Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Polish Leppy 22

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NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News

Turns out that Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who Fox News gushed over as an American who taking a stand against big government, does not recognize the existence of the United States government and is an unapologetic racist who things black people were better off in bondage. Good to know that there are gun-toating morons who will line up to stand behind such a guy if there is the possibility that they can finally get in a gun fight with federal officers.

note: anyone who wants to give me grief about this post, please address your wrath at my wife and daughters as I am going to hide behind them if this argument heats up. I hear that is the manly thing to do.

There is no defending what Bundy said so I'm not volunteering for that. Let's put the situation in perspective:

Bundy committed what's equivalent to a federal parking ticket with his cattle on federal land. OK, fine the guy. Make him pay what he is supposed to pay. But surrounding his ranch with armed argents? Really? While we have how many people illegally entering the country every day?
 

Wild Bill

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Since we where talking about voting I figure I share this shit that Heritage and some these think tanks believe in. Probably the most influential guy in the whole Reagan Revolution talking right here:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8GBAsFwPglw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At least he acknowledges the truth of the matter. I'll give him credit for that. I think what he says is extraordinarily unAmerican, but at least he's honest about it. That isn't the case today, when many consiervatives claim the reason they want to limit voting is to eliminate voter fraud, which doesn't exist in any significant way anywhere in the country. Hiding behind fake outrage of a nonexistent problem is what gives it difficult for the modern GOP to get a foothold in national elections. They are already starting from a baseline of intolerence and elitism (see above video) but lying about it to cover their tracks just makes it worse.

How would a photo ID requirement restrict anyone? Should my vote, your vote, or any other honest American's vote be diminished by fraud because people shouldn't be troubled to present proper identification?
 

GoIrish41

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The fines are a result of Bundy grazing his 900 cattle on 600,000 acres of bureau-managed public lands since 1993 without a permit. He’s ignored his fees, fines, permits and multiple court orders. He owes in excess of $1 million to the federal government (which he does not acknowledge exists). That is one hell of a parking ticket. He didn't just park illegally once and blow off a ticket. He "parked illegally" every day for 20 years and ignored the authority of the government to enforce the laws. Worse, when the government threatened to take his cattle away from him, he recruited a group of armed idiots to stand with him, and then wrote a letter to Nevada law enforcement officials claiming to have an Army who was ready to defend him. Television reporters interviewed some of those supporters who were on site suggesting that they would put their women "on the front lines" of the growing conflict (which Bundy himself tried to start) so that government agents would be caught on camera killing women.

Point is, the government gave this guy 20 years to make things right, and he thumbed his nose at them. He tried to create an armed standoff against the government.

People entering the country illegally (again, a country that this idiot does not acknowledge exists) has absolutley zero to do with what is going on in Nevada. Please don't try to bring that into this discussion.
 

ACamp1900

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How would a photo ID requirement restrict anyone? Should my vote, your vote, or any other honest American's vote be diminished by fraud because people shouldn't be troubled to present proper identification?

You are forgetting, there is no fraud... just like any government program, it's super-efficient and fraud free........



...


you're just racist.
 

GoIrish41

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How would a photo ID requirement restrict anyone? Should my vote, your vote, or any other honest American's vote be diminished by fraud because people shouldn't be troubled to present proper identification?

Where are these cases of in-person voter fraud that would be eliminated by requiring a voter ID? The suggestion is to create a law that is aimed at fixing a problem that simply doesn't exist. Why go through the expense and hassle of adding an additional burden to voting? The Republicans go on and on about how big government is ruining this country. This law is big government and blantant waste. So, perhaps you should ask yourself why the party that is supposedly against that sort of thing is so adament in forcing this upon the American public.
 

GoIrish41

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You are forgetting, there is no fraud... just like any government program, it's super-efficient and fraud free........



...


you're just racist.

you can make the suggestion that there is fraud I guess, but there should be some proof no? Especially the type of fraud that would be fixed by requiring a person to show an ID to vote -- that would be people showing up and claiming to be someone they are not in order to cast a vote. Give me some examples where that has actually happened.
 

chicago51

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How would a photo ID requirement restrict anyone? Should my vote, your vote, or any other honest American's vote be diminished by fraud because people shouldn't be troubled to present proper identification?

I get the logic with the photo IDs even though is the evidence suggest it will restrict voting more than preventing voter fraud, but yes I agree with the logic. I would tend to buy the photo ID arguement if that is all that occurred.

