Politics

[BobD]

The website is the least of the "drama." This is only one very small piece of this $hitshow cake America's gonna eat up. The icing on the cake is that just like Medicare, Medicaid, and SS, getting rid of it or "reforming" it will be ten times harder than the implementation was. It will either be too late or impossible by the time enough people figured out what happened.

Meanwhile...

GALLUP POLL: OBAMA APPROVAL DROPS FOR THIRD STRAIGHT QUARTER

Poll: Obama Approval Drops for Third Straight Quarter

You should start a drama club.

Your first play should be "My life as a tea party propaganda puppet"

 

[connor_in]

Recall the following from Ronald Reagan's 1964 speech "A Time For Choosing"

So they're going to solve all the problems of human misery through government and government planning. Well, now, if government planning and welfare had the answer—and they've had almost 30 years of it—shouldn't we expect government to read the score to us once in a while? Shouldn't they be telling us about the decline each year in the number of people needing help? ..."

"But the reverse is true. Each year the need grows greater; the program grows greater." .....

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. So governments' programs, once launched, never disappear.

Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth"

 

[RallySonsOfND]

I'm trying to think of a website that hasn't had issues at one time or another. Especially sites that have never been done before. Hmmmm?

Get over it folks, they'll get it worked out.

The drama is sickening these days.

Zuckerberg ran a better website out of a dorm.

 

[Bluto]

You know what is interesting to myself, it is the fact that the GOP is now doing on a national level what they had been doing in California for the past twenty some odd years.

 

[Bluto]

Zuckerberg ran a better website out of a dorm.

Yeah but he's a democrat so in yo face!
haha. People are arguing about the healthcare websites? The one in California actually works really well even on a mobile device.

 

[connor_in]

You know what is interesting to myself, it is the fact that the GOP is now doing on a national level what they had been doing in California for the past twenty some odd years.

OMFG...WE'RE GONNA END UP LIKE CA?!?!?!?!!!!!!

 

[RallySonsOfND]

Thankful for employer coverage.

I pay $12 a month for my single person plan.

 

[Bluto]

OMFG...WE'RE GONNA END UP LIKE CA?!?!?!?!!!!!!

That's kind of the point. The budget process in Cali has been a cluster for a long time in large part due to the GOP refusing to even play ball and taking a my way or the highway stance on even considering raising revenue. Sound familiar? Now go take a look at where that has gotten them with voters in California. One can only hope it goes the same way on the national level as it would be a blessing for most States to be as dynamic and diverse economically and socially as California.

 

[phgreek]

I'm trying to think of a website that hasn't had issues at one time or another. Especially sites that have never been done before. Hmmmm?

Get over it folks, they'll get it worked out.

The drama is sickening these days.

OK...first of all...this isn't a Godaddy build your own "Website" here.

This is, for all intents and purposes...An enterprise system. The expectation is that the necessary security, load balancing, and infrastructure went into the design, and that all of that was tweeked until, at least analytically, someone could stand up and say we can build it, and the user load can be X...and here is how we manage surge, and here is how we are redundant and fail-over. If anyone did this...How is it possible that the database server was disconnected from the web server...and the user interface didn't immediately ...DO SOMETHING...the user experience continues on w/o a database...WTF?

What this situation looks like to me...well, the system functions like somebody used some development templates on a laptop with an MS access database that mostly met the data requirements...and then two weeks before go time...they tried to scale it up...now I know that can't be true...but what the system is ...well it looks closer to a rapid prototype methodology than an engineered system... and that is fail for anything other than a custom point of sale app for the local diesel mechanic.

The bigger questions are When, How Much More $$$$, and what is the functionality trade-off...

BobD...buddy, there are simply too many engineers on this board to simply dismiss the failures as typical web site stuff...they know from how it fails that it was done POORLY...expectations were managed poorly on the rollout, and the sense of urgency to fix it isn't real...anyone who knows systems rollout knows you can't have the perception of any of those things, much less all freakin three if you hope to survive...but this is gubment.

