Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

NDFan4Life

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Interesting development in the Keystone XL pipeline debate:

State Department report finds no major climate impact from Keystone XL pipeline
By Juliet Eilperin and Steven Mufson, Updated: Friday, January 31, 3:01 PM

State Department officials said they were still weighing whether or not to reject the proposed Keystone XL pipeline even after Friday’s release of a final environmental assessment that concluded the project’s construction would not significantly alter global greenhouse gas emissions.

“Approval or denial of any one crude oil transport project, including the proposed Project, remains unlikely to significantly impact the rate of extraction in the oil sands, or the continued demand for heavy crude oil at refineries in the United States,” the new environmental report said.



The multi-billion dollar pipeline, which would transport heavy crude from oil sands from Canada’s Alberta province into the heart of the U.S. pipeline network, has become the focus of intense controversy. Foes say it will contribute to climate change and supporters say it will secure U.S. oil supplies from a friendly neighbor and create U.S. construction jobs.

The release of the long-awaited Final Environmental Impact Statement will trigger an avalanche of lobbying efforts aimed at Secretary of State John Kerry, who has made climate change a central focus of his career and will now begin deliberating on the pipeline decision.

The decision remains politically fraught for Democrats. Environmental activists fiercely oppose it, on the grounds that it could leak and spill oil in sensitive areas, accelerate development of the greenhouse gas-intensive oil sands in Alberta, and increase America’s dependence on fossil fuels.

The State Department’s report includes 11 volumes of analysis on how the proposed pipeline would affect heavy crude extraction in Canada’s oil sands, and reaches the same conclusion as its draft report did in March: no single infrastructure project will alter the course of oil development in Alberta.

But a senior State Department official, who asked not to be identified in order to discuss the report’s findings in advance of its release, said Friday the study “is only one factor that comes into the consideration” of whether to give TransCanada, a Calgary-based energy giant, a permit to build the pipeline.

“It does not answer the broader question about how a decision on this potential pipeline fits in with broader national and international efforts to address climate change and climate priorities or other questions of foreign policy or energy security,” the official said.

The official added that while the report notes “the approval or denial or any single project is unlikely to significantly affect the rate of extraction of the oil in the oil sands or the refining of heavy crude on the U.S. gulf coast,” it was based on “a set of assumptions” that could change over time. Those assumptions included pipeline capacity, the price of oil and the costs of both transportation and oil sands development.

Oil industry officials welcomed the fact that the agency had affirmed the idea the pipeline decision did not have a major climate impact. In June, President Obama said he would only sign off on the proposal if it “does not significantly exacerbate the climate problem.”

“Five years, five federal reviews, dozens of public meetings, over a million comments and one conclusion ─ the Keystone XL pipeline is safe for the environment,” American Petroleum Institute president Jack Gerard said in a statement. “This final review puts to rest any credible concerns about the pipeline’s potential negative impact on the environment. This long awaited project should now be swiftly approved.”

“Time and time again, State reaches the same conclusion despite the unprecedented and thorough environmental review,” added Cindy Schild, API’s senior manager for oil sands policy. Schild added that there are nine criteria for determining whether a project like this serves the national interest, and that API expected Keystone XL to qualify. “When you look at the nine criteria, it is hard to figure out how they could conclude that it is not in the national interest,” she said.

But in many ways the high-profile decision is just entering a new phase, in which Kerry and his deputies will field both public comments and internal feedback from eight agencies including the Environmental Protection Agency and Defense and Energy Departments. The State Department will open a 30-day comment period on Feb. 5, and the agencies will have 90 days to weigh in. After a decision is issued other agencies have 15 days to object, and if one does, the president must decide whether or not to issue the permit.

The EPA has repeatedly questioned whether the State Department has given sufficient weight to the project’s negative environmental impact. The final environmental impact statement notes that bitumen, the substance that is extracted in Canada and diluted in order to be transported to U.S. refineries, is more difficult to clean up than lighter crude when it spills.

The report also concludes that crude from the oil sands is 17 percent higher in greenhouse gas emissions than the average crude oil used in the U.S., but between 2 and 10 percent higher than the heavy crude it would be replacing at Gulf Coast refineries.

When asked Friday whether the president will directly weigh in on the decision, White House press secretary Jay Carney said, “There’s a long-term process in place to determine whether projects like this are in the national interest.”

