare's "Admin" does not actually appear in its admin costs. Tax collection and premium deductions are collected by IRS and SSA, respectively, and are not accounted in the reckoning of Medicare's administrative costs, while the equivalent functions in private insurers are absolutely included. Many HHS functions related to Medicare are located in non-CMS offices (or outsourced to private insurer contractors, like the Blues) and are not included in Medicare admin costs. Much of fraud & abuse, actuarial services, legal/litigation, and policy oversight are external to CMS. If you include these, you're probably talking about an admin cost closer to 6-8%. That's actually about in line with large-group plans (again, as a percentage of total costs).

4) Much of private "Admin" does not represent what we'd think of as admin. Care coordination is an administrative cost. Disease management? Admin. Phone-based practitioner availability? Often admin. Wellness programs? Admin. Also, premium taxes paid by insurers count as an admin cost (this is part of the reason large-group plans tend to have far lower admin costs than do small-group or individual plans).

5) There are claims that private insurers have far stronger price controls and fraud & abuse countermeasures, meaning that much of their spending on admin goes to reducing total cost. The basic claim would be that Medicare is simply outsourcing some of its admin cost into its total cost and paying a premium for the privilege. This component of the discussion is heavily politicized, obviously. I'm merely noting it because I think there is probably something there; it's just too entangled with other issues to tease out the actual effect.
 
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phgreek

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I bet Reggie Ho is a great doctor after watching that ESPN clip on him. He seems motivated by the challenge of medicine more than anything. Not saying he doesn't care about the people he treats but that is probably a very secondary benefit. Lots of surgeons don't care about the people they treat, they care about the challenge their patients present. In maintaining sanity, knowing people will die under your care it is probably healthier not to get too attached.

I never want a surgeon over me who "cares". I want the dude who is a "Master Mechanic"...just like Ho.
 

RDU Irish

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I'd have to ask more Dr.s their point of view there, but every single one I've met HATES to book the way they do. They know what they need to cover expenses and live, and then model their schedule accordingly. Much of the overbooking comes from low reimbursements. Are there Docs like you say...I'd have to assume so, but most would rather go at a more leisurely pace, and care for patients....if they could.

I agree with the first part of the bolded. The second part depends heavily on HOW the technology is transferred. Those funded with Govt. money tend to want to get paid for what they produce in the IP arena. its not like scientists continually put IP in the public domain for all to see, and then BOOM, the price goes up. They get paid, and then there is huge cost in protecting IP, and then moving from Bench scale to production is hugely expensive. Do I think there is some gouging in there yup...but there are a good number of legitimate costs that big companies need to cover.

Yeah, those are the ones that get into administration. Then they can make as much doing less and hire a bunch of foreigners and NPs to slog it out in the ER, clinics and other high volume areas.

I have to schedule 2 months out to get into my internal medicine guy. I go to CVS quick clinic instead if I need anything. Walk right in. How is this for-profit entity able to provide such a better service for 90% of my needs than the private practice MD group? Don't say on the scripts, I pay $10 for the generic nose spray, doesn't even hit co-pay levels. $80 to get my scripts refilled for allergy season. Internal medicine guy would charge double that and I would have to wait an hour in his waiting

NPs are plenty profitable at "low reimbursement" rates. Doctors need to see twice as many patients because they cost twice as much. Ask those same doctors if they would take a pay cut for a more leisurely schedule and they will look at you like you have six heads. Do you really need an MD to diagnose an ear infection or allergies? Treat it like the trade school it really is and allow other providers (PAs and NPs) to compete. Watch costs go down to consumers. It will never happen because the lowest comped doctors would not be able to "survive" and med schools would suffer because they would not be able to guarantee six figure jobs for even the worst of their students.
 

ACamp1900

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Is anyone going to waste their time being lied to tonight?
 

phgreek

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I'm not going to get into opinions about ACA or Single Payer; just wanted to clarify a few things on this point, because it's been tossed around with increasing regularity over the past few years.

Medicare's overhead is not 1/2 to 1/3 that of private insurers. Its reported admin costs are lower as a percentage of total costs. There are numerous reasons for this; I want to get cover the biggies so we can start to get our arms around what's really going on here (and we can only just start; the actual figures are too intertwined with other parts of the federal budget and private insurance policy decisions to tease out a true comparison):

1) It really is more efficient in some ways. When you have a captive audience, you get certain benefits. Marketing is one that I would expect to come readily to mind. Your concerns about member entry and exit are far more uniform and predictable. Their needs, though complex, are relatively homogeneous. Etc. Anyone who tells you there aren't a number of efficiencies is either uninformed or blinded by an agenda.

