Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
After having been in construction fot awhile now I'm amazed that NASA pulled this off given all of the unknowns. If it would have been contracted out here's what the possible scenario (one I've seen on plenty of projects) might have been given all of the unknowns. Contractor A submits low ball bid and wins award. 2 years in they go bankrupt. Contractor B comes in with a low bid and change orders pile up. Contractor B goes bankrupt or sues. Contractor C sends lander to Mars and it blows up.

Anyhow, I'm sure NASA does subcontract out quite a bit as does the military. The point I was making is that the magical market is pretty bad at spending money on research just for the sake of research (not necessarily producing anything tangible at times). That's why so much of it is done vis a vis universities with public money. That is however, the kind of stuff that leads to new technological leaps forward and has created a shitzue ton of jobs.

Anyhow, isn't setting the permitters for or developing policies where market and or states can get it done just a verbose way of saying regulation?

Good luck with the GIS stuff. It's pretty cool when you get to suitability modeling if you haven't done that yet.

But NASA's bureaucracy does exist and is inefficient, and a professor I had two years ago spoke about it in detail. NASA could run like the National Science Foundation (which as you may know handles 1/5 of college science funding)--an independent federal agency free of much of the politics.

But NASA is such a tiny, tiny part of government and I personally don't mind NASA one bit. It's not going to bother me if it stays the same way.

And I don't have any issue with funding for science and technology in our universities nor have I ever said that I have. That's one area where I disagree with Ron Paul. BUT, I think you're stance on the market is also laughable, capitalism has crushed the price equilibrium of everything product and service, and sooooo many corporations push D&R further and further. I think whatever works, works, and I don't have a side in private or public-private partnerships.
 

ACamp1900

Counting my ‘bet against ND’ winnings
Messages
48,947
Reaction score
11,225
We use too be to get her as a nation. Were you used too have unity where now finding they're is none. I do’t no were our unity went, butt its gone. Will their ever bee unity again?

This is mine hi-coo. Titled: Their used too B Unity, Than their was bush.
 
Last edited:
C

Cackalacky

Guest
The feds didn't build that. State and local governments "made that happen".

Everyone of those things are heavily subsidized by the federal government. plus you have user taxes issued by state and the public entities too. Ex. Charleston's lovely Arthur Ravenel bridge.

"Raising financial support for a new eight-lane bridge over the Cooper River was a struggle 20 years in the making, prolonged by the state's insistence that it could not afford such a bridge and by Charleston's reluctance to provide any funds for the project. Several proposals were made for a toll bridge, but the mayors of Charleston and Mount Pleasant objected. When officials revealed in 1995 that the Grace Bridge scored a 4 out of 100 for safety and integrity, retired U.S. Congressman Arthur Ravenel, Jr. ran for the South Carolina Senate with a goal of solving the funding problem. He helped to establish the S.C. Infrastructure Bank and worked with local, state, and federal officials to create partnerships that helped to materialize the final funding.

The State Infrastructure Bank (SIB) budgeted $325 million to accompany $96.6 million from the Federal Highway Administration. The project did not become a reality, however, until the SIB agreed to commit to a $215 million federal loan, provided that Charleston County would contribute $3 million a year for 25 years, including an 8.33% sales tax increase, to the federal loan, as well as yearly payments from the SCDOT and State Ports Authority. The overall price of the bridge totaled around $700 million" - wiki

This bridge now has a design life of over 100 years and can handle the capacity of population growth till 2105. Everybody working together makes it happen. This bridge replaced one that recieved a 4 out of 100 as a working bridge two lanes (built in 1920s) and a second 5 lane bridge built in 1969. It took 20 years of planning the financial decision. The bridge was a design-build project by the SCDOT along with a huge private consortium of engineers and completed under scheduled time, however they recieved bouses for completing it on time and under budget.

ravenel_bridge_0728.jpg

This bridge now allows for the largest of ships to enter Charleston harbor, which now requires deepening of the harbor's channel. Guess what. Our legislators are currently pandering to the federal government again in raising money to help fund the dredging operation, as well as an expansion of port terminals in the harbor ( Lindsay Graham and Jim DeMint BTW). It is estimated an additional 10,000 jobs in the area will be generated by this alone.