...and here we are at why many on IE see this as an example of why they fear government in their healthcare...or much of anything beyond defense.

Drama...I guess...but there is drama like the self escalation teenage girls do, where they assume someone said or did something so they hate them...

then there is Drama wherein Billions of dollars and the standard of care in our healthcare is controlled by an entity who rolled out ...whatever the fvck that thing was...

 

[connor_in]

That's kind of the point. The budget process in Cali has been a cluster for a long time in large part due to the GOP refusing to even play ball and taking a my way or the highway stance on even considering raising revenue. Sound familiar? Now go take a look at where that has gotten them with voters in California. One can only hope it goes the same way on the national level as it would be a blessing for most States to be as dynamic and diverse economically and socially as California.

R's are my way or the highway? In DC over the last couple weeks R's in the House sent option after option up the line and the Senate and the administration wouldn't look at them or negotiate...and yet they get crucified.

 

[johnnycando]

Can someone please leave the obamacare link here?

I'm gonna quit my job and live off the president.

This 4 am wake up call **** and drug tests to stay employed is for the birds.

I'm glad hard working Americans want to finance my newly pioneered way of life...

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You should start a drama club.

Your first play should be "My life as a tea party propaganda puppet"

You've got the Propagand Club. I'll start the debate club. You're invited. We'll show you how to present arguments and support them with evidence and facts, instead of regurgitating talking points from MSNBC and the drunken Chris Matthews, who called Ted Cruz racist yesterday.

 

[BobD]

OK...first of all...this isn't a Godaddy build your own "Website" here.

This is, for all intents and purposes...An enterprise system. The expectation is that the necessary security, load balancing, and infrastructure went into the design, and that all of that was tweeked until, at least analytically, someone could stand up and say we can build it, and the user load can be X...and here is how we manage surge, and here is how we are redundant and fail-over. If anyone did this...How is it possible that the database server was disconnected from the web server...and the user interface didn't immediately ...DO SOMETHING...the user experience continues on w/o a database...WTF?

What this situation looks like to me...well, the system functions like somebody used some development templates on a laptop with an MS access database that mostly met the data requirements...and then two weeks before go time...they tried to scale it up...now I know that can't be true...but what the system is ...well it looks closer to a rapid prototype methodology than an engineered system... and that is fail for anything other than a custom point of sale app for the local diesel mechanic.

The bigger questions are When, How Much More $$$$, and what is the functionality trade-off...

BobD...buddy, there are simply too many engineers on this board to simply dismiss the failures as typical web site stuff...they know from how it fails that it was done POORLY...expectations were managed poorly on the rollout, and the sense of urgency to fix it isn't real...anyone who knows systems rollout knows you can't have the perception of any of those things, much less all freakin three if you hope to survive...but this is gubment.

...and here we are at why many on IE see this as an example of why they fear government in their healthcare...or much of anything beyond defense.

Drama...I guess...but there is drama like the self escalation teenage girls do, where they assume someone said or did something so they hate them...

then there is Drama wherein Billions of dollars and the standard of care in our healthcare is controlled by an entity who rolled out ...whatever the fvck that thing was...

Does it suck that it doesn't work properly? Yes.
Is it the end of the world? No
Can it be fixed? Yes.
Will people against the ACA over dramatize this? Yes
How many board engineers does it take to figure that out?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You should start a drama club.

Your first play should be "My life as a tea party propaganda puppet"

An MSNBC panel over the weekend was LIVID at Obama for the poor execution of the website rollout. Oprah even said no to The Chosen One for appearing at the White House to sell obamacare. Are they members of this drama club too?



Oprah Winfrey gave 'unequivocal no' to selling Obamacare: report - Washington Times

 

[BobD]

You've got the Propagand Club. I'll start the debate club. You're invited. We'll show you how to present arguments and support them with evidence and facts, instead of regurgitating talking points from MSNBC and the drunken Chris Matthews, who called Ted Cruz racist yesterday.

