Politics

[Buster Bluth]

So you're complaining becuase some 18 year old with no education and likely no skill set isn't getting paid the same as someone who did those things?

LOL. Good one.

Again, ANYONE on this earth can improve their situation. Just gotta work at it. If you have to work for 8 bucks an hour and live on noodles for a few years till that next opportunity, then that's the hand you were dealt and you likely PUT YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION TO BEGIN WITH.


Again, there are winners and losers in life. Even if you raised the min wage to 100 bucks an hour, we'd have this very conversation again becuase people would still bitch

This logic flies in the face of a billion statistics and studies that have been done analyzing just how hard it is to move up in this country.

I agree with elements of what you and gkirish have said, and will elaborate after class.

 

[ACamp1900]

I don't agree that most people put themselves in bad situations... most are born into them...

but I do agree that hard work over time solves most of the issue and that many with my background simply aren't willing to deal with either...

I can say with confidence that there are probably few on this board who grew up lower on the social ladder than I did. I faced a ton of huddles… kept working and am STILL working to improve my situation… I won't die a millionare, but I have comforts that I couldn't imagine years ago... it can be done for those who are willing to go the long haul with it.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I strongly suggest that each person read this report and then discuss mobility there after. There is a lot of great information contained here. However, as it pertains to mobility, 84% of Americans exceed their parents income. In fact, those at the bottom of the income ladder are the most likely to exceed their parents’ income as adults—93 percent do so.

Important to note that this study is based on cash income and does not include non-cash items, like medicare, Medicaid, employer health insurance, food stamps, etc.

"Why do more Americans experience upward absolute mobility than upward relative mobility?
The rungs of the income ladder have widened during the past generation, reflecting economic growth at all levels, but especially at the top. Median income in the bottom income quintile increased by 74 percent between the two generations, compared with 126 percent in the top income quintile (see Figure 4). The difference between the size of the rungs between the two generations means that while the vast majority of Americans exceeded their parents’ family incomes, the extent of that increase—particularly at the bottom—was not always enough to move them to a different rung of the income ladder."

http://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFiles/PCS_Assets/2012/Pursuing_American_Dream.pdf

 

[autry_denson]

I strongly suggest that each person read this report and then discuss mobility there after. There is a lot of great information contained here. However, as it pertains to mobility, 84% of Americans exceed their parents income. In fact, those at the bottom of the income ladder are the most likely to exceed their parents’ income as adults—93 percent do so.

Important to note that this study is based on cash income and does not include non-cash items, like medicare, Medicaid, employer health insurance, food stamps, etc.

"Why do more Americans experience upward absolute mobility than upward relative mobility?
The rungs of the income ladder have widened during the past generation, reflecting economic growth at all levels, but especially at the top. Median income in the bottom income quintile increased by 74 percent between the two generations, compared with 126 percent in the top income quintile (see Figure 4). The difference between the size of the rungs between the two generations means that while the vast majority of Americans exceeded their parents’ family incomes, the extent of that increase—particularly at the bottom—was not always enough to move them to a different rung of the income ladder."

http://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFiles/PCS_Assets/2012/Pursuing_American_Dream.pdf

The discussion on this thread was about relative mobility, the degree to which individuals change position within the income distribution over a lifetime or across generations. The figures on absolute mobility are important but they don't tell us anything about the degree to which the poor are stuck at the bottom or the rich are entrenched at the top. Levels of economic mobility are extremely low in the US, especially relative to the rest of the developed world.

It's nice to see that many people on here are aware of this. There is still the myth out there that the US is a land of opportunity when all of the evidence suggests that the rags to riches story is much less common here than in other countries.

 

[ACamp1900]

The discussion on this thread was about relative mobility, the degree to which individuals change position within the income distribution over a lifetime or across generations. The figures on absolute mobility are important but they don't tell us anything about the degree to which the poor are stuck at the bottom or the rich are entrenched at the top. Levels of economic mobility are extremely low in the US, especially relative to the rest of the developed world.

It's nice to see that many people on here are aware of this. There is still the myth out there that the US is a land of opportunity when all of the evidence suggests that the rags to riches story is much less common here than in other countries.

Would you say that the fact that someone getting paid to stay home makes more money in some cases than an entry level teacher who has gone through enough years in school and internships to be a doctor has even a little bit to do with that???