We all work together to get things done. Your tax dollars helped fund a bridge in my city which many of you may never use. Well, these thing happens all over the country but I don't bitch and moan about it because I know that the people of that community, area, state, or whatever will receive a benefit from it, and I indirectly also recieve a benefit from it as well to include more jobs, more imports, more inflow of economy to that area and thus to the federal government.

The state alone could not have done this. The City of Charleston and/or Mt. Pleasant alone could not have done this, and it was absolutely a necessary project for many reasons and was finished under budget and on time. It was so efficient tha the design as you can see in the picture incoprorated building the new bridge over a portion of the old bridge without having to demolish anything first. I also glady accept that 8.33% increase in the area sales tax to support this effort. It is a beautiful addition to our community as well as providing necessary and beneficial access to the area's resources and municpalities.

Just my input.

P.S. The remains of the old bridges (250,000 lbs of reinforced concrete) were dumped offshore to create a reef habitat for the local fisherman and 25,000 lbs of steel were recycled. The reef habitats are thriving now and provide excellent game fishing.
 
Last edited:

choo choo

crusty veteran
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
543
who gives a ****...they both suck...and we are on the doorstep of ireland and 2012...lets play ball
 

Rizzophil

Well-known member
Messages
2,431
Reaction score
579
Go see 2016 : Obama's America

It uses Obama's own words from his books and speeches to paint the picture for what Obama wants to do in the next four years.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
Not speaking for him because I may have misunderstood what he was trying to portray but isn't there some truth to that type of argument?

If you haven't lived, how do you know? (Rhetorical question really)

What I mean is, not saying that you can't present a valuable or reasonable argument being young, but how can you say something so strongly if you really haven't experienced that something when someone older then (than?) you has?

I'm 26 so I present this "argument" from the younger side.

(dshans, I apologize for the possible incorrect grammar issue.)

Someone older and smarter than me once said:
"If you aren't a democrat when you are 20 you have no heart.

If you aren't a republican when you are 50 you have no brain."

Tadman - Thanks for playing along and offering your thoughts on areas for REDUCING government. I agree, corporate bailouts suck. Let them fail and let the free market clean it up. Government involvement in banking creates too big to fail, change policies to make big banks less competitive and small banks more competitive (increasing FDIC insurance rates the larger you get for one, looser regulations on smaller banks for two). I love the idea of smaller lobbies, hilarious and probably effective.

BobD - Do you have absolutely no area of federal government you would reduce in size and scope or push back to the states? Do you have any solutions for improvement that do not involve advancing the power and influence of the federal government? You illustrate San Francisco as having stupid policies taking "personal liberty" to an extreme while nanny stating away happy meal toys. Does that not reinforce the concept of "laboratories" of democracy? How has Michelle Obama's pet project of healthy lunches turned out? Funny how those salads cost a ton and just end up in the garbage.

Cackalacky - I would love to see a study of federal and state spending on roads compared to the gas taxes collected. I think there is plenty of money but it gets poached by politicians. I see projects like yours absolutely as a major function of federal government in order to facilitate interstate commerce. I submit the feds should have paid more of that project so as to not require a local sales tax increase. The "transportation funds" are raided all the time. Wisconsin did it to balance the budget and then got in a pinch when it was time for big projects in Milwaukee. (one of the many tricks used by governor Jim Doyle to "balance" budgets and sell the future only to retire before Scott Walker's election and the predictable budget shortfall).
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Go see 2016 : Obama's America

It uses Obama's own words from his books and speeches to paint the picture for what Obama wants to do in the next four years.


"But even the staunchest anti-Obama factions should be wary of the fallacious content flying around in D'Souza's film." http://http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/movies/167545205.html


"Interviews with interested parties, news footage and excerpts from Obama's 1995 book "Dreams From My Father," are woven in as well. But mostly it is D'Souza connecting the dots; there are no opposing points of view." Review: '2016: Obama's America' more dogma than documentary - Inside Bay Area

Daily Kos: Obama’s America: 2016 Review -Want a conservative in 2012 radical Obama your best choice-my personal favorite.

