Politics

[connor_in]

That is kind of a hard question to answer in this format. Its more of a general opinion than it is one specific thing that he's done. If I were to lay out the case, it would be an amalgamation of hundreds or thousands of things. I don't really have the time or the interest in doing something like that because its just my opinion and ultimately it doesn't matter.

If I had to put my opinion in the simplest terms, I would say that I view him to be a hollow, shallow person who will say anything in order to get elected, because to him this is all about his legacy and his ego. He doesn't have any convictions. He doesn't have any empathy. He is not genuine. This may be a weird example, but I feel the same way about him as I do about Lebron James: its all synthetic packaging based on what they think people want from them; there is no "real" Mitt Romney just like there isn't a "real" Lebron James. Their entire beings are corporatized constructions, straight out of their handlers' focus groups. That is a particular type of person that I find intolerable.

Yes it is just your opinion but that is the nature of politics.

So far we have established that you know thousands of things about Mitt...and you know that he is in person a hollow and shallow man...and that all he cares about is being elected (even tho he's only been a gov and is trying for 2nd time for prez). Of those thousand things that point to him being a bad "person" (as opposed to candidate) I don' suppose you could pass along a couple?

And maybe point to a couple of things that point to Obama being so much a better "person". Once again I don't agree with Obama policy/view but make no decision on him as a person

 

[Quinntastic]

That is kind of a hard question to answer in this format. Its more of a general opinion than it is one specific thing that he's done. If I were to lay out the case, it would be an amalgamation of hundreds or thousands of things. I don't really have the time or the interest in doing something like that because its just my opinion and ultimately it doesn't matter.

If I had to put my opinion in the simplest terms, I would say that I view him to be a hollow, shallow person who will say anything in order to get elected, because to him this is all about his legacy and his ego. He doesn't have any convictions. He doesn't have any empathy. He is not genuine. This may be a weird example, but I feel the same way about him as I do about Lebron James: its all synthetic packaging based on what they think people want from them; there is no "real" Mitt Romney just like there isn't a "real" Lebron James. Their entire beings are corporatized constructions, straight out of their handlers' focus groups. That is a particular type of person that I find intolerable.

My thoughts, exactly. Though you said it much better than I could.

 

[irishjet34]

I have to laugh at the comment that Romney will say anything just to get elected. Remember all the huge promises Barak Obama made while campaigning? How many of those actually came true? I believe that can be considered saying anything to get elected.

 

[Quinntastic]

Irishjet, I can tell you exactly how many he has kept (and broken, and compromised on, and is still working on). There's this thing called "google". And, when you wonder things like that, you can type it out in a search bar. And ... it searches the WHOLE internet for you and brings back exactly what you want to know. And the whole process only takes like 10 seconds. Then you don't have to wonder anymore! You're welcome.

I've taken the liberty of asking google for you

Keep in mind that while 37% kept might seem low, the GOP has only kept 19% of theirs

 

[Rhode Irish]

It isn't just that, either. How many more of his promises would he have kept had he actually been able to get his agenda enacted? I don't contest the fact that Obama, like every politician before him, over promised. The difference between Romney and Obama in my eyes is that Obama actually wants to do what he says on the campaign trail, fail as he might. I don't believe Romney even believes Romney. He is literally just checking focus group approved issue positions off of a list when he talks. If you go back and read my posts in this thread, I have been consistent with this criticism - not just of him but his entire campaign, including his wife.

You can dismiss my criticism of him because I'm a liberal, but I don't feel the same way about every republican, even if I disagree with them. The polling backs up that I am not the only one with this opinion.

 

[irishjet34]

Depending on the page you look at. A page with different percentages pops up for me but I also see the one you saw. All depends what you look at. My point is I have no problem with him doing that. All politicians make promises and all politicians break promises. The nature of the beats I guess. My point is to judge one by saying he is just saying anything to get elected when the opponent is doing the exact same thing is not a very good reason. Now as was stated there are many other reasons that they do not like him which is every ones opinion just wanted to point that out. No offense, but a 10 second check of google can make Obama out to hate America and Romney out to be the worst human being alive. Neither of which is true I am sure.