But then there is all this other stuff that goes on. We have understaffed/underequiped polling places in urban areas in some states, too few polling places in urban areas of some states, and the cancellation of early voting in some states.

Care to explain how not having an extra voting machine or two in polling place that serves a large population is gonna prevent voter fraud?

As I said prior cancelling early voting does nothing to prevent voter fraud all it does it makes it harder for a working parent(s) who can't get off work or find someone to take of their children to vote.

Then there is this shit snopes.com: Restrooms Closed at Florida Polling Places?. The Florida secretary of states office has the balls to blame it on the Americans with Dissabilities Act. By saying that since their bathrooms are not equiped for disabled individuals instead of equiping their bathrooms for handicap access they are going to screw everyone by not having bathrooms for anyone, as to not discriminate against the disabled. This being one of the most heavily used polling places in the state with long lines being the norm.
 
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IrishLax

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you can make the suggestion that there is fraud I guess, but there should be some proof no? Especially the type of fraud that would be fixed by requiring a person to show an ID to vote -- that would be people showing up and claiming to be someone they are not in order to cast a vote. Give me some examples where that has actually happened.

This is really the crux of it. There just isn't any evidence whatsoever to show that in person voter fraud is a big deal, or has ever affected the results of an election. Or that it is something that frequently occurs, and could even hypothetically have a significant impact.

Absentee or other types of mass ballot-stacking voter fraud is a different story, which is why corrupt politicians often try it, and why they often get busted for it. Discussion of addressing that type of fraud at least has some merit.

As someone who tends towards Libertarian in the sense that I dislike all unnecessary and frivolous rules... pursuing aggressive legislation to address a "problem" like in person voter fraud just seems like a giant waste of time and resources. At least that's how I see it.
 

chicago51

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Why the right should care about net neutraility:

The conservative case for Net neutrality | The Industry Standard - InfoWorld

The conservative case for Net neutrality

Letting the big ISPs impose discriminatory pricing would stifle innovation, cripple content providers, and ultimately damage the broader economy

By Bill Snyder | InfoWorld

Hey there, conservatives: Net neutrality is your issue, too.

Innovation, economic growth, and the health of content providers are what's at stake as the FCC moves toward a new set of rules governing the Internet. Until now, much of the discussion about the future of the Internet has focused on issues like freedom of expression, fairness, and metered pricing -- real concerns, to be sure. But a pair of academic research papers circulated by the Open Internet Coalition puts the issue in economic perspective.

Here's the core of the argument, in a paper by Inimai M. Chettiar and J. Scott Holladay of New York University's Institute for Policy Integrity:

Without Net neutrality rules, new technologies could lead to pricing practices that transfer wealth from content providers to ISPs, a form of price discrimination that would reduce the return on investment for Internet content -- meaning Web site owners, bloggers, newspapers, and businesses would have less incentive to expand their sites and applications.

What's more, developers and IT as a whole will be hurt if providers are allowed to discriminate against particular applications that might make money for someone else.

The Net neutrality issue is sometimes framed by the usual left/right split in American public life. But I'd argue that conservatives who believe in a free market should join libertarians -- and, yes, liberals -- in the fight for an open Net.

What a neutral Internet really means
Here's how the Internet works today: "Last-mile facilities-based broadband Internet access service providers provide users with access to the Internet, but they are expected to route all traffic in a nondiscriminatory manner. They do not charge Internet content or application providers to reach users, and they are expected to route traffic without regard to what that traffic contains, who it is from, or where it is going," writes Christiaan Hogendorn, a Wesleyan University economist.

To date, those principles have worked really well. The Internet has for years arguably been the most efficient engine of economic growth and job creation in the American economy. But it won't function nearly as well if the market is rigged by ISPs.

The argument about Net neutrality has been clouded by understandable confusion about what it really means -- and what it doesn't mean.

Many people think the issue has to do with metered broadband access -- that is, paying for data access by the gigabyte instead of a flat monthly rate. That's something that many of us might object to, but for better or worse, it's a choice the carriers may well make. The truth is, the issue of metering has nothing to do with neutrality. And frankly, the market will decide if metered pricing is a viable idea.

The real issues are more subtle. Without Net neutrality, say the researchers, "ISPs could charge content providers again when users access content. Adding these fees would increase the costs of creating Web sites and applications."