LULZ....smh
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Cackalacky - I would love to see a study of federal and state spending on roads compared to the gas taxes collected. I think there is plenty of money but it gets poached by politicians. I see projects like yours absolutely as a major function of federal government in order to facilitate interstate commerce. I submit the feds should have paid more of that project so as to not require a local sales tax increase. The "transportation funds" are raided all the time. Wisconsin did it to balance the budget and then got in a pinch when it was time for big projects in Milwaukee. (one of the many tricks used by governor Jim Doyle to "balance" budgets and sell the future only to retire before Scott Walker's election and the predictable budget shortfall).

Fuel taxes in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Very good sources on your questions. Feds raised $25 billion in mid 2000's from gas tax alone. These taxes are typically used to promote infrastructure projects such as the one I outlined above.

In South Carolina, the state gas tax can only be used for infrastructure and road projects. Many taxes are "user taxes" http://http://www.southcarolinagasprices.com/tax_info.aspx. These use taxes also help fund cleanup programs from spills due to old underground storage tanks leaking into the groundwater, many of which are located in rural areas and affect the well water of many residents. I personally have collected a water sample from a rural home near a leaking UST that was approximately 30% gasoline product. It came from the kitchen tap and well water contaminated by the leaking fuel and you could see the gas floating on top of the collected sample. These programs are funded and enforced by state laws but include minimum federal standards, and I mean minimum. SC has some laws much more stringent than the feds, though our taxes collected to fund these programs are much lower than the national average. Odd would'nt you say....

I believe though that transportation funds are separate from gas taxes. You are correct some gets siphoned off for other purposes. To get Boeing to come to Charleston, we had to make major improvements to the infrastruture around their proposed site. The State ended up paying for some of thesite work and expenses in building the facilitly to entice them to come to Charleston. That came from the transportation funds and from elsewhere, including free land, and tax breaks...
 
Last edited:

Domina Nostra

Well-known member
Messages
6,251
Reaction score
1,388
Never said that. Geez.... Somebody has to set a minimum. Think everyone will do the right thing. Can you say Wall Street?

I would love to have a minimum bar when it comes to photos of half-naked teeneage girls in a football forum! Why should I have to chose between staying off this site, or staring at what's-her-name's knockers? Why not keep those on designated threads?).

But this is a funny example of why some are hesitant to embrace centralized standards on everything. Once a majority agree something is fine, everyone else just has to live with it, for better or worse. Not a lot of room for meaningful disagreements or divergent approaches.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I would love to have a minimum bar when it comes to photos of half-naked teeneage girls in a football forum! Why should I have to chose between staying off this site, or staring at what's-her-name's knockers? Why not keep those on designated threads?).

But this is a funny example of why some are hesitant to embrace centralized standards on everything. Once a majority agree something is fine, everyone else just has to live with it, for better or worse. Not a lot of room for meaningful disagreements or divergent approaches.

I have no problems with centralized standards based on factual evidence (or as factual as one can get) that can be changed in light of new evidence. Its hard to argue against facts, but unfortunately, a lot of decision are not made on facts, rather, public opinion which is less than reliable.

Ex. Clean Water Act. That act is in all of our best interest. Based on years of scientific research and unignorable consequences. If one does not agree, google "Cuyahoga River fires." or we can go back to this:

Water-pollution.jpg
127152820-23101343.JPG
 
Last edited:

tadman95

I have a bigger bullet
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
248
I would love to have a minimum bar when it comes to photos of half-naked teeneage girls in a football forum! Why should I have to chose between staying off this site, or staring at what's-her-name's knockers? Why not keep those on designated threads?).

But this is a funny example of why some are hesitant to embrace centralized standards on everything. Once a majority agree something is fine, everyone else just has to live with it, for better or worse. Not a lot of room for meaningful disagreements or divergent approaches.

Your point about the "Signature", out of respect, I have removed mine. While it seemed pretty cool at the time, a couple of days later, it's probably run its course, at least for me. I mark it up to building anticipation, a little boredom, a show of solidarity. A well meaning effort. I'll admit it's gotten a little annoying scrolling past all of these.