 

[Quinntastic]

Thanks to Politifact.org (and a lot of calculation/counting on my part) here's what I calculated:

President Obama's Campaign Promises
Promises Kept-190 (37.4%)
Compromise-72
Promises Broken/Not Yet Rated-85
Stalled-49
In the Works-112

In the Works+Promises Kept+Compromised = 374/508 73.6% Total "Pass" Percentage
Stalled+Broken+NYR = 134/508 26.4% Total "Fail" Percentage

GOP Congressional Campaign Promises
In the works-11
Promises Kept-11 (19.3%)
Promises Broken/Not Yet Rated-28
Stalled-3
Compromised-4

In the works+Promises Kept+Compromised = 26/57 45.6% - Total "Pass" Percentage
Stalled+Broken+Not Yet Rated = 31/57 54.4% - Total "Fail" Percentage

And as far as Massachusetts under Mitt Romney: Here's some info on that

 

[4irishnation]

45.6% - Total "Pass" Percentage

Sweet!!!! Barry Soetoro's completion % = Tim Tebow #WINNING

 

[phgreek]

It isn't arbitrary at all. It is my studied opinion. Character judgments are, ultimately, subjective assessments based on the totality of what we know and how we weigh it. It is arbitrary to assess someone's character based on the first tweet of a particular day. It isn't arbitrary to assess someone's character.

"You can favor Romney's policies over Obama's, but you cannot make an honest case that Mitt Romney is, in any respect, a better person that the President. If that were the only criteria in the election, the election would be over already."


...all boils down to this...stating an opinion as fact w/o qualification, nor support can only appear arbitrary until further explanation...aaaand a tad trolish (yea, I'm guilty of being a little trolish as well)

...you arrived at arbitrary by different paths...doesn't make what you did any less arbitrary...

As well,...based on your response...I think it fair to assume someone simply used the first tweet of the day as a device to put forth their studied opinion about Obama's character.

maybe neither of you are as arbitrary as I thought...I learn so much in these...

...and with that I will happily allow you to get back to things of substance...

because now I need a beer...maybe I should have had one before this...

I honestly appreciate the response...and though I don't appear to...I appreciate the fact that you inform yourself, and do bring a great game to the political debate...I almost never agree, nor am I inclined to argue much beyond form, as I'm already in the bag for change. You know as well as I that there is no viable choice but Romney if your goal is change....some might say constant change should we elect him ...

 

[jason_h537]

This is politics, people omit facts, people stretch truths, and campaign promises are often broken. My issue with this election is the blatant lies by Romney and Ryan that are defended because... why? The man flat out lied about Obama's response to Libya, then doubled down on it. People believe that. There are people on this board who honestly believe Obama "apologized" about the incident in Libya. There was a poll in Ohio that said 16% of Ohio Republicans believe Romney killed Bin ***** and 46% of Ohio Republicans do not know which candidate deserves more credit for killing Bin *****. The words of our elected officials carry weight.

He lied about Obama cutting welfare to work. A flat out lie. he lied about the "you didn't build that" quote. Then you have Ryan lying about the plant shutting down in his home town because of Obama. Another flat out lie. You have Ryan on air saying he did not vote for defense cuts, Obama did, he voted for the Budget Control Act. ITS THE SAME ****ING THING. Romney on Meet The Press said he would not repeal all of Obamacare then in a press release later that day said he will. This does not include Romney's record which has been highlighted as evolving. How is it defended? "well Obama lies too" So that makes it OK?

These are men responsible for running the country, no one should be lying. As a Romney voter you should be mad that he is resorting to lies to defeat a president that members of this very board have called a failure. Then people bring up trivial **** like what Romney and Obama tweeted first on 9/11. WHO GIVES A ****, that is such arbitrary and meaningless ****. You wanna go that road, half Romney's followers are fake accounts.

Everyone is going to have a different opinion of a man because no one knows these men personally. Romney seems like a loving husband and good father. But based on Romney's campaign, I believe he is someone who will say anything to be president. Based on Romney's political record, I believe he is a man without conviction. Based on his business record, I believe he is a man who puts profits over people.