Providers don't talk about that directly. Instead they talk about "fast lanes" to the Internet. After all, why shouldn't a company that wants its customers to have faster access pay more? Well, this argument sounds reasonable at first, but think about the implications: If there's a fast lane, there has to be a slow lane. And companies stuck in that slow lane -- likely to include competitors to the providers and to the providers' business partners -- are going to lose business.

Should ISPs decide which technologies will prosper?
The second key issue is about the right of users to access applications of their choosing, and the right of developers to compete on an open playing field. Or as FCC chairman Julius Genachowski said as the commission discussed the issue this week: "Specifically, this proceeding is about preserving consumers' freedom to access lawful content and applications of their choosing over the Internet; produce and distribute content; and innovate without permission to create new businesses, services, and opportunities that no one has dreamed of yet."

The providers deliberately obfuscate the issue, by talking about "bandwidth hogs" who download too much video and play too many online games. Why shouldn't they charge video or game providers extra, since their users are clogging up the pipes?

Again, that issue can be solved by metered pricing. But once the principle has been established that an ISP can discriminate (in the economic sense) against a particular application or technology, the market isn't free to pick winning technologies.

There's no telling where the next best idea will come from. It could well be a small company we've never heard of, but if those innovators face a discriminatory pricing wall, their ideas will never get off the ground.

The ISPs argue that additional revenue raised by new pricing schemes would allow them to spend more on badly needed infrastructure. Don't believe it. "Most additional revenue generated for ISPs is likely to be transferred to their shareholders rather than invested in expanding broadband lines," say the NYU researchers.

I want to close this by appealing to conservatives: If you believe in the free market and the ability of the Internet to drive innovation and create jobs and real economic growth, tell the FCC that you support Net neutrality.

I welcome your comments, tips, and suggestions. Post them here so all our readers can share them, or reach me at bill.snyder@sbcglobal.net.

This article, "The conservative case for Net neutrality," was originally published at InfoWorld.com. Follow the latest developments on Net neutrality at InfoWorld.com.
 

connor_in

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The only thing I will say on the Bundy situation is this...

If you support someone on a single point does that mean that you are then supporting that same person on everything they ever do and say? In press reports I have seen the gotcha aspect of this being played up. "Ha! This guy is racist so all of you guys who supported him are racist too...just like we always say!"

However, following this logic get people into real trouble on both sides of the aisle. For example, do Bill Clinton supporters thus endorse cheating on spouses and workplace sexual harassment? Ted Kennedy & Newt Gingrich supporters, same thing and in Teddy's case support drinking too much and killing women? Leland Yee supporters support gun running? Catholic church supporters support child molestation?

The answer to all of this is NO!

Please resume..thank you and good night
 
B

Buster Bluth

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It angers me that, according to that article, the reason a conservative should be for net neutrality is because it's good for business. What in the fuck.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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The only thing I will say on the Bundy situation is this...

If you support someone on a single point does that mean that you are then supporting that same person on everything they ever do and say? In press reports I have seen the gotcha aspect of this being played up. "Ha! This guy is racist so all of you guys who supported him are racist too...just like we always say!"

However, following this logic get people into real trouble on both sides of the aisle. For example, do Bill Clinton supporters thus endorse cheating on spouses and workplace sexual harassment? Ted Kennedy & Newt Gingrich supporters, same thing and in Teddy's case support drinking too much and killing women? Leland Yee supporters support gun running? Catholic church supporters support child molestation?

The answer to all of this is NO!

Please resume..thank you and good night

Example 173737: Quoting Karl Marx and literally being an ardent follower of Communism.
 

EddytoNow

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The fines are a result of Bundy grazing his 900 cattle on 600,000 acres of bureau-managed public lands since 1993 without a permit. He’s ignored his fees, fines, permits and multiple court orders. He owes in excess of $1 million to the federal government (which he does not acknowledge exists). That is one hell of a parking ticket. He didn't just park illegally once and blow off a ticket. He "parked illegally" every day for 20 years and ignored the authority of the government to enforce the laws. Worse, when the government threatened to take his cattle away from him, he recruited a group of armed idiots to stand with him, and then wrote a letter to Nevada law enforcement officials claiming to have an Army who was ready to defend him. Television reporters interviewed some of those supporters who were on site suggesting that they would put their women "on the front lines" of the growing conflict (which Bundy himself tried to start) so that government agents would be caught on camera killing women.

Point is, the government gave this guy 20 years to make things right, and he thumbed his nose at them. He tried to create an armed standoff against the government.

People entering the country illegally (again, a country that this idiot does not acknowledge exists) has absolutley zero to do with what is going on in Nevada. Please don't try to bring that into this discussion.