I post my opinions, not other people's opinions. I don't have time for full fledged debates because of work. I like hearing others opinions, even if I don't agree, as long as they don't sound like puppets.

I'm not a republican or a democrat.

I try to stand for what's right, not what's easy.

People over complicate things to attempt sounding smart.

If you look back through this thread, there are two very long conversations amongst the others. One about who would be president and one about the ACA. I said I didn't think Romney had a chance in hell of winning and two, that the Republicans would end up caving in on the ACA after losing their as$. I was right both times, how have you done?

I didn't back Obama because he was a democrat, I backed him because he was the best choice. I didn't back the ACA to spite other's, I did because it's the right thing to do.

On to work, have a great day

 

[potownhero]

Does it suck that it doesn't work properly? Yes.
Is it the end of the world? No
Can it be fixed? Yes.
Will people against the ACA over dramatize this? Yes
How many board engineers does it take to figure that out?

Just like:

the DMV will be fixed
the IRS will be fixed
the US Post Office will be fixed

and on and on and on....

But those are all dramatized too, right?

If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[BobD]

Just like:

the DMV will be fixed
the IRS will be fixed
the US Post Office will be fixed

and on and on and on....

But those are all dramatized too, right?

If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

Help your state fix your DMV.

The IRS believe it or not, gets more right than wrong, but nobody talks about the good stuff. However I favor a flat tax.....Sorry IRS.

The post office is an outdated business that was once a marvel. It can be good again if we get congress out of the equation and let it run like a business, not a govt. agency.

 

[autry_denson]

Can someone please leave the obamacare link here?

I'm gonna quit my job and live off the president.

This 4 am wake up call **** and drug tests to stay employed is for the birds.

I'm glad hard working Americans want to finance my newly pioneered way of life...

I agree, let's keep the current system in place. When the uninsured go to the emergency room, it may be ridiculously inefficient and expensive but at least we taxpayers aren't paying for it right? Right?

 

[phgreek]

How many board engineers does it take to figure that out?

...a light bulb joke...good...uhm, uh, none...it won't ever work as advertised.


Seriously...You miss the point...at what cost will it be fixed...when...at what point will the government scale back its expectations to say 75% functionality at 300% cost, and tell you its all good? Is that reason for concern then, considering the scope of what is in front of this same group? Is it reasonable to, at this point, dismiss all concerns as political drama for effect?

 

[BobD]

...a light bulb joke...good...uhm, uh, none...it won't ever work as advertised.


Seriously...You miss the point...at what cost will it be fixed...when...at what point will the government scale back its expectations to say 75% functionality at 300% cost, and tell you its all good? Is that reason for concern then, considering the scope of what is in front of this same group? Is it reasonable to, at this point, dismiss all concerns as political drama for effect?

Let me guess that you favor scrubbing the whole thing?

 

[Quinntastic]

I don't want to "get sucked into" this discussion like I am prone to do with politics. BUT - I don't think anyone out there will disagree that the government is "too big", "too corrupt", "too bogged down", etc. What really upsets me about the government is that there are too few regulations on "entitlement programs" to reduce people taking advantage of the system, the congressmen and women are too influenced by lobbyists which puts them "in the pocket" of big business (instead of "in the pocket" of their constituents which is how it's supposed to be) which don't necessarily have the people's best interests at heart.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Does it suck that it doesn't work properly? Yes.
Is it the end of the world? No
Can it be fixed? Yes.
Will people against the ACA over dramatize this? Yes
How many board engineers does it take to figure that out?

They have to get it fixed, and quickly or things can really turn sour.

Realistically speaking, I think most people have to be signed up and have purchased insurance by early/mid January. So, that leaves 3 months to get this thing corrected and to allow enough time for people to sign up. Based on interviews with executives from tech companies (Cisco being one of them that I specifically remember) they don't think the fixes are that simple. As described by others in this thread, the design is flawed and it will take months to correct.