I'm not advocating standards by majority opinion, they should be reasoned and factual as can be best determined. There should be some level of competency in math and reading expected out of 18 year old kids as an example.

Its a complicated subject to be sure. I would say this, I would love to have this group in a room to have these discussions. I think we could do better that a lot of people, cough cough congress cough cough.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Buster, I hope you know that I like you and its not personal. I just think you might suffer from being so smart you don't know anything. I'm saying, or trying to say...before you make statements about how the government doesn't do anything real well, you should go see what the rest of the world is like and how they live. We are a very spoiled country, spoiled rotten to be truthful.
Thats all I'm sayin'

No harm to me, I promise.

You haven't named anything that it does very well.

We are spoiled. Spoiled rotten indeed! That too, can be the fault of the federal government. We have outlived our status by over sixteen trillion dollars. Why make actual decisions and live with them when you can print the money and blame one of the other 535 congressmen and the President. The system has been at fault. A system that takes power and authority away from local governments and brings it to one more easily-corruptible place.

Can you name the last time we had a homerun bipartisan law that worked really, really well? You can't. You can't because Congressmen don't care because they don't live like normal Americans. Their healthcare is elite, they don't have to deal with TSA, and their pension is magnificent. None of their laws ever effect them.

We should stop saying "this program is a bad idea!"/"this is what America needs!" and ask ourselves why the Feds are even involved. They have a terrrrrrrible track record, the United States is great despite the Congressional clowns, not because of them.
 

tadman95

I have a bigger bullet
Messages
2,846
Reaction score
248
No harm to me, I promise.

Can you name the last time we had a homerun bipartisan law that worked really, really well? You can't. You can't because Congressmen don't care because they don't live like normal Americans. Their healthcare is elite, they don't have to deal with TSA, and their pension is magnificent. None of their laws ever effect them.

It's been a while for sure. As for the exceptions they allow themselves, it's mind boggling and is all of their faults, republican and democrat.

They do seem to be able to agree on a few things. SMH
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Can you name the last time we had a homerun bipartisan law that worked really, really well? You can't. You can't because Congressmen don't care because they don't live like normal Americans. Their healthcare is elite, they don't have to deal with TSA, and their pension is magnificent. None of their laws ever effect them.

The scapel and surgery technique used to balance the budget under Clinton. It was not one law in particular but a nip here a tuck there and for the most part very effective and bipartisan. The feds are also very effective at providing minimum standards that make our lives better to include trasportation requirements, water quality requirements, minimum education requirements (though our system is outdated and in need of an industrialized nation renovation as opposed to being based on the old agrarian system), as well as providing and facilitating funds (loans) for municipalities to perform major civic projects. See my posts above. Do they need to be reviewed and tweaked? Certainly. Do they need to be cut to the bone or gutted, some, maybe. But none of that is going to happen in this obstructionist environment we have today.

I agree that Congressmen don't care as they are paid to hold positions that benefit their donors, not the people they are suppposed to represent.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
How can you say a tweak here and there when the debt is now over 100% of GDP?

How can you act like the problem isn't so big when we have over $100TRILL in unfunded liabilities?
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
How can you say a tweak here and there when the debt is now over 100% of GDP?

How can you act like the problem isn't so big when we have over $100TRILL in unfunded liabilities?

Dick Cheney says so. We have to cut a little deeper, be more serious with our technique, and cut down on defense spending by maybe 20%.

And if you still want to know why I am nonchalant about it, is because it does not matter until there is a fundamental change in Washington. Until Citizen's United is overturned, get money out of politics, we update our education system update the tax system, have our representatives represent us instead of special interests and corporations, and cut defense spending, nothing will change. Does not matter who is in office. We have out spent ourselves into the ground because of bad policy choices, a huge retirement population and an out of control tax code and it will continue until at a minimum all of these conditions are met. I am not talking about scrapping the federal system at all, it needs to be fundamentally changed from the inside.

Our generation may actually have to take it on the chin for the next one and learn from previous mistakes. That would be ideal, but I would not hold my breath.
 