 

[autry_denson]

Would you say that the fact that someone getting paid to stay home makes more money in some cases than an entry level teacher who has gone through enough years in school and internships to be a doctor has even a little bit to do with that???

The US has substantially lower levels of mobility than nations that have substantially more generous welfare states.

 

[irishpat183]

The discussion on this thread was about relative mobility, the degree to which individuals change position within the income distribution over a lifetime or across generations. The figures on absolute mobility are important but they don't tell us anything about the degree to which the poor are stuck at the bottom or the rich are entrenched at the top. Levels of economic mobility are extremely low in the US, especially relative to the rest of the developed world.

It's nice to see that many people on here are aware of this. There is still the myth out there that the US is a land of opportunity when all of the evidence suggests that the rags to riches story is much less common here than in other countries.

False....What other country offers you more opportunity? Please, I'd love to hear it.

And don't give me the "living wage" argument as that's entirely subjective.

 

[irishpat183]

The US has substantially lower levels of mobility than nations that have substantially more generous welfare states.

But we're also more productive than anywhere else.

What good does a welfare state do? That's a serious question.


Our government was NOT designed to take care of people. Despite what you may hear from politicans.


And think about our "poverty" compared to other countries. It's laughable.

 

[autry_denson]

False....What other country offers you more opportunity? Please, I'd love to hear it.

And don't give me the "living wage" argument as that's entirely subjective.

At this point I consider this (and all posts from irishpat) as the strongest form of evidence in support of my argument.

 

[irishpat183]

I hate the term "living wage"....


I know people making 30k a year living just fine....and those making 100k a year broke as hell with constant money problems.


It's a made up term by bleeding hearts who want everyone to have the lifestyle they WANT and someone else to provide it.

 

[irishpat183]

At this point I consider this (and all posts from irishpat) as the strongest form of evidence in support of my argument.

Yeah, I know, you don't like me. Get in line.



But you still haven't answered my question. What country has more opportunity than this one?

 

[autry_denson]

Yeah, I know, you don't like me. Get in line.



But you still haven't answered my question. What country has more opportunity than this one?

keep posting, please. you're giving me credibility.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Yeah, I know, you don't like me. Get in line.



But you still haven't answered my question. What country has more opportunity than this one?

Several, according to research.

University of Michigan News Service | Exceptional upward mobility in the U.S. is a myth, international studies show

As he's pointed out...

 

[irishpat183]

Several, according to research, and depending on your metrics.

University of Michigan News Service | Exceptional upward mobility in the U.S. is a myth, international studies show

Again....what country offers MORE opportunity?????


Just because people don't take advantage of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are countless stories of those rising out of bad situations to do great things

And those links are bad to that guys research...only one works and it only compares the US, Germany, and Sweden?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Is America's Economic Mobility Exceptional? | Decisions Based on Evidence

Among developed countries:
Denmark, Norway, Canada, Australia, Sweden, New Zealand, German, Japan, Spain, and France.

 

[Wild Bill]

The discussion on this thread was about relative mobility, the degree to which individuals change position within the income distribution over a lifetime or across generations. The figures on absolute mobility are important but they don't tell us anything about the degree to which the poor are stuck at the bottom or the rich are entrenched at the top. Levels of economic mobility are extremely low in the US, especially relative to the rest of the developed world.

It's nice to see that many people on here are aware of this. There is still the myth out there that the US is a land of opportunity when all of the evidence suggests that the rags to riches story is much less common here than in other countries.

And those fools from Mexico are risking life and limb to get here. Suckers.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Thank you. Just because people don't take advantage, doesn't mean it's not there

That metric even rates Australia, Sweden, Canada, Norway, and Switzerland above the US when you display them by rank.

 

[Rizzophil]

I found it interesting that the IRS report today said that they cannot even control and use their own internal software. Yet, they are targeting tea party groups and will be in charge of Obamacare implentation.

Somehow, our country is arguing ideas and we cannot even use our common sense. Something is seriously wrong with government. It's out of control. Just open your eyes and look around.

 

[irishpat183]

Let me ask...then why do people flood our country with dreams of a better life?


I mean, we're missing something here. But I suppose all of those "social" geniuses got it figured out.


They do leave out "willing to work hard and make sacrifices" factor that is oh so important when it comes to doing better than your father.


I understand where you're coming from....but in reality, you can do what every you want here. It's your choice. You act as if these people are stuck, they're not.