2) Private insurance administrative costs are higher as a percentage of total costs because private insurance total costs are lower. This reality is so dramatic it casts a bit of a pallor over the remainder of the pro-Medicare argument. Medicare per-beneficiary admin costs are, in fact, fairly similar to private per-beneficiary admin costs (and were actually somewhat higher last I looked). The reason they are so dramatically different as a percentage of total costs is that the total cost of an average Medicare recipient is dramatically higher than that of the privately insured. We're talking about a population that's elderly and frail compared to the general public. Although we should expect that population to have higher admin costs overall, I don't know of a good reason to expect those admin costs to track strongly with total costs. Medicare would need to spend 3-4 times more administratively than private insurance per-member per-period in order to achieve comparable administrative cost percentages.

agree...

3) Much of Medicare's "Admin" does not actually appear in its admin costs. Tax collection and premium deductions are collected by IRS and SSA, respectively, and are not accounted in the reckoning of Medicare's administrative costs, while the equivalent functions in private insurers are absolutely included. Many HHS functions related to Medicare are located in non-CMS offices (or outsourced to private insurer contractors, like the Blues) and are not included in Medicare admin costs. Much of fraud & abuse, actuarial services, legal/litigation, and policy oversight are external to CMS. If you include these, you're probably talking about an admin cost closer to 6-8%. That's actually about in line with large-group plans (again, as a percentage of total costs).

suspected, but did not know where those costs went...good data

4) Much of private "Admin" does not represent what we'd think of as admin. Care coordination is an administrative cost. Disease management? Admin. Phone-based practitioner availability? Often admin. Wellness programs? Admin. Also, premium taxes paid by insurers count as an admin cost (this is part of the reason large-group plans tend to have far lower admin costs than do small-group or individual plans).


5) There are claims that private insurers have far stronger price controls and fraud & abuse countermeasures, meaning that much of their spending on admin goes to reducing total cost. The basic claim would be that Medicare is simply outsourcing some of its admin cost into its total cost and paying a premium for the privilege. This component of the discussion is heavily politicized, obviously. I'm merely noting it because I think there is probably something there; it's just too entangled with other issues to tease out the actual effect.

Hell yea...what he said....

alot of apparent understanding in here, thanks.
 

Ndaccountant

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My responses were to this post ...



... I don't completely disagree with your statement, NdA, but every dollar of profit made in healthcare is a dollar that consumers pay for unproductive services. Costs have historically be "controlled" through things that end up costing consumers more (see, skyrocketing healthcare costs) instead of decreases in compensation. Bad doctors are happy to go along for the ride as costs continue to grow, even though they are not necessarily doing anything to deserve increased compensation. Like anything else in life, there are few absolutes. There are certainly doctors who make a large salary who also have genuine concern for patient care. No dispute there. But, there are also many who enter the healthcare profession because of the potential to become wealthy. If I had to make an important medical decision about who would provide care, I would not choose a person who just saw me as a means to growing his bank account. I want someone who is in the field because he wants to help. Higher prices do not automatically translate into better care. But, they always seem to translate into higher profits for healthcare workers and executives.

Let me preface this by saying my family (both in-laws and immediate) are heavily involved in medicine. We have three MD's, one dentist, two CRNA's, a RN and one NP.

When they decided to go into medicine, they did so for two basic reasons. One was financial security and the other was helping people. All but two have been out of school for more than 5 years and they will all tell you that "helping people" is the biggest disappointment in the profession. Most people do not want to be helped. They want to fix the short term problem with some drug or other quick fix but fail to make the fundamental changes needed to avoid said problem in the future. It's frustrating to deal with and makes them much less "rosey" about the profession than when they started.
 

phgreek

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Yeah, those are the ones that get into administration. Then they can make as much doing less and hire a bunch of foreigners and NPs to slog it out in the ER, clinics and other high volume areas.