“At this point, the process is now at the State Department and we’re going to let that run its course,” Carney added.

The administration has significant flexibility in when it would issue a final national interest determination on the project: the State Department could issue a decision either before the end of the 105-day agency comment period, or long afterwards.

The State Department official said Kerry “doesn’t really have any particular deadline... He’ll need to take the time he needs to take.”

Now, the attention turns to Kerry, whom the official says is “just diving in now” to the process. On Tuesday environmental groups are organizing a “Day of Action” where they plan to flood Kerry's office with phone calls and e-mails.

“To some extent Secretary Kerry has gotten a pass to date,” said Tiernan Sittenfeld, the League of Conservation Voters’ senior vice president for government affairs. “Now that changes. This is a really a pivot point, and this is a real opportunity for him to live up to the climate record he has established through his very accomplished career.”

TransCanada, the company behind Keystone XL, just began transporting heavy crude through the southern leg of the Keystone XL pipeline. But it is still waiting for the State Department to decide whether to issue a permit for the 1,179-mile northern leg that would carry predominantly heavy oil from Canada’s oil sands, cross the border in Montana and run to the small town of Steele City, Neb.

“Regardless of what the EIS says, the Canadians have admitted that the amount of carbon they’re going to be releasing from the tar sands will increase Canada’s total emissions by 38 percent by 2030 instead of reducing emissions when all the science says that’s what we need to do in order to avoid catastrophic climate change,” said Larry Schweiger, president of the National Wildlife Federation.

State Department releases Keystone XL final environmental impact statement - The Washington Post
 

chicago51

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Black Irish

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I am concerned about safety and not spoiling the environment, but the concerns of the environmental lobby about projects like Keystone seem to boil down to "what if there's a spill or accident?" So many of these groups lobby for endless delays or outright cancellation of a project based almost solely on what-ifs. And no amount of regulation or safeguarding seems to satisfy them. The response is a constant "but what if?" Well, if you go by that logic, you should never do anything. You could get killed crossing the street. You could burn your house down if you forget to turn the stove off. You could trip down a flight of stairs and break your neck. If these groups bring legitimate concerns, and solutions to the table, then that's great and needed. But it's frustrating when some of these groups get the ear of decision-makers and their main selling point is the worst possible case scenario imaginable.
 

GoIrish41

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I am concerned about safety and not spoiling the environment, but the concerns of the environmental lobby about projects like Keystone seem to boil down to "what if there's a spill or accident?" So many of these groups lobby for endless delays or outright cancellation of a project based almost solely on what-ifs. And no amount of regulation or safeguarding seems to satisfy them. The response is a constant "but what if?" Well, if you go by that logic, you should never do anything. You could get killed crossing the street. You could burn your house down if you forget to turn the stove off. You could trip down a flight of stairs and break your neck. If these groups bring legitimate concerns, and solutions to the table, then that's great and needed. But it's frustrating when some of these groups get the ear of decision-makers and their main selling point is the worst possible case scenario imaginable.

The "what if there is a spill" question is not one without merit. I'm glad there are people who are raising these concerns because these spills happen more often than people think and usually with bad consequences for the environment. Here is an article on some major spills in the past few years.

Factbox: Recent North American oil pipeline spills | Reuters
 

BobD

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It's not a matter of "if" in regards to pipeline leaks, just "when". Build the damned pipeline, prepare for disaster as best you can and move on with progress. Hopefully someday a modern Einstein will come along with a great alternative and make the pipelines obsolete.
 

BobD

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phgreek

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It's not a matter of "if" in regards to pipeline leaks, just "when". Build the damned pipeline, prepare for disaster as best you can and move on with progress. Hopefully someday a modern Einstein will come along with a great alternative and make the pipelines obsolete.

this is true...just an unhappy reality of containing fluid....

I think there is risk of breach in any pipeline. I think there is that risk compounded by whats under the pipeline which makes it Require a lot of mitigation before you do it.

Upfront design for leak containment, a ton of requirements for testing and maintenance, and an ongoing and active spill response drill....all of this only happens if we have multiple (local, state, federal) and active regulatory involvement.

We'd be dishonest if we did not at least acknowledge the notion that board rooms often trade safety for profit....at some point they will do it one time too many, and we have a "disaster". The biggest risk mitigation we can do is to squeeze out opportunities for apathy regarding safety when this thing is 15 or 30 years old...and that's done through participation of knowledgeable regulators.