 

[irishpat183]

I found it interesting that the IRS report today said that they cannot even control and use their own internal software. Yet, they are targeting tea party groups and will be in charge of Obamacare implentation.

Somehow, our country is arguing ideas and we cannot even use our common sense. Something is seriously wrong with government. It's out of control. Just open your eyes and look around.

Don't worry! The IRS has an amazing track record of figuring things out and treating people with respect. I'm sure this will all be painless.

 

[Ndaccountant]

The discussion on this thread was about relative mobility, the degree to which individuals change position within the income distribution over a lifetime or across generations. The figures on absolute mobility are important but they don't tell us anything about the degree to which the poor are stuck at the bottom or the rich are entrenched at the top. Levels of economic mobility are extremely low in the US, especially relative to the rest of the developed world.

It's nice to see that many people on here are aware of this. There is still the myth out there that the US is a land of opportunity when all of the evidence suggests that the rags to riches story is much less common here than in other countries.

Both need to be considered. The fact that almost everyone in this country is better off than their parents cannot be ignored. Just because others may have increased more should not take away from the fact that they are higher.

Its very easy to look at your neighbor and cry foul when you do not measure up. But let's not forget we are comparing not just to the top percentile in this country, but the top percentile in this world.

There is general stickiness at the ends of the ladder. But we need to remember that almost one-half (47 percent) of those raised in the bottom quintile of the family income ladder who do not earn a college degree are stuck there as adults, compared with 10 percent who do earn a college degree.

We need to refocus on education, and this doesn't mean throw more money at schools. Parents need to take more ownership IMO.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Let me ask...then why do people flood our country with dreams of a better life?


I mean, we're missing something here. But I suppose all of those "social" geniuses got it figured out.


They do leave out "willing to work hard and make sacrifices" factor that is oh so important when it comes to doing better than your father.


I understand where you're coming from....but in reality, you can do what every you want here. It's your choice. You act as if these people are stuck, they're not.

I had a hunch you'd dismiss data in favor of your feelings on the topic.

No one is saying that every person is stuck. But the deck is heavily stacked in favor of those who came from money. I grew up middle class. When I fell on my face a few times, my folks could rescue me or prop me up. It allowed me to get more education and has allowed me to get a higher than minimum-wage job. That's just the reality.

 

[Ndaccountant]

I had a hunch you'd dismiss data in favor of your feelings on the topic.

No one is saying that every person is stuck. But the deck is heavily stacked in favor of those who came from money. I grew up middle class. When I fell on my face a few times, my folks could rescue me or prop me up. It allowed me to get more education and has allowed me to get a higher than minimum-wage job. That's just the reality.

The answer is quite simple really. The bottom 20% in this country is way better than what was being offered in other countries.

 

[Rizzophil]

I found it interesting that the IRS report today said that they cannot even control and use their own internal software. Yet, they are targeting tea party groups and will be in charge of Obamacare implentation.

Somehow, our country is arguing ideas and we cannot even use our common sense. Something is seriously wrong with government. It's out of control. Just open your eyes and look around.

 

[Wild Bill]

Who's disagreeing? Pat was saying (I'm paraphrasing), " U.S. is the best, period, hands-down, no discussion necessary."

That's not necessarily true. And I stand by the statement that the deck is heavily stacked in favor of those who come from money (see Manziel, Johnny).

Isn't it just as easy to assume the deck is stacked in their favor b/c they are inherently more intelligent (wealthy people in general, not the Manziels)?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Isn't it just as easy to assume the deck is stacked in their favor b/c they are inherently more intelligent (wealthy people in general, not the Manziels)?

That's making an assumption that intelligence is fully genetic. The overwhelming evidence has said that it is both genetic and malleable according to experiences. The wealthy also have access to the opportunities to a greater extent.

 

[Rizzophil]

You guys ever read Rich Dad , Poor Dad?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I haven't

 

[ACamp1900]

The US has substantially lower levels of mobility than nations that have substantially more generous welfare states.

I'd like you to show me ONE nation that has "substantially more" mobility AND a welfare state that pays people more to do nothing than what an entry level teacher with YEARS of training and hard work already behind them makes in that same nation...

until I see that...


...

 

[autry_denson]

I'd like you to show me ONE nation that has "substantially more" mobility AND a welfare state that pays people more to do nothing than what an entry level teacher with YEARS of training and hard work already behind them makes in that same nation...

until I see that...


...

Sweden.
Norway.
Denmark.

Evidence sucks huh?