I have to schedule 2 months out to get into my internal medicine guy. I go to CVS quick clinic instead if I need anything. Walk right in. How is this for-profit entity able to provide such a better service for 90% of my needs than the private practice MD group? Don't say on the scripts, I pay $10 for the generic nose spray, doesn't even hit co-pay levels. $80 to get my scripts refilled for allergy season. Internal medicine guy would charge double that and I would have to wait an hour in his waiting

NPs are plenty profitable at "low reimbursement" rates. Doctors need to see twice as many patients because they cost twice as much. Ask those same doctors if they would take a pay cut for a more leisurely schedule and they will look at you like you have six heads. Do you really need an MD to diagnose an ear infection or allergies? Treat it like the trade school it really is and allow other providers (PAs and NPs) to compete. Watch costs go down to consumers. It will never happen because the lowest comped doctors would not be able to "survive" and med schools would suffer because they would not be able to guarantee six figure jobs for even the worst of their students.

Or you could look at it like that...

The folks with MD are generally the ones that are really good at diagnosis, and it might save your ass someday...

The Pas are ok.....if I know what is wrong and I need someone to see me and give me antibiotics, or stuff cotton up my nose, or issue me cruthes when I get too close pitching batting practice, cool. Outside that, I'm not there yet.
 

phgreek

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Is anyone going to waste their time being lied to tonight?

Depends. He'll lie about the economy, war, and foreign policy, ACA...in general SITUATIONS. But I don't think he ever lies about his INTENTIONS.

He telegraphs his shots, and the GOP stands there and groans. Should have these things in California so he at least has to wear a condom...
 

pkt77242

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I'm not going to get into opinions about ACA or Single Payer; just wanted to clarify a few things on this point, because it's been tossed around with increasing regularity over the past few years.

Medicare's overhead is not 1/2 to 1/3 that of private insurers. Its reported admin costs are lower as a percentage of total costs. There are numerous reasons for this; I want to get cover the biggies so we can start to get our arms around what's really going on here (and we can only just start; the actual figures are too intertwined with other parts of the federal budget and private insurance policy decisions to tease out a true comparison):

1) It really is more efficient in some ways. When you have a captive audience, you get certain benefits. Marketing is one that I would expect to come readily to mind. Your concerns about member entry and exit are far more uniform and predictable. Their needs, though complex, are relatively homogeneous. Etc. Anyone who tells you there aren't a number of efficiencies is either uninformed or blinded by an agenda.

2) Private insurance administrative costs are higher as a percentage of total costs because private insurance total costs are lower. This reality is so dramatic it casts a bit of a pallor over the remainder of the pro-Medicare argument. Medicare per-beneficiary admin costs are, in fact, fairly similar to private per-beneficiary admin costs (and were actually somewhat higher last I looked). The reason they are so dramatically different as a percentage of total costs is that the total cost of an average Medicare recipient is dramatically higher than that of the privately insured. We're talking about a population that's elderly and frail compared to the general public. Although we should expect that population to have higher admin costs overall, I don't know of a good reason to expect those admin costs to track strongly with total costs. Medicare would need to spend 3-4 times more administratively than private insurance per-member per-period in order to achieve comparable administrative cost percentages.

3) Much of Medicare's "Admin" does not actually appear in its admin costs. Tax collection and premium deductions are collected by IRS and SSA, respectively, and are not accounted in the reckoning of Medicare's administrative costs, while the equivalent functions in private insurers are absolutely included. Many HHS functions related to Medicare are located in non-CMS offices (or outsourced to private insurer contractors, like the Blues) and are not included in Medicare admin costs. Much of fraud & abuse, actuarial services, legal/litigation, and policy oversight are external to CMS. If you include these, you're probably talking about an admin cost closer to 6-8%. That's actually about in line with large-group plans (again, as a percentage of total costs).

4) Much of private "Admin" does not represent what we'd think of as admin. Care coordination is an administrative cost. Disease management? Admin. Phone-based practitioner availability? Often admin. Wellness programs? Admin. Also, premium taxes paid by insurers count as an admin cost (this is part of the reason large-group plans tend to have far lower admin costs than do small-group or individual plans).

5) There are claims that private insurers have far stronger price controls and fraud & abuse countermeasures, meaning that much of their spending on admin goes to reducing total cost. The basic claim would be that Medicare is simply outsourcing some of its admin cost into its total cost and paying a premium for the privilege. This component of the discussion is heavily politicized, obviously. I'm merely noting it because I think there is probably something there; it's just too entangled with other issues to tease out the actual effect.

You bring up many good points as well as some great information.
1. Definitely true that this is a big advantage of a single payer system. That and that there is no "profit" which is typically somewhere along the lines of 6-8% of revenue. This definitely helps keeps costs down.

2. True. No doubt about it. I will also point out as a slight counter point that medicare also has to deal with more claims per individual which leads to a higher dollar cost for claims management (not directly proportional).