Last edited:

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
"But even the staunchest anti-Obama factions should be wary of the fallacious content flying around in D'Souza's film." http://http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/movies/167545205.html


"Interviews with interested parties, news footage and excerpts from Obama's 1995 book "Dreams From My Father," are woven in as well. But mostly it is D'Souza connecting the dots; there are no opposing points of view." Review: '2016: Obama's America' more dogma than documentary - Inside Bay Area

Daily Kos: Obama’s America: 2016 Review -Want a conservative in 2012 radical Obama your best choice-my personal favorite.

LULZ....smh

I generally have avoided post too much in this thread, but I wanted to make a couple of quick points....

First off, your choices of reviews...really? "LULZ....smh"
Daily Kos for a review of a conservative documentary? Do you go to FreeRepublic or FoxNation for reviews of Michael Moore movies? Philadelphia Inquierer or Bay Area not necessarily conservative friendly either. But note...I did read the items you linked and am not making this post blind.

Also, I liked the Bay Area quote you used about no opposing points of view. That review even references Michael Moore. Any time Moore includes any opposing viewpoint in his films (when there is one) it is framed in the worst possible light, thus his inclusion of it is probably worse than not referencing it. Also, that same review talks about "But Moore's work and the genre itself come with an implicit understanding that whatever truths emerge, they were ultimately forged by the process, not set in stone beforehand.."...really? Anyone from either side of the aisle think Moore went into any of his films with an objective point of view and his particular viewpoint just emerged based on discovery and he had no viewpoint he was looking to build up or tear down in the process?

And the philly comment you quoted is the last line of the review and the guy does not point to what is fallacious at all.

I have not seen the film, I do not intend to see the film (so I don't know if its "good" or "bad" or anywhere in between), I admit I am a Republican and have had my problems with the way Obama has done things and will probably vote for Romney...I say this to qualify my comments and what view they come from. Admittedly not objective...not many are on this topic at this point in the election cycle.

I will say that I do not think this film will change an Obama voter's mind. They will probably just get angry or roll their eyes the same way many Republicans respond to Michael Moore films. It probably will only fire up people who would vote for Romney anyway. Not sure how it would affect someone who is really an undecided (although there seem to be fewer of those around so far this year), but my guess is they would not go see it to help them make a decision. They will see it as I think most people do, a film that looks to back a certian view.

I am not trying to start a fight or demean you, just wanted to comment on the particular reviews used in this case. (FYI...I don't expect good treatment for Obama on a site like freerepublic for his books either #Realist)
 

NDFan4Life

Forum Regular
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
254
Two words:

Term Limits

I'm so sick of the career politicians on both sides of the aisle. None of them work for the people any more. All they're interested in is what they can get for themselves. The president is limited to only two terms. Why not congress?
 

95NDAlumNM

Banned
Messages
514
Reaction score
45
Two words:

Term Limits

I'm so sick of the career politicians on both sides of the aisle. None of them work for the people any more. All they're interested in is what they can get for themselves. The president is limited to only two terms. Why not congress?

+1
 

irishog77

NOT SINBAD's NEPHEW
Messages
7,441
Reaction score
2,206
Two words:

Term Limits

I'm so sick of the career politicians on both sides of the aisle. None of them work for the people any more. All they're interested in is what they can get for themselves. The president is limited to only two terms. Why not congress?

The capitalist in me dislikes a salary cap in professional sports...in theory. But it's tough to argue the results and the product of the NFL.

The mention of term limits (in theory) for congress makes me automatically think "No. There's something very un-American about telling me I can't vote for who I want to vote for." But Washington and congress are CLEARLY BROKEN. Limiting how long somebody can play the game there is something I could probably get behind and support.
 

NDFan4Life

Forum Regular
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
254
The capitalist in me dislikes a salary cap in professional sports...in theory. But it's tough to argue the results and the product of the NFL.

The mention of term limits (in theory) for congress makes me automatically think "No. There's something very un-American about telling me I can't vote for who I want to vote for." But Washington and congress are CLEARLY BROKEN. Limiting how long somebody can play the game there is something I could probably get behind and support.