So, my question is, what happens IF the whole thing isn't fixed by the end of the year? Is the individual mandate still a go? I would imagine not, which puts a HUGE burden on insurance providers to provide all these added benefits in plans thru employers without the additional enrollment in the public marketplace. If that were to occur, anything is possible from that point on. Hence, why the President is so stout on not delaying the individual mandate.

 

[wizards8507]

They have to get it fixed, and quickly or things can really turn sour.

Realistically speaking, I think most people have to be signed up and have purchased insurance by early/mid January. So, that leaves 3 months to get this thing corrected and to allow enough time for people to sign up. Based on interviews with executives from tech companies (Cisco being one of them that I specifically remember) they don't think the fixes are that simple. As described by others in this thread, the design is flawed and it will take months to correct.

So, my question is, what happens IF the whole thing isn't fixed by the end of the year? Is the individual mandate still a go? I would imagine not, which puts a HUGE burden on insurance providers to provide all these added benefits in plans thru employers without the additional enrollment in the public marketplace. If that were to occur, anything is possible from that point on. Hence, why the President is so stout on not delaying the individual mandate.

You're wading into dangerous waters when you argue on their terms. Don't give into the premise that the only reason this thing is terrible is because its implementation was a failure. That's a Mitt Romney technocrat argument. "We'll accept big, intrusive government as long as the big, intrusive government functions smoothly." The fact is, even if it works, for the first time in history the American government is forcing people to buy a product, and that's not okay.

 

[wizards8507]

I don't want to "get sucked into" this discussion like I am prone to do with politics. BUT - I don't think anyone out there will disagree that the government is "too big", "too corrupt", "too bogged down", etc. What really upsets me about the government is that there are too few regulations on "entitlement programs" to reduce people taking advantage of the system, the congressmen and women are too influenced by lobbyists which puts them "in the pocket" of big business (instead of "in the pocket" of their constituents which is how it's supposed to be) which don't necessarily have the people's best interests at heart.

The problem there is incentive. Companies like American Express are good at detecting fraud because they NEED to be. They have financial "skin in the game" because they're the ones who get ripped off when fraud is perpetrated. When the Federal Government gets ripped off, they just roll it into the national debt which is so bogged down by "funny money" that nobody really cares. This is one of the fundamental problems when the government tries to run things. There's no profit motive so there's no reason for them to be timely or efficient.

Think about unions. When a business negotiates with a union, the workers negotiate for higher wages and better benefits, while the business negotiates for cheaper labor to increase their proft. Ultimately, the negotiation likely falls somewhere in the middle. Labor unions in a free enterprise environment can be very effective. Now flip that and consider a public union like teachers. The teachers negotiate for higher wages and better benefits, while the school committees negotiate for... what exactly? The school committees have no reason to push back, especially since they're all former teachers themselves.

 

[Quinntastic]

The problem there is incentive. Companies like American Express are good at detecting fraud because they NEED to be. They have financial "skin in the game" because they're the ones who get ripped off when fraud is perpetrated. When the Federal Government gets ripped off, they just roll it into the national debt which is so bogged down by "funny money" that nobody really cares. This is one of the fundamental problems when the government tries to run things. There's no profit motive so there's no reason for them to be timely or efficient.

Think about unions. When a business negotiates with a union, the workers negotiate for higher wages and better benefits, while the business negotiates for cheaper labor to increase their proft. Ultimately, the negotiation likely falls somewhere in the middle. Labor unions in a free enterprise environment can be very effective. Now flip that and consider a public union like teachers. The teachers negotiate for higher wages and better benefits, while the school committees negotiate for... what exactly? The school committees have no reason to push back, especially since they're all former teachers themselves.

I disagree about the teachers union. My dad was a teacher for 22 years and was the union rep as a teacher. Then he got into school administration and has been on the other side of it. Teachers negotiate for better wages and better hours for the obvious reasons. And the school administration negotiate for the "opposite" (not increasing teachers wages) because they only get a certain amount of funding and the money they save from not increasing wages goes into technology for the school, updated books, supplies, etc. If they only get a certain amount of funding and they have to pay more for the teachers, that puts less leftover for technology, supplies, benefits, playground equipment, books, food, paraprofessional staff, sports programs. And in the days of "schools of choice", schools now need to compete with neighboring schools for kids to want to come to their school (and thus, lead to more funding) and the cycle continues. The result, as you mentioned, lands somewhere in the middle.