 

[jason_h537]

Also why can't I say Bin *****?

 

[connor_in]

This is politics, people omit facts, people stretch truths, and campaign promises are often broken. My issue with this election is the blatant lies by Romney and Ryan that are defended because... why? The man flat out lied about Obama's response to Libya, then doubled down on it. People believe that. There are people on this board who honestly believe Obama "apologized" about the incident in Libya. There was a poll in Ohio that said 16% of Ohio Republicans believe Romney killed Bin ***** and 46% of Ohio Republicans do not know which candidate deserves more credit for killing Bin *****. The words of our elected officials carry weight.

He lied about Obama cutting welfare to work. A flat out lie. he lied about the "you didn't build that" quote. Then you have Ryan lying about the plant shutting down in his home town because of Obama. Another flat out lie. You have Ryan on air saying he did not vote for defense cuts, Obama did, he voted for the Budget Control Act. ITS THE SAME ****ING THING. Romney on Meet The Press said he would not repeal all of Obamacare then in a press release later that day said he will. This does not include Romney's record which has been highlighted as evolving. How is it defended? "well Obama lies too" So that makes it OK?

These are men responsible for running the country, no one should be lying. As a Romney voter you should be mad that he is resorting to lies to defeat a president that members of this very board have called a failure. Then people bring up trivial **** like what Romney and Obama tweeted first on 9/11. WHO GIVES A ****, that is such arbitrary and meaningless ****. You wanna go that road, half Romney's followers are fake accounts.

Everyone is going to have a different opinion of a man because no one knows these men personally. Romney seems like a loving husband and good father. But based on Romney's campaign, I believe he is someone who will say anything to be president. Based on Romney's political record, I believe he is a man without conviction. Based on his business record, I believe he is a man who puts profits over people.

You talk about people omitting facts...streching truths and that RR flat out lie...I think you should review some of the claims you go onto make from there....also watch out for the supposed fact checkers as they have been found to be a little bit off as of late....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[BobD]

 

[Rhode Irish]

You talk about people omitting facts...streching truths and that RR flat out lie...I think you should review some of the claims you go onto make from there....also watch out for the supposed fact checkers as they have been found to be a little bit off as of late....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Yeah, Jason. Obviously anyone who does not explicitly endorse the right wing agenda is pinko commie. This is the problem with arguing with conservatives. The only valid sources for anything are the partisan mouthpieces they consider non-"lamestream" media.

Nothing Jason said is even remotely disputable, except by wing nuts. If anything, he pulled punches.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

GOD BLESS!!!!!

Just catching up. RI Hagen is right. It is arbitrary and capricious, as well as disingenuous to compare two people's first post of the day to their attention to anything, let alone feelings a patriotism or scrotum paralysis, or whatever. (It is also conflation. A sitting president has events woven into his day for such purpose, a challenger better do that, he has much less access to the media.)

 

[Bogtrotter07]

You talk about people omitting facts...streching truths and that RR flat out lie...I think you should review some of the claims you go onto make from there....also watch out for the supposed fact checkers as they have been found to be a little bit off as of late....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

I am not so sure that he hasn't understated the case against Romney. A friend of mine and I had an in-depth conversation yesterday.

We agreed that we couldn't understand why the Obama campaign didn't hit Bain Capital. The way they took decent companies like KB Toys, and Dunkin' Donuts and sold off everything of value to make millions in profits and saddled the company with insurmountable debt, and let them sink in bankruptcy, is amazing. What is more than amazing is that we would entertain electing anyone like that to any office. There is no wealth or job creation in that enterprise, just sleight of hand.

Before anyone tries to pull the" It is perfectly legal" or any other argument out; if I took your credit card (with or without permission) and maxed it out, without your permission. You would not be held liable, and I would be guilty of criminal charges. And this is what Bain specializes in.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

BobD, I've used SteriCycle as a vendor. They decidely do not "specialize in the disposal of fetuses."

I would like to call this a Mark May type of political commentary, but that may be an insult to Mark May.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

BobD, I've used SteriCycle as a vendor. They decidely do not "specialize in the disposal of fetuses."

I would like to call this a Mark May type of political commentary, but that may be an insult to Mark May.