There's all sorts of ideas concerning term limits. I haven't done too much research on any of them though.
 

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,146
Reaction score
3,979
Term limits have not done much in California other than term out effective and or popular legislators. I agree with Cakalacky (sp?) that the only solution to whats going on right now is to limit the ammount of money allowed into campaigning and or lobbying. Unfortunately a certain segment of the political establishment and members of the judiciary seem to think money equates to speech.
 

Irish Houstonian

New member
Messages
2,722
Reaction score
301
The scapel and surgery technique used to balance the budget under Clinton...

That was called the Line Item Veto and was ruled unconstitutional by the Supremes. Was great a cutting spending though.

I think most people liked it -- but under Article I (and Article II) the President isn't supposed to have that sort of power over the budget.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I generally have avoided post too much in this thread, but I wanted to make a couple of quick points....

First off, your choices of reviews...really? "LULZ....smh"
Daily Kos for a review of a conservative documentary? Do you go to FreeRepublic or FoxNation for reviews of Michael Moore movies? Philadelphia Inquierer or Bay Area not necessarily conservative friendly either. But note...I did read the items you linked and am not making this post blind.

Also, I liked the Bay Area quote you used about no opposing points of view. That review even references Michael Moore. Any time Moore includes any opposing viewpoint in his films (when there is one) it is framed in the worst possible light, thus his inclusion of it is probably worse than not referencing it. Also, that same review talks about "But Moore's work and the genre itself come with an implicit understanding that whatever truths emerge, they were ultimately forged by the process, not set in stone beforehand.."...really? Anyone from either side of the aisle think Moore went into any of his films with an objective point of view and his particular viewpoint just emerged based on discovery and he had no viewpoint he was looking to build up or tear down in the process?

And the philly comment you quoted is the last line of the review and the guy does not point to what is fallacious at all.

I have not seen the film, I do not intend to see the film (so I don't know if its "good" or "bad" or anywhere in between), I admit I am a Republican and have had my problems with the way Obama has done things and will probably vote for Romney...I say this to qualify my comments and what view they come from. Admittedly not objective...not many are on this topic at this point in the election cycle.

I will say that I do not think this film will change an Obama voter's mind. They will probably just get angry or roll their eyes the same way many Republicans respond to Michael Moore films. It probably will only fire up people who would vote for Romney anyway. Not sure how it would affect someone who is really an undecided (although there seem to be fewer of those around so far this year), but my guess is they would not go see it to help them make a decision. They will see it as I think most people do, a film that looks to back a certian view.

I am not trying to start a fight or demean you, just wanted to comment on the particular reviews used in this case. (FYI...I don't expect good treatment for Obama on a site like freerepublic for his books either #Realist)

I know that was my point.... a mock review of mock reviews.... still smh, though. Oh I get it I forgot my italics. Sorry you had to waste a post on this. I agree one who sees that film will believe what they want. Its in the eye of the beholder.
 

Redbar

Well-known member
Messages
3,531
Reaction score
806
Term limits have not done much in California other than term out effective and or popular legislators. I agree with Cakalacky (sp?) that the only solution to whats going on right now is to limit the ammount of money allowed into campaigning and or lobbying. Unfortunately a certain segment of the political establishment and members of the judiciary seem to think money equates to speech.

Money allows people whose opinions are outnumbered, a fighting chance to even the playing field. It is a check on small "d" democracy, which I have heard it argued on this site, is not as important as Constitutional Liberalism and rule of law. Although they could not explain to me how you have Constitutional Liberalism and rule of law without small "d" democracy. In simpler terms there are not enough rich people to out vote a slipping middle and lower class.
Thanks Supreme Court, judicial activism at it's finest, welcome to the New United States of America.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
That was called the Line Item Veto and was ruled unconstitutional by the Supremes. Was great a cutting spending though.

I think most people liked it -- but under Article I (and Article II) the President isn't supposed to have that sort of power over the budget.

Well there goes that......
 

Domina Nostra

Well-known member
Messages
6,251
Reaction score
1,388
The problem with getting the "money out of politics" is that you often end up with a bunch of people that don't understand money in charge. Since money is pretty darn important, I am not so sure that is a better situation at all. IMO, you want people who are very familiar with the ins-and-outs of business and commerse to have a whole lot of influence.