Although the majority of Republicans are not racists, the party depends upon the Bundy's of this country to win elections. They can't and won't distance themselves from someone like Bundy until he blatantly reveals his racism with comments like those he recently made to the media. The Republican party depends upon this voting block and actively encourages racism with policies blaming minorities and immigrant groups for all of America's ills.
 

Whiskeyjack

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It angers me that, according to that article, the reason a conservative should be for net neutrality is because it's good for business. What in the fuck.

Appeals to free-market morality are very persuasive on the right these days. What's good for the market is good for the soul!
 

Polish Leppy 22

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The fines are a result of Bundy grazing his 900 cattle on 600,000 acres of bureau-managed public lands since 1993 without a permit. He’s ignored his fees, fines, permits and multiple court orders. He owes in excess of $1 million to the federal government (which he does not acknowledge exists). That is one hell of a parking ticket. He didn't just park illegally once and blow off a ticket. He "parked illegally" every day for 20 years and ignored the authority of the government to enforce the laws. Worse, when the government threatened to take his cattle away from him, he recruited a group of armed idiots to stand with him, and then wrote a letter to Nevada law enforcement officials claiming to have an Army who was ready to defend him. Television reporters interviewed some of those supporters who were on site suggesting that they would put their women "on the front lines" of the growing conflict (which Bundy himself tried to start) so that government agents would be caught on camera killing women.

Point is, the government gave this guy 20 years to make things right, and he thumbed his nose at them. He tried to create an armed standoff against the government.

People entering the country illegally (again, a country that this idiot does not acknowledge exists) has absolutley zero to do with what is going on in Nevada. Please don't try to bring that into this discussion.

I'm not defending the guy. I am criticizing the admin's priorities when it comes to "the rule of law", that phrase they love to coin in the past 5 years.

Sit back and think about it. The feds sent in armed agents because a cattle rancher didn't pay fees for his cattle grazing on federal land. 11 million or more illegal immigrants? Wheeeeeee...come on down! Amnesty. Sign em up. Make sure they vote Democrat.

Fine him, take him to court, whatever...treat him like you would any other business who isn't playing by the rules. Riddle me this Mr. Social Justice...what if those federal agents did the same thing in surrounding a house/ apartment of illegal immigrants who were being deported? Would you be OK with that?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Although the majority of Republicans are not racists, the party depends upon the Bundy's of this country to win elections. They can't and won't distance themselves from someone like Bundy until he blatantly reveals his racism with comments like those he recently made to the media. The Republican party depends upon this voting block and actively encourages racism with policies blaming minorities and immigrant groups for all of America's ills.


With that principle you should have more beef with Harry Reid than most Republicans.

Harry Reid 'Negro' Comment: Reid Apologizes For 'No Negro Dialect' Comment
 

chicago51

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It angers me that, according to that article, the reason a conservative should be for net neutrality is because it's good for business. What in the fuck.

I'm confused with your point.

Are you saying net neutrality is bad for business particularly small business? Or that pay to play type of internet access would somehow be better for business?

Or are you saying that just because something is good for business that doesn't necessarily mean a conservative should be for it?
 

Whiskeyjack

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I'm confused with your point.

Are you saying net neutrality is bad for business particularly small business? Or that pay to play type of internet access would somehow be better for business?

Or are you saying that just because something is good for business that doesn't necessarily mean a conservative should be for it?

I'm pretty sure that was Buster's point.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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I'm confused with your point.

Are you saying net neutrality is bad for business particularly small business? Or that pay to play type of internet access would somehow be better for business?

Or are you saying that just because something is good for business that doesn't necessarily mean a conservative should be for it?

Freedom and Liberty > Business.

It just doesn't need to enter into the conversation at all, if people actually could use their brains.

The fact that people aren't 100% against this is disgraceful. The people who are constructing this are a prime example of modern 1st-world evil.

What if a phone company could decide who you could and could not call? This is the exact same thing.
 

EddytoNow

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Reid was forced to quickly retract his words, words which, while certainly not acceptable, are not nearly as blatantly racist as Bundy's comments that blacks were better off when they were slaves. So if you were looking for me to defend Harry Reid, you will have to keep looking. I'm no fan of Harry Reid.
 

chicago51

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I'm pretty sure that was Buster's point.

I guess everyone including myself needs to get away from the labeling and definitions of these terms like "right", "left", "liberal", "conservative" because they mean different definitions to different people.