How do you know? Or is a truer statement, nobody you know disposes of human fetuses through SteriCycle.

Once again Bob D's comment is this is a specialized service of the company. What you are saying is that this company doesn't go around doing nothing but looking for fetuses for which to dispose. Two different points, nothing to argue about. One big conflation required to bring them together.

On a side note, I believe they also dispose of arms and legs.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

How do you know? Or is a truer statement, nobody you know disposes of human fetuses through SteriCycle.

Once again Bob D's comment is this is a specialized service of the company. What you are saying is that this company doesn't go around doing nothing but looking for fetuses for which to dispose. Two different points, nothing to argue about. One big conflation required to bring them together.

On a side note, I believe they also dispose of arms and legs.

What? They're a medical waste company. Those red bins where you put the old needles when you give blood -- those are theirs. They give you biohazard bins, and whatever you put in them they'll pick up. You could put dog **** in it and they'll come and get it. Doesn't mean that they specialize in picking up crap.

 

[connor_in]

Yeah, Jason. Obviously anyone who does not explicitly endorse the right wing agenda is pinko commie. This is the problem with arguing with conservatives. The only valid sources for anything are the partisan mouthpieces they consider non-"lamestream" media.

Nothing Jason said is even remotely disputable, except by wing nuts. If anything, he pulled punches.

RI...please list in my comment where I said anything like "Obviously anyone who does not explicitly endorse the right wing agenda is pinko commie"

Also, a lot of jason's post was opinion and as such disputable. Just like your post of Obama is a better "person" than Romney by far.

This is MY problem with dealing with liberals, they tend to view their opinions as fact and therefore not "even remotely disputable, except by wing nuts"

By the way, just FYI I read the NYT articles and the Time/Newsweek articles and watch network and cable news coverage and visit sites like DU and HuffPo (sorry can't handle DailyKos) in addition to visiting sites like Drudge and Newsbusters and WSJ and IBD. I usually try to get thru the featured articles on realclearpolitics everyday morning and afternoon editions. So please do not lecture me on my "sources" of information. I do not know where all you go for your information, but I don't stoop to thinking it is purely MSNBC 24/7 and have not alluded to you as a moonbat. I HAVE said previously that I believe you are intelligent and respect your opinion...but what do I know right since I am only a right wing nut

 

[Bogtrotter07]

What? They're a medical waste company. Those red bins where you put the old needles when you give blood -- those are theirs. They give you biohazard bins, and whatever you put in them they'll pick up. You could put dog **** in it and they'll come and get it. Doesn't mean that they specialize in picking up crap.

Of course you are right. They specialize in sharps disposal. They are good at it. We are agreed. They also specialize in about thirty other things, many of which are related, like rX disposal. Got too much medicine? Call Stericycle. Where do you think surgical waste products go? And what do you think an aborted fetus is considered?

You were 100% correct in your post. But it is 100% correct to make the other statements about Stericycle. Welcome to the ultra-hypocritical world of American business, war, and politics. Can someone cue George Carlin? Start with something like the seven words you cannot say on television, and move forward slowly.

 

[phgreek]

I am not so sure that he hasn't understated the case against Romney. A friend of mine and I had an in-depth conversation yesterday.

We agreed that we couldn't understand why the Obama campaign didn't hit Bain Capital. The way they took decent companies like KB Toys, and Dunkin' Donuts and sold off everything of value to make millions in profits and saddled the company with insurmountable debt, and let them sink in bankruptcy, is amazing. What is more than amazing is that we would entertain electing anyone like that to any office. There is no wealth or job creation in that enterprise, just sleight of hand.

Before anyone tries to pull the" It is perfectly legal" or any other argument out; if I took your credit card (with or without permission) and maxed it out, without your permission. You would not be held liable, and I would be guilty of criminal charges. And this is what Bain specializes in.

well, private equity firms can operate with the old corporate raider mentality we've come to know in movies like wall street and pretty woman...imagery I think you are seeking to invoke here. Many are actually invited in...as such, sometimes they look more like a venture capitalist, but they have the nifty ability to use leverage and not all cash...in short this makes them pull from operating $$$ to service interest payments etc. I wouldn't use one, and I wouldn't structure my stock offering such that they could do much but cause problems via minority stock holder claims...but thats me...