In that sense, I don't mind lobbyists making sure that, say, timber interests are taken into account when environmental decisions are made. On the other hand, I don't mind when well-finded environmentalist groups have a voice when timber policy is set.

I think the key is transparency. I don't know how you do it, but the goal would be to ensure that all non-individual donations (from companies, industry representatives, environmental lobbyists, unions, interest groups, etc.) were fully disclosed.
 

Redbar

Well-known member
Messages
3,531
Reaction score
806
The problem with getting the "money out of politics" is that you often end up with a bunch of people that don't understand money in charge. Since money is pretty darn important, I am not so sure that is a better situation at all. IMO, you want people who are very familiar with the ins-and-outs of business and commerse to have a whole lot of influence.

In that sense, I don't mind lobbyists making sure that, say, timber interests are taken into account when environmental decisions are made. On the other hand, I don't mind when well-finded environmentalist groups have a voice when timber policy is set.

I think the key is transparency. I don't know how you do it, but the goal would be to ensure that all non-individual donations (from companies, industry representatives, environmental lobbyists, unions, interest groups, etc.) were fully disclosed.

As always Domina, you highlight some good points, transparency is key. Practically speaking I don't think you'll ever get money out of politics. I agree that lobbyist serve a critical role in representing knowledgeable interests in a process where the politician may not be up to speed. I think there is a fine line between influence and advantage. "Money interests" should influence political debate, but when they seek advantage and game the political debate that is quite another story. Maybe transparency and an intelligent electorate can man that line, right now we don't have one and I'm not sure we have the other.
 

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,146
Reaction score
3,979
But NASA's bureaucracy does exist and is inefficient, and a professor I had two years ago spoke about it in detail. NASA could run like the National Science Foundation (which as you may know handles 1/5 of college science funding)--an independent federal agency free of much of the politics.

But NASA is such a tiny, tiny part of government and I personally don't mind NASA one bit. It's not going to bother me if it stays the same way.

And I don't have any issue with funding for science and technology in our universities nor have I ever said that I have. That's one area where I disagree with Ron Paul. BUT, I think you're stance on the market is also laughable, capitalism has crushed the price equilibrium of everything product and service, and sooooo many corporations push D&R further and further. I think whatever works, works, and I don't have a side in private or public-private partnerships.

Buster, most large bureaucracies (corporate or public) have innate levels of inefficiency. I really don' think the National Science Foundation comparison is a good one. It appears that the NSF is mostly a research and development group where as NASA actually implements projects on the ground. Given the level of unknowns in space exploration there are bound the be inefficiencies. If one looks at the cost overruns on Defense Department contracts that are subed out I doubt contracting this work out would save any money. Anyhow, back to what does the government do well question. Apparently it lands devices on far away planets pretty well, because the thing is there and it is working like it was supposed to and nobody else has ever done it. That whole argument seemed to be all about semantics.

On the bolded part think you missed the point. I was not making the point that the public sector is better at putting a touch screen on a phone for consumers. That is to say the public sector is pretty good at developing base theories and base technology (jet propulsion, space craft, gps, the internet and so on and so forth) that the market can then pick up on and apply for consumption. On that point it's great that you do not have an issue with funding the sciences, public education and the like. The GOP on the other hand does and is quite rabid about it.

7 great government-backed inventions - The Wii (1) - CNNMoney

Why The Government Needs To Invest In Innovation - Forbes

As for the last piece of legislation that received bi-partisan support and was a "home run" I would again point to the case of acid rain. The States completely blew it the Fed stepped in and hammered out a solution based on science and the problem was solved. Too bad the GOP and by extension Mitt Romney have their heads up their collective back sides on the issue of climate change and the fact that carbon trading (a Republican idea by the way) could do wonders to mitigate the effects. Finally, if everyone thinks you can neatly compartmentalize the "economy" and "the environment" as separate issues you are mistaken. Hurricane Katrina and the current drought in much of the country would be a good examples of how one effects the other and vise versa.
 
Last edited:
Top