I would assume you a self proclaimed "self proclaimed conservative concerned about the decline of community in the US" would mostly likely define "conservative" differently and value things differently in some respects than a Fox News shill would.
 

chicago51

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I also wanted to add I find Obama's action absolutely appalling.

How can you campaign on protecting net neutrality? How can you say this past January that net neutrality was very important for civil liberties, fair competition, and a functional democracy? Yet the guy you picked to run the Federal Communications Commission was a lobbyist for the freaking telecom industry who want to dismantle it!

I guess the answer is because he is a damn corporatist politician.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I would assume you a self proclaimed "conservative concerned about the decline of community in the US" would mostly likely define "conservative" differently and value things differently in some respects than a Fox News shill would.

"Conservatism" in American right now is a far cry from what it meant when Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk articulated it as a political disposition. We can probably thank William F. Buckley and Irving (father of Bill) Kristol for that.

The GOP essentially advocates for neo-liberalism with a sprinkling of incoherent social conservatism (though they're quickly moving away from that to maintain electoral competitiveness). The Democrats support a more coherent liberalism-- both economic and social. Point being, both parties are politically liberal.

I'm not a liberal; I think the primacy that it grants to the "autonomous individual" is misguided and has done serious violence to our culture and humanity's capacity for transmitting virtue from one generation to the next. I favor a broadly libertarian framework at the national level (big fan of Federalism), but at the local level I advocate for communitarian policies and distributist economics. Whether one is a wage slave to a company like Wal-Mart or a ward of the State living off a Basic Income and universal healthcare, neither option results in a dignified human existence.

But those are the only two options on the table right now.
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News

Turns out that Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher who Fox News gushed over as an American who taking a stand against big government, does not recognize the existence of the United States government and is an unapologetic racist who things black people were better off in bondage. Good to know that there are gun-toating morons who will line up to stand behind such a guy if there is the possibility that they can finally get in a gun fight with federal officers.

note: anyone who wants to give me grief about this post, please address your wrath at my wife and daughters as I am going to hide behind them if this argument heats up. I hear that is the manly thing to do.

Sometimes things just aren't what you want them to be...

Black Bundy Bodyguard: He's Not A Racist; "I'd Take A Bullet For That Man" | Video | RealClearPolitics
 

EddytoNow

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I may be mistaken, but the bodyguard appears to be someone who showed up to defend Mr,. Bundy after the fact, not someone who has spent much time with Bundy. Did Bundy need a bodyguard before his conflict with the federal government? Bundy and the "bodyguard" share a cause - fear of the federal government. I doubt the bodyguard even knew Bundy before the past week or two, and is he in a real position to judge Bundy's character beyond this incident. When the "bodyguard" moves in next to Bundy with his family and friends, the public will be in a better position to judge Bundy's racism or lack thereof. Until then we will have to judge Bundy by his own words, words which were racist enough to scare off Fox News.
 

Bluto

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Appeals to free-market morality are very persuasive on the right these days. What's good for the market is good for the soul!

Good post. As someone who was raised Catholic this type of false idolization has driven me crazy for a long time. How an amoral economic system can be equated with piety, holiness, ect... is one of the craziest philosophical games of twister ever.
 

Bluto

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"Conservatism" in American right now is a far cry from what it meant when Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk articulated it as a political disposition. We can probably thank William F. Buckley and Irving (father of Bill) Kristol for that.

The GOP essentially advocates for neo-liberalism with a sprinkling of incoherent social conservatism (though they're quickly moving away from that to maintain electoral competitiveness). The Democrats support a more coherent liberalism-- both economic and social. Point being, both parties are politically liberal.

I'm not a liberal; I think the primacy that it grants to the "autonomous individual" is misguided and has done serious violence to our culture and humanity's capacity for transmitting virtue from one generation to the next. I favor a broadly libertarian framework at the national level (big fan of Federalism), but at the local level I advocate for communitarian policies and distributist economics. Whether one is a wage slave to a company like Wal-Mart or a ward of the State living off a Basic Income and universal healthcare, neither option results in a dignified human existence.

But those are the only two options on the table right now.

Great post. In a lot of ways I'm pretty conservative in a classical sense. Case in point I think our mindless acceptance of neo liberalism and technology are going to be our species downfall. To me stories like the Tower of Babble and the Flight of Icarus seem pretty apropos considering how arrogant we've become as a species and the fact that our entire existence is predicated on an economy that relies entirely on extracted (ie finite) resources.
 
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