I can't speak to the number of corporate raider type transactions Bain engaged in. I am most interested in the ones Romney was an actual praticipant in. Romney sounds more like the venture flavor (invited in) than the raider flavor. But I don't know that, and forgive me if I question anecdotal claims from former employees of associated businesses who've failed. Do they really know, or are they hearing excuses and blamers within their own management ranks who can't face their failure...is the emotion of their trama being "used" here?

I'm going off to find out what I can on it as you raise a reasonable point...even if a little oversimplified.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Good point PH. When I oversimplify, it is to be able to make a point that we can get our hands around and discuss. Is that valid. Is it better to avoid getting lost in the minutcia, or to maintain absolutely all detail?

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Of course you are right. They specialize in sharps disposal. They are good at it. We are agreed. They also specialize in about thirty other things, many of which are related, like rX disposal. Got too much medicine? Call Stericycle. Where do you think surgical waste products go? And what do you think an aborted fetus is considered?

You were 100% correct in your post. But it is 100% correct to make the other statements about Stericycle. Welcome to the ultra-hypocritical world of American business, war, and politics. Can someone cue George Carlin? Start with something like the seven words you cannot say on television, and move forward slowly.

George Carlin aside...it sounds like agree...Stericycle doesn't "specialize" in disposing of fetuses any more than your garbage man "specializes" in disposing of banana-peels.

Saying that they do is just preying on the unknowledgeable.

 

[Rhode Irish]

RI...please list in my comment where I said anything like "Obviously anyone who does not explicitly endorse the right wing agenda is pinko commie"

Also, a lot of jason's post was opinion and as such disputable. Just like your post of Obama is a better "person" than Romney by far.

This is MY problem with dealing with liberals, they tend to view their opinions as fact and therefore not "even remotely disputable, except by wing nuts"

By the way, just FYI I read the NYT articles and the Time/Newsweek articles and watch network and cable news coverage and visit sites like DU and HuffPo (sorry can't handle DailyKos) in addition to visiting sites like Drudge and Newsbusters and WSJ and IBD. I usually try to get thru the featured articles on realclearpolitics everyday morning and afternoon editions. So please do not lecture me on my "sources" of information. I do not know where all you go for your information, but I don't stoop to thinking it is purely MSNBC 24/7 and have not alluded to you as a moonbat. I HAVE said previously that I believe you are intelligent and respect your opinion...but what do I know right since I am only a right wing nut

Sounds like we read a lot of the same stuff. I also can't stomach Kos and read just about anything posted on RCP. I don't mess with Drudge though. Also, the "thumbs down" at the top of my post was an accident from typing on my phone and not meant for you. My comment about the right being dismissive of media was a generalization and shouldn't have been directed at you. That is a tactic of the right, IMO. They talk about non-FOX media with disdain to shield themselves from any criticism of the right by the rest of the world.

 

[RDU Irish]

Yeah, Jason. Obviously anyone who does not explicitly endorse the right wing agenda is pinko commie. This is the problem with arguing with conservatives. The only valid sources for anything are the partisan mouthpieces they consider non-"lamestream" media.

Nothing Jason said is even remotely disputable, except by wing nuts. If anything, he pulled punches.

Get with the times, he's a Jihadist, or at least sympathetic to their cause. That is sooooo Reagan. Although Al Gore was a pinko - my four year old niece at the time said so.

Death to Infidels!!!!

Seriously though, acting like your semantic BS "lie" over the Janesville plant is a stone cold fact, is laughable. Obama made a campaign promise to keep it open. It closed within a year of him saying such a stupid thing. Ryan rightfully calls him out for saying such a dumb thing and misleading the people of Janesville and you twist the words to mean Ryan is a liar because the plant closed before Obama took office (conflation much?).

Ignoring Ryan's comments - Obama saying what he said means one of two things to me
1) He really thought he could save that specific plant, and had every right and power to do so if elected POTUS.
2) He knew it was pure BS and those flyover hicks would eat it up in a state up for grabs.
Either of these is an incredibly toxic mentality to take into the highest office in the land.