I hate who the EPA has become...however, we should still invite regulation when it is done the right way. I am a conservsative...no question. But I think that means, in this case, Do it, but do it right/responsibly...no flowery words... just a robust structure that provides verifiable insight into the status of the pipeline and promotes and rewards safety.
 

phgreek

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Sad stuff.

IMHO we need to figure out a way to make one meal a day at public schools free for ALL children if they want it. Yes there is a cost, but in the large scheme of things it would be miniscule.

Thoughts?

Lunches seized from kids in debt at Salt Lake City elementary | The Salt Lake Tribune

New Jersey school throws away lunch of 10-year-old autistic boy, mother says | Fox News

No such thing as free...I might support it if it were paid for by cutting something else.
 

phgreek

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Agreed, as long as it's on a local level, as everything else in education is designed to be.

yea...I'd like the Fed to get way out of it.

I think a congressional committee could achieve what needs done from a national perspective in terms of education standards, and as for the Department of education going away...that'd pay for ALOT of lunches I suspect...
 

chicago51

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Cut athletics? You monster!

They ought to cut out freshman sports and if necessary JV sports instead of cutting sports. Local park district and non for profit sports programs can easily expand their age levels to absorb those kids so it is not like they wouldn't have a place to play.
 

Black Irish

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They ought to cut out freshman sports and if necessary JV sports instead of cutting sports. Local park district and non for profit sports programs can easily expand their age levels to absorb those kids so it is not like they wouldn't have a place to play.

I was kidding around, but point taken. And you and BobD are still monsters for wanting to cut sports. :eek:grin:
 

connor_in

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/fa6Kv1fOStM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
B

Buster Bluth

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My Econ101 self would play devil's advocate: if there is an incentive to stay home, and companies need to hire people, don't wages increase as a result?
 

IrishJayhawk

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Exactly. Brilliant.

Why the new CBO report on Obamacare is good news - latimes.com

The CBO projects that the act will reduce the supply of labor, not the availability of jobs. There's a big difference. In fact, it suggests that aggregate demand for labor (that is, the number of jobs) will increase, not decrease; but that many workers or would-be workers will be prompted by the ACA to leave the labor force, many of them voluntarily.

As economist Dean Baker points out, this is, in fact, a beneficial effect of the law, and a sign that it will achieve an important goal. It helps "older workers with serious health conditions who are working now because this is the only way to get health insurance. And (one for the family-values crowd) many young mothers who return to work earlier than they would like because they need health insurance. This is a huge plus.
 

connor_in

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Overlooked in yesterday’s CBO report: The outlook on the national debt is bleak « Hot Air Headlines

It may not be good politics to talk about, but the CBO is painting a grim picture in which debt is already high and getting higher, and the economy, though recovering, will still be hobbling along for as far as forecasters can see. Instead of a Baby Boom to fuel economic growth, retiring Baby Boomers will be putting a financial burden on younger generations and the labor force will shrink with the aging of the population.

“With debt so large, federal spending on interest payments will increase substantially as interest rates rise to more typical levels,” read the CBO report. “Moreover, because federal borrowing generally reduces national saving, the capital stock and wages will be smaller than if debt was lower. In addition, lawmakers would have less flexibility than they otherwise would to use tax and spending policies to respond to unanticipated challenges. Finally, such a large debt poses a greater risk of precipitating a fiscal crisis, during which investors would lose so much confidence in the government’s ability to manage its budget that the government would be unable to borrow at affordable rates.”
 

chicago51

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Obamacare. If anything it is neutral.

However there is evidence to suggest it is better to have more people working less than a less people working more.

I believe during the depression Republicans opposed to FDR's heavy spending proposed reducing the work week to 30 hours as means for reducing unemployment. The idea is that if demand for labor is the same but a workers are working less companies will have to hire more workers.

In Germany they have unemployment pocilies that incentitive reducing hours as opposed laying off workers. They have unemployment insurance simular hours but the unemployment insurers covers hour reduction.