3. True but it is another great quality of the single payer system, though to be fair since most people (55% or so) get their coverage through their employer, the insurance companies aren't paying significantly for premium collection on a large portion of their customer base.

4. and 5. You bring up many good points, about legitimate overhead expenses for healthcare companies. There is no doubt that they have expenses and that some are needed. I completely agree that Medicare could and should do a better job of detecting and stopping fraud.
 

NOLAIrish

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You bring up many good points as well as some great information.
1. Definitely true that this is a big advantage of a single payer system. That and that there is no "profit" which is typically somewhere along the lines of 6-8% of revenue. This definitely helps keeps costs down.

I don't know of any insurers who are reporting as high as an 8% profit margin. Some of the big boys were around 4-6% last year. The industry was at 0.9% at the mid-year, which is the worst it's done in as long as I can remember (it's generally closer to 2-3%). Here's the NAIC mid-year snapshot: NAIC.

I think a lot of that, coincidentally, is down to a massive spike in admin costs as insurers deal with some of the real changes that hit this year, both from ACA (big enrollment spike; many significant elements began to kick in in 2014 or will kick in in 2015 and require staffing to prepare) and other sources (especially Medicaid). I would expect that to settle in over the next few years. There will also be the factor of the risk corridors kicking in this year. That will keep margins stable for the next 3 years. Whether the corridors are a positive or a negative is a separate topic.

There's also a secondary issue when talking about government's lack of a profit motive. Of course they don't need to do more than balance the budget (and at the federal level, balance the budget...ish), but they also like to a) run a surplus to shift excess funding into vote-winning projects; and b) pare down larger programs to ensure a surplus or to avoid cutting smaller, more immediately sensitive programs in a deficit year. I don't know where that leaves you, but it's a factor that I think should be considered.

2. True. No doubt about it. I will also point out as a slight counter point that medicare also has to deal with more claims per individual which leads to a higher dollar cost for claims management (not directly proportional).

I agree with that statement. That's the meat of what I was trying to get at with the second-to-last sentence there. More claims, more coverage, more providers, more provider types, more games to play with billing. Just more. Their admin undoubtedly should be somewhat higher.

3. True but it is another great quality of the single payer system, though to be fair since most people (55% or so) get their coverage through their employer, the insurance companies aren't paying significantly for premium collection on a large portion of their customer base.

Employer-provided insurance has its own special admin costs associated with it, but they are generally significantly lower than those for small-group and individual lines. The overarching issue here is simply that the admin cost comparison between public and private providers isn't really being made apples to apples (even crediting efficiencies gained by using existing governmental collection/admin mechanisms).

4. and 5. You bring up many good points, about legitimate overhead expenses for healthcare companies. There is no doubt that they have expenses and that some are needed. I completely agree that Medicare could and should do a better job of detecting and stopping fraud.

I'll admit, while I think the fraud charge is accurate (i.e. privates do a better job with F&A), I'm skeptical that it's as big as folks claim. It's one of those things that's: a) more-or-less self-evidently true; b) unknowable in actual magnitude; and c) neatly contrary to the narrative that Medicare is The Solution to Our Health Care Cost Crisis. That's a perfect recipe for opponents to pump it up as a fatal flaw of the program. I think it's a flaw, but I don't think it's incredibly worse in Medicare than in private insurance. The market-based vs. government-managed price control argument has always hooked me a bit more.
 

pkt77242

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Bobby Jindal slams 'no-go zones,' pushes 'assimilation' - CNN.com
It would be nice if Jindal could at least give an example.

If this is/was real it needs to be talked about, unfortunately no one seems able to give an example of it, which just makes them look like they are fear mongering.

Though my favorite quote from the article is Dave Cameron in response to the Fox News commentator talking about "No-go Zones".
"When I heard this, frankly, I choked on my porridge and I thought it must be April Fools Day. This guy is clearly a complete idiot," he said.
 
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Redbar

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Bobby Jindal slams 'no-go zones,' pushes 'assimilation' - CNN.com
It would be nice if Jindal could at least give an example.

If this is/was real it needs to be talked about, unfortunately no one seems able to give an example of it, which just makes them look like they are fear mongering.

Though my favorite quote from the article is Dave Cameron in response to the Fox News commentator talking about "No-go Zones".

Bobby Jindal is an empty suit. He will say, do, and become whatever his handlers tell him will get him to a higher office. He is ambitious though.
 
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