Oh, let me add 3) I just read the prompter and let my staffers figure out what needs to be done.

I cannot think of any logical, well intentioned reason Obama would make that promise. It was a horribly irresponsible statement preying on ignorance and desperation. You know, the people Democrats say theyAnd before y'all tee off on the "saved the auto industry" talking points, isolate it to promises made to that specific town relying on that specific plant.

 

[connor_in]

Sounds like we read a lot of the same stuff. I also can't stomach Kos and read just about anything posted on RCP. I don't mess with Drudge though. Also, the "thumbs down" at the top of my post was an accident from typing on my phone and not meant for you. My comment about the right being dismissive of media was a generalization and shouldn't have been directed at you. That is a tactic of the right, IMO. They talk about non-FOX media with disdain to shield themselves from any criticism of the right by the rest of the world.

It does sound like we agree on some things (YAY)...I will say that while I do watch FNC in addition to the others, I recognize they have their slant (as do other media outlets) and thus my incorporating sites with opposing views or even views that somewhat agree but slightly divergent so that hopefully I am exposed to details from a bunch of views across the poltical spectrum.

 

[phgreek]

Good point PH. When I oversimplify, it is to be able to make a point that we can get our hands around and discuss. Is that valid. Is it better to avoid getting lost in the minutcia, or to maintain absolutely all detail?

mmmm...I don't think all the simplification was for the benefit of open discussion bogs..... Do you in fact know the course of these two companies was set in motion by Bain? Do you know how Bain came to be involved?

specifically as relates to any Bain companies...I haven't done a lick of research, but I'm guessing stock holders invited Bain in more often than not. In situations where the company saw an opportunity, but could not raise Venture dollars, and did not want to do additional stock offerings, its conceivable management themselves might go to Bain. Which case is Bain's fault then?

Indeed there is a case where Bain could have done an old style hit ala the movies we talked...but that isn't easy to do...its much easier if folks want you in. There is also the possibility that Bain misled folks to get in...I won't discount that...they are out there selling like a boardwalk salesman that they are the turn-around kings...I have no doubt about that...but it is never as simple as the press portrays it...doesn't mean you are wrong, but if I'm betting THE tell is your first point...the Obama folks aren't attacking it very hard.

I think the reason the Obama folks haven't used Bain much is because there isn't much there...and they'd have to lie, and Wasserman Shultz is busy......I tease

but you raised my interest, not my ire...I like it.

 

[phgreek]

There was a poll in Ohio that said 16% of Ohio Republicans believe Romney killed Bin ***** and 46% of Ohio Republicans do not know which candidate deserves more credit for killing Bin *****. The words of our elected officials carry weight.

no way...do you have the link...not doubting you, but I want to read that...that is crazy

 

[irishog77]

Get with the times, he's a Jihadist, or at least sympathetic to their cause. That is sooooo Reagan. Although Al Gore was a pinko - my four year old niece at the time said so.

Death to Infidels!!!!

Seriously though, acting like your semantic BS "lie" over the Janesville plant is a stone cold fact, is laughable. Obama made a campaign promise to keep it open. It closed within a year of him saying such a stupid thing. Ryan rightfully calls him out for saying such a dumb thing and misleading the people of Janesville and you twist the words to mean Ryan is a liar because the plant closed before Obama took office (conflation much?).

Ignoring Ryan's comments - Obama saying what he said means one of two things to me
1) He really thought he could save that specific plant, and had every right and power to do so if elected POTUS.
2) He knew it was pure BS and those flyover hicks would eat it up in a state up for grabs.
Either of these is an incredibly toxic mentality to take into the highest office in the land.

Oh, let me add 3) I just read the prompter and let my staffers figure out what needs to be done.

I cannot think of any logical, well intentioned reason Obama would make that promise. It was a horribly irresponsible statement preying on ignorance and desperation. You know, the people Democrats say theyAnd before y'all tee off on the "saved the auto industry" talking points, isolate it to promises made to that specific town relying on that specific plant.

"Conflation"-- the new IE drinking game! Every time it's said, take a drink!