Both sides have invested interest.

 

[wizards8507]

I disagree about the teachers union. My dad was a teacher for 22 years and was the union rep as a teacher. Then he got into school administration and has been on the other side of it. Teachers negotiate for better wages and better hours for the obvious reasons. And the school administration negotiate for the "opposite" (not increasing teachers wages) because they only get a certain amount of funding and the money they save from not increasing wages goes into technology for the school, updated books, supplies, etc. If they only get a certain amount of funding and they have to pay more for the teachers, that puts less leftover for technology, supplies, benefits, playground equipment, books, food, paraprofessional staff, sports programs. And in the days of "schools of choice", schools now need to compete with neighboring schools for kids to want to come to their school (and thus, lead to more funding) and the cycle continues. The result, as you mentioned, lands somewhere in the middle.

Both sides have invested interest.

I believe that happens some places and it sounds like at least a somewhat well-run town/district/county, but I believe what you're describing is more of the exception than the rule. I can only speak from personal experience. In my town, the school committee gave the teachers everything they wanted and had the power to bind the town into contractual agreements with no say from the town council.

Some school committees care about technology, supplies, equipment etc because they're swell people, but there's no profit in it for them. Only people with integrity in their roles as administrators will really fight for those things, and from what I've seen that's not exactly the most common thing. The profit motive applies to EVERYONE, including those with integrity and those who are just plain greedy.

 

[Quinntastic]

My dad has been Superintendent at four different school systems in four different counties/school districts/cities, and all of them were as I described. As were the school districts where I went to school (two different than the ones my dad was at, in two different cities/counties) and now the three different school districts where my son has been going to school. That's a grand total of nine different school districts spanning over all different counties throughout Michigan and Wisconsin. That doesn't even count all of the school administrators from other states and districts that I've met through my dad who have the same experience I've recounted.

Also, don't forget that "school committees" are actually the school administrators and the school board, a group of parents of children in the district, who have an invested interest in getting the best school for their kid through technology, sports, supplies, etc.

Either my family has just happened to hit the lucky jackpot of non-school corruption, or your example is actually the exception to the rule.

 

[potownhero]

I agree, let's keep the current system in place. When the uninsured go to the emergency room, it may be ridiculously inefficient and expensive but at least we taxpayers aren't paying for it right? Right?

Strawman alert!

How about some of the alternative plans including some of the market-based solutions put out there...

I'd love to hear your reason why they wouldn't work.

You're static thinking is so pathetic. Yeah, because we don't like the ACA we can only have what was in place. That sounds as moronic as the guy who thought that conservative ideas would take us back to the 1700's.

Fact is the ACA is a train wreck already - even that born-loser Gibbs is saying that head should roll.

 

[potownhero]

Help your state fix your DMV.

The IRS believe it or not, gets more right than wrong, but nobody talks about the good stuff. However I favor a flat tax.....Sorry IRS.

The post office is an outdated business that was once a marvel. It can be good again if we get congress out of the equation and let it run like a business, not a govt. agency.

Because this time it's different right?

When has a government agency ever run like it wasn't one? You are delusional. Now how about that bridge, how much would you like to offer for it?

They're still defending this train wreck...against all reality, history, and facts to the contrary! How long can one delude oneself before considered clinically ill? Looks like we found the crazy people after all!!!

Unbelievable. Seriously I'm not sure whether to laugh at you or just feel really sorry for you.

 

[irishpat183]

You should start a drama club.

Your first play should be "My life as a tea party propaganda puppet"

Get hit with facts...throw out "tea party" insult.

The new one liner of the left. Congrats. You must watch Rick Maddow