Here is an example of Germany's unemployment it works: say a company is experiencing a drop in demand and needs to cut 20 percent of its workforce. However, instead laying off 20 percent of the employers they will reduce hours across the board. Say you have 10 workers earing $400 a week and if they were laid off would receive unemployment checks for $200. So under if the company laid off 2 of the 10 workers then 2 of those workers would only earn $200 a week and would require other financial hardship like food assitance if they are family breadwinner. However if you cut all 10 workers by 20 percent (8 hours) that comes out $320 then the unemployment insurance would supplement them 20 percent of their unemployment check ($200 full value) which would be $40. So that comes out to $360 per worker a $40 a week reduction but everone keeps there jobs and while they may need to tighten their belts they likely don't end up on other welfare programs.

There is probably multiple factors and many elements of Germany's economy I am not aware of but I do know that Germany came out of the recession much much better than Europe as a whole. As far as I know they are the only country that does this type of policy. Perhaps lower work hours is a strategy reduce unemployment in periods of low labor demand.
 
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chicago51

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While would say the national debt is something to ignore we've been worse off debt wise than we are now. The first time in our nation's history our credit was downgraded in 2011 only occurred because the worst display of budget negotiating in the history of the United States for all parties involved.

The only thing that makes creditors nervous is when we create unnecessary drama over raising the debt limit. As long has we don't do stupid crap there is no reason the federal ( state and local governments don't issue their own currency and thus need to be much more careful with their debt, same with now with the EU) government should be able to borrow at the low interest rates that are equal to or even less than inflation.

This isn't to say that need come up with better spending/taxation plans but doing over the debt limit and God forbid breaching it is the only way our interest rates rise the foreseeable future. While I think shutting the government is a smart policy for negotiating and hurts the economy it is a much much much smarter policy than even talking about default.
 

phgreek

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...sooo,

incentivizing people to throttle their productivity/worth based on subsidies from others and patterning our labor policy after Europe is all good stuff...while not surprising

...Fucking Face-Palm...
 

Black Irish

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The way I read the quote from the CBO head is that poor people don't necessarily have less incentive to work, even though he says that, but they do not have an incentive to see their income rise. That's a bad spot to be in, where it's a bad thing to see your income increase. So we'll potentially have a group of people who won't see the value in an income increase because they will lose their government subsidy. I can't see that as anything but a net negative.
 

Ndaccountant

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The way I read the quote from the CBO head is that poor people don't necessarily have less incentive to work, even though he says that, but they do not have an incentive to see their income rise. That's a bad spot to be in, where it's a bad thing to see your income increase. So we'll potentially have a group of people who won't see the value in an income increase because they will lose their government subsidy. I can't see that as anything but a net negative.

Hence, the welfare trap.
 

GowerND11

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They ought to cut out freshman sports and if necessary JV sports instead of cutting sports. Local park district and non for profit sports programs can easily expand their age levels to absorb those kids so it is not like they wouldn't have a place to play.

Devil's Advocate on this one:

Many kids playing JV are fringe Varsity players, especially in small schools. Therefore they get to play a lot of minutes in JV, in the system, for the coaching staff, for their school, while also experiencing Varsity though they may only get in the Varsity games infrequently. Dropping JV could actually hurt athletics in the long run for many schools.

It is a hard thing to do with today's budgets for school districts, and cutting sports funding does make sense in a way, but I am a firm believer in a well rounded education of the Mind, Body, and Soul. Therefore, athletics are quite important for the student to fully grow and learn.
 

ACamp1900

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The way I read the quote from the CBO head is that poor people don't necessarily have less incentive to work, even though he says that, but they do not have an incentive to see their income rise. That's a bad spot to be in, where it's a bad thing to see your income increase. So we'll potentially have a group of people who won't see the value in an income increase because they will lose their government subsidy. I can't see that as anything but a net negative.

We are already here though, health care bill or no health care bill.

Welfare Recipients Can Now Collect More Than Teachers Earn | Ben Swann Truth In Media
 

phgreek

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We are already here though, health care bill or no health care bill.

Welfare Recipients Can Now Collect More Than Teachers Earn | Ben Swann Truth In Media

I just don't see how in the hell people can come to the conclusion that doing things this way is a good idea...

The federal government cannot have the visibility needed to make the determinations that need to be made in order to run out fraud, waste, and abuse. I question if the state can either. I think we need to start with the premise that if you are collecting assistance, your ass is going to work somewhere...I don't care if it is scraping bird poop off of runways...this notion that you don't need to work for pay is STUUUUUPID, and crippling to people who'd otherwise be very productive and fulfilled in their lives. Sure there are those who can't...but they'll be easy to identify...
 
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